Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?


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mike101
April 20, 2007, 11:32 AM
I certainly think so, for the way they neglected to handle the situation at all, after the first 2 murders.

Now, we know what Cho was doing for the 2 hours between the 2 murders in the dorm, and the additional 30 murders at Norris Hall. He was off to the post office mailing his manifesto to NBC. During that time, NOTHING was done to secure the campus, and the shooter was still at large. They didn't even suspend classes for the day. If they had, there wouldn't have been anyone at Norris hall to shoot. Instead, they sent emails. I think a few cops with bullhorns might have been just a bit more effective.

Later, the college pres. and police chief were tripping over eachother, offering weak excuses to the press. The jist of these, was that the campus is too big to secure, with too many access points. Boloney. The campus is 2600 acres. Back in the early 70s, I saw local cops in South Jersey throw a blockade around the entire city of Camden, NJ, do to rioting in the city. Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres. My buddies and I spent the rest of that night trying to get into the city, just to see if we could. We couldn't.

Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

I am especially upset with the police chief. He should have known better.

So, should they go?

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KentuckyBoy
April 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
They should be prosecuted for violating the 2nd Amendment rights of an entire student body while protecting the 1st Amendment (free speech) rights of a LUNATIC. My Constitution is not a SELECTIVE document. We must be allowed the rights and priveleges defined therin in their entirety.

Liberals think we can selectively administer this timeless document.

tenbase
April 20, 2007, 11:38 AM
it's 2600 acres (about 4 square miles), not 26.

my opinion is VT was more concerned about their reputation after the first shooting that morning, rather than going all-out to apprehend the guy.

Hobie
April 20, 2007, 11:40 AM
To answer your question, no.

However, VT should change their policy on legal CHP holder concealed carry on campus (as should every institution in VA).

SIRVEYR666
April 20, 2007, 11:42 AM
Do they normally put any entire city on lock down when someone is murdered? All of these things are easy to point out in hindsight. I'm putting most of the blame on the gun wielding psycho.

TheFederalistWeasel
April 20, 2007, 11:43 AM
I guess the world now thinks cops must be psychic... Ms Cleo, calling Ms Cleo your needed in the Chiefs Office!

30 cal slob
April 20, 2007, 11:46 AM
yes and yes.

first for making the place a victim disarmament zone.

secondly for twiddling their thumbs while the shooter was getting ready to kill another 30 people. TWO FARKIN HOURS! I want to puke. :cuss:

I really want to know what the cops were thinking when they had that boyfriend in custody. Didn't he witness the shooting? Didn't he say the shooter was still at large?

RealGun
April 20, 2007, 12:20 PM
I am essecially upset with the police chief. He should have known better.

That is known in hindsight, but did the first shooting really indicate that the rest of the campus was in danger? I see the grounds for complaints, but I think I would be more critical of someone who did not demonstrate learning anything from the unique incident.

I don't know that the campus is structured so that commuters can be readily blocked from entering campus or students blocked from leaving the dorms. That's a lot of manpower and equipment. We already know that alerting everyone was no easy matter. Give them a break and see how they react re future policy.

Sage of Seattle
April 20, 2007, 12:32 PM
People have been saying that the campus is too large to lock down and it's like locking down a small city and the fact that no place in the US locks down after a murder.

I agree that locking down the campus is an exercise in futility. However, isn't that the current campus policy for dealing with crime? I could be mistaken about this, though. If it is current VT (and other campuses) policy to lock down, then I would state that the VT president holds some culpability in not securing the campus.

mike101
April 20, 2007, 12:50 PM
"Do they normally put any entire city on lock down when someone is murdered?"

This was a college campus, not a city block.

As I said in my post, I've seen the cops blockade a whole city.

No one thinks the cops, or the chief should be physic. But, having the brains that God gave geese, and a little common sense, isn't too much to ask. Even something as minimal as suspending classes would probably have prevented a lot of death.

If two people are murdered on a college campus, then yeah, you secure the place, or at least try. These two incompetants did nothing.

And, at this point, it goes without saying that if CCW had been allowed, this whole thing may have had a different outcome.

Rem700SD
April 20, 2007, 12:57 PM
I don't think the VT president should be fired. I think he needs to be CRIMINALLY prosecuted for negligent homicide and fraudulent claims resulting in death. I believe he's the one who made the quote about safer schools after the pro cw bill died in commity. The chief of campus police should not be hung out to dry. He doesn't set policy.

Dan

Malone LaVeigh
April 20, 2007, 01:46 PM
Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired
I think it would be great if we went back to the old Roman tradition: if someone in office screwed up royally, he would be encouraged to fall on his sword.

Risasi
April 20, 2007, 02:00 PM
LaVeigh, you've been watching Serenity again, haven't you...

Malone LaVeigh
April 20, 2007, 03:06 PM
???

Haven't a clue. I'm pretty out of is as far as pop-culture is concerned.

I've just been fantasizing about my preferred outcome for the Bush admin...

Jeff White
April 20, 2007, 04:01 PM
I guess it's just a byproduct of our litigious society. An incident happens and within hours the great unwashed are calling for someone's head. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that the people calling for scalps usually have no idea what they are talking about. No one posting in this thread has any information but what's been in the media. I certainly hope that none of you are ever involved in anything tough or controversial. I bet if you were, you'd want your actions to be judged on facts established after an investigation rather then public opinion based on media reports.

Here are some things I've heard and seen posted (not all in this thread) as to how the authorities messed up:

They should have canceled classes. Sure, easy to say now after you put on your 20/20 hindsight glasses. Without 20/20 hindsight, you're looking at canceling classes at great expense because of what you believe is an isolated crime of violence. I truly believe that if the president had canceled classes because of the first two murders and they had been an isolated crime, many of you same people who are calling for his head for not canceling
classes would be calling for his head because he's a bliss ninny. I'm quite sure there would be one or more threads here at THR whining about the cowards who run our universities closing everything down at the first sign of violence. I swear many of you would complain if they hung you with a new rope. ;)

The police should have known that the first murder was the start of a killing spree.

How in blazes were they supposed to know that? Most murderers have some prior relationship with their victim. A murder by a stranger is extremely rare. So what clue was left at the scene that should have tipped the police off that it was the start of a spree killing? In this case they wasted time and resources looking for some kind of relationship to the victims. Well in virtually every other case, it would have been a waste of time and resources to look for a crazed stranger picking victims at random.

They should have had a better means of notifying the staff and students. Perhaps they could issue each person a pager like the volunteer firemen wear. That would be pretty expensive, but it's the only real solution. Police with bullhorns?? Yeah right....Obviously you've never been on the police side of that duty. Let me tell you, people will flat ignore you and go about their business. A large percentage of the population walks around in their own little world. In many cases if they hear you, they will think that you couldn't possibly mean them.

Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

When did the first officers from other agencies arrive? Do you know? Why would the FBI be called? What federal crime was committed? Where is the nearest FBI field office? How many agents work there? And you're basing all this criticism on the premise that somehow (ESP perhaps?) the chief should have known that this was the start of a spree shooting instead of a double murder.

