Gun control: New Jersey vs. Virginia


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northjersey
April 20, 2007, 09:47 AM
I'm still trying to figure out the point of the following article.
http://northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkzJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk3MTE3ODg0JnlyaXJ5N2Y3MTdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5Mg==
Do you suppose he's arguing for more or less gun control?

Gun control: New Jersey vs. Virginia
Friday, April 20, 2007

Cho Seung-Hui used handguns he legally purchased in February and March to commit the deadliest one-man shooting rampage in U.S. history, slaying 32 people at Virginia Tech University before killing himself. More than 800 gun-related deaths occur each year in Virginia, compared with 454 in New Jersey, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.

Q. Are permits and references required to purchase guns?

In New Jersey, yes. In Virginia, no.

In New Jersey, gun buyers must first obtain either a handgun permit or firearms ID card for a long gun. New Jersey buyers must also provide references of "two reputable citizens." The entire application process ordinarily takes weeks.

Q. Are background checks required?

Yes, in both states.

Both states require buyers to pass computerized state and federal "instant" background checks, which include mental health records. As part of the process in New Jersey, the local police chief from the buyer's town of residence must approve the application. No such provision exists in Virginia. New Jersey gun buyers also must agree to let police check their psychiatric history. Cho was allowed to legally buy his weapons -- a Glock 9mm and a .22-cailber Walther -- because there was no record of him being committed to a mental institution, Virginia authorities said.

Q. Are high-capacity ammunition magazines legal?

In New Jersey, no. In Virginia, yes.

New Jersey restricts the sale of handgun magazines that can hold more than 15 rounds. Virginia does not. The two guns purchased by Cho had magazine clips with 10- and 15-round capacity.

Q. Can more than one handgun be purchased per month?

In New Jersey, yes. In Virginia, no.

Cho reportedly bought the Walther pistol on Feb. 9. More than 30 days later – on March 16 – he bought the Glock handgun. New Jersey doesn't have such a restriction, although a separate permit is required for each handgun.

-- Jason Tsai
Tsai@northjersey.com

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Titan6
April 20, 2007, 09:53 AM
He is just letting everyone know how much safer they are in the crime free utopia of NJ is all.

DogBonz
April 20, 2007, 10:04 AM
Wrong:
In New Jersey, gun buyers must first obtain either a handgun permit or firearms ID card for a long gun. New Jersey buyers must also provide references of "two reputable citizens." The entire application process ordinarily takes weeks.

You must obtain BOTH a permit AND a FID card. You can't get a pistol permit without a FID card. Now, you can apply for them at the same time. You do need two references. It takes 6-8 weeks. Usually 8 weeks to the day (if, that is, they don't "loose" your app).

Wrong Again:

Q. Are high-capacity ammunition magazines legal?
In New Jersey, no. In Virginia, yes.

First and formost "hi-capacity" is a BS term. If your gun came with a 17 round mag, then they are standard capacity. In NJ you can have up to 15 round mags. Not good at all, but better than Kilifornia.

Zero_DgZ
April 20, 2007, 10:07 AM
The entire argument is a fallacy by omitting the truth. Virginia has a much larger population than tiny little New Jersey.

flashman70
April 20, 2007, 10:14 AM
I call BS on this article - for the most part. As a Virginian, the last thing I want is to have to kiss some local sherrif's *ss to get a permit to buy a gun. There does need to be some way to get info on nuts not yet institutionalized into the system, however. Here was guy that went before a judge that found him to be a danger to himself and others, but because the judge didn't order him to be committed - only that he get treatment - there's no record in the database and he can buy guns. I do think this needs to be addressed.

DogBonz
April 20, 2007, 10:18 AM
The entire argument is a fallacy by omitting the truth. Virginia has a much larger population than tiny little New Jersey.

