Hunting big game with AK47


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DWTL4EVER
April 24, 2007, 03:38 AM
Your thoughts?

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ConfuseUs
April 24, 2007, 03:46 AM
Just get close enough for the shot and you're good. :)

Bitmap
April 24, 2007, 08:52 AM
With the short sight radius it would be more of a challenge.

I suspect it would be more "sporting" using that than the super-magnum with a 10x scope that old what's-his-name prefers. You know who I'm referring to.

Have fun and put your bullet where you should.

Just make sure that you comply with any magazine capacity restrictions in the area you plan to hunt. Also, make sure semi-autos are allowed.

rbernie
April 24, 2007, 09:10 AM
Define big game..... Thin skinned and small-boned (e.g. deer) inside of 250 yards? Sure. I use 7.62x39 for most all of my deer and hog hunting. But I'd not want to use it on anything outside of 200-250 yards or larger than 400lbs or so, and certainly not on anything that can stomp, claw, or chew the livin' snot outta me (other than the lighter cats).

Put a good optic on it to counter the bad iron sights, and a good example will display adequate practical accuracy for hunting use.

Bitmap
April 24, 2007, 09:21 AM
posted by rbernie "Put a good optic on it to counter the bad iron sights"

Now what would be the fun in that? ;)

Gun Wielding Maniac
April 24, 2007, 09:33 AM
I've taken a few deer with an AK, as have friends. Even *gasp* a 5.45x39mm AK. It really is all about shot placement. One good thing about the AK's short sight radius is that it does seem to get that front sight on target quicker then certain other rifles. Of course, being a short gun, it is also more handy in deep bush.

You'll know whether or not you should take the shot when the time comes, based on your own abilities. Just get in plenty of practice OFF THE BENCH before hunting season ;)

DWTL4EVER
April 24, 2007, 03:27 PM
How about ammo? What is your choice?

Blakenzy
April 24, 2007, 05:05 PM
I once saw a documentary that showed poachers taking african elephants with AK's. If I recall correctly there were quite a few of them peppering a herd from a helicopter. Long time ago, can't remember details.

eliphalet
April 24, 2007, 05:21 PM
My recommendation would be go by a hunting rifle if you can afford one if not sell the AK to buy one.

I read once about a guy shooting brown bears with a 22 too but it did;t make it a smart thing to do.

7.62X39 is a pitiful poor deer round, Whether it will kill or not isn't the question, it is just so many far superior rounds available why use it?

DWTL4EVER
April 24, 2007, 06:08 PM
I know............ but I want to talke about this.

EricTheBarbarian
April 24, 2007, 07:01 PM
i dont see why people think its such a bad choice. Alot of people i know use an sks with large amounts of success and that is the same round. Just because it looks scary and has iron sights doesnt mean you cant take a deer with it. The ballistics are similar to a 30-30 and people have taken deer with that round for decades. i say go for it. dont sell it and buy a politically correct deer rifle. if you do youll be kicking yourself when you cant just go and buy aks anymore because of a ban. good luck

Bearhands
April 24, 2007, 07:31 PM
just my take...... if you NEED a semi-auto to kill a deer(or anything larger)... you shouldn't be hunting. There's a big difference between hunting and killing. But I am probably biased because in Pa, semi-autos are not allowed. Make the first shot count.

R.W.Dale
April 24, 2007, 07:39 PM
7.62X39 is a pitiful poor deer round, Whether it will kill or not isn't the question, it is just so many far superior rounds available why use it?

You do realize that at any range over 50yds a 7.62x39 is MORE powerful than a 30-30 and we all know what a poor deer round that is:rolleyes:


For ammo use Wolf's 154grn SP. GOOD STUFF

eliphalet
April 24, 2007, 09:05 PM
You do realize that at any range over 50yds a 7.62x39 is MORE powerful than a 30-30 and we all know what a poor deer round that is

What makes ya think so?

Art Eatman
April 24, 2007, 09:54 PM
If you use hunting-type ammo, and have become skilled enough with the rifle that you can reliably hit inside a six-inch circle out around a hundred yards or so, the 7.62x39 is adequate. The usual "field position hasty rest" deal, not benchrest. And "reliably" doesn't mean every now and then. :)

rbernie
April 24, 2007, 09:56 PM
How about ammo? What is your choice?I've heard that the Wolf SP stuff is a bit frangible for hogs but probably OK for deer. I handload my own, using Hornady 123gr SP for deer and Sierra 125gr for hog.

DWTL4EVER
April 24, 2007, 10:06 PM
What is the best SP?

R.W.Dale
April 24, 2007, 10:08 PM
What makes ya think so?

My rifles, chronograph and ballistics software

30-30 vs 7.62x39

154grn wolf

100yd ZERO = -6.8" at 200yds @1205 FTlbs
*************************
150grn Corelokt

100yd ZERO= -7.6" at 200yds @858 FTlbs
*************************
170grn Corelokt

100yd ZERO= -8.3" at 200yds @989 FTlbs
*************************

The wolf load has the same energy at 100 yds as a 170grn 30-30 bullet. These figures DO NOT take into account the rather overly optimistic factory velocities on 30-30 ammo

In fact the $4 per box wolf has almost identical energy and trajectory as the 160grn leverevolution

eliphalet
April 24, 2007, 11:19 PM
If I was to hunt with a 7.62X39 I would use a premium ammo and of course hit vital areas. under those circumstances it would work fine but I would consider other options.


Krochus,

Run over and take a look here. Good info, easy and fast comparisons.
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

MinScout
April 25, 2007, 04:08 PM
The catridge is probably capable, but the AK47 is no hunting rifle.

Cosmoline
April 25, 2007, 04:14 PM
For ammo use Wolf's 154grn SP. GOOD STUFF

Ditto that. It's a far cry from 123 grain ball fmj.

but the AK47 is no hunting rifle.

If loaded properly, there's no reason it wouldn't serve as a hunting rifle in timber and brush. A good AK will get 2 to 3MOA, which is adequate and on par with most old .30-30's.

EricTheBarbarian
April 25, 2007, 05:24 PM
If I was to hunt with a 7.62X39 I would use a premium ammo and of course hit vital areas.

wouldnt you want to hit the vitals no matter what caliber you are using?

eliphalet
April 25, 2007, 05:45 PM
wouldn't you want to hit the vitals no matter what caliber you are using?
I was attempting to be nice, if not I would have given my true thoughts on people that would hunt a big game animal an AK.

Cosmoline
April 25, 2007, 06:00 PM
A rifle is a rifle. The animal doesn't care about the political baggage attached to what firearm you use.

benEzra
April 25, 2007, 06:17 PM
just my take...... if you NEED a semi-auto to kill a deer(or anything larger)... you shouldn't be hunting. There's a big difference between hunting and killing. But I am probably biased because in Pa, semi-autos are not allowed. Make the first shot count.
It has nothing to do with the action type. The goal would be to shoot once and only once.

In states that allow hunting with self-loaders (like here in NC), 7.62x39mm seems fine to me as long as you are willing to get close enough to the game to be within the performance envelope of the relatively low-powered cartridge. An AK lacks the power to let you kill a deer from the next zip code.

Here's a civilian AK lookalike in a hunting-style configuration, with a 4x scope and 5-round hunting magazine:

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/uploads/1120356158/gallery_260_23_16765.jpg

'Card
April 25, 2007, 06:17 PM
I'm on record here saying (frequently) that I don't think 5.56 is a good choice for deer hunting, but I can't understand why anyone would have a problem hunting with a 7.62. That's the ballistic equivalent of the most popular American hunting cartridges. As far as it being shot from an AK... who really cares? As long as it's accurate enough that you can hit the deer with it. The rifle doesn't matter. The cartridge matters.

just my take...... if you NEED a semi-auto to kill a deer(or anything larger)... you shouldn't be hunting.
I don't NEED my .30-06 Remington 7400 semi-auto, just like I don't NEED my waterproof boots, don't NEED my Gore-tex jacket, don't really NEED a scope, and don't NEED my nifty little whiz-bang GPS unit.