By your standards society would slam to an abrupt halt everytime there was a violent crime committed......

Wait for the facts? Why? It's so much more satisfying to find someone to blame as soon as possible....:uhoh: :banghead:

Jeff

The Amigo
April 20, 2007, 04:13 PM
Hes not the problem. The problem stems from crazy gun control laws and crazy people.

RealGun
April 20, 2007, 05:11 PM
No one posting in this thread has any information but what's been in the media.

Effectively you're right, but I do have a channel. I have a good friend who works on the VT campus along with two sisters, not to mention her husband carrying mail. She reports that all of them were "within yards" of the incident. I have stayed at their house in Christiansburg. They're all okay.

That's not to say that I can add much at this point. I haven't bugged them beyond checking up on them on Monday. I do have access to private pictures of the campus.

JohnBT
April 20, 2007, 05:17 PM
"No one posting in this thread has any information but what's been in the media."

Well that's not entirely true. I imagine some of us old Hokies still have some contacts in Blacksburg. ;)

John

Here's a good pic of the main part of the campus.
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~lscharf/flying/2002-02-09-01%20Virginia%20Tech%20campus%20on%20climbout%20from%20BCB.jpg

Boats
April 20, 2007, 06:04 PM
One thing is abundantly clear:

If one is a prospective English major, VT is a diploma mill. The department should perhaps be demoted to a remedial writing shop.

In his now published "manifesto," and the two plays a former classmate has put online, it is abundantly clear that Cho's literacy operated at nowhere near a collegiate level.

One can only imagine his application essay.:eek: The man couldn't spell, couldn't employ an adjective properly, and had seemingly no concept of how to get a cogent point across through speech or writing.

Yet there he was, on track to graduate. He must have been earning "Madman's C's" just for showing up and turning in psychotic and illiterate rants.

If, (and I strongly suspect that it is), his "visible" written works are wholly comparable to those that may never come to light, VT apparently has little in the way of academic standards so long as one keeps paying timely tuition to attend their liberal arts college.

mike101
April 20, 2007, 06:05 PM
This isn't hindsight. A lot of us were saying, on Monday morning, that classes should have been cancelled, as soon as we learned that 2 hours had passed between shootings.

And I wasn't referring to the Campus Police Chief. I was referring to local police. Didn't realize that the guy in the news footage was the campus chief. I am assuming that someone actually did call the real police. They don't have to be concerned with school policy.

As far as notifying students. How about a dozen cops with bullhorns driving around campus, warning people? It certainly would have been better than what they did, which was NOTHING.

Art Eatman
April 20, 2007, 07:05 PM
Physically, how do you spread the word about such a problem as the first two shootings? Do the classrooms have phones? And, if "runners" are sent around, are they known to the teachers and students? How do those know it's not some hoax?

A reason must be given as to why folks should leave or lockdown. What sort of reactions can be expected? Is it wrong to expect that some will go running and shrieking in various directions--including toward what turned out to be more shootings? How do you "lockdown" those who are of age to make their own decisions about going or staying?

I can see griping about the difference between Virginia and Utah, but I don't know what practical thiing could be done by a school administration once the ruckus starts.

It seems to me that the police process AFTER the second round of shootings began is a more fit subject for discussion--once the facts are known as facts, and not as conflicting stories from the media.

Art

Hypnogator
April 20, 2007, 07:56 PM
I am especially upset with the police chief. He should have known better.

Known better than what? Apparent domestic violence fatality, the cops are working to ID and apprehend the suspect, then, two hours later, all hell breaks loose in a campus building. Are we to call the FBI, State Police, National Guard and the Citizen's Volunteer Militia every time there is a homicide? I find it difficult to believe that anyone could have foreseen the second shooting rampage, any more than they could have foreseen the first. But what do I know? I only have 20+ years of experience as a Federal Criminal Investigator.

mike101
April 20, 2007, 08:01 PM
Not "runners" Art. LEOs in Police Cars. I don't think they would be mistaken for a hoax.

And sending emails sure didn't work. Maybe they didn't have the resources to blockade the campus, but I don't see why they couldn't secure the buildings. Hell, they lock down schools if some kid brings a toy gun to school. Here, they had two bodies already.

And suspending classes is a no-brainer. I don't know why Jeff thinks there would be "great expense" involved.

I also don't think that a college president, or campus police, are qualified to say how response to a murder, or the ensuing investigation , should be handled. College cops are for rounding up drunken frat-boys.

jcoiii
April 20, 2007, 08:17 PM
A bit of a defense for the campus (and outside) police...(as I currently work for a campus police dept)

How many mass shootings have had a shooting at one time, and a secondary shooting two hours later? One, virginia tech. I would guess if many here, myself included, would respond to a double homicide in a dorm and think "targeted shooting, maybe with someone trying to help who got killed too" or something along those lines. No one would think, well two people are killed, but the shooter will probably come back and shoot more later.

/end of defense

Had my campus had a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, we would have locked down immediately and indefinitely in order to determine if the shooter(s) was/were still on campus. My campus is far from the size of VT, and has only three entrances. We could easily block entrance to or exit from the campus. Staff and faculty assist the police in announcing and enforcing the lockdown (read, "building coordinators" spread the word of lockdown and move any students into the nearest classroom.)

I realize that the VT police thought this was a one-time double homicide, but you lock down anyway. At least, we do.

FMJMIKE
April 20, 2007, 08:20 PM
I think whoever made the decision "NOT" to lock down the campus after the first two murders should definitely be prosecuted. There was no murderer in custody nor was the murder weapon. I think you should error on the side of safety. These officials were responsible for these peoples lives! This isn't like...Opppps.......We made a mistake. Let's try something else next time. This is.....Ohhh....The boyfriend did it and 30 more innocent people are DEAD!!! In two hours they could have had plenty of cops on campus. Even though the campus is big it is not like all 2600 acres needed locked down. Only the classrooms, administration buildings and dormitories needed security. Most of the 2600 acres is pasture, woods, barns and athletic fields.
.
I also believe whoever was responsible for security at Tech should be fired along with the President. Acting like they had no idea something like this could ever happen is the biggest bag of garbage I have ever heard. Did we not see what the Chechen rebels did to that school in Russia !!! Not Happen here !!! I think they have been living in their Ivory Towers too long. We need a new start with officials that have a realistic view of the world. Our greatest resource, Our children, deserve no less. Plenty of money is spent on the football team. Why not some on security.

Art Eatman
April 20, 2007, 08:46 PM
Mike101, okay; but how many cops are available? There's a report of "Shots fired on campus", right? Does that automatically bring all on-duty officers to the campus? Then, how is it decided who goes where and does what, and how long does all that take?

I'm not saying Do This or Don't Do That; I'm speaking to the physical problems that seem to be ignored in all this "woulda/coulda/shoulda" stuff.

