Man with concealed-carry permit kills robbery suspect in Cleveland


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Ohioan
April 24, 2007, 03:48 PM
I'm not sure if there is a better place for this but here it is.

I love the quote from the grieving cousin of the robber.. quite amusing.
Cleveland is one of the cities in Ohio that had a draconian gun ban in place that was overrode by Ohio's new (and much appreciated) Preemption Law this year...


Man with concealed-carry permit kills robbery suspect in Cleveland
Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:30 AM

Associated Press
CLEVELAND—A man who has a permit to carry a concealed gun shot and killed one of two teenage robbery suspects he encountered on his front porch, police said.

City prosecutors decided yesterday that the 25-year-old Cleveland man was justified and would not be charged in the shooting Saturday night of 15-year-old Arthur Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School.

Buford and another teen approached the man on his porch and one of the youths pulled a gun, prompting the resident to pull his gun and shoot Buford several times in the chest, police said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson from the man as evidence, according to a police report.

Toby Hoover, director of the Toledo-based Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving someone who has a permit to carry a concealed gun under the state's 3-year-old law.

About 30 youths gathered Monday at the intersection where Buford died and set up a memorial. His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned the decision against prosecuting the shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's alleged accomplice fled after and shooting and has not been caught. Police believe a .38-caliber handgun they found in the mail chute of a nearby house belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/2007/04/24/concealed.html


Toby Hoover is a great anti-gun voice here in Ohio.. here is a quote from an article last week... again, this quote is from LAST WEEK, not related to the above article
Toby Hoover, of the Toledo-based Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she hopes the incident will force a rethinking of gun laws at the state and federal levels.

“The tendency is for people to think that only the bad guys are shooting anybody,” she said. “They just do not want to come to terms with the fact that everybody is born a good guy. We don’t know when a human being is going to cross over and make that bad decision. We keep trying to fool ourselves.”

Link to article at the Toledo Blade (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070419/NEWS24/70419021)

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SSTHitman
April 24, 2007, 03:52 PM
Check out this story;

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/117740407596600.xml&coll=2

Personally, I dont see the problem here...punk got what he deserved!

Ohioan
April 24, 2007, 03:54 PM
duplicate

torpid
April 24, 2007, 03:55 PM
A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited
Holdup victim had concealed-carry permit
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Damian G. Guevara and Patrick O'Donnell
Plain Dealer Reporters

Damon Wells is the man gun supporters were imagining when they fought for the right to carry concealed weapons.

He had a permit to carry his gun, and he had the gun on him when a pair of teenage thieves approached him Saturday night on his front porch in Cleveland.

When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest, police said. Arthur Buford, 15, died after stumbling away and collapsing on a sidewalk near East 134th Street and Kinsman Road.

City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged for what appears to be the first time a concealed-carry permit holder has shot and killed an attacker.

Nonetheless, the shooting reignited the debate that flared three years ago when Ohio's concealed-carry law took effect.

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's accomplice disappeared after the shooting and had not been caught as of Monday night. Police found a .38-caliber handgun in the mail chute of a nearby house. They believe it belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson firearm from Wells as evidence, the police report shows.

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "Anytime somebody dies, it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

Irvine said it was "great that a potential victim is able to continue his life instead of having a criminal take it."

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

A man who answered a phone number for Wells refused to comment and hung up. No one answered the door at Wells' home.

Plain Dealer reporters Jesse Tinsley and Brie Zeltner and researcher Cheryl Diamond contributed to this story.

aguyindallas
April 24, 2007, 04:03 PM
Since this happened on the front porch of the guys house...this doesnt seem much like it has anything to do with concealed carry laws.

MD_Willington
April 24, 2007, 04:07 PM
Well I guess Tameka and Arthur were sharing a brain cel, and the cousin had it that day...

Here's a tip, don't go pulling firearms on people who are sitting on their front porch and are willing to use them.

Sounds like guy on the porch also put in some range time...

ZeSpectre
April 24, 2007, 04:08 PM
Just one word for this... SURPRISE!

atomicferret
April 24, 2007, 04:08 PM
So, if i am reading this correctly, someone thinks that this guy should be prosecuted for protecting himself from an armed robber. Yet no mention of prosecution towards the kid that lived.