But I sure as hell LIKE them. :cool:

Besides, when it comes to semi-autos and deer hunting, I say "Why not?" Rounds are cheap. The gun is accurate and reliable. I'm a big believer in shooting often, and with great enthusiasm. :D

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2007, 06:44 PM
Krochus,

Run over and take a look here. Good info, easy and fast comparisons.
http://www.remington.com/products/am...on/ballistics/

Yes I'm framilar with that page in fact I user their 30-30 data, but it only allows you to compare REMINGTON products, So you can only compare to remingtons very very crappy underloaded 7.62x39. In my opinion it's silly to go to a domestic mgfr to buy 7.62x39 after all you wouldn't turn to the Russians to find good 30-30 so why in the world would you do the opposite with their pet cartridge.

Domestic ammo manufacturers do 7.62x39 as much a disservice as they do 8x57 by putting out weak underloaded crap

eliphalet
April 25, 2007, 08:22 PM
So you can only compare to remingtons very very crappy underloaded 7.62x39. In my opinion it's silly to go to a domestic mgfr to buy 7.62x39 after all you wouldn't turn to the Russians to find good 30-30 so why in the world would you do the opposite with their pet cartridge.

If I was looking for a quality ammo I doubt I would look to a Russian manufacture that is stamping out metal cased ammo buy the boat load for that quality.
Their(Wolf) 154 soft point is only 2104 FPS but unlike Premium ammunition makers that test their hunting ammo. I would worry Wolf's "soft point" hunting rounds are not what they should be. Have we seen testing to say I am wrong on that? Can you point us to that data?

Remington's 150 grain cor-loc 30-30 is 2390 FPS almost 400 FPS faster with what I know is a good hunting bullet, and data I feel I can trust. Even the 170's are 2200.

I have an AK and a pre 64 Winchester 94 in 30-30, that I have killed deer with. I have not with the AK and odds are I never will.
I guess one could call Remington's ammo what ever they please, but I seem to recall several dozen game animals I have personally shot using that ammo, and my conclusion is they make a pretty good bullet.

Again we are talking a primarily cheap made third world gun with who knows what quality ammo compared to a quality American firearm and ammo.
You hunt with what you want I will do the same but you can be assured a Ak will not be my choice. If you want to lug one around and have everyone in the woods thinking what I know darn well they will be thinking and saying about you and your choice of "hunting rifle" go to it.

We had a guy come upon us once carrying a SKS during elk season, I would have not cared to have been the recipient of the remarks I heard after he walked on down the road, and I tended to agree with what I had heard.

That is one of the great things about this country we are free to make so many decisions on gun ownership and use. I like that freedom but I do try to make good choices.

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2007, 08:51 PM
You'll never see the velocity Remington lists in a 20" barreled 30-30 not even close, Like 250fps less, I have seen this over a chrony numerous times. 170grn 30-30 loads seldom break 2000fps in my 20" rifles

Where as I've chronographed wolf's 154grn sp at just over 2200 fps in a 18" barreled gun. But what makes the deal is Remington's 150grs soft point bullet has a BC of only .193 compared to wolf's .3302. In other words the 30-30 bullet will shed velocity-energy MUCH much faster than the Wolf ammo.

Bottom line is a AK variant WILL do everything a winchester 94 will do. Someone using a 30-30 on elk has no business whatsoever talking down to someone using an SKS as they are both bottom rung choices with no real difference in performance between them. I've used both on game and I can state with conviction that 30-30 and 7.62x39 do the exact same thing to game.

I've taken that High quality 7.62x39 Core lokt ammo and sprayed several 8" groups through a rifle that normally shoots 1.25" groups with handloads and 2" with Wolf. That same ammunition chronographs almost 400 fps SLOWER than Russian made ammo of the same weight. Domestic made 7.62x39 ammo is JUNK pure and simple (good brass though):D . If it's a Russian gun shoot Russian ammo in it


I was attempting to be nice, if not I would have given my true thoughts on people that would hunt a big game animal an AK.

Your name wouldn't happen to be Zumbo would it:fire:

marksman13
April 25, 2007, 10:02 PM
I have a few friends who use an SKS exclusively when hunting in heavy timber, and I plan on doing the same next season. Do I have more accurate rifles in more traditional hunting platforms? Sure. I am choosing to use the SKS for the nastolgia factor. Whether some of you believe it or not, for some of us a rifle is more than a brand name. Not every hunting situation calls for a tack driver with magnum ballistics. Nothing burns my a$$ like a gun snob, slinging their opnions at the rest of us. If you can't find facts to make your argument, perhaps you should stay out of the fight. The OP asked if hunting with an AK variant was possible. Nobody has said that the AK is the perfect deer rifle, but several have been able to prove that it is quite capable. Different strokes for different folks. There is no need for one to shove his beliefs down another's throat. If you like your bolts and levers, fine, nobody has told you put them down. Why would anybody slam someone else because of their chosen platform?:cuss: :banghead: :fire:

Cosmoline
April 25, 2007, 10:57 PM
Sorry for defending the AK, I guess. Not sure why it's verboten.

eliphalet
April 25, 2007, 11:32 PM
<Art wuz here>

Thank you
I should of known when to stop.
With appoliges to all

Waywatcher
April 26, 2007, 12:10 AM
just my take...... if you NEED a semi-auto to kill a deer(or anything larger)... you shouldn't be hunting. There's a big difference between hunting and killing. But I am probably biased because in Pa, semi-autos are not allowed. Make the first shot count.

There is more to it than that. Have you considered that somebody might choose an AK because it fits them better? Or that the size of the gun and recoil of a gas actuation makes it possible for people other than an average american man to hunt comfortably? Just because someone uses an auto doesnt mean theyre an unethical hunter who doesnt value their first shot.

P.S. I dont hunt with a semi-auto and it is a personal choice--which is how it should be.

Waywatcher
April 26, 2007, 12:14 AM
The catridge is probably capable, but the AK47 is no hunting rifle.

Why not? Because this military rifle was designed 50 years after your military rifle that you use for hunting? All modern 'hunting' rifles owe their roots to military rifles, just remember this small fact when you're so quick to judge.

Waywatcher
April 26, 2007, 12:18 AM
I was attempting to be nice, if not I would have given my true thoughts on people that would hunt a big game animal an AK.

Please do.

I'll share mine: They use what they own because they can and they want to. It may be their only option. Judging a person's character by their rifle's appearance is very prejudicial; I hope we are above that.

EricTheBarbarian
April 27, 2007, 12:02 AM
im curious as why some people think an ak with iron sights isnt sporting but using a bolt gun with a scope you can see other galaxies with in some magnum caliber is. Ive never even had a chance to take a good second shot at a deer when hunting anyways, semi auto or not. Sporting means something different to everyone. If you can only afford one gun youre far better off getting an ak because not only is it sufficient for hunting deer and other things, its a good all around shtf and self defense rifle. If you like to go out and shoot and just let rounds fly youre going to have alot more fun and money leftover than a bolt action that costs 14 dollars for a box of 20. The gun isnt all that expensive and neither is the ammo. Ive never had a dud in my wolf (crappy?) steel cased ammo but i cant say the same about the remington core lockts. If you need more than one shot to take a deer its not sporting? for years people hunted deer with spears. now thats real hunting.

benEzra
April 27, 2007, 09:21 AM
If you want to lug one around and have everyone in the woods thinking what I know darn well they will be thinking and saying about you and your choice of "hunting rifle" go to it.

