[Frenchie Pete]

Hello!

This is my first time on an American forum because I live in France. I've been shooting blackpowder for years now and I've never owned a Colt, I love Remington revolvers.
I think Colt revolvers are made for .36, that's why I'm planning to buy a 1851 Navy, Pietta. The civilian model with silver plated triggerguard and backstrapp.

Here in France, we don't have the same quality BP revolvers than you, it's all for you, we sometimes have horrible "things". Si I'd like to know:

Will my .36 shoot loose with time, I don't think so as I load very small charges. (0.6/0.7g of PNF2, french blackpowder).
What will happen in the future with this gun?

Thanks for your replies! Great forum! Great users!
(sorry for my mistakes)
:) :) :) :)

[Thomas Hawkins]

Frenchie,

I have a Colt Signature Series 1851 Navy with a silver coated trigger guard. The coating is coming off around the edges. This gun is a collector and has not been turned. I bought it in 1994. I think if this was a shooter the coating would be worn off even faster. I also have an Uberti 1851 Navy shooter with a brass trigger guard. This pistol has a great finish on the metal and is a good shooter. It does take .380 balls, but that should not be too much of a problem.

Good luck

[Bad Flynch]

>I think Colt revolvers are made for .36, that's why I'm planning to buy a 1851 Navy, Pietta<

The 1851 and 1861 Navies are usually 36 caliber, but be aware that Pietta makes a 44 caliber 1851.

Your loads, 0,6/0,7 grams, translate into 9.25/10.8 grains, by weight. The normal charge for a target load for the 1851 Navy would be on the order of 17 grains, by volume. That is approximately 1.1 grams, again, by weight, or about 1.29 ml by volume. All of the weight to volume calculations are just that, calculations, and should not be taken literally. The old volumetric method that we use is a bit of a pain. It amounts to a bulk specific gravity measurement and cannot really be calculated reliably.

Try not to leave any air space under the bullet.

Your English is just fine, no apologies are needed. If our people do not understand that, it is their problem.

All open frame revolvers will eventually shoot loose, and the necessary disassembly that goes along with the cleaning does not help, either. Here in the U.S., if I were going to buy a Pietta brand revolver, it would be necessary to examine the sample before I bought it. Pietta's quality needs a hands-on check.

The light charges that you load should not contribute unduly to the early demise of your revolver.

[J.T. Gerrity]

The Colts have been proving their design for over 170 years now, so I wouldn't be concerned about whether they last or not. Many people (usually those who have never owned a Colt open-top) think that they are "weak" because of the lack of a top-strap, but this is a fallacy that has persisted since the first Patersons were released. In fact, there are many 140+ year old guns out there that are still tight and going strong. Of course, if you're talking about the brass-framed models, then, yes, they do tend to stretch out after many years of use (always use light charges in them). This is generally not a problem with the steel-framed guns.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the Colts are "made for .36"; this would disregard the 1860 Army, all of the Dragoons, and the Colt-Walker, all of which are .44 caliber.

As far as charges are concerned, we charge by volume rather than weight, so a .36 is typically charged with 20 grains FFF per volume, .44 Colt Army and Remington 35-40 grains per volume, and Dragoons and Walkers 40-50 grains (some will shoot 60 grains in the Walker). I'm not sure how this translates into grams.

Bottom line is that if you get a well-made steel-framed Colt-style pistol (Pietta is good... Uberti is my personal preference... I just think they're better made and do not have writing all over the barrel), you can safely use full charges in them and shoot them with no concerns. And if you take care of them (clean thoroughly, keep them oiled properly, etc.), they can become heirlooms that your grandchildren can enjoy many, many years from now...

[Frenchie Pete]

All right, thank you.

It's complicated the way you measure your charges in the US, anyway, it's the same.
0.6/0.7 g for a .36 and 0.9/1.1 g for a .44.