I am glad that they ruled in favor of the CCW holder.

PPGMD
April 24, 2007, 04:15 PM
Jeez he isn't a kid he was a criminal that pulled a gun on an another person. That person just happened to be a CCW holder that shot the kid before the kid could shoot him.

mek42
April 24, 2007, 04:15 PM
I get angry when I read about people lamenting the fate of the perpetrators of violent felonies by criticizing the person offering resistance to the commission of said violent felony.

It is one thing to express honest grief about the loss of someone close to you who died while committing a felony. This is a normal reaction that I have no issue with whatsoever.

It is entirely different to blame the victim of the attempted felony for offering the best resistance to being subjected to a felony that one is able to offer. In my opinion this is morally reprehensible.

It sounds like this was a good self defense situation. I wish people would leave the victim alone and let him get on with his life. He is probably dealing with enough internal stress over this incident anyhow.

El Tejon
April 24, 2007, 04:16 PM
This article does a wonderful job illustrating the nexus between criminals and antis.

Here we have an anti leader defending a thug and home invader on record.:cool:

Sistema1927
April 24, 2007, 04:17 PM
Good thing: One less criminal.

Bad thing: The Brady Bunch will chalk this up as another "child" killed by a firearm.

romma
April 24, 2007, 04:23 PM
Obviously this criminal will be sorely missed by "like-minded" individuals of his type that he was close too... These people are so engrossed in the thug/robbery lifestyle that it's perfectly normal for one of their family members to rob and threaten people at gunpoint... but when it works out against them, then all the sudden they cry foul! :barf:

grimjaw
April 24, 2007, 04:23 PM
. . . and if the teenager had shot the homeowner, the same griper would complain that 'the gun laws aren't strict enough, otherwise this "child" wouldn't have been able to get a gun!'

jm

Odd Job
April 24, 2007, 04:26 PM
Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.


Ja, and the citizen might be dead instead, right?

romma
April 24, 2007, 04:26 PM
o

Outlaw Man
April 24, 2007, 04:27 PM
Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.
But would they have had the same reaction if the citizen hadn't been armed and his life was taken? It's sad a kid is dead, but a 15 year old knows better (barring serious mental conditions) than to pull a gun on someone.

A similar instance happened near my hometown. A teenager (a little older, but still under 18 IIRC, not that it matters) decided to walk into a gas station with a gun in his hand. He didn't walk out. The kid's mother puts a big article in the paper every year (either on the anniversary of the foiled robbery or on his birthday) about how the clerk took her baby. Sorry lady. When your "baby" is big enough to play adult games he's big enough to handle adult consequences. Same thing applies here.


EDIT: Odd Job beat me to it.

Evil Monkey
April 24, 2007, 04:37 PM
The only thing I'm disappointed with is that the shooter didn't give that little turd a closed casket funeral.

Should have used the Mozambique Drill.

Macpherson
April 24, 2007, 04:38 PM
An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."


I'm at a loss for words...apparently the fact that her cousin was committing multiple felonies at the time has no bearing on what happened?

Unbelievable.

starboard
April 24, 2007, 04:50 PM
I'm at a loss for words...apparently the fact that her cousin was committing multiple felonies at the time has no bearing on what happened?

Unbelievable.

That's like a day at the office for some people - normal, expected, familiar.

Several .40 to the chest.. that's gotta sting. :)

BigO01
April 24, 2007, 04:53 PM
As Forest would say "stupid is as stupid does"

SkiLune
April 24, 2007, 04:55 PM
This is an easy one: justifiable homicide.

cpaspr
April 24, 2007, 05:01 PM
This brings to mind Baretta's favorite line:

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

(I know, Blake forgot his own most famous line, but that's off the current topic.)

rmurfster
April 24, 2007, 05:03 PM
One of the articles quoted here is from the Plain Dealer, which is notorious for it's anti-gun stance and also for its repeated printing of names of those with CCW Permits :fire:

This wasn't the "first time" a CCW permit holder killed someone in self-defense in Ohio as this article falsely states. In fact, prior self-defense shooting were reported in the Plain Dealer!

