[Cosmoline]

I'm not a physics or chemistry buff, but isn't a cartridge just another form of storing energy? Given the awesome amount of energy released by even tiny cartridges, has anyone ever thought about using a similar system as a means of storing energy?

Imagine, for example, if you could transfer all the energy in a few cartridges to heat. It would be sufficient to boil water, I would expect. Or would it?

What about running machines by releasing the energy of cartridges?

Just some random thoughts.

[Morlock]

since it's a one shot deal (pun intended) it functionally a capacitor albeit one powered by chemical vice electrical energy......

[Cosmoline]

Yes, that's it. A chemical capacitor. Are there such things in use? If not, I wonder why. They've been darned useful for firearms--almost impossible to improve upon.

[No4Mk1]

If you define a battery as a medium for storing energy, then yes, you could call it that. Although your idea is interesting, the real dilema would be how to control the release of energy.

If you think about it, there are lots of different media in common use for storing energy. What makes one more useful in a given application over another is how the energy is used and the release mechanism.

With a car, the energy medium is gasoline. The mechanism for releasing that energy is an internal combustion engine. That mechanism works well in an automobile, or even in appliances as small as a weed-wacker, but isn't practical for a portable radio (for example).

A traditional DC battery is really a very inefficient medium for storing energy, but it has other factors (most notably low volatility and ease of use) that make it preferable for devices that draw relatively low levels of power.

I would suspect that for the applications in which gunpowder would be a good fuel, gasoline, propane or other hydrocarbons are already proven to be more affordable and easier to use alternatives. If you think about it, one ounce of gasoline can move my Honda Civic 1/4th of a mile, so that is a pretty good bit of energy in a very small package.

[Leatherneck]

Are there such things in use? Yup. They're called internal combustion engines, and they use the burning of petroleum fuel instead of the burning of gunpowder. :D

TC
TFL Survivor

[280PLUS]

in which i believe the equivalent energy of one stick of dynamite each is released on the power stroke of the pistons,

which is why they have the capability of firing projectiles (like blower parts) all over the track,,,

see how close i came to making this gun related? :rolleyes:

:D

[Ledbetter]

In my recollection, some prop-driven U.S. combat airplanes start their engines by ignition of a shotgun shell-like device that gets inserted into the ignition system just before engine start. The sudden gas pressure is used to turn the engine over. B-52 was one [edit:], although not prop-driven (as pointed out below).

[Cosmoline]

a fle powered by gasoline or natural gas? It would simply be a matter of increasing chamber pressure to 50,000 psi or so. That's way more than a car's piston copes with, but could it be done?

[Dave P]

Led, B52's were always jet engines. I don't think those are started with explosive charges, were they?

[Leatherneck]

Yep. The Buff had a cartridge start for its turbojet and then turbofan engines, as did many cold-war alert aircraft. More modern means include hydraulic accumulators and simple battery start systems.
TC
TFL Survivor

[Graystar]

Isn't a cartridge just a battery? No because the energy is not store within the structure of the cartridge, which is what makes a battery a battery (actually, the cells within a battery.) Otherwise, a battery would just be a container. The cartridge, like a gas tank, are just containers.

[Edward429451]

What about running machines by releasing the energy of cartridges?

You mean like those nail guns that take 22 blanks?

[Dave R]

If you could make the powder burn slow enough, and make the conversion to electricity efficient enough, your cartridge would be a fuel cell.



Looking at it from the other side, could you design a rifle-sized "rail gun" powered by a cartridge-sized capacitor?

Not being either an electical engineer or a mechanical engineer, my guess is that you could easily come up with something Barrett-sized that would give .22lr performance.

That smokeless powder has a pretty good energy density.

[George Hill]

The DNC has been using hot gasses for energy for decades.

[P12]

The DNC has been using hot gasses for energy for decades. :D

I was in a Texas roadside rest area once. Saw a placard on the wall that said:

"For a message from Congress press button below."

Below the placard was the hot air hand dryer.:evil:

[BallisticTip]

My Father a WWII Air-Force vet, told me about the use of 12ga. shells used to start engines, cant recall which planes though.

[Topgun]

That must be why they won't allow cars to hold more than 10 batteries.

;)

[Stickjockey]

One WW2 aircraft that had a cartridge-powered starting device was the F4U Corsair. It was a standby system, but it was there.

[George Hill]

Lots of aircraft (military) used a cartridge starter.

[campergeek]

You mean like those nail guns that take 22 blanks?

I thought of this too. Although I don't get to use it often, that's one of my favorite tools. Some are trigger activated - mine must be struck with a hammer. It's the perfect marriage of hand tools & firearms! :D

[Orthonym]

Saw a drawing of one of these once which used what looked like a LARGE revolver cylinder (12 holes?) shooting into a Bourdon tube which flapped the wings everytime it straightened out. Had a ratchet & pawl to rotate the cylinder. From around 1890 or so, I think. Right, Graystar! You should have seen me ask the guy at the 7-11 for voltaic cells. :evil: Their help isn't allowed to go armed:D

[Autolite]

Cartridge Actuated Devices have been around for a while. Take for instance military aircraft. Externally carried bombs, drop tanks, and ECM's are all 'launched' using electrically actuated explosive cartridges or 'carts' as they are commonly referred to as ...

[benEzra]

IIRC, USAF F-4E's (and probably all the other variants) had cartridge start capability on their J-79's. Without it, the plane would be helpless without a start cart to supply compressed air to spin up one of the turbines. The crews called it "shotgun start."

As far as boiling water with gunpowder, a .223 cartridge produces (rough ballpark guess) 5800 joules of energy when fired, of which 1750 or so actually accelerates the bullet and the rest goes into heating the barrel and case and producing the muzzle blast. (I assumed 30% overall efficiency; if it's actually lower, the 5800 J figure is also low.) Now, it takes 4.184 J to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius, so 5800 J would raise the temp of 1 kilogram of water (1 liter) by, let's see, 1.39 degrees Celsius or about 2.5 degrees Fahrenheit. So, it'd take about 50 rounds worth of powder to heat a liter of water from 30 celsius (room temp) to 100 celsius (boiling point).

Which goes to show that water can absorb a very large amount of thermal or mechanical energy without heating up much, which is (not coincidentally) why many machine guns have water-filled cooling jackets and why car radiators are filled with a water mixture instead of, say, oil.