.32 acp rimlock

[cold dead hands]

I wanted this in general discussion hoping for maximum viewing and replies.

Regardless of your brand of handgun have any of you experience the "dreaded" rimlock problem that .32 acp is prone to if you load poorly (kind of a DUH factor there) or had you firearm "disturbed" to where the cartridges became unaligned and rimlocked.

I really think that I want a Beretta Tomcat in .32 acp, but I have some apprehension about a semi rimmed case.

Any input from those with experience would be great.

thanks

[philbo]

My wife carries her Keltec 32 on a daily basis loaded with corbon HP's. Prior to that her carry gun was a Walther PP in 32. Never saw a problem once in over 20 years. Others claim it happens on a daily basis.

Quick search pulls up this repeating topic: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1924925
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=29616

[GooseGestapo]

I've had both the TomCat and Keltec. I've shot a 1907 Savage that belongs to my father-in-law a bit also.

I only experieced rim-lock once. It was because I intentionally loaded it with the rim over the one lower while loading the magazine to see if it would still feed. It didn't. (It was with the TomCAT that I tried it with).
I never much thought about it until I started seeing it mentioned on the internet. Ditto with the .38Super that shares the same "semi-rimmed" design.
I've never heard of any of the guys I've shot in competion with and against say anything about it with the .38Super. I quit shooting the Super when I got a S&W Perf.Ctr 9mm and haven't thought about it since.

If you will pay a little attention to the loading process I don't think you'll have a problem. Just realize that if you happen to get the rim of one cartridge over and behind another, It won't "strip" or feed itself. It'll just jam...
I never experenced it myself other than intentionally inducing it.

I've heard of it often, but I think it's mostly operator error. Although I suppose that anything is possible......

re: the TomCat.....
I really, really liked mine. It was very-very accurate, not just for a pocket pistol. It'd shoot ~2.5" groups to POA-POI at 25yds. However, I shot it to death. Literally.
After about 3,000rds (guesstimated, I shot it regularily for several years while I was carrying it as a back-up while employed in L.E.). Most loads were "american" factory equivalent with a 78gr bullet I cast over 1.6gr of Bullseye. However, I too shot a good bit of Fiocchi 60gr HP and eqivalent loadings (reloads) of both 60gr XTP's and Speer GoldDots duplicating the VERY HOT Fiocchi loading (1,050fps from the 2.125" TomCat). The frame and slide cracked. I sent it back to Berreta and they sent me another one...... FREE !
I traded it off "NIB" for something else.

I gave my Keltec to my brother. He carrys it as a back up on his job.

Either will give the average shooter decent service, but they aren't designed or built for heavy long term use like a S&W mod10 revolver or a Glock or similar mil.spec duty weapon. Kinda like an older S&W mod36 with +P, they'll shoot loose and break eventually.

[gpr]

i think that it mostly happens with hollow points, that may bit shorter than fmj.....i it is a problem, carry fmj....gpr

[happy old sailor]

i bought a KT P32 a few years ago and picked up a couple boxes of ammo at the same time. i set out to function fire the little thing and experienced rimlock in the first mag. i cleared all these and dropped them in my shirt pocket. later examination showed the rimlocks to have rims too thick to slide under the extractor. of course it would rimlock. if checking them visually is too tejious, try cycling them by hand and after removing the rimlocks from the supply, see if this cures the prob. a different brand of ammo has had no problems. i cycle all my carry ammo before depending on it anyway.

your problem could be entirely different than mine. i am just relating mine. YMMV is the word or words

[1 old 0311]

My .32 Guardian has peen PERFECT:D

[usp9]

I have a CZ 83 that is VERY prone to rimlock with North American ammo. European feeds fine. I use mostly S&B. The difference is I believe in the shape of the case at the rim.

MySeecamp has never given me problems, probably due to the "tight" nature of the magazine. There's no wiggle room in the mag so the rounds remain stacked.

[Tomac]

I've carried Tomcats for deep CCW ever since they came out (currently carrying an Inox). I've used FMJ & the old WW Silvertip load exclusively and have never experienced rimlock or any other reliability/functioning problem. HTH...
Tomac

[mavracer]

never had rim-lock with seecamp or walther pp

[Shipwreck]

I only use and carry Fiocchi FMJ and have never had a problem (knock on wood).

