I Need Some Legal Advice: Huge Firearm Purchase.


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Deer Hunter
April 23, 2007, 08:49 PM
Alright guys, I'm in the need of some advice.

My father wants to get into a firearm transaction with another guy (of the seedy type, part business man part con artist who's in court for illegal gambling operation charges and needs money). This other man knows a dieing man who's wife is in need of funds. This dieing man is the owner of 76 firearms. My father handed me a list to look up prices, straight low-ball. I've looked up 44 of them, and so far I'm seeing 22,000 dollars. This man has some really rare stuff, like a Marlin .30 caliber carbine, 8" Colt Python, Belgian Brownings, etc. I'm guessing at full price his entire collection would probably go for 45-50 grand. I'm not all up for ripping an old dieing man of money, and I told my dad I'd have to see some of the specimens to get a more correct price (antiques, rare WWI and WWII pieces, etc). If this goes through, my family (some of the guys in the family, most of which don't know half what they should know to even touch anything in this collection) and the ringleader con-type will give 15 grand to this guy for the whole collection.

This guy has some Galils, pre-ban. IMI UZIs (multiple), Cobray M11s, etc. I think some may be class III stuff, but I can't be sure until I see them. Pre ban Colt AR-15 A-2s, Schmidt Rubins, etc. This is a big firearm purchase that my dad would simply throw into the back of his truck and divide within the family so they can go sell them for full price at gun shows. I am HORRIBLY against this entire set up. Not only do I think it is wrong to rip a dieing gun owner off, but to buy a gun just to sell it is a sin.

Can anyone help me out? Is this legal? Moral?

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PinnedAndRecessed
April 23, 2007, 08:55 PM
Not only do I think it is wrong to rip a dieing gun owner off, but to buy a gun just to sell it is a sin.

Can anyone help me out? Is this legal? Moral?


If you truly believe this, as I do, then you are morally obligated to inform the family of the dying man/the dying man what's about to transpire.

James 4:17

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
KJV


Rest assured, the con man has another con within the con to burn your family. You'll not only be saving your soul, saving the $$ of a dying man, but also the $$ of your father.

Consider this passage:

James 2:15-16

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
KJV


I think you must not only inform the gun's owners of what's happening, but also to volunteer to help them to dispose of the collection in an equitable manner.

Avenger29
April 23, 2007, 08:57 PM
Tell the family!

SIOP
April 23, 2007, 08:58 PM
From a legal standpoint, buying guns to resell them makes you a dealer and requires a Type 1 FFL.

Deer Hunter
April 23, 2007, 08:58 PM
I understand all of that, and I'm going to fight to see that this doesn't happen. I think the old man has kids, and if so they should be the ones getting the firearms. The wife is in need of money (possibly for medical bills incurred), so I'm guessing that's why this sale was brought up. I'm going to contact them if things begin to transpire, but first I'll need to do a bit of lieing to this old dirty illegal casino owner to get the names out of him.

And if it went down and if we did begin to sell them, it'd be under private transactions. But I don't like the fact that it would be so many.

Happyshooter
April 23, 2007, 09:01 PM
Con men don't just con one side of a transaction. You are also being conned.

lacoochee
April 23, 2007, 09:03 PM
Under common law and the uniform commercial code as an "expert" you are morally and legally bound to inform the seller of the "real" value of his collection, anything else is actionable. Not the retail value, but the wholesale value less transactional costs et cetera. The class III stuff would need to be transferred differently than the rest of the collection, don't take possession until you have the proper paper work and the weapons have been checked against the registry.

This is not to say that you cannot make a profit, you just can't steal it.

What I would do is call another honest agent or two and give the sellers number and an idea of the type of the collection, they will quickly set the seller straight and save you all kinds of heart ache. Whether or not you choose to tell your father and the antagonist in this story is up to you personally I would feel no obligation to do so, sometimes silence is the better part of valor.

Also, I wonder what the old guy has been telling his wife all of these years about the value of his collection, LOL.

ilbob
April 23, 2007, 09:10 PM
A few random thoughts:

If by "full price" you mean some blue book or other inflated valuation, the $45-50k might well in reality mean $30k.

It is not unusual for a seller to get a cut, maybe 15-25%.

If the dying old man gets $20k for his collection, it might well be a fair deal for him.

The con man could be scamming both sides of this deal.

The best bet for the old geezer is to take them to a reputable gun dealer who can put them on consignment, or sell them off on one of the Internet auction sites.

It does not appear to me that you have the necessary expertise to be putting a value on these guns in any case. just MHO.

shotgunkevin
April 23, 2007, 09:13 PM
Are you certain there even ARE any guns? Personally, the whole story sounds CONcocted.
This other man knows a dieing man who's wife is in need of funds. Never in my life have I described anybody as "dieing". "Ill", "doing really bad", "cancer stricken", sure, but never "dieing."