VA Tech has 28,470 students, per Wikipedia. If only half were in class at any one time, and if it's reasonable to assume a class is no more than 30, average, then that's some 470 classrooms. Plus: Gym classes. Dorms. Student Union. Library(ies).

Time. Always time...

Art

JohnBT
April 20, 2007, 09:19 PM
Lockdowns are great, unless you're locked in the building with the shooter.

And how in the world do you lock down a 4-square-mile campus with well over 100 buildings and 35,000 students and employees? Not to mention the SIX MILES of steam tunnels connecting the buildings. Yes, the steam pipes are insulated. www.vtunderground.com/tunnels/tunnels.htm

Bullhorns? Might work if they drive up close to the windows. Otherwise, those stone walls are thick and the buildings solid. Heck, the year I lived in West AJ I had a 9' x 12' waterbed on the 7th floor and nobody cared. Sturdy.

http://www.virginiaplaces.org/geology/graphics/hokie2.jpg

Here's an article on Hokie Stone:
__________________________________
www.vtmagazine.vt.edu//spring99/feature1.html

"Today, no academic or student building will be constructed on campus without some native limestone in its facade. According to university architect Scott Hurst, this is a directive of the board of visitors, whose buildings and grounds committee must approve all plans.

Now quarried around Blacksburg, the Hokie stone emerges in a range of hues, described as three colors "white, pink and black." In time, all the stone will succumb to weather and turn gray, like Price Hall.

Using Hokie stone on outer walls is about twice as expensive as brick, according to the university's office of capital design and construction. But the value of Hokie stone to Tech cannot be measured in dollars."
__________________

Of course, they didn't use much stone on Burchard Hall, it's underground.

"The true size of Burchard Hall in the Cowgill plaza is hidden. That's because the building named for the late architecture dean, Charles Burchard, is mostly underground. Four large, glass pyramids provide natural light into the heart of the building, and a stairway leads from a kiosk in the plaza to subterranean offices and studio space. "

http://www.vtmagazine.vt.edu//spring99/Images/p7d.jpg

Meanwhile, do the police lock down your home town when a couple of people get murdered? They don't here.

John

P.S. - BTW, that's a gentleman's C that you get just for showing up. I hear the rich guys invented it up the road at UVA. :)

FMJMIKE
April 20, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think at least an effort to lock down the campus is better than none at all. They just didn't want the hassle of trying!!!

hunttheevil
April 20, 2007, 09:48 PM
Had the VT Pres. and University Police acknowledged the warning signs of this individuals stalking women, demonic writings, and recomendations from his professors, he may have not been there to commit this travesty. That is what they are guilty of. Being afraid of a lawsuit allowed by the laws they support, and the publicity.

goings_51
April 20, 2007, 09:50 PM
26,000 people on campus...

That's a small/medium size town / that's the population of 5 aircraft carriers

I can imagine that a population of that size typically experiences several murders a year. Initially, here was no particular reason to suspect that this was cause for a total campus lockdown.

I do have to wonder why this man was allowed to stay in school though.

I also think that we should all be very cautious about placing blame before all of the facts are known. That will only hurt our credibility during the debate that is sure to follow.

jcoiii
April 20, 2007, 09:58 PM
hunt,

The women who accused Cho of stalking refused to file charges=not the police's or anyone else's fault.

If we jailed anyone and everyone who wrote strange, violent fiction, over half of the current fiction writers would be in jail. Heck, have you seen the movies that are coming out these days? Every week, it seems, is a new movie like SAW, or Texas Chainsaw Massacre 12. These new movies are 100 times sicker than anything I have read of Cho's. So you'd be ok with a teacher seeing a student drawing some artwork of firearms and since the teacher finds it disturbing, they can turn them in or kick them out of class?

For me the kicker is the "mentally disturbed" and "imminent threat to himself and others" judgement that was seemingly ignored and/or overlooked later.

Cesiumsponge
April 20, 2007, 10:05 PM
A lot of procedures and people screwed up. Calling for a knee-jerk reaction to fire these people before figuring out all the nitty gritty details is the same reaction happening on "the other side", the knee-jerk reaction to blame video games, call for the closing of the Roanoke shop that sold the gun, pass new gun legislation, etc.

obxned
April 20, 2007, 10:13 PM
Each and every peoson who helped to make VT an 'unarmed vicitms' ghetto should be fired, sued, and tarred and feathered.

Gifted
April 20, 2007, 11:09 PM
I remember seeing on CNN a report on a false lead. Seems some girl knew some other guy that had gone shooting, and told the police about him. So, they ran around looking for him, while Cho was out doing his thing.

Here's one: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/
This one links to the NYT, which requires a log-in to view. Scroll down to "Questions on the First Attack."

Unfortunately, Google isn't being nice, and that's the only reference I can find. I remember seeing on CNN, but they aren't giving my any hits either.

Oh, and interestingly enough, this came up too. Seems you guys trying to sue might be dissappointed.
http://www.wlky.com/news/12629015/detail.html
If that was thrown out...

AlaskaErik
April 21, 2007, 12:07 AM
Don Imus was fired for a lot less.

meinbruder
April 21, 2007, 12:24 AM
Rem700SD is absolutely right.

I started to skim past and then I saw this, “CRIMINALLY prosecuted”. I agree completely with that! This dumbA$$ was contacted by campus police about a double murder in a dorm (including an employee of the college), the city police had to be notified as there is no real LEO status conferred to a rent-a-cop on a private contract. The collective decision was to ignore the incident as a “domestic dispute gone bad and there is no reason to panic because the shooter is off campus by now”. Mule-fritters!!

If a friend of mine asked for a ride to the bank and then killed a teller and guard while I waited for his return, I could be prosecuted for two murders. This college official is no less guilty of thirty-two murders. If the common buildings had been immediately locked to any entry and the local police called in to maintain security, all we would be discussing is a double murder on VT soil.

He is also the one responsible for the failure of the pro CCW bill in Virginia; he was quite smug about it on the day of and the day after the shootings. He might as well have pulled the trigger himself. Having made sure that all students were helpless in the face of a psychotic killer, he became personally responsible for their safety. A job he miserably failed at!

Don’t give me any “hindsight is 20/20” nonsense! If this was a grade, middle, or high school anywhere in the country; an instant lock-down would have occurred. Every officer in a five-mile radius would be standing watch and the FBI would be en-route from where ever needed to bolster the line. If a shooting occurred within a quarter mile of any public school, an instant lock down would be called. It shouldn’t be any different at VT, or any other college.
}:)>

Pilgrim
April 21, 2007, 12:30 AM
In his now published "manifesto," and the two plays a former classmate has put online, it is abundantly clear that Cho's literacy operated at nowhere near a collegiate level.
They didn't want to harm his 'self-esteem'.

Pilgrim

goings_51
April 21, 2007, 12:32 AM
If this was a grade, middle, or high school anywhere in the country; an instant lock-down would have occurred.