See: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article-3688--0-0.html

rantingredneck
April 24, 2007, 05:05 PM
I'll bet that if situations were reversed and the homeowner was killed by the robber, the robber's cousin would be arguing against his prosecution for the crime.

Avenger29
April 24, 2007, 05:06 PM
"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Yeah, sure. The shootee is always an innocent child victem who would never harm a fly.

The kid was a criminal plain and simple. A young criminal, but a criminal nontheless. He got what he deserved.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday

A bunch of like minded thugs

This is an easy one: justifiable homicide.

No, its stopping a criminal and defense. Not murder, justifiable or not.

There are only two bad things about this:
1) The perp will now join the statistics as a "child that died from a gun accident"
2) The homeowner will have to live with shooting the perp.

beltslide
April 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
One less criminal in the world! Buford had a gun, and was prepared to use it against a law obiding citizen, he got what he deserved!

WeThePeople
April 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
I absolutely love the reasoning:

If the CITIZEN didn't have a gun, the CRIMINAL might have lived.

That ignores the fact that the CITIZEN might have died had he been disarmed and that the CITIZEN most likely saved countless other CITIZENS by stopping this CRIMINAL.

I know, we've known it all along, but it doesn't decrease my frustration.

Justin
April 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
Let's keep this on the high road, folks.

Thanks.

ZeSpectre
April 24, 2007, 05:11 PM
3) somebody else is going to give the homeowner a hard time.

kellyj00
April 24, 2007, 05:12 PM
kid coulda grown up to go to Virginia Tech. Take criminals off the streets, permanently I say.... I don't care how it's done, but I don't want them anywhere near me or mine.

I've never met an upstanding citizen who committed an armed robbery.

Headless
April 24, 2007, 05:17 PM
Wonder what model S&W he had. Seems like a good shoot to me. Robbing people sitting on their own porch is some really dumb ****...whenever i'm 'sitting on the porch' i'm carrying and only a couple feet away from several more guns. I also fail to see how this is a CCW issue; dude was on his property so could have had the gun anyway, assuming ohio doesn't somehow restrict your ability to carry a gun on your own property Oh well, good thing many criminals aren't too smart or we'd find it much harder to shoot them.

Nekron
April 24, 2007, 05:20 PM
I could hardly believe my eyes when I read that story! The guy kills a criminal who was obviously willing to use deadly force to rob him and the TRUE VICTIM is treated like a criminal?

And then the friggin' paper is interviewing friends/family about what scum the CCW holder is and about the memorial set up in the street for and ARMED ROBBER???

To add insult to injury, the police took his pistol! I hope that wasn't the only protection he had because from the sound of things, he's going to have to worry about reprisal attacks from that little scumbag's kin.

tinygnat219
April 24, 2007, 05:24 PM
Does anyone know if the CCW holder is being sued at all?

Hypnogator
April 24, 2007, 05:36 PM
An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday

Sounds like time for the homeowner to buy an AR or AK with several 30-rd magazines!:evil: :evil: :evil:

Durruti
April 24, 2007, 05:38 PM
Hard to tell until you're in such a situation, but if that had been my cousin, I might actually say the same sort of thing. It's an incredibly emotional situation and it might take a day or two to think straight.

Sad story, but given the circumstances, I'm pleased with the outcome.


Note to Ohioan: I-O!!

Crunker1337
April 24, 2007, 05:40 PM
If someone points a gun at you, what else are you supposed to do?

toivo
April 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
Usually there's some sort of excuse about "Well, it was armed robbery, but he wasn't really going to kill anybody..." This means that the victim is supposed to gamble his life on the good intentions of the person who is robbing him at gunpoint. Not a bet I or any sane person would want to make.

plexreticle
April 24, 2007, 05:54 PM
That guy got the surprise of his short life.

Correia
April 24, 2007, 05:57 PM
No, its stopping a criminal and defense. Not murder, justifiable or not.

Well, the actual legal term is Justifiable Homicide. Because he did kill him, which is homicide by definition, only it was justified by the law. Homicide doesn't equal murder.

yhtomit
April 24, 2007, 06:07 PM
This is an easy one: justifiable homicide.
No, its stopping a criminal and defense. Not murder, justifiable or not.

