UZI 9mm vs. HK MP series.


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Retro
April 21, 2007, 10:19 PM
Could anyone direct me to a link that compares the ballistics and accuracy of the two named submachine guns.

UZI has a flip-up rear sight that goes out to 200 meters, and can a commerical 9mm FMJ round really be effective at 200 meters with a 16.1 barrel? I know that artillary luger can go out to 300 meters but the WWI 9mm rounds were very hot.

Plus the UZI has a screw-on barrel, and therefore how accurate can this gun really be at 100 yards? Is UZI as accurate as a HK MP seris SMG?

What is the effective range of a UZI? 50 yards?

Inputs will be appreciated.

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MassMark
April 21, 2007, 11:36 PM
Retro:Plus the UZI has a screw-on barrel, and therefore how accurate can this gun really be at 100 yards?

Um...This accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/MassMark/Uzi100Group.jpg

The Uzi does not have a "screw-in barrel" per se. It has a drop in barrel and is held in place with a barrel retaining nut. It's also accurate at 200-yards as well. As you can see from the target board, my first grouping was high, because I felt I needed to compensate for the 9mm velocity loss. Not so. This outing was with Winchester White Box, (pretty much all I shoot).

Having owned both the Uzi Carbine and an HK-94, I can honestly say I prefer the Uzi platform, but that's just me. Both have their benefits, but I find the Uzi fits in better with my shooting. Pluses are that it's a robust, reliable, fast and as you can see - accurate platform. A stock 9mm Uzi can also be retrofitted to .40 S&W and .357Sig as well - simply by dropping in a new barrel. No bolt, extractor or magazine changes needed. With conversion kits, you can also run .45, .41, .22 - There's even a GG-lower available which will allow you to run .45 with Grease Gun mags. You simply can't do that with an HK.

I cannot direct you to a ballistics comparison link, but if you want to learn more about the Uzi than you can imagine, check out Uzi Talk (www.uzitalk.com) The library there is loaded with information and you'll even find folks who own both. Good luck in your search....

Feanaro
April 21, 2007, 11:48 PM
can a commerical 9mm FMJ round really be effective at 200 meters with a 16.1 barrel?

A Speer's(because they list the ballistic coefficient) 147 grain 9mm bullet with a speed of 1,000 FPS at the muzzle is still going about 850 FPS, from what I can calculate. 240 ft-lbs of kinetic energy. Nothing to sneeze at. Not anywhere near the same class as a rifle though.

Is UZI as accurate as a HK MP seris SMG?

The MP5 fires from a closed bolt while most Uzis are open bolt. The closed bolt is generally considered to be more accurate, all things being equal. They are, of course, not.

Retro
April 21, 2007, 11:56 PM
Thanks MassMark, for the awesome info! Btw, about the picture that you are showing, it is at 200 yards or 100 yards? Thanks.

HorseSoldier
April 22, 2007, 12:00 AM
+1 what Feanaro said. At least if you're talking about real military issue Uzis (do the civilian legal carbines fire from a closed bolt?). The Uzi is pretty nice as open bolt SMGs go, but there's no real comparison to the accuracy of an MP5 firing from the closed bolt.

Evil Monkey
April 22, 2007, 12:01 AM
HK delayed blow back SMG's are high quality and all.....but if you intend to use an SMG for close quarters work, then does it really have to have a closed bolt action blow back that's also DELAYED and more complex?

+1 for the UZI being cheaper and just as capable for intended purposes.

MassMark
April 22, 2007, 12:13 AM
Retro - you're welcome!

This was a 100-yard target. Going to take some 200-yard pics soon. The groups at 200 are wider, but still some nice strings. Mine by the way is an IMI Model B Semiauto Carbine - fires from the closed bolt. Like I said, there's room in this world for both - love the HK94, but from a sheer "combatability" standpoint, the Uzi really is an SUV. The average shooter can do most anything to this gun from a maintenance standpoint. It's easy to work on. HK's are very modular as well, however their achilles heel is the barrel. It's not likely that you'll shoot one out, but if you pop a squib, your out dough and perhaps a really expensive gun. Pop a squib in the Uzi and most times you can drop in another barrel and keep on truckin... ;)

yhtomit
April 22, 2007, 12:59 AM
Maybe because for me the Uzi is an iconic gun from the action movies that were on when I was in grade school, but it's just a strangely appealing shape -- it "looks like a gun" in the same way that to some (many) people a generation older than me, an M1 "is right."

The price isn't as high as I used to think, either. Now I wonder what the accuracy / velocity difference is between an Uzi and a (cheaper, and James Bond-ier) SU2000, another one of those guns that keeps tempting me to sell an internal organ or two ...

timothy

MassMark
April 22, 2007, 01:10 AM
Thanks Timothy - I feel much the same way. Bought my first Uzi in 1986 and just have loved the design ever since. It is a substantial weapon - looks it, feels it...is it... :cool:

Though prices have gone up, they can be had for a "do able" sum.... I continue to see original Israeli Made IMI's in NIB or Unfired condition for anywhere from $1000 -1400.00 That's not peanuts, (bought my 86 for about $500). Vector is another solution to feed the need, but they're going up as well. I've seen them for about $800.00 and folks who have them seem to love them. For me though, there's no substitute for my IMI... ;)

So, prepare to vent-out that kidney and get yourself an Uzi...Sub2000's are cool as a cucumber, but Uzi's are the iceberg... :cool:

Retro
April 22, 2007, 01:28 AM
haha MassMark, I have a IMI Model A, recently purchased for $1499 + tax (trade in with other guns). I have not fired it yet... too busy this weekend. The gun is so heavy and very sturdy. Israeli really know how to make guns... I was going to pick up a Desert Eagle but the pistol was too too big, and so I went for the UZI.