High schools are typically only one or two buildings and people aren't/shouldn't be comming and going all day. A campus is more like a town. I don't think any of us would have had the foresight to lock the whole place down.

RNB65
April 21, 2007, 01:29 AM
Are there lessons to be learned? Yes.

Are there some things that might have been done differently? Yes.

But overall, I have no problem with the VT police response. What if they had locked down the campus? Cho was a student determined to die a glorious Quentin Tarantino style death. He would have just shot up his dorm rather than a classroom building and the end results would have been the same.

thexrayboy
April 21, 2007, 01:59 AM
No way should we be swinging dull axes at people for not being prescient.
Did they have clues and indicators that this guy might go postal? Yes. But clues and indicators are just that. They are not information used to disrupt the daily operations of a university. Hindsight makes it real easy for us to paint blame with a broad brush. Foresight is a much harder tool to wield accurately.

Hindsight made the 9/11 attacks seem painfully obvious and when the next major terrorist attack occurs here we will also be aware, through the magic lens of hindsight, how easily we could have prevented it......if we were in fact a nation of Jean Dixon's.

wjustinen
April 21, 2007, 02:02 AM
This thread appears to be based on the myth that police (or the college administration) have a duty to protect.

The law says they don't. The police, as one highroad member so clearly states, exist to find and arrest offenders when we fail to take care of the situation ourselves.

It may well be that the college committed a tort by preventing licensed individuals from carrying to protect life. That may (perhaps should) be the subject of a civil suit.

It is bad enough to continually hear the bleating of the hoplophobes and gun banners "BUT YOU HAVE POLICE TO PROTECT YOU." It is high time that we who are willing to protect ourselves recognize - once and for all - that this is a ploy to disarm us. In many places in the world it is working.

Every time I hear a gun owner whining that the police didn't do their job because someone got hurt, I despair that we will ever see a time when free men again walk free streets.

mike101
April 21, 2007, 07:59 AM
"Mike101, okay; but how many cops are available? There's a report of "Shots fired on campus", right? Does that automatically bring all on-duty officers to the campus?"

Sure. Why not? How much could possibly be going on elsewhere, in a place like Blacksburg, VA, at 7:00 AM? Surely a dozen or so police cars with sirens blaring, and PA systems being used would attract someone's attention. And during that 2 hours, I think they could have gotten even more support from VA State police and FBI, and local cops from surrounding towns, if necessary. That's who threw that blockade around Camden, that I mentioned, local police from surrounding towns. The Camden police already had their hands full with the rioters. Bulidings would have been pretty easy to secure, because classes hadn't started yet. If for no other reasons, classes could have been suspended out of respect for the two people who had already been murdered.

I also don't see why, after finding two people shot to death in a dorm building, anyone would assume that this was a case of domestic violence. From what I've seen, Cho didn't have any friends, let alone a girlfriend.

Two dead, no suspect, no murder weapon. Sounds like a good reason to take SOME action. Emails after the fact did no good at all. With any luck, they might have caught this guy trying to get back in. Of course, maybe not, and the shootings may have taken place elsewhere.

I realize that the college pres. didn't want to upset the kiddies. But upset kiddies are better off than dead kiddies. Anything would have been better than what they did, which sure wasn't much.

I'd like to see what happens if that bill allowing students to carry ever hits the VA State Legislature again.

FMJMIKE
April 21, 2007, 08:28 AM
You know what. The problem is that no one wants to take responsibility for anything. There is no honor or sense of community. The honorable thing would be for the President of Va. Tech to resign. If someone did take it upon themselves to be responsible for security at Va. Tech I think a much better job would have been done. When your neck is in the noose and you are being held responsible you do your best !!! The current officials don't care. They want to blame someone else or plead ignorance. I say prosecute the bastards. They ARE responsible for these murdered kids !!!
:mad:

JohnBT
April 21, 2007, 08:29 AM
"Two dead, no suspect"

They had a suspect, or person of interest, one victim's boyfriend who was known to own and shoot guns.

I'm still chuckling at the lockdown proponents who've never been to Tech and don't understand the size of the campus. Heck, I chuckle at lockdowns in general when the location of the threat or threats is unknown because they herd people into large groups that make good targets.

goings_51: That's 26,000 students. Add another 10,000 employees plus any visitors. The campus covers 2600 acres, about 4 sq. mi.

John

mike101
April 21, 2007, 08:50 AM
" I'm still chuckling at the lockdown proponents who've never been to Tech and don't understand the size of the campus".

Camden, NJ has twice the population (about 80,000) of Blacksburg, VA (about 39,000) and is about 11 square miles in size, and the local South Jersey cops managed to handle it. And they could certainly have locked down the buildings at VTECH. If they had suspended classes, they wouldn't have had to spend much time worrying about the academic bldgs.

You watch. I'm already hearing rumblings from the VA Attorney General, on the news, about an investigation into the action (or lack thereof) that was taken by the school and the police. I think one or two heads are going to roll.

FMJMIKE
April 21, 2007, 08:55 AM
JohnBT... I am extremely familiar with the campus of Va. Tech. At 7:00 in the morning when the first murders occured the school did not have that many people on campus. Sure...2600 acres of mostly pastures, barns , woods and athletic fields. There is absolutely no reason an effort should not have been made to warn the students and faculty and to close the campus. Maybe it wouldn't have been as effective as it could have due to the size of the school. Yet do you just do nothing and hope for the best ??? Hell....If there was an effort made the 30 other murders may have been averted. I can't understand this defeatist attitude of oh lets do nothing. Give the students the knowledge of whats going on. Let them make a decision for themselves. Just like the jet in Pennsylvania that went down on Sept. 11 2001. These people learned that the terrorists were probably going to fly them into a building some where. They chose to fight because they had this information. Maybe the kids at Va. Tech would have acted differently if they knew about the earlier murders. They may have been more aware. More cautious. Maybe the damn murderer would have been caught. We however will never know because some bastard siting in his Ivory Tower didn't want the inconvenience of trying. I hope those responsible for the decision are prosecuted and quite frankly I hope they burn in H*LL with the murderer !!!:fire:

RealGun
April 21, 2007, 08:59 AM
You watch. I'm already hearing rumblings from the VA Attorney General, on the news, about an investigation into the action (or lack thereof) that was taken by the school and the police. I think one or two heads are going to roll.

Naaah! That will be just to exonerate and to undermine any lawsuits. Insurance companies probably requested it.

mike101
April 21, 2007, 10:26 AM
Art, one little annecdote about involving every LEO on duty.

The last time I was pulled over for speeding, was in Cherry Hill, NJ, about 20 years ago. In a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, 4 police cars had arrived on the scene. And Cherry Hill Twp. isn't a one-horse town, where nothing ever happens, like most of the little towns around here (24.5 square miles, population about 72, 000). That's almost twice the population of Blacksburg.

DMF
April 21, 2007, 01:38 PM
Should VT Pres. and Blacksburg Police Chief Be Fired?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I certainly think so, for the way they neglected to handle the situation at all, after the first 2 murders.