Works great in my Keltec. I preferred the Keltec to the Tomcat. It's much thinner.

[deadin]

I think this is another example of "If you think you have a foolproof system, you just haven't found the right fool.":D

[Onmilo]

I have been shooting .32 acp pistols for the better part of twenty years and have rimlocked a magazine exactly once in God only knows how many thousand of rounds fired.
It was with my Kel-Tec P32 and I got in a hurry loading up a magazine at the range.
I figured this problem only happened to fools and the careless until it happened to me and I now I am convinced it only happens to fools and the careless.

Load the cartridges carefully and make sure the rim of the top cartridge is in front of the cartridge below it and you will not experience rimlock.

By the way, except for my short and nonlasting adventure with Silvertips I haven't used anything but FMJ in my .32s

[M2 Carbine]

I bought a Kel Tec 32 when they first came out.
Never had a problem with rimlock and I thought that people just weren't being careful when they loaded short ammo, like CorBon, in their magazines.

Then I had several cases of rimlock in a couple weeks.

I recently bought a new CZ83 .32 ACP. It rimlocks bad with the short HP bullets.

[mavracer]

I figured this problem only happened to fools and the careless until it happened to me and I now I am convinced it only happens to fools and the careless
ROFLMAO

[351 WINCHESTER]

I had 1 rimlock problem with a kel tec. I was a sceptic at first, but this happened to a spare mag. that I carried in my pocket. From time to time I unload the mag. to clean it. I am very careful about loading my magazines. That mag. in my pocket was rim locked and the only way to clear it was to disassemble it. I'm a believer now. You can load a h/p in the chamber and 1 h/p on the top of the mag, but no more. You can add a spacer to the back of the mag. (kel tec sells them) that will eleminate rim lock, but limits you to fmj or w/w flat nose only.


Yes folks it's a real issue.

[MICHAEL T]

It happens with HP or that Winchester flat nose junk (same OAL as a HP) doesn't seem to happen with the longer ball.
I get a Kt to pack befor a Beretta ,less weight, thinner ,and lots better trigger. Going to carry Beretta might as well go with a airweight J frame in 38spl. weight and width about same.

[SapperLeader]

I had it happen with some hollowpoints and some lighter grain fmj. I started shooting the Fiochi 73gr and haven't had it happen since(knocks on wood).

I think with the longer fmj as long as your carefully loading it you wont have problems.

[browningguy]

I've got about a dozen .32 auto's, mosty pre-war. Savages, H&R, FN's, Dryse, admittedly I don't shoot them all that much but I have yet to have a rimlock with any of them.

[FLA2760]

I carry My KT p32 with 2 HPs, one in chamber, and one at the top of a magazine full of FMJ. I prefer the FMJ in .32 for better penetration and no rimlock concerns.

[deputy tom]

I had rim-lock (kel-tec p32)many times before I read the "Flyers wire" thread on another forum.I did this mod to two of my mags and eliminated any chance of future rim-lock induced failures.YMMV.tom.:cool:

Link to the fix...

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/flyerwire.htm

[Quiet]

I've carried my Kel-Tec P-32 for the last 4 years and have not experienced a rim lock issue.

Been using Winchester 60gr Silvertip HP (X32ASHP)

[Ron James]

I had never heard of the term until a couple of years ago. I didn't even know what it meant. So after reading about it I took several .32's and started working with them. I can only say from my own experiments, that to have a rim lock you really have to work at it, if you load the magazines the proper way you will never , ever have a rim lock. I feel it's a non issue.

[Willo]

Why are .32s "semi rimmed" in the first place??

:confused:

[usp9]

Ron James said:
I can only say from my own experiments, that to have a rim lock you really have to work at it, if you load the magazines the proper way you will never , ever have a rim lock. I feel it's a non issue.

Then you've never fired my CZ83. Doesn't matter how careful it's loaded...rimlock is almost 100% with certain cased ammo. The mag ia large, with plenty of room for rounds to move during shooting, and they do.

