Full scale RIOT at Indiana Prison (video)


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RIDE
April 24, 2007, 05:49 PM
Happening now....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a9d_1177445054&p=1

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LarryS.
April 24, 2007, 06:05 PM
Thanks for posting the link....Fox News radio just reported there was NO truth to the story that some of the rioting convicts had escaped the confines of the outer fence.......developing:fire:

Crunker1337
April 24, 2007, 06:48 PM
Crazy.

Where's SWAT when you need 'em? Oh wait they're hiding in their vans going over their strategy; and when everything cools down they'll bust in MP-5s ready and collect evidence.

NM234
April 24, 2007, 06:57 PM
what I don't get, seeing that most prisons are in isolated areas, and these prisoners do not be confined to where they will get a lethal dose, is why they don't use the tactic used in the russian hostage crisis. From what I heard they pumped a gaseous opiod into the air to render people unconcious (an opiod being used because the effects are easily reversed using narcan (naltrexone) once they are tied up) and then tie them up. Also even if they do recieve what would be a lethal dose if you move in quickly with the narcan you can revive them easily. Either that or tear gas, but there can still be some form of struggle when tear gas is used, its better to knock em out completely. I would think such tactics would be ready to be put in place considering it is a prison, also this would not be inhumane (although the people who started/participated in the riot should be punished, but it should be humane punishment. Even if they aren't humane, we're supposed to be better than them morally) and would be highly effective. And if it is near a populated area have everyone move a few blocks away quickly then do it. Instead they will probably watch for hours.

NM234
April 24, 2007, 06:58 PM
typo above, these prisoners do not seem to be confined to where they will get a lethal dose.

Phaetos
April 24, 2007, 07:20 PM
Where's SWAT when you need 'em? Oh wait they're hiding in their vans going over their strategy

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=272547

That's where SWAT is ... :fire: :banghead:

Correia
April 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
Enough of the bashing. It gets old, and frankly, childish and annoying.

BigStick
April 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
In situations like this I wish our law enforcement would take off the kid gloves and be willing to use lethal force. Make an announcement on the PA system giving prisoners who are not participating in the riot an opportunity to go back to their cells, surrender, etc. Then have the SWAT team bust in there and blow away anyone who continues to resist. It would definitely save on the costs of incarceration and I'm sure it would greatly reduce the risk of similar events in the future.

calsdad
April 24, 2007, 07:33 PM
You have got to be kidding me - are you guys a bunch of liberals?

I just watched the video - where is the rioting? I saw a few guys milling around on the basketball court - one actually had a basketball he was dribbling every now and then. A bunch of others seem to be casually walking around - on the sidewalks. And yet another bunch of rioting prisoners seem to be congregating alongside the buildings - to protect themselves from the sun.

It's exagerated BS descriptions like this that our illustrious liberal newsmedia use every time somebody with a .22 bolt action rifle is made out as a "military trained killer with a fully automatic .50 caliber killing machine". It's BS descriptions like this that the Feds used at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Please stop the insanity.

cassandrasdaddy
April 24, 2007, 07:39 PM
was what killed most of the folks in russia. and 5the corrections officer might not like being gassed much

Dixie_Amazon
April 24, 2007, 07:41 PM
Apparently things got stirred up when 300 prisoners from Arizona were transfered the prison in Indiana.

armoredman
April 24, 2007, 07:55 PM
OK, here I am. First, the transfered inmates were hand selected for passivity, as this is a huge disruption in thier lives, and the families. Say what you want, visitation is a major tool of inmate management. There is no concrete data on who is doing what. I would be surprised it was the AZ inmates, but I have been wrong many times in the past.