Now, we know what Cho was doing for the 2 hours between the 2 murders in the dorm, and the additional 30 murders at Norris Hall. He was off to the post office mailing his manifesto to NBC. During that time, NOTHING was done to secure the campus, and the shooter was still at large. They didn't even suspend classes for the day. If they had, there wouldn't have been anyone at Norris hall to shoot. Instead, they sent emails. I think a few cops with bullhorns might have been just a bit more effective.

Later, the college pres. and police chief were tripping over eachother, offering weak excuses to the press. The jist of these, was that the campus is too big to secure, with too many access points. Boloney. The campus is 2600 acres. Back in the early 70s, I saw local cops in South Jersey throw a blockade around the entire city of Camden, NJ, do to rioting in the city. Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres. My buddies and I spent the rest of that night trying to get into the city, just to see if we could. We couldn't.

Two hours was also enough time to get some State Police, and maybe even the FBI on the scene.

I am especially upset with the police chief. He should have known betterSo let me get this straight, if a guy and a girl are shot in an apartment or house a block from your home, you would support the police shutting down a 2600 acre area (3.3 square miles) surrounding that apartment building, including your house? You would want them to assume that every murder or shooting is the prelude to a major killing spree, and therefore they should severely restrict the freedom of everyone within 3 miles of the murder scene?

The truth is they had a guy and girl murdered in a dwelling, and there was nothing to suggest that the murders were a prelude to a killing spree. People get murdered every day in the same manner the first two victims were and it does not result in a killing spree. Prior to this if the cops were locking down every place within 3 miles of a murder or shooting most on this forum would be screaming holy hell about the oppression of civil liberties.

In fact here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=93934&highlight=WIG

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=93431

DMF
April 21, 2007, 01:45 PM
This is yet another example of the Catch-22 LE faces in these types of situations. If they take action and people get hurt, then the armchair quarterbacks all cry, "they're a bunch of trigger happy cowboys and should have waited longer." If people get hurt before LE takes action those same armchair quarterbacks will cry, "those cowards should have done something sooner."

In fact I've mentioned this before:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1841519&highlight=Columbine#post1841519

Jeff White
April 21, 2007, 02:18 PM
ure. Why not? How much could possibly be going on elsewhere, in a place like Blacksburg, VA, at 7:00 AM? Surely a dozen or so police cars with sirens blaring, and PA systems being used would attract someone's attention. And during that 2 hours, I think they could have gotten even more support from VA State police and FBI, and local cops from surrounding towns, if necessary.

I'm afraid you have no concept of the realities involved. Police cars driving down deserted streets warning people to stay in their homes makes a compelling scene in a disaster movie, but in real life, it's usually pretty much a waste. People in their homes, if they hear it at all, would most likely ignore it. If you need to notify everyone in a situation like this you must go door to door. It's the only effective way. Of course that takes a lot of time and manpower.

As for getting support from neighboring jurisdictions and the feds, in two hours you just might have officers arriving in sufficient numbers to begin closing up the campus. Of course given the size of it, you'd have a hard time securing it with a light Infantry battalion.

There was no reason that we know of for the police or the administration to know that this was a prelude to a mass murder. When you can show me a note that the scumbag left at the scene of the first murders detailing his future plans or even his future plans written in the blood of his first victims on the wall, then I will join you in saying the administration and police were irresponsible. But there is no information saying that there was any reason to believe that the first murders were the first step of his master plan.

I mentioned costs in an earlier post. Do you really think that there wouldn't have been a large financial cost to the college if they had canceled classes that late in the day? How many deliveries of perishable food and other supplies do you suppose they would have had to pay for and not use on a campus that size? I don't have any idea what the contract says, but I bet there would have been a lot of hourly workers who would have had to have been paid anyway. You are essentially suggesting that you shut down a small city with no advance notice. Of course there will be a big financial cost to the university. What about the vendors for things lie garbage disposal, contractors performing maintenance or construction work on the physical plant? They would incur costs that the university might have to pick up.

Then there is the time of day the first shootings happened. What percentage of the staff and students do you figure had already left home for the university? Have you ever been involved in trying to get a message to even 100 people? Even with all of the modern communication devices available to us, it still took 4 hours before the majority of people in my unit were notified for a practice alert. A good practice alert was when contact had been made with everyone in under 8 hours.

Why don't you put the mantle of responsibility on your shoulders? You are the college president. Sometime around 7:30 am on a Monday morning you are notified that there has been a double murder in the housing area. There is no information available to you that suggests this is anything more then that. The police are looking for the boy friend of one of the victim's room mates. So you weigh the time of day which makes it impossible to notify staff, faculty and students before they leave their homes, the not unsubstantial cost to the university in money against the possibility that the suspect is still on campus and dangerous. The fact that this double murder is really the first phase of the worst mass shooting at a school in American history never crosses your mind. That's almost incomprehensible.

Perhaps the university should employ a psychic or at least the president should have listened to Coast to Coast Am the night before.....:rolleyes:

I'm quite sure that if this had just been a double homicide and they had canceled classes, we'd see threads here calling for the university president and police chief's heads because they are bliss ninnys.

Jeff

brickeyee
April 21, 2007, 02:42 PM
The Blacksburg police had nothing to do with anything, besides supplying support to the campus police.
The campus police are deputized through the state police.
They are totally separate from the town police, or even the Montgomery Copunty police.
I saw Hokie cops, State cops, Montgomery County cops, and maybe a Blacksburg car in the various news show.

If you want to rail against someone, at least get the correct people.

SoCalShooter
April 21, 2007, 02:45 PM
There is definetly some negligence here, either intentional or unintentional as it may be someone should be removed or reprimanded and some new plans put in place for this type of action.

GEM
April 21, 2007, 02:45 PM
No - hindsight bias.

The crucial mistake was not banning this kid earlier on and him not getting into the NICS system (although - obviously he might get a gun elsewhere).

Also, allow CCW at schools for responsible adults.

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2007, 03:01 PM
The the cops were psychic, I would be with Mike on this all the way, but cops aren't psychic. Of course, if they would have been psychic, they would have stopped this before it happened.

gm
April 21, 2007, 06:12 PM
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

A simple phone call to each building alerting them of the murder.In my sons school, the main office has a switchboard setup with a speaker in each classroom where the secretary can communicate to individual classes or all at once and get an immediate response from each room by merely speaking into the air.Its not high tech,it certainly would be worth it and absolutly give results in real time.Its not that expensive.

Art Eatman
April 21, 2007, 06:27 PM
gm, I doubt that retro-fitting such a system into dozens of buildings and hundreds of classrooms would come under the heading of "inexpensive", no matter how useful. Miles of wire and conduit plus labor...

