Cho a mental defective


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Erebus
April 20, 2007, 02:34 AM
On Fox News(Greta's show) they said that Cho HAD been adjudicated a mental defective and somehow the paperwork never had gotten done to report it to the NICS system and that both of his gun purchases should have been blocked. I would assume that Greta being a lawyer knows what she is talking about when it comes to the legal stuff but I can't find any articles to confirm what was said.

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ConfuseUs
April 20, 2007, 05:02 AM
I believe you have to have been committed to a mental institution involuntarily for that rule to apply. I assume also that involuntary commitment will show up on a NICS check. Cho seems like one of those people that make everyone nervous but nobody can legally do squat about it so they just hope the meltdown doesn't occur when they are around.

thedpp
April 20, 2007, 05:15 AM
NCIS is awful ive read stories where NCIS was so lagged that people lived for 10-15 years normally buying guns from ffl till one day they were declined and than arrested because as it turns out they had a failure to appear 15 years ago.

gunsmith
April 20, 2007, 06:08 AM
I think if he had been involuntarily commited(SIC) it would have shown up.

PercyShelley
April 20, 2007, 08:52 AM
Well, it's on MSN, for whatever that's worth.

From the responses by "State Officials" it looks like someone screwed up and doesn't want to say so, or this was some sort of technicality.

Does someone more knowledgeable want to comment? This is a most interesting development.

ptmmatssc
April 20, 2007, 10:03 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18217741/site/newsweek/

I think the sticking point would be that he wasn't "committed" , he was on an outpatient status . more or less there for observation and someone decided he was okey dokey . I think this says there is more of a failure of our medical sector rather than our gun laws .


Cho was then voluntarily but briefly admitted to Carilion Saint Albans, a local psychiatric hospital doctor there reported that Cho was "depressed" but “denies suicidal ideations" and did not "acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder,” according to records obtained by the Richmond

Key word being "voluntarily" .

Chui
April 20, 2007, 10:07 AM
Cho Seung-Hui May Be 9th School Shooter Under Influence of Psychiatric Drugs
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/190407drugs.htm
Citizens Commission on Human Rights - www.cchr.org
Thursday, April 19, 2007

In the wake of yesterday's shooting rampage at Virginia Tech by gunman Cho Seung-Hui, state legislators, civic and human rights activists are asking why Congress has failed to investigate the link between psychiatric drugs and school violence, given the high rate of psychiatric drug use by the shooters. According to breaking news from investigators at Virginia Tech, Cho may have taken depression drugs—documented by the Food and Drug Administration to cause suicidal behavior, mania, psychosis, hallucinations, hostility and “homicidal ideation.” (link) If Cho Seung-Hui’s psychiatric drug use is confirmed, it would bring the total to 61 killed and 77 wounded by psychiatric drug-induced school shootings.

In September 2005, following confirmation that Red Lake Indian Reservation school shooter, Jeff Weise, was under the influence of the antidepressant Prozac, the National Foundation of Women Legislators, together with American Indian tribal leaders, called for a Congressional investigation (link) into the correlation between psychiatric drug use and school massacres. To date there has been no response to this request despite documentation that at least eight recent school shooters were under the influence of psychiatric drugs at the time of the shootings.

The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a mental health watchdog that initially discovered the psychiatric drug connection in the Columbine shootings, warns that the psycho-pharmaceutical industry will once again try to obscure the violence-inducing nature of psychiatric drugs in order to protect the billions in profit from drug sales. CCHR says that Congress must demand a full investigation into the link between senseless acts of violence and psychiatric drug use in the wake of recent FDA warnings on the documented drug risks.

In eight recent school shootings, psychiatric drugs were the common factor, in other instances, the shooter’s medical records were never made public and their psychiatric drug use remains in question.

September 28, 2006: Bailey, Colorado: Duane Morrison, 53, entered Platte Canyon High School and shot and killed one girl, and sexually assaulted 6 others. Antidepressants were found in his vehicle.

March 21, 2005: Red Lake Indian Reservation, Minnesota: 16-year-old Native American Jeff Weise was under the influence of the antidepressant Prozac when he shot and killed nine people and wounding five before committing suicide.

April 10, 2001: Wahluke, Washington: 16-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school, and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage while on a high dose of the antidepressant Effexor.