We had a guy come upon us once carrying a SKS during elk season, I would have not cared to have been the recipient of the remarks I heard after he walked on down the road, and I tended to agree with what I had heard.
This attitude is precisely why I have never taken up hunting. I have enough stress in my life, and I don't need a bunch of judgemental people adding to it because I don't own the latest uber-magnum sniper rifle, or slamming me behind my back for hunting deer with a vaguely military-looking weapon while they themselves are hunting with military-style, military-derived bolt rifles in military calibers like .308 and .30-06.

Now, I can see arguments against using .30-30 or 7.62x39mm for elk-sized game, but the rifle style has nothing to do with it.

I own a civvie AK and a 5-round hunting magazine. Don't want me to hunt deer with it? Fine, I won't hunt, I'll stick to target shooting. Enjoy your sport.

Art Eatman
April 27, 2007, 01:02 PM
benEzra, the best way to deal with naysayers is to grin and show 'em what you shot.

People have been telling me for over forty years, "But, Art, that won't work!" Well, I beat 'em for sports car autocross and race track trophies. I busted feral cats at 400 yards. I've killed a couple of dozen deer each with my .243 and the '06, mostly one-shot kills and neck shots. Same for making a living in Terlingua, for that matter. Same for retiring when I was 45 years old.

Other folks' opinions are generally worth what you paid for 'em.

Except mine, of course.

:D, Art

benEzra
April 27, 2007, 03:11 PM
Art, good advice. Thanks.

ArmedBear
April 27, 2007, 03:42 PM
LOL Art

The .30-30 lever gun originally became so popular because it allowed quick followup shots and would work on deer as far out as you could aim with iron sights, and then some. It was developed from the design originally used primarily by special military units in the Civil War, the 1860 Henry, sometimes referred to as the "first assault rifle" because it was the first light, rapid fire, medium range, high capacity rifle in military service.

I'm fond of lever guns.

But the AK fills a VERY similar niche as a .30-30 lever gun. VERY similar, just a few decades newer.

I doubt anyone will buy an AK specifically for deer hunting (Saiga maybe). But if you already have one, there's no need to run out and get a 336 to shoot deer in the woods once a year.

bearmgc
April 27, 2007, 05:10 PM
I have a friend that has been using an SKS for years on deer, and even shot a few elk, head shots. Not my choice, but it works for him, and he brings home the game year after year. Never had to track down wounded game. So what's to protest? A rifle is a tool.

MudPuppy
April 28, 2007, 01:59 AM
I built my AK, I shot a deer with it, I cleaned it myself, brought it home and grilled it for the family.

I fired one shot. I don't know about deer elsewhere, but here if you miss that first shot they're immediately running at about 40mph and you don't get a second shot no matter what the action type.

An AK is a good hunting rifle. Zumbo and like minded folks may not agree, but I don't see why someone would take a fancy woodstock expensive bolt gun into the woods either!

AKs come in a variety of calibers too--the PSL is an AK action on steroids and is in 7.62x54r.

And if you're afraid of what other hunters think of your choice and go with the lever action, will you also worry about what the soccer moms think of that choice??? For shame...tsk tsk.

ArmedBear
April 28, 2007, 08:34 AM
I built my AK, I shot a deer with it, I cleaned it myself, brought it home and grilled it for the family.


You cooked your AK for dinner?

What did THAT taste like?

Art Eatman
April 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
Anybody's who's a fairly calm, cool and collected hunter, who's pretty skilled at finding game within reasonable range for his skill level, and who's sorta "married up" with his rifle, is gonna do pretty good no matter what rifle or cartridge is being used.

"Albert Average", OTOH, might have problems.

I've only handled, never shot, an AKM/SKS critter. I think it's obvious that I shouldn't grab one and go hunting. (And, with tri-focals...) By the time I went to serious deer-hunting, way back when, I'd run thousands of rounds through various bolt-actions from .22 to '06.

There's a lot more to the whole deal than "just" the rifle or "just" the cartridge. I've had deer walk under the tree in which I was sitting. I've sneaked up to within ten feet of a fat little buck. How much gun, then, is "enough"? :D

Art

Deer Hunter
April 29, 2007, 02:13 PM
My first buck was taken with an SKS. I don't want to hear how it's a horrible thing to use against a deer.

I was using FMJs, too. At 9 years old, I took whatever my dad gave me.

tnieto2004
April 29, 2007, 03:20 PM
I took my first 5 deer with SKS .. Very good deer hunting round

bearmgc
April 29, 2007, 04:14 PM
I can't believe that some members of the hunting community have an issue with AKs and SKS's for hunting. Every rifle has its origin somewhere in an ancester military rifle. As long as the round is kept within a reasonable range, its a perfectly good hunting round. Guys coming home from the war used the springfield 01-A1, and Mausers, and Garands for hunting. Now is not the time to get elite about which rifle is appropriate for hunting. There are many reasons why someone would use a military rifle for hunting, and economy is one of them. Any reason is a perfectly ok reason though.

Plink
April 29, 2007, 04:18 PM
We had a guy come upon us once carrying a SKS during elk season, I would have not cared to have been the recipient of the remarks I heard after he walked on down the road, and I tended to agree with what I had heard.

He'd have deserved the remarks if he had been carrying a fine, scoped bolt action in that same caliber also.

Art is right about grinning and showing them what you shot. I'm forever getting ragged on by the scoped inline crowd when I take my traditional sidelock loaded with patched round ball hunting. I seem to have no trouble dropping my game and unlike many of them, I don't have to track mine.

I tend to hunt with different guns for different reasons. The first deer I ever killed was back in the '70's using a military surplus 8mm Mauser. One year I hunted deer, hogs and elk with a FAL. Hunting deer in thick brush, it's often an SKS. Lately I tend to hunt with a traditional muzzleloader even in modern rifle season. I have my share of "real" hunting rifles, but I haven't used them for hunting in years. Spent a number of seasons hunting with an XP-100 pistol in .308. Variety is the spice of life.

Clipper
April 29, 2007, 07:33 PM
When you get down to it, even though the 7.62X39 can't muster up 30/30 horsepower, neither can most popular deer-killing pistol calibers, and nobody screams about how unsuitable a .44mag is...

Plink
April 29, 2007, 09:34 PM
When you get down to it, even though the 7.62X39 can't muster up 30/30 horsepower

It can't at the muzzle, but put them both 100 yards out and the 7.62x39 starts to pull ahead. It's a fine little hunting round within it's limits.

351 WINCHESTER
April 29, 2007, 10:54 PM
AK's don't belong in the woods at lease not where I hunt. From time to time I see someone with one, usually a kid that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I saw a guy hunting with one and asked if he was any good with it. Hell yes, he replied. I set up a bleach bottle at 75 yards and asked him to hit it. He fired 3 shots and didn't even come close. I pulled out my old marlin .30-30 and nailed her clean. AK's have a stigma about them as being bad guns and shouldn't be seen in the woods. I think they are fine for a self defence weapon, but please don't take to the woods for hunting.

R.W.Dale
April 29, 2007, 11:07 PM
Boy howdy this thread really brought the Elmers out in force:mad:

http://www.weeklyreader.com/readandwriting/content/binary/elmer%20fudd.gif

If it's a legal firearm that meets the requirements for hunting in that state you're a shelf righteous busybody if you're worried about someone elses hunting TOOL


I know plenty of people who are poor shots with traditional hunting arms, it's the shooter not the firearm.

I pulled out my old marlin .30-30 and nailed her clean.