Art

SniperStraz
April 21, 2007, 06:50 PM
I doubt that anyone could have stopped this guy. Even if the Police chief had tried to do something, how do you stop a regular looking guy with a couple of concealed handguns? The fact is that VT isn't set up to stop things like this. The school would either have to fully allow their students to CC or else they would have to have the capability to verify with 100% certainty that no one gets on campus with a gun. Other than those two issues there is no way to stop it from happening. The truth is that there are many more effective things the cops could have done, but they didn't and if they got a new administration, that administration would probably make the same mistake if it happened again. If they keep the old idiots, at least they know what can happen and will most likely react very quickly if it ever happens again.

ilbob
April 21, 2007, 07:16 PM
I do not believe any practical measure either of these people could have taken after the first murder would have made any difference, so I don't see firing either one of them for that decision. You cannot lock down an area of that size for any length of time without it being a huge problem.

How long are you going to lock it down? An hour? A day? How are you going to take care of the tens of thousands of people you have imprisoned? Are they going to be able to go to the bathroom? How are you going to feed them? And are you going to be able to lock down (or maybe lock up is the better term) something that big in any effective way? There have to be hundreds of buildings with maybe thousands of doors. And when do you lift the lock down? When the crook is caught? When you have strip searched everyone that has been imprisoned? And under what possible authority would anyone have to institute such a lock down in the first place? These are adults we are talking about, not children.

Lock down sounds like a good idea, in a superficial sort of way, but as a practical matter, it really changes very little. It is mostly about politicians and administrators trying to cover their backsides, not about student safety.

Fulcrum of Evil
April 21, 2007, 07:45 PM
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

A simple phone call to each building alerting them of the murder.In my sons school, the main office has a switchboard setup with a speaker in each classroom where the secretary can communicate to individual classes or all at once and get an immediate response from each room by merely speaking into the air.Its not high tech,it certainly would be worth it and absolutly give results in real time.Its not that expensive.

Yeah, right. A murder has been committed and it's most likely an isolated event, not a prelude to mass slaughter. Locking down, or even alerting the entire campus is a joke - that's like locking down seattle because someone got shot in pioneer square. We live in a free country, not a police state.

Double Naught Spy
April 21, 2007, 10:10 PM
No the cops arent psychic but a murder had been committed,no gun and no perp had been located which begs the question,where was he/she at and are there any more victims.

Even if there had been a lock down, because of the first incident, so what? It likely would have been lifted after a couple of hours anyway when they didn't find the murder who was thought to have left campus. Even if it lasted several hours, Cho would have simply waited a little longer. It wasn't like they could lock down the campus indefinitely.

Norm357
April 21, 2007, 10:22 PM
How do you lock down a campus thats bigger than most cities in VA?

Double Naught Spy
April 22, 2007, 08:55 AM
Cho used chains on the door of the building he attempted to lock down.

mike101
April 22, 2007, 09:47 AM
"The Blacksburg police had nothing to do with anything"

Well, there's probably a big chunk of the problem, right there. If real police had been involved, immediately, I'm sure they would have come up with a better plan than to do nothing except send emails.

And where does it say that a college president is authorized to call the shots, after a double murder occurs on campus?

As has been noted before, it is a large campus. However, most of it is open land and athletic fields. 3.3 miles? Is that really bigger than most cities in VA?
Remember what I said about Camden? That's not such a small city, but the local police managed to keep everyone out.

JohnBT
April 22, 2007, 09:56 AM
" am extremely familiar with the campus of Va. Tech. At 7:00 in the morning when the first murders occured the school did not have that many people on campus."

That many people? I can account for nearly 10,000 in 45 buildings. Then there're the numerous dining halls and food outlets.

"The Virginia Tech residence hall system comprises 45 buildings and accommodates approximately 9,100 students." - VT site

___________

Here's a partial list:

Residence Hall Gender Beds Visitation Option Room Types Assigned Groups

East Ambler Johnston Co-ed 406 3 Traditional
West Ambler Johnston Co-ed 882 3 Traditional
Barringer Male 221 3 Traditional
Brodie Co-ed 277 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
East Campbell Female 164 3 Traditional
Main Campbell Co-ed 96 4 Traditional Graduate/Professional Students
Cochrane Co-ed 334 3 Suite
Main Eggleston Female 215 3 Traditional
West Eggleston Co-ed 198 3 Traditional
Harper Co-ed 249 4 Suite
Hillcrest Co-ed 108 4 Suite Honors Community
Johnson Female 181 1,2 Traditional
Lee Co-ed 811 3 Traditional
Miles Male 217 1,2 Traditional
Monteith Co-ed 202 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
Newman Co-ed 274 3 Traditional WORLD Program
New Residence Hall East Co-ed 220 4 Suite Upperclass Students and Transfers Only
O'Shaughnessy Co-ed 341 3 Traditional
Payne Co-ed 209 4 Suite and Traditional Graduate/Professional, Upperclass Students, and Transfers only
Peddrew - Yates Co-ed 219 4 Suite Residential Leadership Community
East Pritchard Male 488 3 Traditional
West Pritchard Male 528 3 Traditional
Rasche Co-ed 286 3 or * Traditional Corps of Cadets
Slusher Tower Female

(Will become co-ed Fall 2007)
324 3 Traditional MOSAIC, starting Fall 2007
Slusher Wing Co-ed 305 3 Traditional WING, Hypatia, and non-theme program residents
Thomas Co-ed 227 3 Traditional
Vawter Male 326 3 Traditional

dzimmerm
April 22, 2007, 10:00 AM
No, the Virginia Tech prez and the local police chief could not have forseen what happened. If they do not learn from what happened, then, I would feel justified in removing them from their positions if more qualified people were available to fill those positions.

Otherwise we are killing the messager like some despot who did not like the news.

dzimmerm

JohnBT
April 22, 2007, 10:32 AM
March, 2007. From the UVA Cavalier Daily:

"[Virginia Governor Tim] Kaine also announced Thursday that he has signed legislation (HB 3064) requiring state colleges to develop policies for dealing with students who exhibit suicidal behavior. The bill also prohibits colleges from expelling students for attempting suicide or seeking treatment for suicidal behavior."

______________

Some school officials weren't too happy with some of the wording in the bill.

http://clhe2.org/salpw2/details.asp?ID=101&Submit=Go!

"Leaders of the Virginia Association of College and University Housing Officers, and the Virginia Student Personnel Administrators have written to legislators asking them to remove the language that keeps administrators from “acting in the best interest of all students”. In a letter to the Virginia Senate and House,

The concern for us is the wording that states "no student is penalized." This wording is much too vague and essentially ties the hands of college administrators to effectively deal with these situations. "Penalties," means different things to different people, and certainly can mean anything to a student required to complete an assessment, take a leave of absence, etc. (Excerpt from letter to the Virginia House and Senate)."

FMJMIKE
April 22, 2007, 10:34 AM
I guess some people are still living in a Pre-Sept 11 2001 mindset. Not to assume a worse case scenario is really juvenile and shows that they are out of touch with reality. The President and Police officials are not the messengers....They are responsible for handling these situations. A responsibility which they failed miserably.