March 22, 2001: El Cajon, California: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman was on two antidepressants, Effexor and Celexa, when he opened fire at his California high school wounding five.

March 7, 2000: Williamsport, Pennsylvania: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was on the antidepressant Prozac when she blasted away at fellow students in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, wounding one.

May 20, 1999: Conyers, Georgia: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with a mix of antidepressants when he opened fire on and wounded 6 of his classmates.

April 20, 1999: Columbine, Colorado: 18-year-old Eric Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox when he and his partner Dylan Klebold killed 12 classmates and a teacher and wounded 23 others before taking their own lives in the bloodiest school massacre to date. The coroner confirmed that the antidepressant was in his system through toxicology reports while Dylan Klebold’s autopsy was never made public.

April 16, 1999: Notus, Idaho: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school narrowly missing students; he was taking a mix of antidepressants.

May 21, 1998: Springfield, Oregon: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his own parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 22. Kinkel had been on Prozac.

Read this report by CCHR to find out more about the dangerous connection between violence and psychiatric drugs.
www.cchr.org/files/14552/Violence

Chui
April 20, 2007, 10:10 AM
Does ANYONE see a trend??

Chui
April 20, 2007, 10:20 AM
Seung-Hui Cho Was a Mind Controlled Assassin
Deadly accuracy, disturbing revelations suggest outside involvement in VA Massacre, cocktail of brainwashing from Prozac, violent video games contributed to carnage
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, April 19, 2007

Seung-Hui Cho was a mind-controlled assassin, whether you believe he was under the influence of outside parties or not, the fact is that the cultural brainwashing of violent video games and psychotropic drugs directly contributed, as it does in all these cases, to the carnage at Virginia Tech on Monday morning.

Gun grabbers are already exploiting the tragedy to disarm future students from the opportunity of being able to defend themselves against deranged killers, but the media circus is completely silent when it comes to the laying blame at the feet of a deadly cocktail of mind-warping drugs and bloodthirsty shoot-em-ups.

Outside of the obvious culpability of the factors we see in every mass shooting – video games and “antidepressant” drugs, numerous red flags concerning Monday events are beginning to suggest that Cho was more than a heartbroken nutcase with an axe to grind.

Charles Mesloh, Professor of Criminology at Florida Gulf Coast University, told NBC 2 News that he was shocked Cho could have killed 32 people with two handguns absent expert training. Mesloh immediately assumed that Cho must have used a shotgun or an assault rifle.

“I’m dumbfounded by the number of people he managed to kill with these weapons,” said Mesloh, “The only thing I can figure is that he got close to them and he simply executed them.”

Mesloh said the killer performed like a trained professional, “He had a 60% fatality rate with handguns – that’s unheard of given 9 millimeters don’t kill people instantly,” said Mesloh, stating that the handguns Cho used were designed for “plinking at cans,” not executing human beings.

Cho was certainly no slouch, in the two hour gap between the first reported shootings and the wider rampage that would occur later in the morning, during which time the University completely failed to warn the students despite having loudspeakers stationed throughout the campus, Cho had time to film a confession video, transfer it to his computer, burn it onto a DVD, package it up, travel to the post office, post the package, and travel back to his dorm room to retrieve his guns and then travel back to the opposite end of the campus to resume the killing spree. The almost inconceivable speed of Cho’s actions become more suspicious when we recall initial reports that there were two shooters.

Even if we rule out the fact that Cho had received expert firearms training, the cultural mind control of violent video games and mind-altering psychotropic drugs were themselves a cocktail of brainwashing that directly contributed to the carnage, as they do in nearly all these cases.

From the very first reports of the shootings we predicted the killer would be on Prozac, would have recently been in psychiatric care and would have regularly played violent video games and that has precisely turned out to be accurate in all three instances.

“Several Korean youths who knew Cho Seung Hui from his high school days said he was a fan of violent video games, particularly a game called “Counterstrike,” a hugely popular online game in which players join terrorism or counterterrorism groups and try to shoot each other using all types of guns,” reports Newsmax citing the Washington Post.

“In December 2005 – more than a year before Monday’s mass shootings – a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others.” That was the necessary criterion for a detention order, so that Cho, who had been accused of stalking by two female schoolmates, could be evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care,” reports ABC News, “but despite the court identifying the future killer as a risk, they let him go.