Right -- that's what he said ;)

Homicide is homicide -- sometimes justifiable. Not every homicide is a murder -- negligent homicide, justified homicide, etc.

This is a sad story, but if events took place as advertised (and considering the source, no reason to think otherwise!) it does sound like the shooting was justified. Sad for the robber's family (who knows, he might have been a nice kid etc, or if not, might one day have been a nice adult), and sad for the shooter, who probably will wonder at least occcasionally whether he did the absolute best thing. But justified nonetheless.

I like the way toivo put it above -- that no sane person would "gamble his life on the good intentions of the person who is robbing him at gunpoint" -- even if it somehow later comes out that the robber "would never had done it, really," or "didn't think it would go that far," or even (since the quoted account didn't say so) that the gun wasn't loaded. Yes, you can see the tip of the bullet in a typical revolver, but if someone waves a .38 at me, I bet I'll believe it's loaded until I'm well satisfied through personal inspection that it's not. (That's the downside to criminals of the four rules -- their guns are always loaded, too.)

timothy

Avenger29
April 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
I've just always heard "justifiable homicide" used in the context of a killing that was needed, but not within the bounds of the law. So please excuse my aversion to using it to describe a self-defense case.

average_shooter
April 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
Maybe someone already asked this, but why would it matter if the shooter had a concealed carry license or not? He was at his home on his property when a couple thugs pulled a gun on him. License or not, I believe the defender would be completely justified here. Was Ohio's previous gun law so bad it barred self defense in one's own home? :confused:

DRZinn
April 24, 2007, 06:43 PM
When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest, police said.Is it me, or does that make it sound (probably intentionally) like he shot the one without the gun?

EricTheBarbarian
April 24, 2007, 06:53 PM
JUSTICE!!! alot better ending that if the police would have arrested him. i wonder if the one who got away will think about robbing someone at gun point again.CCW is dangerous for criminals. if its not safe to walk up to someone and pull a gun on them and rob them what are we going to do? maybe not rob them, thats for sure. isnt situations like this why people get a ccw?

Was Ohio's previous gun law so bad it barred self defense in one's own home?
i think it would have still been justified. the problem with the old laws were that every city made up their own laws like cleveland, cincinnati, columbus, etc. there was no way to really know what was legal. ohio legal was different than city legal. now the state has uniform gun laws no matter where you are but we did have ccw before hb 347 went into effect.

DoubleTapDrew
April 24, 2007, 07:01 PM
If you are going to do grown-up criminal activity be prepared to pay the penalty when you try to rob/kill the wrong person. Teenage criminals will kill you just as dead as an older bad guy will.

BHPshooter
April 24, 2007, 07:45 PM
But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

And there we have it. :banghead: You remember when you were young, when you would play cops and robbers, and the good guy would always win, and everyone would rejoice? These people don't seem to understand that sentiment.

To quote Inspector Callahan, "Nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot."

Wes

Ohioan
April 24, 2007, 07:50 PM
Note to Ohioan: I-O!!
__________________

It takes another Ohioan to pick up on that!! :)




They include the fact that he has a CCW for sensationalism. It's a big debate around here. Especially in the big cities.


Does anyone know of a sight that collect news stories like this? People legally using firearms to defend themselves?\



Cleveland still has a law on the books banning certain firearms. I'm not sure of the details. LE was told not to enforce the laws. Cleveland was going to appeal to the courts about the Preemption law. Maybe the LE was checking with higher ups to see if this magnificent man is going to be the "example"

sw686plus
April 24, 2007, 07:51 PM
What stinks is if the police ruled it justified, they should have given the guy his gun back, pronto. I'll bet he has to go through hoops to get it back. I hope he has a 2nd one in case someone else tries for retribution.

Superpsy
April 24, 2007, 08:02 PM
anyone else notice the psychological tactics used by "The Plain Dealer?" :fire:

A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited
Holdup victim had concealed-carry permit

Note what was in bigger font. At first glance my initial thought was, "oh no, another kid found his parent's gun..." *sigh* and there's no media bias.

atek3
April 24, 2007, 08:10 PM
I'm pretty impressed, the crook had the drop on him, and yet he still drew and shot the person multiple times. Anyone know what kind of training Damon Wells has recieved?

atek3

skinnyguy
April 24, 2007, 08:20 PM
There's a dead kid there, yeah, it's a shame. But the kid decided to become a felon when he picked up the gun, when he decided to pull the gun, most likely to USE it, and when he decided that since he's under 18, he's got all the time in the world to be a bad guy, and go around threatening people.