As to the 10,000 people and 45 plus buildings. Wouldn't it had been better to at least made an effort to place at least one Policeman in each building. It's not like these 10,000 people were in their own individual homes. Just an effort would have been better than nothing. No.... The Police were too busy chasing a false lead. That's not being psychic. Thats being incompetent !!! The murderer had time to mail packages and film videos between the murders.
Too bad the cops were not searching for a possible murderer on campus. They had assumed the murderer had left campus !!! An assumption that is criminal and/or incompetent and should be reason for firing/charging those responsible.
:fire:

RealGun
April 22, 2007, 10:41 AM
The bill also prohibits colleges from expelling students for attempting suicide or seeking treatment for suicidal behavior."

I would have a question about jurisdiction on that one...a State college or university maybe. It appears that some academia officials had a similar reaction.

ilbob
April 22, 2007, 02:08 PM
As to the 10,000 people and 45 plus buildings. Wouldn't it had been better to at least made an effort to place at least one Policeman in each building.

Does the VT police force even have 45 officers?

I find it ironic that there are people who on the one hand claim police can't and don't protect you (something I generally agree on), but on the other hand think somehow they have psychic powers so somehow they "should" have known what to do in an extremely chaotic situation.

The plain fact is that cops are no smarter than the rest of us, and they have no psychic powers with which they can predict the best course of action. About all they can do is follow through with whatever plan someone came up with to deal with this kind of situation and hope it works, while realizing it probably won't.

SniperStraz
April 22, 2007, 02:30 PM
I think there are 38 officers.

cassandrasdaddy
April 22, 2007, 02:45 PM
"As I said in my post, I've seen the cops blockade a whole city. "

really what city? when? for what?

cassandrasdaddy
April 22, 2007, 02:53 PM
dup

Sam
April 22, 2007, 02:56 PM
Cops are not a player in this. Their only legal function is to document the mess and other after the fact stuff. Sorry cops, thats what the courts say in defending you when protection does not happen.

On the other hand, those campus officials and legislators who denied a basic human right need to go.

Sam

Sam

mike101
April 22, 2007, 03:02 PM
C.Daddy-

Camden, NJ, 1973. Population about 80, 000, 11 square miles. Because certain members of the Hispanic community were rioting and setting fire to the place, for three nights in a row.

I thought I had posted the details in this thread, but it was in General Discussions.

"In the mid 70's, some of the Hispanic population of Camden, NJ were rioting, setting fires in the downtown area, etc. The police from Camden and surrounding towns cordoned off the whole damn city! My friends and I spent the rest of the night trying to sneak into Camden, just to see if we could. We could not. The only way in would have been to go around Camden, drive to Philly, jump in the Delaware River, and swim over. And Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres."

cassandrasdaddy
April 22, 2007, 03:41 PM
are you advocating declaring martial law for every homicide? you comparing a full scale riot with a double homicide?!

sure it might not have been 71? how old were ya?
i'm looking and not finding any report that cops sealed the city.

oops correction i did find this thread in a search but other than that....

mike101
April 22, 2007, 03:50 PM
I don't think it was '71. I was about 18 or 19 at the time. Where are you looking? It may have been more like mid-70's. Anyway, I was THERE and saw it with my own two eyes, so this isn't second hand information.

The cops blocked every road into the city.

"you comparing a full scale riot with a double homicide?!"

Nope. You comparing a college campus to a real city?

Jeff White
April 22, 2007, 03:52 PM
mike101 said;
"In the mid 70's, some of the Hispanic population of Camden, NJ were rioting, setting fires in the downtown area, etc. The police from Camden and surrounding towns cordoned off the whole damn city! My friends and I spent the rest of the night trying to sneak into Camden, just to see if we could. We could not. The only way in would have been to go around Camden, drive to Philly, jump in the Delaware River, and swim over. And Camden is a hell of a lot bigger than 2600 acres."

Just a couple of questions:

How long had the riot been going on before the city was sealed shut?

How much manpower from other agencies was used and how long did it take them to arrive on scene?

Do you really believe that they sealed off a city in less then two hours?

Here is a little example of how these things work: Back in September we had a train derailment near here. I was working an evening shift 4p-midnight. The train derailed at 4:17. About 4:25 someone noticed that there was vapor leaking from some derailed tank cars and the fire department was called. The fire department arrived on scene about 4:33. The firefighters were unable to get eyes on the placards on the leaking cars from a safe vantage point so they began to suit up their hazmat team and sheriff's deputies (two working for the entire county at the time) began to go door to door at nearby residences evacuating people. Additional fire personnel located the conductor and the manifest so they could attempt to identify what was in the cars that were leaking. The wind speed and direction was measured and about 4:40 the decision was made to close the interstate because the derailed cars were only a few yards up wind of the highway. I was assigned to assist a state trooper with closing the interstate at the North end of the affected area. The trooper an I took our squad cars down onto the Southbound lanes and got traffic stopped, then diverted up the ramp. Unfortunately many people didn't get the message and drove up the ramp and instead of following the detour sign, went right back down the ramp and back onto the interstate, driving through the affected area.

We placed cones where the squad cars were sitting and I took my squad up to the top of the overpass and blocked the ramp going back down the into the Southbound lanes. I then began directing traffic to make the left turn to follow the detour sign. There were still several drivers who were fearful of leaving the interstate and ignored my direction to turn left, drove around my marked squad car blocking the ramp and continued South on the interstate. I ended up stretching yellow crime scene tape across the entire ramp.

Around 4:45, the county Emergency Service and Disaster Agency (a volunteer organization) was activated. They began arriving on the scene within about 5 minutes. The other fire departments in the area called out their hazmat teams and dispatched them to the scene, the DOT began arriving with large lighted signs for the detour route about 3 hours later.

All in all it took over 4 hours for sufficient people from all the various agencies involved to arrive on scene to really get everything locked down and secured so that all entrances into the affected area were sealed off. And the area around the train wreck was much smaller then the college campus or Camden. the fact of the matter is, unless you have the personnel you need on site in a staging area, you don't seal off anything of any size and complexity within two hours. It's physically impossible.

FMJMIKE said,
The Police were too busy chasing a false lead. That's not being psychic. Thats being incompetent !!! The murderer had time to mail packages and film videos between the murders.

Too bad the cops were not searching for a possible murderer on campus. They had assumed the murderer had left campus !!! An assumption that is criminal and/or incompetent and should be reason for firing/charging those responsible.

What leads did they have to follow? Please post a link to the investigator's notes on the first homicides. I must have missed the part about the detailed note the scumbag left at the scene of the first murders telling the police of his nefarious plans. :rolleyes:

I suppose you will support the police sealing off your entire town, locking it down, permitting no movement until the suspect is in custody the next time there is a violent crime in your town. :scrutiny:

Jeff

mike101
April 22, 2007, 04:12 PM
OK, I've been poking around a little. Camden had riots in the '60s (who didn't), and again in '71, and again in '74. The worst was in August '71, and it involved the Puerto Rican community. That must be the one. So, I was not quite 18 at the time. And yes, the river helps. But if the river wasn't there, they would have had Philadelphia's finest to deal with. At the time, Frank Rizzo was Philly's mayor. He was an ex-cop/Police Commish., and a legend in his own time. The Philly cops pretty much had free reign to do whatever they saw fit. Nobody would have messed with them, trust me. You could find yourself buried in a vacant lot in North Philly.