[Onmilo]

USP9 I thought you might enjoy seeing this picture.
The magazine on the right is the old style CZ-83 .32acp magazine.
The one on the right is the new and improved CZ-83 .32acp magazine.
See the difference?
The back indentations forces the cartridges closer to the front body.
The side indentations have also been slightly altered to allow cartridges to feed more smoothly up the magazine body.
This new design all but eliminates all problems with rimlock and ragged feeding.
If you are experiencing problem feeding with the newer magazines there is something else wrong with the pistol.HTH
http://www.fototime.com/F645AFBD3130C1E/standard.jpg

[Grigori Rasputin]

I am sorry, but I have to seriously disagree with the two posters who say that loading the magazine a certain way will eliminate rimlock.

I recently purchased my second KT .32. My first was the design that did not have the external hex screw holding the extractor in place. It fired everything I put in it (mostly ball and Gold Dots) without a hiccup and accuracy was good enough to keep all hits in the "bowling pin area" of a silhouette at 25 yds.

The one I bought a few days ago, NIB and just arrived at the dealer, is the newer configuration with the external hex screw holding the extractor in place. It, too, shot Serbian ball, Gold Dots, and Mag Safes without a hiccup.
After looking at the pics of expanded rounds and ballistic stats on "GoldenLoki.com", I decided that I wanted to try the Cor-Bon 60 gr HP's. About the second round into my first magazine of them, everything locked up. My magazine was locked up so badly, I had to disassemble it to fix the problem. I had a second magazine I had purchased with this gun and it, too, experienced rimlock after about the second shot. It, too, had to be completely disassembled to fix the lockup of cartridges.

The rangemaster where I was shooting explained the concept of rimlock to me and said I was loading the mags wrong. He showed me how to do it right and loaded them correctly as I watched. I thought this to be a really flimsy premise on which to stake one's life, with the rounds placed "just so" in the magazine. With variables like recoil, inertia from walking, sitting, running, falling, and other things, the potential for this precise alignment to be undone was more than probable, I thought. I appreciated his help, mind you, but the idea just did not sound like something to bet your life on. It wasn't.

I went back in to the booth and two rounds into each magazine, they were both locked up and needed disassembly, again. As I had suspected, recoil had knocked everything out of this precise alignment.

Just to be sure that nothing had changed with my gun or the mags, I fired a twenty round box of Gold Dots using both mags without a stutter. I traded the unopened box of Cor Bons for another box of Gold Dots.

The gun has been utterly reliable with everything I have run through it, except the Cor Bons. That is a real shame as the pics of expanded bullets and the 200+ fps difference in Cor Bons and the Gold Dots would have made them my choice load for the gun. Given their poor performance in my KT, I will stick with the Gold Dots. I can count on them to go bang and make a hole.

[jonnyc]

"I carry My KT p32 with 2 HPs, one in chamber, and one at the top of a magazine full of FMJ. I prefer the FMJ in .32 for better penetration and no rimlock concerns"

This post is 100% on. Rimlock is not a factor of care or skill in loading a mag, and it is truly an arrogant insult to state that it is. The design of some pistol mags is such that some shorter OAL rounds will jump under recoil and jam against the rims of their brothers and cousins. Simple problem to understand and deal with. Those who don't believe it exists are more at-risk than those who do.
Good luck.

[JohnBT]

I thought this was settled almost a decade ago on the KT forum, along about the time I bought my P-32. A few people made mag spacers for the short OAL HPs and a lot took to carrying ball ammo.

Early on I had two instances of rimlock and switched to ball ammo.

Has it really been that long? I had to look it up. The P-32 was introduced in 1999 and they've made a bunch...

"Number built - Over 280,000 of First Generation through 2005"

Mine is right around #12xxx.

John

[Jim Keenan]

Most magazines are made so that FMJ is too long to rimlock, but of course everyone wants the short super hollow points that the maker says expand to at least 6 inches, so rimlock is back.

So why are .38 ACP (and .38 Super), .32 ACP, and .25 ACP semi-rimmed in the first place?

Because when Browning was trying to make an auto pistol work, the idea of supporting a case on its mouth never occurred to him. He started with a revolver cartridge and kept making the rim smaller and smaller until he got the ammo to feed and still had enough rim for support.

Along about 1904 or so, he saw a 9mm Luger and the light dawned, but by then even the .25 ACP was in the works.