WOW you mean you actually hit an almost 9" square target at a whopping 75yds. WOW what a crack shot:rolleyes:

Clipper
April 29, 2007, 11:14 PM
351, guys like you are counterproductive...Do us a favor and stifle it.

ArmedBear
April 29, 2007, 11:25 PM
I'm forever getting ragged on by the scoped inline crowd when I take my traditional sidelock loaded with patched round ball hunting.

Funny. Seems like it's the other way around, here.

I set up a bleach bottle at 75 yards and asked him to hit it. He fired 3 shots and didn't even come close. I pulled out my old marlin .30-30 and nailed her clean.

What, exactly, does that have to do with the gun?

He can't shoot. HE shouldn't be in the woods until he learns. Not with an AK, not with a 336, not with a scoped Dakota.

'Card
April 29, 2007, 11:28 PM
I set up a bleach bottle at 75 yards and asked him to hit it. He fired 3 shots and didn't even come close. I pulled out my old marlin .30-30 and nailed her clean.
...and that proves what exactly? One time I saw a guy do pretty much the same thing with a .30-06 Remington bolt-action with a scope on it. So going by your logic (or lack thereof) because of one doofus who couldn't shoot we should all conclude that bolt-action scoped rifles are worthless for hunting?

Lousy hunters are lousy hunters. It doesn't have a damned thing to do with the gun.

MudPuppy
April 29, 2007, 11:45 PM
AK's have a stigma about them as being bad guns

Actually, a lot of folks see all guns as bad guns. I get to deal with stupid restrictions on "sporting guns", so excuse me if I feel the need to hunt exclusively with AKs, HK-91s, and FN Fals to protect YOUR right to own that traditional firearm. (In case that was too subtle, your guns are next on the ban list once the pesky black plastic ones are criminalized.)

That story about some guy not being able to hit a bleach bottle at 75 yards explains a lot--but not much about the accuracy of an AK...

bearmgc
April 30, 2007, 10:09 AM
Eliphalet, Don't PM me calling me a liar. In fact don't ever PM me again. You are being very rude, and I have better things to do than delete your messages.

eliphalet
April 30, 2007, 10:28 AM
Excuse me I was careful not to call you a lier and didn't want to say that I think your blowing smoke in the forum here and that your so called friend is NOT shooting elk in the head with a SKS. I have hunted plenty of elk over 45 plus years big game hunting, elk don't just hang out and let you shoot em in the head that is unless it is a canned hunt then I guess a 22 would work. I may be wrong but you strike me as a anti hunter type hoping to cause trouble my apologies if that is not so but ya come off like that to me.

Just cause a certain gun/ caliber will work or kill doesn't mean is should be used for every occasion. We need responsible posts from knowledge folks here I would think as lots of newbies and the world of PETA types are watching reading I try to post responsible knowledgeable answers in area I know something about personally in my answers.

I would feel bad telling potential hunters that a barely adequate caliber is AOK and have guys wound and lose animals. That IMHO is not good for hunting as a whole and the person wounding the animal. I have been with someone that did that and it took till the next day to find a hurt wounded deer. That was the last time that person EVER went hunting. Sorry I just like to see folks off on the right foot so to speak.

R.W.Dale
April 30, 2007, 11:13 AM
I try to post responsible knowledgeable answers in area I know something about personally in my answers.


You mean like you did in the .357 thread http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/laughing-019.gif

eliphalet
April 30, 2007, 11:31 AM
You mean like you did in the .357 thread

Yes, I own, have owned and or shot a 357 many years. i have tested different bullets with different loadings and shot them into varying deferent substances to see what said bullets would do. HP or Wad-cutters respond quite differently. Yes you are correct, a 357 will kill, and probably would anything that walks in North America under perfect conditions but as the post above says doesn't qualify it to be a " good" deer round. I am no expert I just have many years of firearm and hunting experience under my belt but if you will do some checking I think you will find that even the "experts" would not call a 4" 357 an adequate or the proper deer hunting round. I think it is important to be a responsible hunter/sportsman. Sorry you disagree.

R.W.Dale
April 30, 2007, 11:37 AM
I think you will find that even the "experts" would not call a 4" 357 an adequate deer round. I think it is important to be a responsible hunter/sportsman. Sorry you disagree.

If by what's responsible you mean taking what some "expert" in a glossy hunting rag happens to need to advertise that month as gospel then, YES I strongly disagree.

Clipper
April 30, 2007, 01:37 PM
Most of those 'experts' were fine with the .357 in the '70s, until the .454 came out, then the bar seemed to rise and now the .357 was shunned by the same guys who sang it's praises a couple years earlier. Now the .41mag is considered 'marginal'...The only reason they haven't started dissing the .44mag is because they'd be bad-mouthing Elmer Kieth and would be 'Zumbo'd' for it. If you think those idiots are the be-all and end-all, there's little hope for you...

As far as the AK goes, it's not my favorite platform, and I have other, more suitable rifles, but as long as I'm in effective range, have the right ammo and am sure of my shot, I'll live with the guilt just fine, thanks. And the day I worry about the opinion of some AH I meet in the woods, is the day I'll put on an antler hat and wait for him to shoot me.

marksman13
April 30, 2007, 05:19 PM
351winchester, I don't suppose your real name ryhmes with Dumbo does it? Your bogus preachings and teachings sound an awful lot like someone else I've been reading about lately. I've read alot of post on here against the use of an AK or SKS, but have yet to see any REASONS!!! Do any of you nay sayers have logical reason why the AK or SKS is ineffective as a hunting rifle? 351winchester, if you are ever down my way let's break out my old Norinco SKS and put it next to your Marlin in the name of good natured competition. Of course we'll stretch the range out to 200 yards and start from there. The kind of babble you guys are spouting sounds an awful lot like the anti gun crowd, lot's of emotion and no facts.

Plink
April 30, 2007, 05:34 PM
AK's have a stigma about them as being bad guns and shouldn't be seen in the woods.

That makes about as much sense as "Red cars have a stigma about them and shouldn't be seen on the roads". The platform doesn't matter, the cartridge and shooter are all that's important.

The folks you saw that couldn't hit the side of a barn with an AK couldn't have hit it with anything else either. Bad marksmanship is bad marksmanship, regardless what gun they use. The inverse is also true.

351 WINCHESTER
April 30, 2007, 11:58 PM
Thanks for all the comments. Oh, did I offend anyone? Duly noted. I don't care to see anyone hunting on public land using an ak. As I stated earlier ak's have a bad image with the general population - much worse than a hunting rifle. They just look evil. I wonder how far you would make it down the road with an ak in your gun rack before being pulled over by some leo? I wonder how many people would call 911 and report you. That's just plain stupid. Now put a lever action or bolt, or pump or a "legiment rifle" in the same gun rack and truck. Yea, it looks a lot better. For the "dumbo" who hates all guns it may or may not make a difference. I'm sure ak's are great rifles for killing people and I have no doubt they will kill deer. Heck, one day I may own one, but you're not gonna see me in the woods with it - not hunting anyway. Just not my weapon of choice. It gives hunters a bad image. Besides, I don't ever recall seing a 5 round mag. for an ak. If that's true they are illegal in our state and if anyone cares to do some research, the same rule probably applies to most other states.

Think of it this way. Some hunter accidentally kills another hunter with his ak. The media is gonna have a field day. We have enough problems with irresponsible idiots and crazies. We have to maintain a good immage with the general public. We are the minority and it's getting worse. Hell, I love guns, I've got bunches of them, but I no longer have them in my gun rack for all to see, even though it's legal. We are outnumbered and it is our obligation as responsible gun owners not to make things worse. Imagine if you're a game warden and you see someone with an ak. What do you think he's thinking? Probably calling for back up. Not good. What ever happen to good old COMMON SENCE??? If it were legal would you hunt with an rpg just because you could? Why not a .50 browning?
How about a machine pistol. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Show some
consideration to the general public and don't do stupid things that's going to make things worse for all of us. Things are tough enough as it is.