Run, do not walk, away from this "deal." It isn't a deal, you won't receive any guns, you won't be an innocent victim when it goes to court.

SCAM

SuperNaut
April 23, 2007, 09:16 PM
We are always talking about trusting your instincts here on THR, this situation seems no exception.

Rumble
April 23, 2007, 09:17 PM
If you're starting off describing one of the parties as a con artist, I think you have all the information you need. Walk away, and get your dad to walk away, soonest.

Chad
April 23, 2007, 09:19 PM
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that to enter into a firearms transaction with a person "of the seedy type, part business man part con artist who's in court for illegal gambling operation charges and needs money", that involves multiple firearms and an unknown 3rd party is absolutely insane.

If you can find and advise this 3rd party without getting further involved then that would be a good thing, but otherwise run away, very fast.

It sounds like someone just asking to get busted.

BullfrogKen
April 23, 2007, 09:32 PM
Anything too good to be true usually is.

Ask your father how he got to his position in life not realizing this. Sometimes greed gets the better of us, and that's exactly why a con artist is so successful pulling his cons.



<edit - I would move this to L&P, since a discussion like this actually is the mission of that subforum, but I'm afraid it'll get lost in the mudpit L&P so often is, so I'll leave it here.>

Deer Hunter
April 23, 2007, 09:39 PM
After a rather heated argument with my father, I informed him that he would be an idiot getting into this transaction. He really doesn't know anything about it other than that the old man would put him into contact with the seller. I don't like the situation at all, and I'm gonna stay out of it. I've urged him to do the same. I got some information from the con guy and, to my father, it was like I went behind his back.

If I don't go behind his back, how am I going to watch it? Heated argument, blah blah, I've urged him not to do it. I'll keep on if he keeps with it.

Deer Hunter
April 23, 2007, 09:41 PM
And He's not seeing the whole situation clearly, and he says that I'm jumping the gun and making guesses that I shouldn't be assuming, since we "don't know anything" about it.

I swear I don't have much respect for that man right now, so I gave up for tonight.

fatelk
April 23, 2007, 09:47 PM
Con artists like to appeal to a person's greed. Greed can override common sense.
If the "dying" guy has that nice of a collection, he has some idea of what it's worth. The kind of money involved would be worth auctioning them off. At the very least he could find someone to pay to take good photos and put them on gunbroker or the like, rather than entrust them to some seedy character.

Try to get you dad to look past the greed and see the risk. I would definitely tell the family, if their really is one. It's tough to cause problems with your dad, but sometimes one needs to take a stand.

I have seen many times con artists rip off the elderly and it makes me sick. Someone works their whole life for what they have and some callous dirtbag comes along and takes it from them when they are the most vulnerable.

theken206
April 23, 2007, 09:49 PM
"I think you must not only inform the gun's owners of what's happening, but also to volunteer to help them to dispose of the collection in an equitable manner."

+1

Titan6
April 23, 2007, 10:27 PM
Let us try the logic test here. So the seller can not find anyone in all of ETX to serve as an agent except a guy awaiting charges?

The seller's agent is just looking to make a quick 5 grand by selling to your dad instead of making much more by selling to to a dealer?

You feel wrong about the transaction? You should that alone would make me walk away. But if not...

Let me tell you about the frozen accounts of the royal family of Zomunda in Nigeria. I am a lawyer and require assitance from you for which you will receive sum of not less than $3 million US dollars....

Deer Hunter
April 23, 2007, 10:38 PM
I'm not going along with it, and I'm trying to get my dad to see that, Titan. I'm using objective logic to see this, all he sees is "Oh, they need money, we could help (read, rip them off) them out of a jam by doing this, and Bob's a good guy, I've known him for blah blah blah"

He then told me about how he once bought a Camaro for 200 bucks, drove it for a year, and sold it for 1900. He's trying to justify it, but I'm not backing down. I'm going to do my best to stop it. If he does so much as contacts any of my relatives, I'll call them and call the whole thing off.

And yeah, out of all the people that could have heard about it, This guy did. And these people don't live in ETX, they live closer to central TX.

ATW525
April 23, 2007, 10:45 PM
From a legal standpoint, buying guns to resell them makes you a dealer and requires a Type 1 FFL.

+1

If your family doesn't have an FFL, then what you're describing is a federal crime. Buying 76 firearms to resell at a profit at gun shows is not going to go unnoticed by the BATFE, even if it's all private transactions (they have agents who go to gunshows specifically looking for this kind of thing).

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