Calsdad, that's what a LOT of riots look like, during lulls, guys walking around doing nothing, then BOOM, violence in one corner. I watched a video of a big disturbance in one of our complexes, and mostly guys just refusing to follow orders, until they smashed thier way into the store, and into the chaplains office, then set fire to both.
Big Stick, it's not SWAT's call, it DOC. Ordinarily, SWAT has no authority inside the walls, that's our turf...except this one is run by a private corporation. Private prisons are the worst, closed books, little oversight, and most "incidents" are covered up for fear of lawsuits. Staff are left to swing in the breeze to save the corporate profit. This SHOULD have some Indiana DOC overseers, usually an LT and a couple of Sgts. We'll see.
NM234, knockout gas has to be tailored to an individual body weight, and released haphazard is what killed in Russia. Say what you want about "Gee, darn", but when the families break out the lawsuits, Al Sharpton and Donna Hamm, (look her up, be ready to puke), then you'll wonder why life seemed so good, before. Custodial responsability, it's not just a clever catch phrase, it has LOTS of meaning, especially in a court of law.
CS is Ok, but a pain to clean up, and inmates can developa tolerance to the stuff. OC is better, outdoor cleanup is nill, and quite effective. Flash bangs and OC is the way to go right now, unless the inmates have aquired better weapons than bed springs and busted TVs.Then break out the "good stuff".
BTW, here in AZ, we in DOC have our own version of SWAT.

BigStick
April 24, 2007, 08:04 PM
I just watched the video - where is the rioting? I saw a few guys milling around on the basketball court - one actually had a basketball he was dribbling every now and then. A bunch of others seem to be casually walking around - on the sidewalks. And yet another bunch of rioting prisoners seem to be congregating alongside the buildings - to protect themselves from the sun.

What do you expect them to do? They're stuck in a prison yard, not downtown L.A., so there isn't whole lot they can do. No cars to vandalize, innocent bystanders to beat up, shops to loot, etc. But it looks like they are doing what damage they can: attacking staff members, burning matresses, etc. It is not clear what is going on inside the buildings, but it is clear that the prison security has lost control.

RIDE
April 24, 2007, 08:27 PM
:D You have got to be kidding me - are you guys a bunch of liberals?

I just watched the video - where is the rioting? I saw a few guys milling around on the basketball court - one actually had a basketball he was dribbling every now and then. A bunch of others seem to be casually walking around - on the sidewalks. And yet another bunch of rioting prisoners seem to be congregating alongside the buildings - to protect themselves from the sun.

It's exagerated BS descriptions like this that our illustrious liberal newsmedia use every time somebody with a .22 bolt action rifle is made out as a "military trained killer with a fully automatic .50 caliber killing machine". It's BS descriptions like this that the Feds used at Ruby Ridge and Waco. Please stop the insanity.

"They" said Randy Weaver and David Koresh were involved in "prison riots"???? Are you sure you know what happened to Mr. Weaver at Ruby Ridge and or The Branch Dividians in Waco, TX????

Hmmm??? What exactly do you call a riot? When inmates, whom are normally under complete CONTROL by the prison system, are setting multiple fires WITHIN the confines of the prison, running in and out of the cell blocks at will, and seemingly have taken over complete control of at least a large portion of the prison... I think it's safe to say.. it's a riot. Have you been taking your schizophrenia meds??? not EVERY little thing is because of the evil "bunch of liberals" in black helicopters using words like "riots" so they can somehow fool you. LMAO You young man, are hilarious! :D:D:D

NM234
April 24, 2007, 08:34 PM
yeah, but in russia they were inside an audotorium and the response was pretty slow to use the anti-dote, plus I believe they only used it once it was deemed necessary on someone. My cousin is a paramedic and has said if you administer the narcan within an hour or so the chances of death are pretty low.

armoredman
April 24, 2007, 08:44 PM
NM234, forget it, it will NOT happen. Too many variables, and there are too many over a wide spread area. It won't happen, not with a state DOC with the recources of the state to fall back on, much less a private company. There has never been a successful use of any tranquilizing agent on large groups of people in the open, anywhere in the US. So, please, forget the melodrama, and realize one thing is going to clear that yard, and one thing only- for the inmates to realize it's over. That's it. We can help along with whatever less than lethal munitions we can use, but until they figure out they lost, it will keep going.

Geronimo45
April 24, 2007, 08:59 PM
"Warden threw a party in the county jail..."

blackhawk2000
April 24, 2007, 09:00 PM
Minigun. Helicopter. Problem solved.

Checkman
April 24, 2007, 09:09 PM
Armoredman.