For all you ethical hunters, my hat's off to you. For all you dummies, use a little common sence and don't screw things up for the rest of us.

eliphalet
May 1, 2007, 12:23 AM
Their gonna scream to the rooftops 351 but your correct. Common sense and good hunter responsibility is always a good thing for all gun owners, hunter or not.

ArmedBear
May 1, 2007, 12:35 AM
Besides, I don't ever recall seing a 5 round mag. for an ak.

They sell them. For hunting.

Saigas don't look "evil", and they make 5 rounders for them, too.

If it were legal would you hunt with an rpg just because you could? Why not a .50 browning?
How about a machine pistol.

What does that have to do with anything?

An AK shoots a perfect woods/brush deer round. It's an autoloader, just like a BAR, a 7400, or a Ruger Deerfield. No parallel with a .50BMG, an Uzi or an RPG. This "argument" in favor of "common sence (sic)" doesn't hold water.

Do you also object to someone hunting with a Dirty Harry revolver?

If you are afraid of our public image as hunters, that's one thing.

But if you think a civilian AK with a 5-round magazine as sold for hunting is somehow more "evil", or less sporting, than a .30-30 lever gun in the woods, you can't read a ballistics chart.

That said, I hunt (for) big game with a walnut/rosewood .30-06 bolt gun with a scope. But if you worry about the image of hunters, go bug the Benelli shooters. Nothing uglier than a black Benelli in the field.:p

marksman13
May 1, 2007, 12:46 AM
351, that "image" that you are so afraid of is exactly what we are fighting from the anti crowd. It is utter nonsense. I guess you don't realize that to a large portion of the US population, your bolt action or lever action rifles are just as scary. When they start voicing a disdain for those will you start using only a bow? Will you give up your bow for a pointy stick? Will you finally give up your dangerous, evil pointy stick and start hunting game with your bare hands? The people who claim that AKs, SKSs, and AR15s are not suitable for hunting are the most dangerous threat to our RIGHT to keep and bear arms. You are willing to throw everyone else to the wolves to protect your image and quite frankly your ignorance makes me sick. This type of eliteist crap and this idea of appeasement of the anti crowd is not only arrogant and ignorant, but selfish as well.

What do you say to the poor man who has only one rifle for defense, hunting, and plinking? Milsurp guns are cheap, efficient and reliable. Should the poor guy not be allowed to hunt because he can't afford the latest, greatest, whiz bang bolt action? Should his rights be infringed upon so that the "image of ethical hunters" is not tarnished? Surely you don't really feel that way?

I love hunting with my SKS and Mosins. They have a nastolgia factor which gives them a uniqueness and character all their own. The history behind these guns gives witness to their efficiency. Perhaps all this means nothing to you, but it does to me, and I could give less than a %@&$ about offending you with their pressence! My offer still stands of my SKS against your Marlin.

Plink
May 1, 2007, 02:23 AM
If it were legal would you hunt with an rpg just because you could? Why not a .50 browning?
How about a machine pistol.

Why not a 7.62x39?

It's ballistically similar to the .30-30. I'm sure you don't have a problem with .30-30s.

An AK with a 5 round magazine (They do make them, I own several) is legal in many states. With a 5 round mag, there's no difference between it and a semi-automatic "hunting rifle" as made by Remington and others.

H&Hhunter
May 1, 2007, 03:29 AM
7.62X39 is nothing more than the communist reinvention of the .30-30. The AK is the working mans gun of the Eastern Block. Just like the Win-94 used to be here.

So basically what you've got is a semi auto .30-30. Accuracy is about the same as many lever guns ballistics are about the same as a .30-30 and if it is legal, I would presume that you'd probably have to have a 5 round magazine capacity as that seems to be the norm in most states, then get after it.

I don't personally have any affection for the AK because I've never played with one that was very accurate. But it would not stop me from hunting with one if I had the chance.

yongxingfreesty
May 1, 2007, 03:43 AM
i dont know about 75yds, but 50yds is a piece of cake with the ak on irons.

351 WINCHESTER
May 1, 2007, 04:20 AM
marksman13

The image of the ak wasn't invented by me. The fact of the matter is the ak is viewed by more people as probably the most evil rifle of modern man.

Now don't go calling me all kinds of names. That's for kids. I'm not, nor have I ever been accused of "throwing anyone to the wolves" to protect my image. My image is a result of good upbringing, hard work, kindness and respect for others and love of God and country. The wolf cares only for himself and his pack.

I never said or implied that the ak isn't capable of killing a deer. I'm not going to argue as to whether a .30-30 is better than a 7.62x39. Both are entirely adequate for deer hunting. I've killed a lot of deer with my .30-30and I think the longest shot was just a tad over 100yds. I've never found her lacking. I didn't know that anyone made a 5 rd. mag. for the ak's. My mistake. That doesn't change my opinion one bit. I disagree with your statement that a lever gun or bolt gun is just as scary to the anti gunners. Just about any person in the world knows what an ak is and what it's main purpose is. Im not nocking the ak. It's a fine weapon for killing people and that is where the trouble is bud. It's the kind of rifle that you can give to a kid and in no time he can learn how to load and shoot it and he doesn't have to perform any maintance on it, or miminal maintance. It's the stigma attached to the ak that is bad. "Arrogant, ignorant, selfish" - NOT HARDLY.

I have no problem hunting with a military weapon. I've got a very nice lee enfield no.5 which I think is an outstanding hunting weapon and a fine piece of history to boot. If I made you sick that's your problem. Call your doctor. That just shows your inmaturaty, lack of character and lack of good old fashion common sence. We can argue this point till hell freezes over and it's not going to change my way of thinking or yours. The fact remains that the ak is viewed by many as an "evil" weapon and therein lies the problem. Might I sugguest that the ones that hunt with ak's have a little respect for the rest of us as we have our image to keep up by keeping a low profile so they don't add fuel to the fire. It might even save their lives. Imagine being pulled over for speeding while on your way to your favorite hunting spot and some leo sees an ak sitting next to you. I wonder whats going thru his mind. I'll bet his hand in on his weapon. Sure hope it's not a glock with a 3.5 lb. trigger. Hope he's not full of caffiene. As Americans we need to do everything we can to insure that our God given right to keep and bear arms isn't infriged upon cause thats the only recource we have if our government gets much worse and if you think for one moment that name calling is going to help than you need to rethink. I don't own or care to own an ak. I'm thinking of getting an ar. I'm not a benchrest shooter, but a hunter and a target shooter. I have no problem with you or any other law abiding citizen from owning whatever legal firearms you choose. As for your invitation to have a shooting contest, sadly, I must decline. I don't know you and you don't know me. Wouldn't want to ruin your macho image anyway. No, I'm not the greatest shot in the world, but I can hold my own. I, too, love hunting with older rifles. Two of my favorites besides my marlin .30-30 is one of my .351 winchesters and a lee enield no. 5. Funny how the game wardens are impressed with non evil guns. Not so funny when they run across some hunter armed with his ak.

Plink
May 1, 2007, 05:55 AM
I guess it's the whole "image" thing that is over my head. I don't use an AK to hunt with generally, but I have used several other guns equally as scary to the antis. I'm not out there to appease them, I'm out there to hunt. The very fact that I have a gun displeases them, and the fact that I'm hunting displeases a whole other group of them. I hunt responsibly, regardless of the platform I choose. But I hunt to please myself, not them.