MassMark
April 22, 2007, 01:38 AM
You will love it!...Congrats! Get onto UziTalk and start buying mags like there's no tomorrow. There's a ton out there and they're still cheap. Stock up on ammo, (if you haven't already) and shoot the bejeebus out of it... :)

Retro
April 22, 2007, 01:33 PM
MassMark, has anyone ever considered mounting a 4x scope on the UZI, and if so, I would like to see a picture of it and its grouping.

AK103K
April 22, 2007, 02:07 PM
I've shot both (full auto) and have always found the MP5 much more shootable. (Its also a lot more versatile) The UZI's always seemed heavy and clunky to me, but thats a personal thing. I do own a converted HK94/MP5.

The difference here between the MP5 and the UZI is a fist sized group in the head vs a chest sized group at COM. With good ammo, the MP5 will make 4" +/- head shots at 100 yards all day long. I've found Federal 9BP to be very accurate for precision shooting. The MP5 is easily scoped, and firing from a closed bolt, makes it a lot easier to place your shots.

Ammo can make a VERY big difference too. I've shot a lot of the old Norinco "China Sports" brand that was fine for blasting, but would not shoot under 12-15" at 100 yards. Some other brands are not much better. Just like anything else you want precision from, your ammo also has to be up to it.

One thing I've never seen any other sub gun do, at least to the extent that the HK's will is, shoot tight, multiple "groups" when fired in bursts. At 10 to 15 yards, if you shoot a three round burst each time, using the same aiming point, the HK will give you three very tight, slightly separate, distinct groups, that each appear to have been fired separately on their own. The first group will be at your aiming point and the next two just slightly up and to the right(right handed shooter).


Open bolt SMG's are not hard to shoot well with, they generally are not as precise as, or as easily shot as, the closed bolt guns. They also have a different manual of arms that you have to pay attention to if your used to closed bolt semi/select fire guns.

Jack19
May 4, 2007, 07:49 PM
This exact topic exists over at Uzitalk.com. It's been there awhile and has some good info.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 4, 2007, 08:08 PM
I've fired both versions (full-auto) and the MP5 is the clear winner in my view. However, I don't think the MP5 is so much better that it warrants the current price disparity that it enjoys in the U.S. market. The Uzi is probably a better value in terms of NFA weapons.

The Uzi is more of a chugger in full-auto and you notice the slower cyclic rate. The MP5 is a nice fast cyclic rate in a tight group and a steady push. AK103 described the results well.

innerpiece
May 4, 2007, 08:31 PM
thers more than one reason special forces units SWAT units etc, now use MP5's before Uzi's..

weight and cyclic rate, aswell as ergo's are all won by the HK.

Uzi's are definetly great weapons, n Id love to own one, but id probobly get an mp5 first..

as for effective range..
would anyone here wanna be shot at with any platform of 9mm at 100yds? how bout 200?
not me... getting shot is getting shot.. causes ALL kindsa problems for ya!..

ip.

Evil Monkey
May 4, 2007, 10:27 PM
Can a 9mm even do anything at 150-200 yards?

No joke. I don't know if it will injure you well enough to kill you. Can it?

HorseSoldier
May 4, 2007, 11:08 PM
I don't think it bleeds off energy that rapidly. Not a great trajectory, but if you did hit at that range, it will do some damage.

AK103K
May 5, 2007, 08:20 AM
Can a 9mm even do anything at 150-200 yards?
Oh, I think it will still make your Mom nervous and put your eye out. :)

Seriously though, with a scoped MP5, eye-nose triangle would be a pretty simple shot and I doubt you will get up afterwords.

Ballistics wise, using Federals 124 grain Hydra Shok as an example, its still moving at just under 1000 fps at 100 yards.

I also think you'd be surprised at how little a hold over you will need at that distance, even from a pistol. The 9mm only drops about half (around 6-8") of what the .45 does at 100 yards.

CleverNickname
May 5, 2007, 05:25 PM
If we could buy brand-new HK and Uzi machine guns as private citizens, then I think the MP5 would be the better choice. It does have better ergonomics, and the closed bolt does help in first shot accuracy.

However, this isn't the case, and we're stuck with the transferrables that are in the registry. The fact is that an Uzi carbine is currently about $7,000, and an MP5 is over double that. The MP5 isn't twice the gun that the Uzi is. Plus, Uzi parts and magazines are much more available than MP5 parts and they're cheaper too. I also like the fact that the Uzi's barrel can be swapped out in 30 seconds whereas it takes a trip to a gunsmith to swap out an HK barrel. The Uzi also has a .22 conversion kit.

I've owned an Uzi and an MP5 in the past, I only own the Uzi now. :)

AK103K
May 5, 2007, 06:53 PM
It is tough not to "cash out" on the HK's and other things right now. I have friends that have been and I've been considering it. $18000 give or take now, is better than $0 at a politicians whim and signature at the next "hypometer" event.

It would be nice if the 86 ban went away, even better, reopen the amnesty, so we can get all those nice bring backs that are now surfacing as the old boys are dying off, into circulation, but I really doubt we will ever see that.

I'm just glad I was born when I was and grew up with people who had, or had access to, things that make a kid of any age drool. Unfortunately for my kids, I got them hooked early on something as addictive as drugs, and now, even with good jobs, they cant afford them. (at least now, they buy the ammo. :) ) Its a sorry thing the way things have gone, and continue to go. One more generation and it will be done, its just amazing how fast its accelerated, and how little resistance there has been. Its a scary thing how easily the American people have been whipped.

Oh well, whos got the beer and whos on wrassling tonight? ;)

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