Jacketed Vs Lead In Charge Data?


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mike240se
April 21, 2007, 05:25 PM
First of all i want to say after one 1 week reloading with the lee anniversary kit i am loving it, so much in fact i just ordered the lee classic turret press, pro auto disk dispenser, and lever safety prime. I also got a rcbs rangemaster 750 the other day so i have pretty much completely obsoleted my anniversary kit except for the manual and couple small things in 1 week. I wish i knew about this site before i purchased, could have saved some money, i probably could return it to midway but a) its used and b) it cant hurt to have extras and it might come in handy when i start reloading rifle rounds.

I also just received my .38spl dies and am making my first batch, my 9mm batches were no problem, the charge data was perfect, the rounds worked great but with the 38spl i cant get the right data and am not sure i am using a good powder for 38spl. Its a rainer leadsafe 125gn flat nose copper plated bullet, the powder is universal, there is no entry for universal in the manuals for similar bullets, there is an entry for 125gn hornady jacketed xtp which is a start load of 4.7 and then there is a 125gn lead flat nose which is only 4.2 start load. So now i dont know which is correct, i went with the hornady xtp since its jackted and made my first batch 4.7 grains since that should also be the max load for the lead bullet just in case. Is this correct? I also checked hodgdons website for a load but the same info was there.

Also, is this bad powder for .38spl? in my 9mm it seemed to fill the case up to where the bullet would be seated, in my 38 it only fills the bottom of the cartridge and it looks like there will be empty space after the bullet is seated. Is there a better powder to get for these 2 pistol rounds? Universal seems to be like these tiny flakes. It was all the store had but would i be better off with some unique or something? The universal is also giving me a hard time in my lee perfecr measure too. thanks.

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JNewell
April 21, 2007, 05:54 PM
The Rainers and all similar plated bullets should be loaded with charge data for LEAD bullets. The plating is very, very thin. They are in no way similar to a jacketed bullet (other than the fact that you put powder under them to make them come out the muzzle!).

Shoney
April 21, 2007, 07:35 PM
The load data from Hodgdon's web site is:
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

125 GR. CAST LRNFP - COL 1.445" -
Universal - Start 4.3 872fps 8,700 CUP --- Max 4.7 1036fps 16,800 CUP

Universal is a good powder, but starting at the max is never good idea. Although your load is listed at max for lead, you will be OK to shoot them. Many shooters report that they regularly push Rainer plated bullets well beyond the max loads for lead bullets, without any signs of leading. I do not recommend this for a beginner.

You should load up five cartridges, starting at min load of 4.3gr, then five more more at 4.5gr, and test all three of your loads for accuracy and performance.

Winchester 231 would be a good powder, as it yields excellent performance and meters very well.

Walkalong
April 21, 2007, 10:08 PM
Many shooters report that they regularly push Rainer plated bullets well beyond the max loads for lead bullets

I'm one. :)

Zippy06
April 21, 2007, 10:34 PM
Try Titegroup. Someone had a single charge for .357 up to .45.
It meters good. And goes farther. Used to use unique. Power pistol is nice. But, you use more. I just plink.
Any problems with Lee. Just call or email. Very nice people.

Zippy06
April 21, 2007, 10:36 PM
If you do wad cutters. Bullet is flush with the case mouth. Some people, say the best bullet, won a lot of shoots.

RustyFN
April 21, 2007, 10:39 PM
Many shooters report that they regularly push Rainer plated bullets well beyond the max loads for lead bullets, without any signs of leading.
I don't load them past max but I do load them in the middle range of jacketed bullets. Berry's are also plated and their web site states that they can be loaded using lead data to middle jacketed up to 1200 FPS. I load Ranier bullets the same way in 9mm and they shoot great. In my Speer # 13 manual they have the 125 grain jacketed at 5.6 start and max 976 fps. Hope this helps.
Rusty

mike240se
April 22, 2007, 12:52 AM
Wow that means i have been running max loads. Good thing i started at 10% reduced loads or i may have been in trouble. I have been running my Rainer Leadsafe 9mm 115gn round nose and hollow points at start loads for Jacketed 115gn bullets. I didnt know they were considered lead bullets since they are completely coated in copper. I have winchester 9mm 115gn JHP-Notched bullets too, are those also not considered jacketed? I assume they actually are jacketed since they are call jacketed and not plated or coated.