I don't let others perceptions influence my decisions. The fact that most of my friends ride Harleys because of the "image" doesn't influence my decision to ride rice burners because of the performance. I'm content driven and what others think is entirely irrelevant. Remember that your Enfield was also "a fine weapon for killing people" in it's day. Most of our guns were.

What's most important is that hunters and shooters behave themselves and act ethically. To show ourselves as the responsible, upstanding people that most of us are. If we give in to the media villifying our weapons, guess what? Your inoffensive bolt action is next. They're already being called "sniper rifles" by the media, and afterall, it's not sporting to hunt with a sniper rifle, is it?

Hunting with these guns also gives some legitimacy to their sporting purposes. Remember the Zumbo affair? He blatently called AR-15's terrorist guns and said nobody hunts with them. He was wrong and he learned a hard, fast lesson because of it. There's no real distinction between a "battle" gun and a sporting one (your Enfield is a good example), other than personal taste. Personally, I love blued steel set in fine walnut, but I certainly don't think that those are the only guns that serve sporting purposes.

Remember also that there are as many reasons that people hunt as there are hunters. Some hunt for trophies and nothing but the biggest will do, others keep some sort of "score" like it's a game or competition, some think there should be some type of "fair chase" involved, while some others are just there to harvest an animal for meat, and there are always some who are just there to kill something. I'm sure some of the AK owners fall into that group, but for sure a lot of the "take them at 500 yards with uber scopes and hyper magnums" folks do too.

I guess the bottom line is do we really let them tell us what to think? Do we let others set the "stigma" and "image" for us? It's our sport, not theirs. Lets just enjoy it, each in our own way, with whatever platform we choose. As long as we do so responsibly.

marksman13
May 1, 2007, 11:50 AM
Thank you, Plink. You just saved me a mouthful.

351, why are you so willing to let a non-hunting public dictate the tools that we hunters use in our pursuit of the sport we love? I wouldn't be concerned at all if an LEO pulled me over with a legally owned AK in my truck. It's no different than if I was pulled over going to the range with it. Your logic is flawed. You are correct, however, in stating that the name calling is unjustified. Nothing boils my blood like someone telling me when or how to use MY guns. Can't you see that you aren't doing any of us any favors by continuing this stigmatism? You do realize that one day we won't be allowed to use AKs. Next there will be no semi-autos. After that, they will come for scoped rifles. And soon after, we'll all be hunting with muzzle loaders. Small increments my friend. One piece at a time until they have the whole pie.

Instead of bashing the AK, perhaps you should try one. Show others that it is no different from any other semi-auto hunting rifle. If a firearm is legal to own, legal to use, and is all someone has, why should he not be allowed to hunt with it? We have to break sterotypes, brother, not perpetuate them.

I apologize for the name calling, but I must firmly disagree with your logic.

ArmedBear
May 1, 2007, 01:18 PM
"Arrogant, ignorant, selfish" - NOT HARDLY.

Really?

Arrogant:
Oh, did I offend anyone? Duly noted.

Ignorant:
What ever happen to good old COMMON SENCE???

Selfish:
I don't care to see anyone hunting on public land using an ak.

Some people just don't know how to quit when they're ahead. Or at least ahead of where they end up when they keep going.:p

marksman13
May 1, 2007, 01:59 PM
Dammit boy!!! Armedbear, I am rolling on the floor. You owe me a lap top. It's funny how easy it is to shoot holes in false logic.

But really, as right as you are, I guess we should stop the name calling. I would hate for Art to lock such an entertaining thread.

I'll try to get this thread back on topic. The AK-47 along with the SKS are fine rifles for hunting in brush or wooded terrain. I would not want to hunt an open field with either of them, but they are certainly capable of performing well within their limits.

Buy a five round mag if you need to in order to comply with local laws and hunt til your heart is content. Hunting with an AK certainly beats banging and scratching up an expensive bolt action whne hunting in the brush. Post pictures of your success and be sure to include the "evil commie" gun in the photos. Positive reinforcement is the only way to over come a negative stereotype. Good luck.

tmajors
May 1, 2007, 02:05 PM
Alot of people i know use an sks with large amounts of success and that is the same round.

Raises hand

if you NEED a semi-auto to kill a deer(or anything larger)... you shouldn't be hunting.

How about a bolt action that has as many rounds in the magazine? I know people that can cycle a bolt really bloody fast, so fast in fact you would think they were firing a semi-auto. What about an autoloading shotgun instead of a pump? Thinking you need a semi-auto has nothing to do with it. Semi-auto is a convenience, kind of like a scope, not a necessity.

I have hunted plenty of elk over 45 plus years big game hunting, elk don't just hang out and let you shoot em in the head

That's funny I know two elk that did just hang out and let me shoot them. One was a head shot, and the other was a heart shot. Trick is to not let them know you are there. Seen deer do it too. And no they weren't "canned" hunts either.

RobMoore
May 1, 2007, 03:49 PM
I say if you need a .300 Win Mag with a 10x scope for 500 yard shots on your game, you need to improve your hunting skills. At least an AK forces you to get closer.

ArmedBear
May 1, 2007, 04:02 PM
Here's the thing...

I doubt that someone who has a room full of guns is going to take an AK deer hunting. A Saiga yes, an SKS sure, but not a military-configuration AK. I think pistol grips are a liability, not an asset, in the field.

It's going to be someone who has one centerfire rifle, probably. Most likely, it'll be someone younger who can't yet afford a bolt gun in every caliber, a Ruger No. 1 for the challenge, a couple nice lever guns, etc.

WELCOME new hunters. If we're worried about hunting dying out and being banned by the tyranny of the majority, then don't scare people off. Teach them, don't hate them. Seriously.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't teach ethical hunting, good marksmanship, etc. But snobbery, especially by guys with big overflowing gun safes towards guys without much cash who want to try hunting, teaches nothing.

I say if you need a .300 Win Mag with a 10x scope for 500 yard shots on your game, you need to improve your hunting skills.

Yup. Some equipment snobs aren't the people you want in the field near you, either, especially if you're wearing head-to-toe camo (legal here, but not always advised).

JesseL
May 1, 2007, 04:41 PM
I'm seriously considering taking my AK next time I go out looking for deer or javelina. You can see the list of calibers I've got in my signature, but none of the bolt action rifles I have in "traditional" deer calibers is very handy compared to the little commie rifle.

The last time I went deer hunting I couldn't see much beyond 100 yards in the woods anyway.

351 WINCHESTER
May 1, 2007, 05:03 PM
marksman13

I'm not advocating letting anyone dictate to me as what kind of weapon I use for hunting or any other legimate shooting as long at its legal. I'm just voicing my opinion. I didn't have anything to do with the ak's reputation as an evil gun, but the fact of the matter is that it is true. I guess by now everyone knows my dislike for an ak. This may be due to the fact that I've never owned one or shot one. I see your point - and it is duly noted. I knew I was going to catch hell from most of you guys. Looks like I was too hasty to judge and or and understand where you are comming from. No one should dictate to us what firearm we should use or posess as long as we are within the law. That would just open the door for the anti's to ban semi autos, and hi cap. mags. If a paticular gun is legal than so be it. I was against the assault weapons ban just as we all were. I know the ak's are relaible, easy to maintain and probably fun to shoot, and ammo is dirt cheap. I've shouldered them at my local gunshop and I wasn't impressed with them. Too short for my stature.

OK, I'm eating crow. Let's shake and move on.