Investigators believe that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech murderer, had been taking anti-depressant medication at some point before the shootings, according to The Chicago Tribune.

Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates, were all on psychotropic drugs. Scientific studies proving that Prozac encourages suicidal tendencies in young people are voluminous and span back nearly a decade.

Jeff Weise, the Red Lake High School killer was on Prozac, “Unabomber” Ted Kaczinski, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer, were all on SSRI psychotropic drugs.

Since these deadly drugs are prevalent in almost all mass shooting incidents, where is the call to ban Prozac? Why is the knee-jerk reaction always to attack the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans to self-defense, a right that was exercised in January 2002 when students subdued a shooter at another Virginia university before he could kill more than three people because they were allowed guns on campus?

Why are the deeper reasons behind what motivates young men to kill pushed aside while control freaks demand that law-abiding citizens be disarmed of the only thing that can protect them from such madmen?

Questions about the sequence of events on Monday, VA Tech, as well as the profile of the killer are arousing increased suspicion.

We have been receiving numerous calls and e mails alerting us to the fact that VA Tech is pulling links from its website concerning their relationship with the CIA. Reports from November 2005 confirm that the CIA was active in operating recruitment programs based out of VA Tech. Several professors from VA Tech are involved in government programs linked with NASA and other agencies.

Wikipedia also pulled a bizarre recently taken photograph of Cho wearing a U.S. Marines uniform.

Such details only fan the flames of accusations that Cho could have been a Manchurian Candidate, a mind-controlled assassin.

The CIA’s program to create mind-controlled assassins that could be triggered by code words, MK ULTRA, is not a conspiracy theory, it’s a historical fact documented by declassified government files and Senate hearings. President Bill Clinton himself had to apologize for the program before he left office.

On the Senate floor in 1977, Senator Ted Kennedy said, “The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over thirty universities and institutions were involved in an ‘extensive testing and experimentation’ program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens ‘at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign.”

One such victim of these experiments was Cathy O’Brien, who immediately after the shootings re-iterated the revelations in her latest book, that Blacksburg Virginia is a central location for mind control programs that are still ongoing today.

CIA mind control programs can be tracked back to the 1950’s and Project BLUEBIRD, later renamed ARTICHOKE. From blogger Kurt Nimmo;
“BLUEBIRD was approved by the CIA director on April 20, 1950. In August 1951, the Project was renamed ARTICHOKE. BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE included a great deal of work on the creation of amnesia, hypnotic couriers, and the Manchurian Candidate,” writes Colin A. Ross, MD. “ARTICHOKE documents prove that hypnotic couriers functioned effectively in real-life simulations conducted by the CIA in the early 1950’s. The degree to which such individuals were used in actual operations is still classified… BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE were administered in a compartmented fashion. The details of the programs were kept secret even form other personnel within the CIA… The BLUEBIRD/ARTICHOKE materials establish conclusively that full Manchurian Candidates were created and tested successfully by physicians with TOP SECRET clearance from the CIA. As well as being potential couriers and infiltration agents, the subjects could function in effect as hypnotically controlled cameras. They could enter a room or building, memorize materials quickly, leave the building, and then be amnesic for the entire episode. The memorized material could then be retrieved by a handler using a previously implanted code or signal, without the amnesia being disturbed. Hypnosis was not the mind control doctors’ only method for creation of controlled amnesia, however. Drugs, magnetic fields, sound waves, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, and many other methods were studied under BLUEBIRD and ARTHICHOKE.”

Researchers into supposed “lone nut” assassinations time and time again run across evidence pointing to CIA mind control experimentation. The best example is Sirhan Sirhan, Bobby Kennedy’s assassin. Sirhan was found to be in a completely trance-like state after pulling the trigger and couldn’t even remember shooting Kennedy when asked about the incident days later. Sirhan’s lawyer, Lawrence Teeter, has presented convincing evidence that Sirhan was under mind control.

Either way you cut it, Seung-Hui Cho was a victim of brainwashing and mind control. The right questions are not being asked and the finger of blame is being pointed in the wrong direction, ensuring that another tragedy like the VA Tech Massacre is almost guaranteed.