Wake up call for a bunch of people. Now we no longer have a dead kid- we have a dead juvenile delinquent brandishing a firearm who's time ran out. I wonder how much money he had in his pocket when he was shot. Not much, i'll bet, he spent all of his last holdup. I wonder how much money that belonged to other people he'd already spent. Bet it makes my paycheck look paltry.

I hope that Mr. Wells can recover from his encounter soon, I know it can't be easy for him. I hope that the family of Arthur Buford can soon realize that the outcome of this was ARTHUR'S choice. I hope the press realizes that guns are not evil, it is the brain connected to the hand holding it that is evil.

cloudedice
April 24, 2007, 08:33 PM
Does anyone know of a sight that collect news stories like this? People legally using firearms to defend themselves?

Yep: http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

Henry Bowman
April 24, 2007, 10:00 PM
Does anyone know if the CCW holder is being sued at all?Even the fastest Ohio assault lawyers take more than a few hours to get a complaint on file.

bass806
April 24, 2007, 10:43 PM
Angry crowd right outside his residence and his primary protection has been confiscated by the police!!! This guy should fear reprisals form the dead guy's relatives. I wonder if he is a member here? Does anyone in Ohio know him? I would like to start a collection for a replacement pistol for the guy. I will start this off by offering $50.00. We would need a contact method and a way to know if the guy is willing to accept our replacement. Any ideas? Any other takers? I think this would be a great for us High Roaders to reach out to one of our own.

AlaskaErik
April 24, 2007, 11:47 PM
“The tendency is for people to think that only the bad guys are shooting anybody,” she said. “They just do not want to come to terms with the fact that everybody is born a good guy. We don’t know when a human being is going to cross over and make that bad decision. We keep trying to fool ourselves.”

I simply cannot understand the mentality of the left. They are utterly insane. The only one being fooled here is this idiot.

toivo
April 24, 2007, 11:52 PM
Simple fact: If you point a gun at a cop, the cop is justified in shooting you, for his own self-preservation and in the interest of public safety. Why there should be a different rule for private citizens is beyond me. And I'm considered "liberal" by a lot of people.

buck00
April 25, 2007, 12:16 AM
An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

It's a shame- the home owner was directly threatened with a gun, defends himself, now he has 30 punks outside his house most likely harassing him as if he did something wrong... and now the police have his .40 for "evidence." Great, hope he has a back up.

And typical of the media- did you notice, the perp suddenly isn't a robber or crook, but a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School??

Bezoar
April 25, 2007, 12:50 AM
the home owner was sitting on his front porch minding his own business when suddenly he has to defend himself from two punks who were commiiting :
felonies: home invasion; use of a firearm to commit a crime;
attempted murder; illegal possesion of a firearm
misdeamenor: breaking and entry(putting gun into mailslot);
criminal tresspass; brandishing a firearm;
fleeing arrest

yet the leftists in the media make the punks out like victims. when the real victim is now sitting home apparently defenseless with the threat of gang reprisal.

Kinda seems to be the above crimes with some type of gang initiation going on. I really hope this gentlemen has a good ak/ar type rifle with high capacity drum magazines. Or a friend that can loan him some.

5Wire
April 25, 2007, 12:52 AM
A majority of these, "35% of the homicides committed by offenders 14-17 years old". Kids for sure, killer kids. And it seems that the proportion is increasing.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/multiage.gif

From the Bureau of Justice (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/multiple.htm#multiage) web site.

I didn't see that data in the AP article.

CA357
April 25, 2007, 01:18 AM
The kid was a criminal, fifteen, freshman or Martian, makes no difference. Most of these young criminals commit crimes with impunity because as juveniles, many times all they get is a slap on the wrist. If they do get sent to Juvenile Hall, they learn and refine their criminal education.
Gangs will use underage kids as shooters, knowing that they'll pretty much get off easy. They have their Juvenile records sealed. It's like nothing ever happened. That's plain wrong.
I hate to see the loss of a young life, but he paid the ultimate price for his actions. As far as Tamika or whatever her name is, she should see if the Wizard will give her a brain. :fire:

online2mch
April 25, 2007, 01:57 AM
Sometimes stupid should be painful; or even fatal

Fulcrum of Evil
April 25, 2007, 02:14 AM
yet the leftists in the media make the punks out like victims.