I have a lot of hunting buddies and none of them use ak's, sk's or saigas. A few, including myself tried the mini 14, but accuracy was terrible.

marksman13
May 1, 2007, 05:22 PM
351winchester, apology accepted. I'm just glad there is a site where we can be adult enough not to let a simple disagreement bolw up. I think you will find that this site is chock full of friendly, knowledgable people who are more than eager to help. We are also human and tend to be rather stubborn about our opnions. Debates about whether or not a certain firearm is capable of performing certain duties can and do get heated in a hurry. People are quick to blast emotional arguments with no supporting evidence. That said, I respect your opinion and I can see where you are coming from, but as firearms enthusiasts, we must stick together. If we argue it must be based on facts and not emotion or we are no better than the anti crowd.

I apologize if I offended you with my hasty remarks and hope that you wil accept my apology. I tend to get more heated than most here because I as a student I am forced to defend my beliefs and values on a daily basis from the anti crowd. As you can imagine the number of vocal antis has increased in recent weeks. I guess I am just tired of having to legitimize every firearm on the planet.

bearmgc
May 1, 2007, 06:10 PM
If you properly stalk, and sit near a good game trail by a woodsy cerek, you will see many elk, "just hanging around". Its called stalking for a reason. It involves many skills. My second elk was shot at 35 yds on a game trail in the high mountains. It was a bang flop with my 30-06. Some folks need to learn these skills. They will see lots of game and lots of wildlife. An AK will work fine, if the hunter has good markmanship and stalking skills That's why I live in Wyoming.

351 WINCHESTER
May 1, 2007, 10:44 PM
marksman13

Thanks for your reply. Apology accepted. I do tend to be opinionated as you well know. Yes we must stick together because we are right and we are the minority.

I learned something a long time ago "never judge a man until you have walked in his shoes". I don't know who said it, but that's a good quote to live by.

I taught most of the neighbors kids gun safety. I had to confiscate a few bb guns, but that was the parent's fault. Five of them, including my two sons are avid hunters, well just starting out. My youngest got his first buck and got it with a walmart .50 muzzleloader. I saw the deer and asked my son if it was a legal buck as my eyes aren't as good as they used to be. He didn't know the buck was there until I asked him. We were on our way to our stand. He got out of the truck and took aim. Then he waited and waited and I'm telling him to shoot. As God is my witness he shot when the deer was dead broadside to us. He knew he hit him as he heard the round ball thump. We looked and looked for blood. Not one single drop. We must have looked for several hours and Travis said, "come on dad, we're not gonna find him". Seeing how it was his first buck and how much it meant to him I wasn't about to give up. On our way out I told him we were going to make a zig zag course and that we might get lucky.

Travis spotted the buck. Graveyard dead, but no blood, no bullet hole. I noticed a little blood under his tail. From the time he pulled the trigger and the time the bullet hit, the buck did an about face and the round ball entered his anal cavity. I recovered the round ball several inches short of his heart. Talk about a lucky shot. It was around 60 yards. It wasn't much of a rack, but he wanted it mounted and I couldn't refuse.

Thanks for the welcome and the kind words.

Ken

marksman13
May 1, 2007, 10:54 PM
Muzzle loading is something I plan on getting into next season. Don't know if I will actually get a muzzle loader or a single shot 45-70, as MS just legalized hunting with the single shot 45-70s during primitive weapon season. I think it was actually legalized for the past two years. I bow hunt regularly and I definately have an appreciation for the hard work that primitive weapons brings to the table. Don't know if I can turn down that 45-70 though.

If the AK is too short for you, try an SKS. I don't care much for the feel of the AK, but I have alot of respect for them. Being on the recieving end of one does that for you. I think you might find an SKS a convenient brush gun much like your Marlin. By the way, I own a very old Marlin 336C and I agree with you that they make very fine deer rifles.

eliphalet
May 1, 2007, 11:41 PM
as MS just legalized hunting with the single shot 45-70s during primitive weapon season
Wait till you have a elk hit real hard with a muzzel loader, but it's not down, and your trying to get it loaded again as fast as you can. It will change your mind on the 45-70 where you can just drop another shell in. Fun hunting, I found it exciting for sure.

Caimlas
May 2, 2007, 03:50 AM
I've read that it is possible, and not all that rare an occurrence, for bushmen in Africa to kill elephants with a .22LR. They walk up to the beasts quietly and slowly (VERY slowly) so as to not disturb them, and then wait for the right shot angle - and then pop 'em behind the ear towards the opposite eye.

Plink
May 2, 2007, 05:50 AM
Ya know guys, we shooters are passionate about our sport. We're also an opinionated lot. The occasional scuffle is to be expected now and then when we disagree on something. What's most important is that we realize that we're all on the same side. Unfortunately, it's us against them.

I'm an avid muzzleloader myself. In fact I'm a black powder addict. I often think I could easily get rid of all my modern guns and not miss them as long as I had my muzzleloaders. It's a sad, sad, addiction!

I prefer to hunt with a round ball as it forces me to get closer and be more sure of my aim. I rarely hunt with a modern gun anymore, even during modern rifle season.

RobMoore
May 2, 2007, 08:36 AM
Read a Peter Capstick book on what happens to bushmen in Africa who disturb Dumbo.

H&Hhunter
May 2, 2007, 10:18 AM
Don't know if I will actually get a muzzle loader or a single shot 45-70, as MS just legalized hunting with the single shot 45-70s during primitive weapon season.

Marksman,

That would be the final straw in my battle to resist a Ruger # 1 in .45-70.:D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've read that it is possible, and not all that rare an occurrence, for bushmen in Africa to kill elephants with a .22LR. They walk up to the beasts quietly and slowly (VERY slowly) so as to not disturb them, and then wait for the right shot angle - and then pop 'em behind the ear towards the opposite eye.


Camilas,

Whoever wrote that is a serious fiction writer! Have you ever seen an elephants skull?

Now there is one "documented" case of a poacher killing an elephant with .22LR but the way he did it was shoot the elephant in a major artery that runs just under the skin behind the front leg when the leg is an a forward position.

The artery is about the size of large garden hose and apparently will cause an elephant to bleed out if penetrated within several miles.

However I read this in one of Capstick's books and ANYTHING you read by Capstick should be taken with a grain of salt.;)

eliphalet
May 2, 2007, 10:43 AM
I saw a black and white film once of a Pygmy shoving a spear into a very large elephants ribs. by keeping foliage between himself and the animal, staying downwind he was able to get close enough to shove what looked like a spear with a 3 foot or so blade into the ribs. He then backed way keeping foliage between himself and the elephant as the animal was tearing everything near it to shreds. They also noted in the film that this was that mans second elephant and the last man in the village to have done that was killed by the elephant. Also they said it may take the animal three days to die from it's wound. Great piece of film I wish I had it on tape.

marksman13
May 2, 2007, 11:03 AM
H&H Hunter, there is one small flaw with that. Apparently part of the legislation limits the rifle to being a single shot design that was first produced before 1890 or so. I'll look up the exact law and try to post it. It was written to exclude the Ruger #1 and the T/C Encore. The NEF Handi Rifle is perfectly legal as is the H&R Buffalo classic. The 38-55 is also acceptable as is the .44 magnum and the .500 S&W. I'll check to make sure though because I don't want to give out bad info.

innerpiece
May 2, 2007, 12:43 PM
the 7.62 is powerfull. a friend who owns a meatlocker uses an SKS on downed cattle calls.
Ive hit yotes with my SKS out at +200yds, never had to shoot twice, n they dont get back up.

obviously it will be quite effective on deer..

Winchester makes a great SP. and Rem UMC FMJ suprisingly groupes the tightest out of both my SK's.