Some Mind Control Technology Links

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/BraveNewWorld.html
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/BraveNewWorld2.html

http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrolinformation
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrolinformation#mindcontrolsummaries
http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg
http://www.wanttoknow.info/050331behaviormodificationtv

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/archv-hm.htm
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/links.htm

http://www.catalase.com/patent.htm

Erebus
April 20, 2007, 10:20 AM
MSNBC is now throwing around the 'loophole' term. Saying that he shouldn't have been allowed to buy firearms but his treatment wasn't reported to NICS due to the law not actually assigning responsibility to anyone specific and no one taking initiative and making sure it got done.

No one I have seen discussing it has been clear on exactly what causes causes disqualification(for lack of a better term) and how it applies in this case. However they all say that he should have been forbidden.

Thin Black Line
April 20, 2007, 10:36 AM
I think the sticking point would be that he wasn't "committed" , he was on an outpatient status . more or less there for observation and someone decided he was okey dokey . I think this says there is more of a failure of our medical sector rather than our gun laws .


Um, yeah, sorry we haven't cured cancer, heart disease, AIDS and all the
other health ills brought about by choices and human behavior. Would you
prefer the soviet style mental health system that was an actual gulag of its
own? I think not. Would you want every veteran who has ever gone to the
VA for counseling to have their 2A rights temporarily suspended?

plexreticle
April 20, 2007, 01:58 PM
People should not be discriminated against because of a medical condition. Judge them by their illegal behavior and criminal record.

The vast majority of people with mental problems are not violent.

Sage of Seattle
April 20, 2007, 02:02 PM
If video games or a combination of video games and antidepressants turned Cho into a ruthless, Terminator-esque killing machine, why haven't we started training our military and police in this way -- after all, police and soldiers are authorized by law and society to kill as efficiently as possible (in other words, minimize collateral damage).

If Prozac and pistols don't mix, what do you tell the hundreds of police currently taking Prozac or other antidepressants right now?

It's a difficult thing to accept to some, I guess, but mental illness and mass murderers are complex, not easily solvable, issues.

gm
April 20, 2007, 04:15 PM
I dont think he was insane.His actions were too planned i.e.the mailing of the videos, the chaining of the doors,purchasing the weapon months in advance.He made a plan way ahead of time and carried it out.


What I do think is he was filled with a rage that he kept within since childhood.Perhaps he was born with brain damage.I dunno but his actions seemed too well planned and his actions at the event too well executed to me.

Though I still havent figured out why he would supposedly remove the seriel numbers to the weapons while having the purchase receipt in his backpack if he planned the other events so carefully.

Whatsit
April 20, 2007, 06:38 PM
Paranoid schizophrenics can be meticulous planners. After hearing his rant, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what Cho was.

p35
April 21, 2007, 12:39 AM
Let's remember that the "Citizens Commission on Human Rights" is a front group for the Church of Scientology.

The "trend" I see is the nutjobs looking for press.

gezzer
April 21, 2007, 04:01 AM
When a non-citizen has had the problems the shooter had for more than a year he should be DEPORTED he is not a US citizen We do not need his problems. His family is here then that is their decision to leave the US with him or stay. Not our problem.

ArfinGreebly
April 21, 2007, 06:19 AM
You will note that the cases cited by CCHR are actual cases and that the facts are accurate.

It may be convenient to shrug it off because of their affiliation, but I think their point is well made: you can't dose people up with psychotropic drugs and expect great things.

I worked alongside some of their crew in Europe. Very level-headed chaps. Quite effective. And, frankly, that's all that mattered to us. We read the press attacks like everyone else. Our take: if they can get the job done and do it consistently, we'll stand by them. And we did.

gunsmith
April 21, 2007, 06:29 AM
If Prozac and pistols don't mix, what do you tell the hundreds of police currently taking Prozac or other antidepressants right now?

I think research indicates that it affects older people differently then younger, police officers tend to be over 21.

SteveS
April 21, 2007, 09:40 AM
You will note that the cases cited by CCHR are actual cases and that the facts are accurate.



Relation does not imply causation. I am sure there were many other commonalities. I need more than "they all took medication, so that must be the cause." I would hope that other people would be a little more skeptical of statements from the church of scientology on this topic, since they are very anti-medication. That is like getting gun facts from the Brady Bunch.