Very good response. But as a cop I'm here to tell you that the bashers don't care and will rarely actually read what you write. Your response contradicts their "worldview" and they don't like it. So I appreciate what you have to say and I know a few others do as well, but the bashers could care less. Kind of like the gungrabbers. Keep up the good work.:D

Lucky
April 24, 2007, 09:10 PM
We'll see.
NM234, knockout gas has to be tailored to an individual body weight, and released haphazard is what killed in Russia

Nah, they had formulas and scientific opinions, and used what was decided to be the right amount.

Then one lady who had a high tolerance stumbled out of the building. (because the aerosol tranquilizer worked, and knocked everyone else out)

This caused some dumbasses to insist that there was not tranquilizers used, and had more pumped in. This CONTRIBUTED to people dieing.

Then when the over-dosed people were dragged out, they were laid face-up in the rain, and those that didn't choke on their own vomit literally drowned in a light rain.

Any teenager knows to leave passed-out dudes on their sides.

runfrumu
April 24, 2007, 09:54 PM
i like how it said witnesses saw at least 3 burning fires. as if there were other kinds.

and dont say smoldering.

Cato the Younger
April 24, 2007, 10:39 PM
Armoredman, with your experience in this area, would you say that the frequency/severity of riots has been
increasing
stable
or declining
over the past 15/20 years. what factors do you think contribute to the rise of these riots (if this is trade-secret type stuff, I understand if you cannot answer).
finally, to keep this gun related, what type of guns do you use in Corrections, and, if you use shotguns, are beanbag rounds effective?

Brigrat
April 24, 2007, 11:18 PM
Definently declining...riots per-capita are way down...that being said, there are many more in confinement than there used to be...

Armoredman is dead on. I used to work corrections, and my wife is a state auditor for the DOC in our state...she primarily audits a GEO Prison (the same company managing the one that is rioting now). The contract prisons don't seem to be ran as well as the non-contracts that I worked in.

armoredman
April 24, 2007, 11:34 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Checkman, most in street LE prefer to forget we are even here. Actually, MOST people want to forget that, too. They forget "lock 'em up, and throw away the key", means someone has to house them, feed them, and make sure they never do "it" again.
Cato, I work for AZDOC, which means 90% of what we do is transparent, available for the general population, who we do serve and protect, by keeping the real mosters under lock and key. http://www.azcorrections.gov/newindex.asp has tons of free info for you.
I would say major disturbances decrease generally, depending on what "theory" of corrections they use. See, prisons serve two funtions. One, they keep the bad ones away from you, and kepp them punished by the state for thier crimes. The second school of thought, and MUCH harder to quantify, is the school that brought the word "corrections" to prison life - the rehabilitation crowd.
Inmates are convicted criminals, serving a time imposed by the state, until they are freed. 96% of ALL inmates currenlty incarcerated today will get out, eventually. 96%. Thats a lot of guys, when you think how many are behind bars right now. We do out best to educate them, and show them what life COULD be like if they are compliant with rules and regulations, via a theory called The Parrellel Universe, get them thinking what they have to do outside to survive, legally. Sometimes, it even works. We do many things ordered by liberal judges, because we have to, and few of them do any good whatsoever. Big surprise.
Our relapse rate drops, and people go nuts, but most violent crimes are committed by the same few hardend felons. We can never reach them, and they are the reason I carry 24/7. The only thing they understand is pure, naked force. There is no reasoning with them, no appealing to thier better side, because there is none. The only argument they understand is a bullet.
There are the others, well, let me tell you the Worm theory.
There is the head of the worm, the ones who are getting it, programming right, doing what they can to change, and working hard to never, ever come back. There is the hind end, which we will never reach, the horrible ones, the ones who make the boogy man shake and quake.Then there is the middle, which is undetermined, and will follow the strongest leaders. We want to point and encourage the front, keep the hind end under control, while being civil about it, and try to influence the middle towards the front.
Did I mention I am also a Staff Instructor? Oops.
As for firearms, Glock 19, Remington 870, and AR15. Our TSU, (SWAT), has toys they don't talk about, so neither can I. But inside the walls, the fences, on the runs, our weapons are cans of OC, handcuffs, and our wits.
Fun job, really.