In none of my reading or manuals did it say that distinction, i am lucky i wasnt one of those idiots who start with max loads or i would be in trouble. I thought they seemed a little "hot" for start loads too.

Should I pull the .38spl leadsafe rounds that i loaded at 4.6-4.8 (margin of error of my dispenser) ?? I assume they should be safe since they are over Min. OAL. I dont want to pull them if i dont have too.

I will try to find some titegroup or Win 231 powder, my local stores have a terrible selection of powder and i refuse to pay the $20 hazmat fee for 1 pound of powder.

Walkalong
April 22, 2007, 12:18 PM
Wow that means i have been running max loads. Good thing i started at 10% reduced loads or i may have been in trouble. I have been running my Rainer Leadsafe 9mm 115gn round nose and hollow points at start loads for Jacketed 115gn bullets.

I routinely run them (Ranier 115 RN) at the top end of jacketed data. No problems. Do work up to it please.

454c
April 22, 2007, 03:03 PM
Does this mean plated bullets would be a good alternative to lead when building light loads ?

I see the jacketed bullets don't get loaded down as far as lead bullets. This is due to the softness of the lead, correct ?

Steve C
April 22, 2007, 03:38 PM
Lead bullets have less resistance when pushed down the barrel than jacketed bullets. Thus lead bullets will have higher velocity for a given charge than the same weight jacketed bullet. Lead is also softer and has a lower melting point than copper jacketing so it reacts differently when fired. This is why the data is different for the types of bullets.

Copper plated bullets are somewhere in between. I have picked up spent copper plated bullets at the range and they all have the copper removed leaving exposed lead where the rifling lands grooved the bullet. Some have almost all the plating removed and I'd guess that this is from bullets fired at higher velocity. All that removed plating resides in someones barrel after shooting, so while you may not get any leading from driving plated bullets hard you do get copper fouling. In my experience I've got more copper fouling from plated bullets than from typical copper jacketed bullets.

alucard0822
April 22, 2007, 04:15 PM
I am a fan of the rainier bullets, they are only as strong as hard cast lead, but when you start to push your luck with hardcast they will lead your barrel, rainiers will start to get a little erratic and the group size will widen, but they won't lead the barrel. You have to be careful using XTP or X-bullet data for normal jacketed loads, some jacketed bullets are not as strong and can come apart, my bubba 357 (125gr over 22gr h110) load is listed under XTP, 41,400psi and chronoed near 1925fps out of my 4" 686 is a very hot, very accurate (2.5" at 25yds) load leaving nice round holes at 25yds with the XTP, but with jacketed remington SP and HP I have had a few leave small shrapnel holes in the target near where the bulet impacted from jacket sepaation, and they are no where near as accurate (5" at 25yds)

GP100man
April 22, 2007, 04:59 PM
ive shot158gr hps .in a GP100 6" before i learned about the 1100-1200 speed limit& left the copper cores in the bore ,but accuracywas so bad on the test rounds that i was checking the bore after each shot anyways.
the copper is only .003 to .007 thick , so strength & adhesion can only be so so at best.
i called rainer bullets & had an extended conversation with a nice lady that knew there product because she was a shooter too!!
she said she never pushes the plated bullets with hps over 1100 fps & the round noses over 1200. wish i could remember her name&ext because she knew her stuff on the products!!

GP100man:)

ps my regular go to load is 15.5 to 16 gr of h110 under home cast .

Walkalong
April 22, 2007, 08:51 PM
The 115 Ranier RN will go 1300 FPS plus with no seperation/wearing off of the jacket and with good accuracy. :)

They make GREAT plinking bullets and most folks won't push them more than 1100 FPS or so for range shooting.

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