Actually you are incorrect:

VA: 7,567,465
NJ: 8,717,925

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html

Sorry, as much as I would like for that to be true... It just is not

romma
April 20, 2007, 10:22 AM
The moral of the story: If you live in NJ,,, Move! :)

illspirit
April 20, 2007, 10:35 AM
2005 FBI UCR (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_04.html) says

Virginia, population: 7,567,465, number of murders: 461, rate (per 100K): 6.1

New Jersey: population: 8,717,925, number of murders: 417, rate (per 100K): 4.8

As such, I'm not quite sure where the journalist got his "More than 800 gun-related deaths" number from. But judging by the homicide rate (and assuming the number isn't fabricated..), surely more then half of them are suicides, no?

Ergo, banning "high capacity" mags would make little difference, seeing as it only takes one round to off yourself. Highly restrictive permits won't affect the suicide rate, seeing as rope, razor blades, medicine, car exhaust, etc.. are plentiful. See also: Japan's high rate of suicide with virtually no guns.

Or is suicide okay with the author as long as it's not with guns? :rolleyes:

mbt2001
April 20, 2007, 10:39 AM
This article ASSUMES that Gun Regulations would have prevented the crime. I do not know how anyone can come to that assesment from the available picture of the shooter that we have. Virgina could have had a "TOTAL BAN" on handguns and I don't think that would have changed the outcome.

This event highlights the same problem that 9/11 did. .gov cannot keep anyone safe. They can't deliver on their promises. They are wasting their time regulating guns the same as they are wasting their time with MOST of the Airport Security.... But it is the illusion of safety / control that matters.

yhtomit
April 20, 2007, 10:44 AM
Unless police are also acting as judges ... I have the feeling that many (most) miscreants could find a few like-minded souls to vouch for them.

My CCW permit app required me to name other people who could vouch for me; I'm not sure if they were ever contacted (at least one I remember asking about it, and he said no one had contacted him), and the county sheriff surely doesn't know me.

I know this varies by state (or county, if applicable), but there seems to be some naive trust put into background checks. (By those who favor them, of course -- not saying that everyone is in that basket ;))

Some places, the sheriff or other relevant permit approver is no doubt a perfect prince (I had no problem with mine, other than my objection to the arrogance of requiring a permit for someone who's never show himself a danger), but in others, there is small-time, small-mind arrogance, bickering, recalcitrance, suspicion, and spite.

The idea that background checks are a cure-all is obviously weak, but are they even a cure-many?

timothy

geekWithA.45
April 20, 2007, 10:54 AM
My assessment:

Pointless article written to fill space on orders of the guy's boss.

Editor: "You! New guy! I want 600 words on the differences between NJ & VA gun laws!"

Writer: "Aye aye, captain."

illspirit
April 20, 2007, 11:15 AM
Sent him a reformatted version of my post above.

Hello Mr. Tsai,

I'm from Virginia, and in your article you stated there are "More than 800 gun-related deaths" per year here. Judging by the homicide rate, surely more then half of them are suicides, no? Especially considering @19% of homicides are committed by "other weapons," and @11% by knives.

Virginia, population: 7,567,465, number of murders: 461, rate (per 100K): 6.1

New Jersey: population: 8,717,925, number of murders: 417, rate (per 100K): 4.8

(source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_04.html, http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/RunHomOneYearofData.cfm)

Ergo, banning "high capacity" magazines would make little difference, seeing as it only takes one round to commit suicide. Highly restrictive permits won't affect the suicide rate, seeing as rope, razor blades, medicine, car exhaust, etc.. are plentiful. See also: Japan's high rate of suicide with virtually no guns.

If you wish to compare homicide rates, by all means, go right ahead. The statistics are ostensibly on your side there. However, throwing suicides into the mix is, at best, intellectually dishonest.

30 cal slob
April 20, 2007, 11:20 AM
Q: Can you get a concealed wepons permit to defend yourself?

A: In NJ, basically no unless you are retired law enforcement. In VA, yes if you meet the critera.