NM234
April 25, 2007, 09:35 AM
I have to agree that the opiate gas wouldn't be used (is that what they used in russia? I had heard it was a narcotic as opposed to a standard tranq. like a barbituate; its much easier to reverse the effects of a narcotic if you have enough narcan (I was pre-med before switching to pre-law and took the EMT course, but I am far from an expert). I think it could be used successfully, but your right it won't. And of course some people could be killed but it would kill less than running in there guns blazing. And I have heard similar things about them not handling the med response properly in russia.

But again you are right, it will never happen. I would probably say this early on "If you all go back to your cells immediately your punishment will be minor, if you continue this prepare for drastic consequences." Give em a couple minutes and those who don't listen...... pummel the place w/tear gas and flash bangs, send in trained men w/full body armor, gas masks, riot sheilds (I had an idea for an electrified sheild, have they ever tried that before?) and stun guns with long sticks. Have them backed up with armored guys with submachine guns. You shouldn't try to kill them.... but if the least amount of lethal force is used that is appropriate; then I don't see why they should be able to sue (and this is coming from someone studying to be a lawyer :) )

NM234
April 25, 2007, 09:37 AM
also narcotic gasses wouldn't be based on body weight, tolerance can vary widely from person to person even of the same weight. But 95% of ODs involve alcohol or benzodiazepines in addition to the narcotic.

Checkman
April 25, 2007, 10:21 AM
Armoredman

I've been a cop for seven years and just recently returned to the road after three years as a detective. During that time I made several trips to our local state prison to interview convicts. I was given a tour of Cell Block B where the state keeps the deat row guys and the most violent cons to include a few civil commitments (i.e. truly whacko and out of control). Tough job. Those cons in B are a combination of murderous animals and whiney babies.

Recently I've begun to experience the situation involving the ex-con who I helped send to prison several years ago seeing me in public with my family. I was told it would take between six to eight years for this to start happening and now it is. Like you I go armed 24/7 now. Even my wife has changed her tune about that.

And no for all you cop bashers I am not anti-ccw.

LaEscopeta
April 25, 2007, 10:40 AM
armoredman, Great, balanced summary of the corrections “business” Thanks.

NM234
April 25, 2007, 01:10 PM
Checkman, being I cop I have a few questions if you don't mind answering them; mostly I think they may be myths perpetuated by people who want to make our prison system look extremely cruel:

1. Do they house fairly minor, non-violent offenders with murderers and rapists? (like someone going in for possession of marijuana, or a kid who takes a car for a joyride (not a carjacker, but someone who hotwires it when no one is around))

2. Is it fairly common that gaurds beat up inmates? (someone was trying to tell me the other day that its not uncommon for gaurds to continue to punch or kick or in other ways hit someone after they are already subdued)

3. Do the police keep a watchful eye out to make sure that guards treat people humanely? or is it administrators that do that?

I'm not saying I believe these things, I've just never even been in a prison (although I will probably have to considering I am studying to be a lawyer, I am currently in about to enter last year of pre-law Poli-Sci, I'll graduate from that next spring.) and was hoping you could clear up why some people perpetuate these ideas (I mean I'm sure guards being cruel has happened at some point but I doubt its that frequent, I mean why would you want to have to go through all the bother of the paperwork of why someone was injured if they are really easily subdued; just doesn't make sense in most cases).

bowfin
April 25, 2007, 02:32 PM
I recommend putting some high powered pumps and fire hoses in the towers. If the temperature is below 60º, just being wet can take the fun out of a riot. Otherwise, being knocked on your rear six times in 45 seconds is a drag also.