When I say that Colt revolvers are made for .36, I mean that maybe, as there is less recoil, pressure than in a Colt Army .44, maybe it will shoot loose much much much later. I'm talking about the wedge, maybe shots will not hurt it as a .44 does.
But a Walker, or Dragoon are pretty big, that's why I think there's no problem shooting them, a Colt Army is approximately as big as a 51 Navy, maybe .44 is too powerful. (I'm sure it's not, but with Italian manufacturers, I'm not talking about originals).

And what about the cylinder pin, does the 'hole' in this pin, in which the wedge is pushed, get bigger, I mean, gets worn out because of the wedge?
I know, it's exactly the same in France, there is a 'myth' about Colt fragility, but everybody loves them.

I do prefer Uberti, but Pietta seems perfect for a Navy 51, but is it true that they use bad steel? I think that when I hear it, people are talking about the inner parts, the clock work.

I'm a Remington man, but for me, Colts are the most traditionnal Old West revolvers that a shooter must possess.

Thanks for your replies!
:) :) :)

[mykeal]

Frenchie,

I'm not aware that there is any evidence that a .44 cal Colt design is any weaker or tends to "loosen up" any faster than .36 cal on the the same frame, even in the Italian reproductions. A far bigger issue is the quality of the individual gun.

Having said that, the 1851 Colt Navy was originally a .36 cal design, so for my money, one should buy a .36 cal reproduction if one desires the "original" design. Thus my reason for buying a .36 cal 1851 Colt Navy instead of a .44 cal 1851 Colt Navy would be authenticity, rather than longevity.

I do own a .44 cal 1851 Colt Navy; I call it my 1851 "Army". I understand some Confederate versions of the design were made in .44 cal, so the caliber does have some historical meaning.

I own some Pietta and Uberti Colt design revolvers with nearly 30 years of usage. None have shown any issues with respect to wear of the wedge opening in the base pin. I am careful, however, not to drive the pin into place with excessive force. One must be careful not to cause interference between the cylinder and the barrel.

There are reports of "soft" action parts on all Italian reproduction revolvers. Pietta seems to cause the majority of the complaints, but that is just my impression, not backed up with any hard data. This does not seem to be something one can predict in advance on any one gun, except to perhaps purchase some spare parts to be prepared in the event one needs to replace them.

Finally, Pietta's overall quality is still something of a question here. Some recent purchases of new guns from one supplier here have been a problem according to reports on this and other forums. However, many people have had excellent experiences with Pietta, myself included. My personal preference is Uberti, but for no good reason other than emotion. The advice from Bad Flynch is perhaps the most useful, and it applies to any gun purchase in my opinion, but especially Pietta black powder revolvers: handle it and inspect it carefully. Otherwise, make sure the supplier has a good return policy.

[J.T. Gerrity]

But a Walker, or Dragoon are pretty big, that's why I think there's no problem shooting them, a Colt Army is approximately as big as a 51 Navy, maybe .44 is too powerful. (I'm sure it's not, but with Italian manufacturers, I'm not talking about originals).


The steel used to manufacture the guns today are far superior to that available to 19th century manufacturers. True, some of the lockwork parts from Pietta seem to be of lesser quality, but the overall quality of the gun metal equals or surpasses that of the originals. I have several Colt repros made by different manufacturers, and the only ones I've had to replace the lockworks on have been the Piettas. I agree that you should inspect the gun before you purchase it, if you can; otherwise, buy from a reputable dealer who will stand behind your purchase and make it right if there are problems. Get yourself a Uberti; If you treat them properly, there's no reason why they shouldn't outlast you.


As for the rest of your concerns, you're still buying into the "weak" myth. The 1860 Army was one of Colt's most popular pistols. It was the model purchased most by the Army during our Civil War, and thousands of them went on to help "Win the West". Many were converted to shoot cartridges, and a large number are still being used today, despite the inferior steel used in their manufacture.