Big Calhoun
April 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
The moral of the story: If you live in NJ,,, Move!

That's what I did; gave a one-finger salute out of my sunroof as I paid a NJ toll for the last time. Couldn't be happier!!!

What I get from that article is that it is attempting to make a positive / negative contrast between NJ and VA laws in order to make readers feel safe and good about the oppressive laws that govern NJ and firearms.

I wouldn't call BS, but I would interject this... NJ and VA are as different as night and day. NJ has a few remaining rural areas, but nothing compared to Virginia. NJ is also more densely populated. If you want to get into the psychological aspect, densely populated areas usually lead to higher amounts of aggravation, aggression, and tension. Additionally I'd like to know the source of the numbers (454 vs 800). Reading NJ newspaper websites, I find it hard to believe NJ is only averaging around 450 firearm related deaths a year. I'd also question if there is a margin of error that could encompass unsolved deaths as well as those not reported.

Bottom line: I felt a hell of a lot safer the few times I went to Virginia than I ever did in New Jersey.

northjersey
April 20, 2007, 11:31 AM
As confused about what the purpose of the article is, I'm gonna have to go with geekWithA.45.

My thoughts:
More than 800 gun-related deaths occur each year in Virginia, compared with 454 in New Jersey, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.
So I'm guessing he's saying NJ is safer in regards to gun related deaths

Q. Are permits and references required to purchase guns?
In New Jersey, yes. In Virginia, no.
Ok, I would put this towards supporting his original statement. (Despite the fact that he's incorrect on NJ gun laws.

Q. Are background checks required?
Yes, in both states.
Ok, so VA and NJ are equal on this but...

As part of the process in New Jersey, the local police chief from the buyer's town of residence must approve the application. No such provision exists in Virginia.
Could he be implying that the local police chief would have denied his application? My own personal thoughts are that this would not have made a difference and in NJ is more to keep guns out of certain areas (like more anti-gun towns) and allow them in more conservative towns.

New Jersey gun buyers also must agree to let police check their psychiatric history. Cho was allowed to legally buy his weapons -- a Glock 9mm and a .22-cailber Walther -- because there was no record of him being committed to a mental institution, Virginia authorities said.
So this wouldn't have disqualified him in NJ either.

Q. Are high-capacity ammunition magazines legal?
In New Jersey, no. In Virginia, yes.

New Jersey restricts the sale of handgun magazines that can hold more than 15 rounds. Virginia does not. The two guns purchased by Cho had magazine clips with 10- and 15-round capacity.
So it's a moot point because 1. in this case VA has more strict laws than NJ concerning the magazines and 2. he didn't have any magazines that were illegal in either state. (Well according to this, I have read other reports claiming larger rounds but I'm not sure if they were found on him or back in his place of residence)

Q. Can more than one handgun be purchased per month?
In New Jersey, yes. In Virginia, no.

Cho reportedly bought the Walther pistol on Feb. 9. More than 30 days later – on March 16 – he bought the Glock handgun. New Jersey doesn't have such a restriction, although a separate permit is required for each handgun.
So the one gun a month plan in VA that NJ has been trying to pass did nothing to prevent this. Also as far as I know, it only takes one gun to kill someone.

And that's it for the article. Overall I see it as pointing out all the useless laws that are in place that have done nothing. The only thing that would go against this is the permit application to buy a firearm which must be approved by the local police chief, a rather small point in the entire article.

It's hard to say if this would have done anything because it didn't happen but he didn't have a criminal record or anything else. Besides, these things would have come up in the background check anyway. Part of me wants to read it as the futility of gun laws but there's no summary whatsoever and in a state that is typically anti-gun.

But I'm thinking geekWithA.45 is right, probably just an assignment, I'm just surprised it was published online.

mike101
April 20, 2007, 12:37 PM
"He is just letting everyone know how much safer they are in the crime free utopia of NJ is all."

