Real world numbers Homicides


April 20, 2007, 02:02 PM
Just the facts.

From the CDC Mortality Statistics center.

Homicides in which a gun was used as the instrument:

2004(most recent year available)

Vermont, Virtually no gun laws, no permit required to own or carry, no waiting periods.....Just a simple quick call to the FBI to perform a background check.

2004 Firearm Homicides - 2 thats right.....TWO

Washington DC. All out handgun ban. No provision for carrying, near impossible to own, it is a de facto "Gun Free Zone"

2004 Firearm Homicides - 137

For those that blame the population sizes....VT has roughly 100,000 MORE people than the district of Columbia.

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Oleg Volk
April 20, 2007, 02:05 PM
Poster material!

April 20, 2007, 03:18 PM
While I understand and agree with the overall principle behind the message, I personally think that we need to avoid the convenient misuse of extremely general statistics in this way.

With due respect, comparing the murder rates of Vermont and DC, and suggesting a conclusion be drawn based upon the substance of their respective gun laws, is no more valid than the same argument made by the anti-gun lobby with regard to Irvine, CA (1 murder in 2002) and Waco, Texas (14).

It's just bad practice IMHO, and it detracts from our credibility.

Lobotomy Boy
April 20, 2007, 03:31 PM
I don't think it will be helpful to bring race into the issue, and when comparing the populations of D.C. and Vermont, the most glaring difference is that one population is predominantly urban and black and the other is almost all rural and white. The fact of the matter is that, for a variety of reasons that have not been fully explored, the majority of murders in the U.S. are perpetrated by African American males in urban areas (at least that is the case here in Minnesota, where a tiny minority of the black population--which comprises less than 15 percent of the total state population--commit over 60 percent of murders in the state. There are a number of factors at work here besides race, the primary one being economic disparity, but the issue is not dealt with in any meaningful way because anyone who even mentions it is labeled "racist."

This is exactly what would happen if an advocate of Second Amendment rights were to bring up the issue, even in a round-about way, like comparing a rural white state to an urban black city.

The decent, law-abiding African American people who are trapped in these crime-ridden urban environments are the people paying the price for our society's refusal to address such problems in an adult, rational way, but right now I believe that there is little we in the gun community can do to help them. For us to even open the door to this debate would be as counterproductive as it would be for the Democrats to pursue an openly anti-Second Amendment platform at the national level right now.

April 20, 2007, 03:35 PM
I think you are right regarding the race issue.

I wasn't referring specifically or exclusively to race when I made the comment about demographics, but I feared that it might be interpreted that way so I removed the sentence.

I was referring to the urban vs. rural, poverty, gang affiliated aspect of the two communities.

April 20, 2007, 04:12 PM
Economics... That is much more a factor than guns when it comes to crime.

April 20, 2007, 04:17 PM
You can't make a comparison between Vermont and DC because one has lets just say a less diverse population and a very low population density while the other have a more diverse population and a VERY high population density combined with significant poverty...a huge drug problem etc.

You CAN make a VERY good comparison between Virginia and Maryland since both states are in the Mid Atlantic, similar population centers and density etc etc.

Virginia has relatively simple gun laws that are not overly restrictive has lots and lots of CCW and enjoys a Murder Rate of just 6.6/100,00

Maryland has some wicked onerous gun laws has VERY FEW CCW (read Target Rich) and has a Murder Rate of 9.9/100,000

Thats ~35% higher folks!

The Criminals tend to come to Md because the victims tend to be unarmed.

April 20, 2007, 04:21 PM
Economics... That is much more a factor than guns when it comes to crime.

Are you sure? According to Forbes Magazine, "[Washington, D.C.] is also the 9th wealthiest city in the country based on a median household income, with over half of its residents having an income of $46,500 a year".

A 2007 report found that approximately one third of the population in Washington, D.C. is functionally illiterate, compared to a rate of about one fifth nationally.[17] One of the primary reasons attributed to this is the growing number of hispanic and ethiopian immigrants in the city that are not proficient in English.[17] This shows huge disparities in the city because over 45% of residents have a college degree or higher and it ranks 4th in the nation with that educational attainment.[18] A 2000 study shows that 83.42% of Washington, D.C. residents age 5 and older speak only English at home and 9.18% speak Spanish.

I believe that demographics, not economic reasons, are the root behind Washington D.C.’s crime rates. Not a statistical correlation between gun laws. However, we must remember statistics class! Correlation does not imply causation! So it’s very difficult to pin a definitive answer on the huge differentiation of these crime rates.

April 20, 2007, 04:33 PM
Speaking of real numbers...I wonder if there is data out there that records crimes committed by CHP holders. I'd be interested to compare it to other data sets.

Now the geographer in me really wants to make a map. :rolleyes:

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