Once again, I have to point out that the design of the Colts has been around for almost two hundred years. You'd think that if it was faulty, folks would never have bought tem in the numbers they did, and they would have faded into obscurity long, long ago. As it was, Colt's BP line of arms helped develop and establish Colt's reputation for quality that made them the premier gun manufacturer in the USA (and the world). Colt's pistols were synonymous with the winning of the West ("God made men; Col. Colt made men equal"). True, the design was made obsolete years ago, but only because a better way of doing things was developed, not because the design didn't work.

[Old Fuff]

Frenchie Pete:

Welcome to the High Road. We have at least one other member who shoots black powder revolvers and lives in France.

So long as you use black powder you cannot overload a revolver because of the cylinder's length. Each chamber will only hold so much powder, and after that there is no room for a ball or bullet.

The original 1860 Army revolver, made by Colt's in the 19th Century, was based on the same frame as the 1851 Navy. The frame was slightly modified to use a larger cylinder, and of course had a different barrel. The replicas made today are the same. If the quality of the revolvers is the same, an 1860 Army or 1851 Navy will hold up to shooting exactly the same. The slightly larger .44 bullet or ball, and heavier powder charge will make no important difference. However the slightly lighter charge used in a .36 revolver will result in more charges out of a can of powder, so they are more economical to shoot. Buy which either one you like best.

[Afy]

Pete,

I live in france as well and the quality of the revolvers is no worse nor any better than the US or elsewhere.

Swiss FFFG is available in france so... use that where possible.

The pNF2 is not bad powder... but you do need to use more than 0.6 g (9 grains).

In a Remington 1858 I typically use between 1.5- 2.0g (44 grains) and as much as will fit in the chamber.

I dont have pietta's so cant tell you about those, but the Uberti's hold up just fine.

[Frenchie Pete]

Ok guys!

I've just bought 2 revolvers:

- 1851 Navy Colt Pietta, perfect, really tight, smooth action.
- I replaced my old Uberti 1858 for a brand new one with the OWA stampings on the left grip, I know everything about Remnies and its history, the design etc... and this one has some new features which make it look even more like the real thing. This is my second Uberti, and it's true that it's wonderful quality, I just hate the loading lever, its shape, well :banghead:

Yeah, it's time to stop this "cliché" that Colt open tops are weak, I just wanted to ask it to american experts. Moreover, I shot an original yesterday, it was just cool:D

Hey! French shooters? Great! I was feeling alone.
Thank you so much.

:) :)

[barman]

Welcome to the High Road. We have at least one other member who shoots black powder revolvers and lives in France.


I'm also French, passionate about the USA and its History... and I believe Pete and I are coming from the same French black powder forum! :D

Pete, as I previously pointed out to you, the Colt design is very solid and one really shouldn't worry about excessive wear when comapred to the Remington design.

By the way, I'm really glad you finally bought this Pietta 51' Navy!


As other people from both sides of the pond have demonstrated, Colt would never have achieved its huge success in the firearm industry if it had come with fragile instruments plagued by a deeply flawed design.

[Frenchie Pete]

Exactly, we both are from the same French forum, funny that shooters around the world can meet wherever they go on the Internet.
I shot the Navy yesterday, 4 cylinders and no particular problem, don't know if it could shoot more because I tried the Remington, it's a perfect six gun, soooooo smooooththth.
Anyway, Pietta has made a very good revolver, very good quality. I recommend it.
:) :) :)

[rusty from italy]

Hallo Frenchie, a welcome from Italy to this forum, a good place were talk about our addiction in black powder shooting!
You use only revolver or rifle and musket too??
Good the advice to use swiss powder, is cleaner than french burn more but fouling are slightly hard, need a good lube to keep it soft for a long use without swab the bore, i usually fire 50 or more round each arms i carry on the range and i clean them at home!
ciao
Rusty

[Frenchie Pete]

I shot muskets, Sharps, well, a lot of rifles but I can't afford one of these, so I shoot revolvers, it is as funny.
I also shoot cartridges, Winchesters, Marlins...
I think I also am addicted to Cowboy Action shooting, I even would like to smoke blackpowder.:D :D :D