Jeff- The rioting went on for 3 nights. The city was closed off on nights 2 and 3. Don't know exactly how much manpower was involved, but police from Gloucester, Haddon Twp., Collingswood, Pennsauken, and Woodlynne (all three of them, Woodlynne is TINY) were involved. Collingswood and Pennsauken aren't exactly metropoli, either. Is "metropoli" a word?

I realize that the police could not throw an actual blockade around the whole campus, but most of it is open ground. I still think they could have done something with the buildings. And, they didn't even start emailing students until the second wave of shootings was underway. And emailing was a stupid, and woefully inadequite way to warn them.

JohnBT
April 22, 2007, 04:57 PM
"The police from Camden and surrounding towns cordoned off the whole damn city!"

Cordoning off is different than locking down. One encircles, the other entails not only cordoning, but preventing movement between points on the campus as well as in and out of buildings - any movement at all actually, maybe even within buildings.

John

JohnKSa
April 22, 2007, 05:01 PM
The VA Tech campus was shut down just last year (August 2006) in response to a shooting suspect being in the area.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/79080

Access to Tech's campus has been largely shut down, with classes canceled and staff evacuated.

I'm sure that that situation was not identical, but it does show that it can be done--more importantly that it HAS been done recently.

This situation was simply one of the best examples we've had in the U.S. of what happens when large pools of unarmed victims are created and told that someone else will keep them safe. They aren't kept safe, and then, worse yet, their deaths are used as a pretense to disarm even more citizens.

FMJMIKE
April 22, 2007, 07:58 PM
I just hope that all the people who are defending the actions taken by the Police and President of Va. Tech are not in a position of responsibility. I would hate to think they are letting defeatists and people not willing to take responsibility for their actions do anything where their inaction would lead to more deaths. These poor dead students and faculty deserved much better !!! If you don't expect more out of people you won't get it.

RNB65
April 22, 2007, 10:03 PM
Wouldn't it had been better to at least made an effort to place at least one policeman in each building.

Let's do the math --

The VT campus PD has about 30 police officers.
The Blacksburg PD has about 50 police officers.
The Christiansburg PD has about 30 police officers.
The Montgomery County Sheriff's Office has about 40 deputies.

That's around 150 LEO's total in all of Montgomery County (how many are on duty on a Monday morning?).

The nearest state police office is in Salem, VA, nearly an hours drive away.

There are 300+ buildings on the main VT campus (not including the outlying areas). Not to mention the several miles of steam tunnel that run underneath the campus and connect almost every building. How exactly were they supposed to put an officer in every building?

You guys with the perfect 20/20 hindsight need to go over to Israel and join the IDF. You could make a fortune as advisors. They've been trying to stop suicidal mass killers for decades with very little success.

FMJMIKE
April 22, 2007, 10:11 PM
The problem is that "NO" effort was made to warn the students or try to secure the area in any way. If you don't try....You have no chance at all.

cassandrasdaddy
April 22, 2007, 10:15 PM
fmj said
"I just hope that all the people who are defending the actions taken by the Police and President of Va. Tech are not in a position of responsibility. I would hate to think they are letting defeatists and people not willing to take responsibility for their actions do anything where their inaction would lead to more deaths. These poor dead students and faculty deserved much better !!! If you don't expect more out of people you won't get it."

hmmm most remarkably almost all the folks defending the folks in charge are just that folks who are or have been in positions of responsibility. you know those guys with experience doing it as opposed to imagining how they could do it better if only....
maybe some of the keyboard commandos could regal us with their background and experience vis a vis responsible positions and moving and controlling large numbers of folks, much less doing it when things get a lil hairy. I'm sure we all wait with bated breath to be enlightened and informed. we will be sure to pass on the recommendations to those at the top and to implement them in our own affairs

FMJMIKE
April 22, 2007, 10:47 PM
The students were warned and the college was locked down a few months before the Va. Tech Massacre. I guess a lockdown is possible and not so difficult as some seem to think. The murder that caused that lockdown wasn't even on campus. On campus murders must not be serious enough to justify a lockdown or a warning. Just doesn't seem logical to me !!!

Hannibal61577
April 23, 2007, 12:45 AM
I don't know if they should be prosecuted/fired or not. How could you really know unless you were them and you were there. My whole problem with this is that everyone is looking for someone/something to blame. Conservatives blame not enough guns, liberals blame too many guns, etc, etc.

There is one person to blame and that is that SOB that finally put the gun to his own head and pulled the trigger, saving us taxpayers a load of money. If only he'd have done that with the first shot....

JohnKSa
April 23, 2007, 02:31 AM
There is one person to blame...The shooting is his fault. It's not quite so easy to assign the blame for it's going on for so long and claiming so many victims.

I'm not saying anybody should be fired--in fact I'd prefer that it not get taken care of that cleanly. That would put it to rest too rapidly and easily in many people's minds. People need to think about this for awhile.

JohnBT
April 23, 2007, 08:19 AM
"I'm sure that that situation was not identical, but it does show that it can be done--more importantly that it HAS been done recently."

Two major differences come immediately to mind.
Number one, they knew who they were looking for - Morva.
Second, they had from 2:30 a.m. to plan it and implement it before most folks got up.

"About 2:30 a.m. Sunday, Morva overpowered the officer, seized his pistol and shot Derrick McFarland, a hospital security guard, Davis said."

sansone
April 23, 2007, 08:25 AM
I don't want to see anyone lose their job but there is a problem with the timeline. 2 hours between the first pair of murders and the next large group of murders. also quite a distance between the locations.:uhoh:

JohnBT
April 23, 2007, 10:45 AM
What's the problem with the timeline? They were questioning one victim's boyfriend as a person of interest, but did not know who they were looking for or the motive, although a domestic situation was a reasonable assumption given the circumstances.

I suppose with enough manpower they could have stopped and searched everyone on campus. :scrutiny: After all, the guy wasn't walking around with a sign on his back, he was just one of many students in the crowd.

John

brickeyee
April 23, 2007, 12:21 PM
"And where does it say that a college president is authorized to call the shots, after a double murder occurs on campus?"

As the presidnet of the university he is the highest level of 'government' present.
This is a state chartered land grant university.
It is not legally located IN the town of Blacksburg since it is STATE property.
The campus police are deputized by the Va state police.

Who else would be in charge?
The governor?

FMJMIKE
April 23, 2007, 07:50 PM
My opinion means little to this arguement. It is in the hands of an official investigation. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. My apologies if I got to riled up. I am extremely upset about this............:(

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