Plus, they can douse those burning mattresses.

armoredman
April 25, 2007, 02:46 PM
NM234, contact your local DOC and ask for a tour, or when the next oneis going through. You will be required to submit your SSN, etc, for clearance.
As for your housing questions, I have no idea how your local DOC does it, but we use an extensive classification process based on two overall factors - Insitutional Risk, and Public Risk, resulting in what we call a P and I score. Many factors are used, (I have never worked Programs, so I couldn't tell you what factors they are, but I think it's available on our public website), then score of 1-5, 5 being the worst, is used to determine where an inmate is incarcerated. Other factors are also used now, including age, violent/non violent crime, etc, in housing in cells. Also, sex offenders are segregated from others. So, on my yard, I have thugs who are also rapists, but on a GP yard they're just thugs. Mostly murderers are in higher custody units, but some leak down to us, due to one factor or another. A new classification system in being worked in, to help avoid another Lewis tower incident.
Once again, we are not "guards". And, no, officers are not allowed to "beat up" on inmates. I personally know a LT who self-demoted to inmate for that. Uses of force are strictly controlled, taped, reviewed, etc. Any planned use of force, cell extraction, etc, has to have approval from the top before moving in...all because of liberal lawyers and lawsuits. I have seen good staff injured because they didn't want to get sued for a use of force. We always have theright of self defense, but assault on inmates is a huge no-no, and WILL result in criminal prosecution.
Last, police keep no eye on us - they don't come in. We are the law enforcement inside the walls. In many states COs are LEOs. PD don't like coming inside, surrounded by convicted felons, approx, at my yard, 33.5 to one, unarmed. That's OK, I wouldn't like thier job. At least, in here, the teams are clearly defined. PD rarely enters farther than the sally port/intake, dropping off or picking up for county jails/new warrants.
We do have our version of Internal Affairs, known as CIU, who takes care of staff investigations. They have full arrest powers, and have been known to remove bad staff in cuffs.
I hope that explains more. I see your view of COs is inspired by depictions like that of Walker:Texas Ranger, where we are either stupid, corrupt, or both. The reality is far more boring.

Checkman
April 25, 2007, 03:25 PM
As a cop I don't act as a watchdog over Correction Officers. At my level the county jail is run by the Sheriff Department. Deputies act as jailers. I'm a city cop and I don't overwatch the deputies either. Internal invetigations are handled by the sheriff department or an outside agency - typically the state.Who investigates the state corrections officers? Beats Me. I suppose if the charges are severe enough it would be the Feds, but I don't know.

However my limited experience has been that CO's and deputies treat the prisoners humanely. Juvenille offenders - even those being charged as adults are incarcerated in the Juvenille Detention Center. They have their own JCO's and those folks work under an entirely different set of rules. Juvenille detention is a very strange world.

I've never seen any abuse though I've arrested ex-cons who will gladly tell me all kind of horror stories about the officers in prison. I usually take their tales with a huge grain of salt.

We have many ex-CO's on my department, but we've also had a few guys go to work for the Department of Corrections in both Idaho and Oregon.

bowfin
April 25, 2007, 03:42 PM
They are not going to be able to see there families in AZ. They went nuts... who really wouldn't?

Gosh, It's almost like they are being punished, huh?

Didn't these guys sign some sort of agreement with the cops and courts, that if caught and convicted of one or more felonies, that they would never be transferred farther away than what was convenient for them and their families?

No!?!?

Then tough. I refuse to feel sorry for a bunch of criminals who tear up property because they have it half as bad as the troops in Iraq, brooght on by their own bad behavior.

Where's a 105 with a beehive round when you need one...

bowfin
April 25, 2007, 04:58 PM
Okay, first off, sorry for the sarcasm. It was aimed at those inmates rioting, not you.

Secondly, who wouldn't riot?...

...If I were in the prison, I wouldn't. I would tell myself, "Whose fault is it you're here in here anyhow!? Suck it up and take it like the man you should have been in the first place. If you don't like it, you don't ever have to come back."

Of course, most of those who take personal responsibility for their lives and its direction don't end up in prison in the first place. I find it so ironic that all prison inmates interviewed usually talk about "pride" and "honor codes" in prison. What source of real pride could anyone have if the rest of the country is willing to pay $30,000 a year to make you disappear, and consider it money well spent?

The best philosophy I ever saw was a warden who came into a prison and immediately did away with the idea that prisoners had "their cells", or "their exercise yards" or "their anything". His opinion was that if you didn't build it, and you didn't buy it, then you don't own it, and you sure as heck won't control it. You want a room of your own? Get out of prison and rent one, these belong to the people of the State of <where ever>. He moved inmates around as much as possible, to reinforce this idea.

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