Yes, this time of year is especially lovely in Camden, Trenton, and Newark. :D

GRIZ22
April 20, 2007, 03:24 PM
Note that this was in the "North Jersey" news. If the author feels NJ is so safe maybe he should move to Camden, highest murder rate in the country.

When Camden acquired the distinction of having the highest murder rate a liberal Democrat politician (plenty of those in NJ) tried to blame the murder rate on Camden's proximity to PA (just across the river is Philadelphia). He said that it's easy to buy guns in PA and the criminals are buying guns there. There was no one to question him as to why the murder rate in Philly is significantly lower than Camden's. Yes, Philly is a big city and has a lot of murders but they are 25 or 30 on the list.

This article is just something the liberal Democrats will show to wave around to ensure thay keep their hold on Essex, Bergen, Hudson, Union, and Passaic counties, some of the northern counties in NJ.

The guy is trying to be subtle and like so many things,not telling the whole truth.

Shovelhead
April 20, 2007, 03:40 PM
Apples and Oranges.

Compare Virginia and Washington DC.
There's only a strip of water separating them.
The Gun restrictions in each are polar opposites, and the crime rates per population are too.

Jkwas
April 20, 2007, 04:18 PM
I'm still trying to figure out the point of the following article
I'm still trying to figure out what you're doing in New Jersey! I got out, you should too, while they still allow it!

JohnBT
April 20, 2007, 06:25 PM
Better gun rights for NJ? Ha, it'll never happen. They don't trust you enough to even let you pump your own gas. What's with that? Is it an employment program for old boxers and mobsters or something?

John

Tom609
April 20, 2007, 06:46 PM
Do not shoot the messenger! Just thought you'd find it interesting...


Monica Yant Kinney | N.J. gun laws would have frustrated shooter
By Monica Yant Kinney
Phila Inquirer Columnist


There is little about life and death of which I'm certain, but after the rampage at Virginia Tech, it's safe to say Cho Seung-Hui could not have purchased his weapons of mass destruction legally in New Jersey.

There's just no way a young man as obviously troubled as Cho would have survived one of the nation's toughest and most thoughtful gun laws. That is, presuming he submitted himself to the close scrutiny.

I did, when my colleague Tom Ferrick and I set out to arm ourselves on the same day last May for a project comparing gun laws in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

After popping into Lou's Pawn Shop in Upper Darby, Tom bought two handguns in 40 minutes.

After being told all I could do was look at Ed's Gun Shop in Deptford, I spent $61 and waited eight weeks and six days just to receive my Firearms Purchaser Identification Card and handgun purchase permit.

Talk about a cooling-off period. It took half the summer for my new pals at the Haddonfield Police Department to do their duty to serve and protect.

In this state, that meant grilling friends I listed as "character references" about everything from my drinking habits to whether I am, or ever was, an anarchist.

In this state, it meant a cop dropped by my house unannounced to ask my husband if he knew of - and approved of - my quest to bear arms.

In this state, it meant investigating whether I should.

A welcome invasion

In Virginia, Cho bought murder weapons legally, needing only a credit card and three forms of ID. In New Jersey, he would have had to do a lot more than pass a quick criminal-background check.

For starters, if you can believe it, the gun-buying process here begins with getting to know a police officer.

"What person intent on mayhem would want to go to the police department?" asks Bryan Miller, of the advocacy group Ceasefire NJ.

Here, the 23-year-old Cho would have had to sign a consent form allowing police to review his medical records for mental-health treatment.

Here, officers would have talked to doctors about whether he was a potential threat to himself or others.

"If we feel someone is incompetent or incapacitated," Haddonfield Police Detective Sgt. Gary Pearce told me at the time, "we can deny."

This part of the law, Miller explains, is designed "to keep the wrong people from getting their hands on guns."

Cue the outrage from Second Amendment literalists and gun lobbyists decrying the invasion of privacy.

To this, Miller fires back, "What would you rather have: The police discovering he shouldn't have a gun, or 33 people dead because they didn't?"