Give it a rest - this is one paper, not all papers. I find it amusing that you can call the news media leftist. Do you really think Murdoch is a hippie?

Trebor
April 25, 2007, 02:25 AM
I've just always heard "justifiable homicide" used in the context of a killing that was needed, but not within the bounds of the law. So please excuse my aversion to using it to describe a self-defense case.

Whoever you heard use the term "Justifiable homicide" to refer to a "killing that was needed, but not within the bounds of the law" was using the phrase incorrectly.

A "justifiable homicide" is when you knowingly cause the death of another human (homicide), but it was required and allowed under the circumstances (almost always self defense). Hence the "justifiable" phrase.

ArfinGreebly
April 25, 2007, 02:52 AM
What the heck is this hang-up on age?

Any time after the age of eight (or insert arbitrary age here) a person can decide to break the rules and do an evil thing.

And the whole "amazement" that a young person could do such a thing -- 'cuz we all know that only older people are evil -- just baffles me.

It's like a mental short circuit. "It is not possible for persons < (age) to murder/rob/rape/assault."

And the squishier we try to make their upbringing, the worse it gets. Over forty years.

I guess we're not applying socialist indoctrination hard enough. More funds! More funds! If we do more of it and do it harder and spend more money on it . . . MAYBE WE'LL GET DIFFERENT RESULTS.

[Insert primal scream smiley here]

And we can't blame them, because they had a bad childhood.

Which we, in our infinite socialist wisdom, enforced on them.

But we mustn't stop them from doing what they want, since that would hurt their self esteem.

I need to stop now. I shouldn't write when the room is spinning.

Odd Job
April 25, 2007, 03:07 AM
Most of these young criminals commit crimes with impunity because as juveniles, many times all they get is a slap on the wrist.

That's what I have always complained about, especially here in the UK.

Zoogster
April 25, 2007, 03:14 AM
Just think, this is a clear cut case of self defense against a FIREARM pointed at someone on thier own property and he gets this response. Imagine if this poor innocent little gun pulling thug had only used a blunt object, or perhaps simply relied on fists and superior numbers to beat this guy down, potentialy stomping him to death or grabbing his gun or another weapon once he was beat down to kill him once he was defenseless. Imagine if he had shot to protect himself against 2 "kids" on his own property in any of those circumstances. If you get this kind of response when someone pulls a gun on you on your own property just imagine the response if it was less clear cut self defense against obviously lethal force.

Deanimator
April 25, 2007, 07:38 AM
Sometimes stupid should be painful; or even fatal
14,000 years ago, something would have eaten that kid by now.

Stupidity no longer has the permanent consequences it used [and ought] to have. Fortunately, in this case it did.

Proud to be an Ohioan!

Ohioan
April 25, 2007, 10:04 AM
Give it a rest - this is one paper, not all papers. I find it amusing that you can call the news media leftist. Do you really think Murdoch is a hippie?

That one paper is one of the most blatantly liberal papers in the country. The Cleveland Plain Dealer disgusts me. I'm glad I live far far away from Cleveland.

- J -
April 25, 2007, 10:24 AM
This is SO simple.

Replace "civilian with CCW" with "police officer".

What happens if you suddenly and aggresively pull a gun to a cop? You get shot and nobody laments it, because you died out of your own reckless criminal stupidity.

foghornl
April 25, 2007, 11:22 AM
IIRC, the guy was walking home from a store, got home, said miscreants then attacked him on his front porch.

City of Cleveland is pretty far leftist, and the fishwrap ahhhhh... newspaper "Plain Dealer" reflects that. Hizzoner Mayor Frank Jackson has either already or will soon be filing suit against the Pre-Emption portion of the recently somewhat fixed CCW law.

Cleveland requires 'registering' your guns, but I don't recall what that process actually entails. That was stricken with the pre-emption law.

