I just got asked one I've never heard before.


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Pax Jordana
April 23, 2007, 11:42 PM
Went to sbux with my buddy John tonight. We talk a lot about lots of things. About a year ago I got him into shooting, he's just about ready to make his first purchase, etc etc. So we got to talking about VA Tech.

Of course, if nobody's there on sunday then we're all monday morning quarterbacks. Both of us have lived lives thankfully devoid of life's uglier tendencies, and while John talked of heroism, I maintained it's probably different when the bullets are flying, and admitted I might well hide out and wait, or flat out haul it off the scene.

So most of us here would shoot to save ourselves. More still would shoot to save our loved ones. I think some among us might have a little too much Die Hard Syndrome, and shoot to save a stranger, or a bunch of 'em. In a situation with an active threat, exposing oneself to it puts one at risk of being injured or dying. At what point does Making The Shot trump staying alive? IS there a point at which this happens?

Kindly discuss, thanks in advance.

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cpaspr
April 23, 2007, 11:49 PM
I don't think any of us REALLY know, until it's forced upon us. Only then will we know what we're made of. Like the CCW holder at the Tacoma mall. He had a permit, he carried, he drew, then he re-holstered and verbally engaged the shooter. And got shot 5 times.

I think I know what I'd do, but I won't truly know unless, and until, it's forced upon me. All any of us can do is be as prepared as possible, physically and mentally. And if we need it, really need it, hope we have what it takes.

19-3Ben
April 23, 2007, 11:52 PM
Once the following criteria have been met, i'd like to think I'd have the balls, and presence of mind to take the shot:
1)A bad guy is threating someone with death or greivous bodily harm
2) I am certain that the threat is real, and I am not misinterpreting something else. (I would hate to shoot a "rapist" in the park, only to find out it was a couple acting out a dirty fantasy or something.)
3) I have reasonably exhausted any other means of neutralizing the threat.(by "neutralizing", I do not mean killing. It can be talking a knife out of someone's hand, getting police, or simply running away.)
4) I can reasonably, and within a margin of safety make an effective shot to stop the threat.
5) That shot is needed R.F.N. to minimize casualties.

Once those are met, I think I'd be ok to shoot. Of course, if I was actually confronted with that situation, i won't be thinking as clearly as I am while sitting in my warm bedroom at 11:00 at night. But I'd like to think that I would have the presence of mind.

Biker
April 23, 2007, 11:57 PM
I'm not going out of my way to protect the till for some 7 Eleven, but if a guy is walking around shooting people, I'm pulling a trigger. How could you not?
Much depends upon terrain and situation, but if it's happening in front of me, I really see no choice. Am I gonna take off seeking out a shooter? Not likely. Good chance I'd get shot by another citizen or a cop. Or, I might mistakenly shoot another citizen trying to track down the shooter.

But if I *know* what's happening, I mean *know it*, I'm putting out rounds.

Biker

SoCalShooter
April 23, 2007, 11:58 PM
Well I am not sure what I would do, but if I was armed I do believe I would attempt to do something. However until I am in the situation I am not sure. But I do know that I could not live with myself if I did nothing.

Titan6
April 24, 2007, 12:00 AM
I guess for me it comes down to doing or not doing what will let me sleep at night. I sleep pretty good most nights.

bensdad
April 24, 2007, 12:02 AM
I hope to God I never have to find out whether I have the stones for it.

I've read here and on other boards that lots of practice can prepare us to better handle a bad situation, should one ever arise. I try to get to the range every week, and I plan on doing some IDPA this summer. That's really about all I can do.

dfaugh
April 24, 2007, 07:42 AM
I hope to God I never have to find out whether I have the stones for it.

I know I could do it, and (possibly unfortunately) also know I would feel morally obligated to protect another from a "crazed gunman".

Now, don't get me wrong (and I've had this discussion with my best freind who says there no point in her having a gun, as she would hesitate to use it), the LAST thing I wanna do is shoot someone. However, IF I'm in a position where I'm holding a loaded gun, I've already committed to shooting if needed....No hesitation, no remorse.

mek42
April 24, 2007, 07:55 AM
In my code, protecting others is higher on the moral priority list than protecting self. I'd like to think that any hesitation on my end would be due to legality considerations. I am sure that if I do hesitate to consider legality issues a question that will arise will be, "Can I afford the resulting costs of legal defense?" Unless I win the lottery soon, the answer to this will be "No," and I will find myself in a moral quandary - follow my code of "Protect Others when possible" which is near the top of the list or "Pay bills on time / fiscal responsibility" which is also near the top of the list.

In the end, the cost of potential legal defense is a far more important deterrent from "taking the shot" than the resulting risk to my health and survival.

JLStorm
April 24, 2007, 07:58 AM
It isnt my problem that someone else who I dont know made the CHOICE not to defend themselves or carry the tools to defend themselves in a deadly confrontation. I think shooting in defence of someone else is a good way to get sued and loose a LOT of money. And unless a new law is passed that makes the one you save responsible for all court costs and law suits, you will get screwed after they get saved.

I really hope that if that situation arises I can just stay out of it unless the threat comes my way and that I could sleep at night knowing that while someone may have died because of lack of tools to defend themselves, I still have a roof over my head, and can still support my family because I havent lost everything in a law suit. Sadly I have a feeling I would naturally be compelled to act and save another human being, but I hope I can just mind my own business and remember that the victim made the choice to be unarmed.