H&Hhunter
May 2, 2007, 02:55 PM
Marksman,

DRAT foiled again..:D

marksman13
May 2, 2007, 03:32 PM
Yep, H&H, the Ruger was the first gun that came to my mind when the law passed. I've wanted a #1 since I was a kid. I think I'll get one next year in .280. Wishful thinking.:D

ArmedBear
May 2, 2007, 04:57 PM
I'd be thinking about an 1874 Sharps!

http://www.buffaloarms.com/prodimg/SH200.jpg

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3407.htm

A fine firearm.

marksman13
May 2, 2007, 06:25 PM
Yep, Armedbear, I looked at a clone of that Sharps yesterday. It was used, but in pretty good shape, with a 2-7 power Nikon scope mounted on it. Dealer is asking $999.99!!! Way out of my price range and that rifle is super heavy. I think I am just going to buy the H&R Buffalo Classic or keep on bow hunting.

Art Eatman
May 3, 2007, 08:22 PM
Sure is lots of worry about what somebody who didn't pay for either the rifle or ammo thinks about somebody else's SKS/whatever.

If I know the SKSer is a pretty good shot with it, I'm not gonna care much one way or the other. OTOH, if somebody shows up in my desert country hunt camp and thinks he's gonna do much good on running mule deer at 200 or more yards, I'll probably speak to him about his equipment. I'd be a bit suspicious about his judgement and experience.

IOW, situational.

Ya got a 140- to 150-grain bullet, coming out around 2,200 ft/sec or so. That's sort of a low-end cartridge, but no reason it won't work within some rational range of, say 150 yards. You drop down much below 2,000 ft/sec, and the bullet likely won't expand--or not much.

As long as the shooter can do the proverbial ''hit a soda can" and do it almost every shot at around a hundred yards from a hasty field rest, that's good enough for most Bambi shots. That's about all most average shooters can do, anyway, regardless of what they use.

The aesthetics of somebody else's pet play-pretty don't matter much to me. If I didn't buy it, I don't have to like it. If I didn't have to pay for it, who cares what I think?

And, really, this thread's gone on way beyond rationality. :D

Art

marksman13
May 3, 2007, 08:31 PM
This has been a fun thread. It's ended up a thousand miles from where it started and reminded me why I like this site so much. Always an interesting conversation to be had with this bunch.:D

uk roe hunter
May 4, 2007, 12:58 PM
guys, I am one ugly mother. i have a shaved bald head. a goattee beard, tattoos, and in my spare time i build trikes and ride fast motorbikes. so should i be allowed in the woods? when i hunt i wear an old m65 jacket -not the latest musto or real tree jacket, so should i be allowed in the woods?

hell's bells!

surfinUSA
May 7, 2007, 06:06 PM
I use an SKS to hunt pigs with. I use Remington soft point ammo. The only change I made to the gun was to install a Williams fire sight up front and peep rear. It also makes a great backup to my other gun, a sporterized 8mm yugo mauser.

The SKS has become a real popular deer and pig gun in many places in the South.

I would think the AK would work ok. But for me I like the longer barrel on the SKS and the convenient location of the safety.

eliphalet
May 7, 2007, 07:00 PM
"A hunter should not choose the cal, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong"
Bob Hagel

I just happened to read this elsewhere.

surfinUSA
May 7, 2007, 07:18 PM
I believe a hunter shouldn't attempt to rely on caliber to make up for poor skills. All a more powerful gun does in most cases is destroy more meat.

JesseL
May 7, 2007, 08:54 PM
Clearly, anyone hunting with anything less than a 20mm cannon is an unethical hunter.

R.W.Dale
May 7, 2007, 09:37 PM
Clearly, anyone hunting with anything less than a 20mm cannon is an unethical hunter.

A 20mm can be a bit light for those off angle shots, true professionals (magazine writers) recommend nothing less than a 105mm firing HE, with this you should be good out to 500yds or so,beyond that a 155 is needed to pack enough downrange punch to cleanly take medium skinned game

marksman13
May 7, 2007, 11:27 PM
Roger that Krochus, and anything over a thousand yards should be shot with a 155mm HE with a charge 8 red bag sitting behind it. Hate for the damn deer to get away. You could also try the WP round to kill, clean, and cook the beast in one swift motion.

Gewehr98
May 8, 2007, 12:18 AM
I doubt that someone who has a room full of guns is going to take an AK deer hunting. A Saiga yes, an SKS sure, but not a military-configuration AK. I think pistol grips are a liability, not an asset, in the field.

At last count, I have somewhere on the far side of 200 boomsticks in my collection. Last fall, I took a Wisconsin whitetail with my sidefolder AK and 125gr softpoint handloads. One shot in the breadbasket, and he was down. As for the pistol grip, I'll have to remind myself about the whole liability thing, because it caused me no problems, and I gave it nary a thought when I squeezed the trigger.

Why did I use the AK instead of my usual Browning BAR, Remington 700 BDL, Winchester 94, or BSA No5Mk1? Because of folks like Zumbo, and the unbelievably hypocritical hissy fit that some have over learning that the AK works just fine in the whitetail woods. Myself, I wanted to prove the naysayers wrong, and I was pleasantly surprised by the results. I may take a Kalashnikov out into the woods this coming fall, too. I'll use it for supplemental doe tags.

BTW, I have a family friend who is a DNR game warden. Contrary to popular belief, he wasn't too upset to see an AK in his district - far from it. It's no different to him than were the fellow carrying an old Winchester or Marlin levergun. He's more worried that the hunter isn't carrying, or doesn't have, the proper hunting license. Poachers make him mad.

Honestly, sometimes the "stigma" attached to a gun extends only as far as those who would continue to propogate the myths. Those who do so often forget that their beloved tools for harvesting game are little more than spiffied-up variants of a previous generations' battle weapons, "good for hunting people". Oh, the shame. :scrutiny:

amprecon
November 4, 2007, 04:59 PM
To not take your SKS or AK hunting where/when it's legal because of the negative media or opinions of others, then they have beaten you.
If your states' hunting laws state that your firearm is not illegal to use, then take it hunting if that's what you WANT to take, be d*mned what anyone else thinks about it.
They merely do what any other semi-auto rifle does, they just look different, no more, no less.
Some of us cannot afford the high-dollar rifles that others can, the venerable SKS may be the only affordable choice some may have to harvest their game with, to chastize them for using what they can only afford is downright rude and not decent behavior.

I have an AK, along with my more traditional "hunting" rifle, and would not hesitate to use that AK hunting under the applicable conditions.

tinygnat219
November 4, 2007, 08:33 PM
I tell you what though, I tend to be nervous of the folks who go deer hunting with AK-47s with the full banana clip or the 75 round drum mags. Past experience has shown that they are there more for the spray and pray than anything else.

JesseL
November 4, 2007, 08:39 PM
I tell you what though, I tend to be nervous of the folks who go deer hunting with AK-47s with the full banana clip or the 75 round drum mags. Past experience has shown that they are there more for the spray and pray than anything else.

Have you actually seen people do that? I don't even know where using more than a 5 round magazine is legal.

I tend to be nervous of the folks who take a 300RUM or such out for Texas whitetail, thinking this will negate their lack of skill and let them get away with 600 yard shots.

R.W.Dale
November 4, 2007, 08:50 PM
I don't even know where using more than a 5 round magazine is legal.

It's legal here in Arkansas

But I agree with you, those people taking 800yd potshots with a .396 ultrabigblockunbeltedpetitemag worry me much more. That and people who use buckshot. Every hunting fatality I read about in the paper seems to amount to someone getting their ticket punches by a single stray 00 buck pellet

tinygnat219
November 4, 2007, 10:01 PM
VA has no limit on the magazine size for the rifle. Up until just last week, it was illegal to not have a plug in the shotgun so you were limited to 2 in the mag, one in the chamber. Wierd, I know...

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