Kimber1911_06238
April 25, 2007, 11:24 AM
Amazing...this guy was being robbed and one of them pulled the gun and people want him prosecuted? rediculous...don't rob people and you can avoid this.

Steve N
April 25, 2007, 12:01 PM
WEWS, channel 5 (ABC) in Cleveland last night talked about the story, but NEVER mentioned the victim (the shooter) was on his OWN PORCH when the criminals threatened him!

Not just the paper is anti-gun.

rtroha
April 25, 2007, 01:26 PM
Amazingly enough, two PD columnists have written pro-ccw columns. In addition, there is a news article on the aftermath.

Four windows have been broken in Wells' house in retaliation for the shooting. We also learned that the kid was already on probation.

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/117749015813670.xml&coll=2

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/kevin_o_brien/index.ssf?/base/opinion/117748999513670.xml&coll=2

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/regina_brett/index.ssf?/base/opinion/117749066813670.xml&coll=2

ozwyn
April 25, 2007, 01:39 PM
Wells should sue the kids parents for negligence. They made sure the kid grew up a violent criminal (gang member?) and now Wells has to deal with the shooting fallout.

mavracer
April 25, 2007, 02:09 PM
this is one case where I can see the silly liberal anti's point.the gun killed him not Mr. Well's 40 but the 38 he was in criminal possesion of in the act of comitting a second crime.

Speer
April 25, 2007, 04:57 PM
The punk pulls a gun and gets dropped -- and he's the victim?

Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

Archer1945
April 25, 2007, 10:28 PM
I have to disagree with those who say if this had been a police officer it would have turned out differently. I want to know on what planet you've been living. If this perp had been shot by an LEO Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and, who knows who else, would have been demanding a federal investigation, the ACLU would probably be looking to file civil rights violation lawsuits, etc. Cleveland should be rejoicing, this private citizen just saved them a whole bunch of money which they would have had to shell out when some time in the future this kid was shot by an LEO.:D

Archer1945
April 25, 2007, 11:03 PM
Just finished sending an email to Kevin O'Brien about his very well written editorial about the Arthur Buford shooting. Not only is such an editorial in the Plain Dealer more than a little interesting but Mr O'Brien also happens to be the Deputy Editorial Director.

fast eddie
April 25, 2007, 11:19 PM
I'm pretty impressed, the crook had the drop on him, and yet he still drew and shot the person multiple times. Anyone know what kind of training Damon Wells has recieved?

atek3
I was gonna ask this but atek3 beat me to it.

On another note; Does this mean the "time to crime" for this 'youth' was 15 years?:rolleyes:

cpaspr
April 26, 2007, 08:25 PM
Sounds like Mr. Wells drew when he saw the kid start to draw. That's not the same as the kid had the drop on him. Then it all becomes about mindset.

Mr. Wells was drawing as fast as possible intending to defend himself. The kid was probably relying on the the fear factor of dragging out his piece and scaring the homeowner into submission.

Not that amazing that Mr. Wells could win, given the probable difference in their attitudes.

AJ Dual
April 26, 2007, 09:39 PM
I can understand the family's mindset, if only in an intellectual sort of way.

In certain demographics, criminality amongst young males is now expected, perhaps almost accepted. If the adolescent sons of every other unwed mother up and down the street also have criminal rap sheets a fair fraction of the size of the local phone book, the stigma begins to lessen.

They've given up and just raise their families around it, and it's just part of their life. The point is no longer to prevent the criminality, it's simply to cope with it, and hope that their young males merely survive it. And the brief sojourns in between prison stays, and the sky-high out-of-wedlock childbirth rate is more than adequate to ensure the next generation arrives.

The notion of CCW outrages them, as they view the licenses as hunting permits on their kin.

Too bad.

Too bad for us, to have to put up with that, I mean...

Browns Fan
April 28, 2007, 10:51 AM
All the editorials in the Plain Dealer for the past couple of days pretty much agree with us. Some friends of this criminal have a memorial to him where some have left flowers, baloons, etc. My family lives on the other side of town, if I had any idea of how to get there, I know what I'd like to leave there. A sign that says this punk got what he deserved!:fire:

The gentleman who defended himself has broken windows in his home and is now living elsewhere.

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