That being said, if it was a situation involving a large group of people like at the mall in Utah or if the victim was a child I would act and suffer the consequences later, but at least I would be able to sleep at night, even if I didnt have anywhere to sleep anymore because I had to sell my house and use my life savings when the fanily of the perp sued the pants off of me.

rocinante
April 24, 2007, 08:09 AM
I don't really know. The last thing I did that had any heroics about it was totally reflexes without any forethought if that says anything. We were at a waterfall with my family and my brother's family. My wife is the nervous mama hen type and was watching the kids. She shreiks because my nephew was about to slip on the rocks and fall into a really nasty white water. I leaped like a freak and got him but I was going to go in with him if it came to that.

Would I leap for strangers? If it was a woman or child I think so. Women and children first is deeply engrained in me. I can say with honesty I am a really good dad that has a real sheep dog mentality. I do know and feel the old saying a coward dies a thousand deaths though. There have been a few times in social situations I traded licks for a stranger woman getting slapped or called down some ******* for treating their child way too rough. But face death or surrender my life for a stranger? I doubt it. I lost my dad to an accident when I was ten and I do not want that pain on my children. If the odds of me dying are 90,50,20, 10%? maybe. I am pretty confident for my wife or kids I would willingly take my exit visa off the planet. I could not live with such shame any way. I think.

Mr White
April 24, 2007, 08:19 AM
I'd like to think I would. Can't say for sure w/o ever being in that situation.

Like biker said, I 'm sure not ognna be a hero to keep a store or even a person from losing a few $$$, but to save a live or lives in immenent danger, I'd view that situation a lot differenty.

Chad
April 24, 2007, 08:46 AM
I agree with the thought that if I "know" for certain what the situation is I hope I could make a good shot.

I'm not sure how I'd feel if one or more people died because I wasn't sure of the situation, but that too I hope to never experience.

DragonFire
April 24, 2007, 09:12 AM
I think some among us might have a little too much Die Hard Syndrome, and shoot to save a stranger, or a bunch of 'em.

I'm not sure that shooting to save a stranger automatically qualifies for the Die Hard Syndrome, and I'm sorry if you feel that way.

But (as Biker explained) if I know what's going on, I hope I act to protect a stranger as I would pray someone would to protect my family if I've not around.

Does that mean I'd go running into a shootout, or that shooting would be my first or only response? No! But I also won't bury my head in the sand until I'm personally threatened.

I think this is one of those issues that you either understand or you don't.

Bones11b
April 24, 2007, 09:47 AM
I think to myself more and more that I am no longer fit for living in cities. I never had to use a gun to stop a confrontation here in america but I have found myself in situations where I put myself in danger for others only to regret it afterwards. Society is a tricky thing as those you try and protect sometimes resent you for it.

Imaginos
April 24, 2007, 09:52 AM
EVERY shooting situation is conditional. I cannot think of any time when someone has all of the facts, so we will go with what we know at the time.

A person sitting in a classroom/office hears what could be gunfire occuring within the building. To me that is Condition Orange, and I would start getting myself into a position to face the most likely avenue of approach a true threat would use to get to my location. That's going to be one of the doors.

If conditions evolve that a shooting is actually occuring (multiple shots, screams, sounds of panic), Condition Red steps in and its time to start piling furniture in front of the doors and/or looking for a direct way out of the building like a window or fire exit. If no exit is available, hunker down and wait for help.

No way am I going to go running around looking for the shooter. To go on the offensive against an armed person, you really need to have your gun in hand, and any cop running in after a shooter is NOT going to ask questions before he shoots you.

If the shooter comes through the door of my room, self-preservation is going to be my ONLY concern and I'll shoot. If saving my own bacon saves others, fine. I'm doing my best to make sure that I go home alive. If 10 people in the room are all armed, the loon will be lucky to get anyone.

IMHO, sheeple love direction, and the best thing a CHL holder can do is to attempt to direct an effective defense of the immediate area. Barricading and/or organizing an evacuation seems to be a more effective way to save lives (including your own) than going hunting.

jh9x18ky
April 24, 2007, 09:59 AM
I dont think anyone truly knows how they would react untill the situtation presents itself. I have thought about it, and decided before getting a CCW permit, that if you are going to carry, you need to be capable both mentally and physically to use the weapon. I have a CCW license btw. One of my favorite sayings....... "The NEXT to last thing I would ever want is use a weapon to harm someone...... The last thing I would want is to have harm or injury happen to my family, friends or myself because I did nothing to prevent it." As far as using a weapon against a stranger, in a crowded public surrounding..... Only as a last resort.

ptmmatssc
April 24, 2007, 11:06 AM
The laws in my state are decent as far as self defense and defense of others is concerned . In a life or death situation of another person , I would make the choice to defend that person just as I would hope someone else would do for me .


Physical force in defense of a person

1. A person is justified in using a reasonable degree of nondeadly force upon another person in order to defend himself or a 3rd person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful, nondeadly force by such other person, and he may use a degree of such force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose. However, such force is not justifiable if:

A. With a purpose to cause physical harm to another person, he provoked the use of unlawful, nondeadly force by such other person; or

B. He was the initial aggressor, unless after such aggression he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so, but the latter notwithstanding continues the use or threat of unlawful, nondeadly force; or

C. The force involved was the product of a combat by agreement not authorized by law

2. A person is justified in using deadly force upon another person:

A. When the person reasonably believes it necessary and reasonably believes such other person is:

(1) About to use unlawful, deadly force against the person or a 3rd person; or

(2) Committing or about to commit a kidnapping, robbery or a violation of section 253, subsection 1, paragraph A, against the person or a 3rd person;

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