Art Eatman
April 21, 2007, 11:40 AM
What seems to have been the most calm and rational report about Cho and mental health and officialdom:

In December of 2005, he was sent for a 24-hour observation. He was found by doctors to be of no danger to himself or others, but it was suggested to him that he seek counselling for his depression. After his release, he did not seek counselling.

Since no court action was involved, and the doctor(s) had decided that he wasn't dangerous, that ended any official involvement with Cho. There was no legal action that anybody could have taken. The 24-hour observation period did not end his rights as a permanent-resident alien.

Art

ArfinGreebly
April 23, 2007, 06:50 PM
I would hesitate more than a few seconds before posting a declaration like I would hope that other people would be a little more skeptical of statements from [church] on this topic
One could just as easily say I would hope that other people would be a little more skeptical of statements from [atheists/religion I dislike/obscure belief/etc.] on this topic
The "foregone conclusion" that any view espoused by or endorsed by a particular group or one of their affiliates is somehow automatically wrong or suspect leads one down thinking paths whose outcomes are prejudiced by such a "they have nothing valid to say" bias.

I'm a big fan of demonstrated workability.

When I worked alongside CCHR I got to see a lot of that.

I've seen precious little of it from the psych community.

If the label is more important to you than what you can see with your eyes, your judgement will be impaired to that degree.

I'm sure there are members of this board who find themselves targeted offhand with slurs of the "everybody knows" variety.

In general, I would suggest that the addition of exotic chemistry to our pharmacies over the last century has not improved our overall quality of life and that such chemistry is largely "solutions" to problems that are actually by-products of our society itself.

It seems the more "civilized" we become, the more different kinds of "crazy" we acquire.

I would speculate that the cures will, on the whole, not be found in a pill.

There's medication, and then there's medication. If an organization is against medication of every description at all, including vaccines and pain killers and the things needed for life-giving surgery, then I'd say that's probably restrictive beyond what is healthy.

If, on the other hand, an organization is against a narrow band of medications because a) they mess with one's ability to think and b) the downstream outcome for an individual is some kind of impairment, I would think that's worthy of further examination.

Mind bending drugs are being used as "medicines" as though there was serious hard science behind them, which does not seem to be the case.

Maybe that's worth a second look.

JohnL2
April 23, 2007, 07:24 PM
as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates

You know, I watched what I believe was a Frontline documentary on Kip Kinkel.
The police interrogation after the shootings was haunting.
Kip (bawling): "I had to.(crying) I had to. Damn these voices in my head!!"
Detective: "Okay, okay, it's okay."

I've had more experience than I'd care to have with the malady. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.
And those who attach some kind of romantic suffering to it are absolute fools in the strongest sense of the word.

Cosmoline
April 23, 2007, 07:33 PM
Chui--the problem is correlation vs. causation. Most school shooters have had mental problems in the past, and continued to have them. Many, if not most, had some level of treatment and some drugs for these problems. It's possible the drugs caused them to act out, but it's more likely they acted out because they were completely crazy to begin with and the drugs didn't do enough to fix the problems.

Also, your source material is rather questionable.

p35
April 23, 2007, 07:45 PM
From looking at the documents (on thesmokinggun.com) it looks like Cho was committed and then released on a "less restrictive alternative" meaning that he didn't have to stay in the hospital if he could maintain with appropriate treatment on the outside. The problem is that someone has to follow up and make sure that the person actually gets treatment and complies with it, and it's almost unheard of for there to be adequate staff to do that. It appears no one followed up with Cho, and here we are.

pharmer
April 23, 2007, 08:20 PM
In Florida we have the Baker Act. Up to 72 hrs. involuntary and most times (about 95% of the time) afterward folks sign voluntary. No reporting of this. (You have to be truly sick and have a psychiatrist, usually your family, and a judge commit you involuntarily.) Think about whether or not a person should lose 2nd A rights for life over this. I worked at a receiving facility for 11 years. There isn't a simple solution for this except for simple minds. Joe

JohnBT
April 23, 2007, 09:31 PM
Being in Virginia and seeing numerous local reports, I'll summarize...

The best I can tell everyone is that the state (Attorney General and State Police) is saying he wasn't commited so he didn't need to be listed. The feds are saying that he was 'mentally defective' (a phrase that appears in the law along with involuntary commitment) due to the order to seek outpatient counseling and should have been listed.

Stay tuned.

John

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