Seek and ye shall find

Cho, we now know, was a deeply disturbed young man.

Roommates described a loner who rarely spoke.

Classmates recalled a student who scared them and inexplicably referred to himself as a question mark.

Professors - including the poet Nikki Giovanni - were so alarmed by the English major's morbid, violent writing that they reported him to superiors and police.

Cho, we now know, was questioned by campus cops twice in 2005 after two female students complained separately that he'd harassed them.

Hours after one of the inquiries, Cho showed suicidal tendencies and checked into a psychiatric hospital.

"So many people said he had problems. The warning signs were myriad," said Ladd Everitt, communications director at the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

"I think most Americans would agree when they read about this kid's background, there's no way he should have been sold a handgun."

But in Virginia, by law, no one had the obligation to probe Cho's past or present woes, so no one did.

"I knew when it happened that that's probably who it was," Giovanni told CNN after Cho was identified as the lone gunman in the worst shooting rampage in American history.

And yet, to a Roanoke gun shop owner, Cho was just another eager customer making a life-changing purchase in 20 minutes flat.

Titan6
April 20, 2007, 07:10 PM
She raises some good points. I see gun laws moving this way nationwide as bans have been shown not to work. Aside from the huge potential for abuse of this type system it leaves people helpless who need protection quickly.

SAG0282
April 21, 2007, 01:16 AM
As Illspirit notes, VA may have more murders but New Jersey has higher violent crime, #26 in the nation versus #35 for VA according to the DOJ.


Everyone can play the numbers game, but I'd never live in NJ for any amount of money.

45Frank
April 21, 2007, 10:37 AM
NJ is an armpit, I lived there for 40 years and saluted with a moon as I left.
Camden, Montclar, Newark, Trenton, Elizabeth what a way of life. They bost the safest town in america I lived there it's actually the drug capitol of the Jersey shore. With the gun restrictions in that state there should be no crime at right.
Ocean county screw the numbers but also has the lowest felony arrest rate in the state (around 13%)and probably the country. No arrest no crime.
Lets see in Ocean cnty retired Police officers killed how many people the last few (Toms River) years 8-10 maybe and their the olny ones allowed to carry. This rarely makes the news though.

njshooter
April 21, 2007, 05:05 PM
More than 800 gun-related deaths occur each year in Virginia, compared with 454 in New Jersey, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.

Do these numbers include dead criminals, or is this the number of victims of voilent crime + suicides ?

michaelbane
April 21, 2007, 08:47 PM
I just got back from NJ (I live right across the river in Philadelphia) after visiting my relatives for a family function. While the opportunity to visit my relatives makes it worth the trip, I always feel I have to take a shower when I get home to symbolicly wash off the filth of defenslessness.:rolleyes:

zoom6zoom
April 21, 2007, 09:00 PM
Q: Can you get a concealed wepons permit to defend yourself?

A: In NJ, basically no unless you are retired law enforcement. In VA, yes if you meet the critera.

Virginia answer should actually be, "Yes, unless you are disqualified". We are a shall-issue state.

I think the "800" is made up, too. Maybe they're lumping DC in with us.

cuervo
April 22, 2007, 10:05 AM
N.J. gun laws would have frustrated shooter

Which means he probably would have just gone to the black market and purchased things illegally and then gone on his murder spree. NJ would then blame Virginia for its slack laws which allowed guns to be smuggled up to NJ from Virginia to be put on the black market to begin with.

mountainclmbr
April 22, 2007, 08:54 PM
The leftist power bosses in the city and state governments know the numbers need to show they are effective. And they play games to make sure the statistics back them. Numerous scandals about fudging statistics in such jurisdictions. Baltimore and Boston come to mind. The FBI and CDC only report the data fed to them.

delta53
April 23, 2007, 09:33 AM
NJ total not fair you have to add at least 1 million illegal’s to garden state total

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