The .380 ACP and .45 ACP, designed after the enlightenment, were rimless and straight, the latter an improvement on the 9mm Luger, which is tapered.

Jim

[JohnBT]

www.kel-tec-cnc.com/cart2/product_info.php?cPath=3_13&products_id=156

P32-314 7 rd Rim Lock Preventer $9.17
This product was added to our catalog on Sunday 01 February, 2009.

They were talking about this back at least as early as 2002 from what I can find with Google.

John

[gimlet1/21]

I only use FMJ in my KT-32, with this small a caliber HP's are useless. I use the remainder of them for target practice, and carry Rem. 71 gr. FMJ for defence.

[usp9]

Since this thread has been resurrected...

I should thank Onmilo for the heads up on the new redesigned CZ83 magazine. I didn't see the post back then and was unaware of this until now. My CZ83 is the only pistol I have that exhibits such a chronic problem. My other .32acp pistols, a Seecamp, Walther PP, and Sig P230 do not give me problems. I attribute this to the very roomy magazine of the CZ83, that allows rounds to shift.

[senior]

My older KT 32 has rimlock each and everytime i load Hornady or RBCD HPs. Tried to load both my mags a dozen times with both and 1st rd will ALWAYS lock up and not load. Now i can load one rd in chamber and top rd in mag with HP ,then the rest FMJ, BUT can only load 6 rds i n the mag or it will again lock up. If I load FMJ i can load all 7 rds and works flawlessly! If its the springs, then i was burned with both mags as neither has more than 25-30 rds through them!

[BushyGuy]

my beretta tomcat hasnt rimlocked with silvertips or fmj i have a single stack magazine they shouldnt rimlock wiht hte factory magazines only the cheap imitations.

[Shadow 7D]

do +power mag springs help prevent rimlock, I know that the cz 83 mags have alot of rattle, loose bullets, in 9mak

[UniversalFrost]

carry a p32 on a daily basis and never had a problem with rimlock with the S&B FMJ's I use. have heard of problems with the HP's from american makers, but that is about it.

also if you google there is an interesting site on the 32acp and gel tests and shows all the current makers of 32acp out there with ballistics, etc.. and penetration tests with the gel made me even more confident in my S&B FMJ's as being superior for penetration and also KE over hollow points in this caliber.

JOE

[Blakenzy]

Because when Browning was trying to make an auto pistol work, the idea of supporting a case on its mouth never occurred to him[...] Along about 1904 or so, he saw a 9mm Luger and the light dawned, but by then even the .25 ACP was in the works.


WHAT!!! Do you mean JMB's devine vision wasn't perfect!?!?!!

[glassman]

I've experienced rimlock in my Tomcat using JHP on more than one occasion no matter how I loaded it. It's never happened with FMJ however. The frame also cracked after about 300 rounds. In fairness and to their credit, Beretta sent back an Inox version that has worked perfectly (using FMJ rounds). A lot has been written on this forum (both pro and con) about the .32 round and especially about the Tomcat. It might be worth a search before putting your money down. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

[Ron James]

It is indeed odd, I like the 32 caliber and never have had less than three in my ownership at any one time in the past 50 years. I had never even heard of the term rim lock until the last couple of years. In all the years I have been shooting the .32 ACP I have never had a Rim Lock. As stated, with all my shooting and reading I had never heard of such an event. Having 5ea .32's on hand, I took a box of ammo and did some testing, nope, only if you hold down the top round ( not easy to do ) can you slide a rim over a rim. Rims jumping over each other in recoil, never happened to me nor have i personally seen just a thing or know anyone who has seen such a thing.If someone says it happens , well I have no doubt it happens, but Me Myself and I, believe it is a non issue.

[jonnyc]

...til you have it happen! Then it's a big issue.

[Jim Keenan]

Can I say (again and again!) to fire at least 200 consecutive rounds from a carry gun with the carry ammo and magazine(s). If you get a problem and think you have corrected it, start the count over.

As I said earlier, the problem is not the gun, it is the ammunition. I get tired of reading about people who carry guns they KNOW are prone to failure and yet won't spend enough money for even a reasonable amount of testing.

Jim

[orionengnr]

Why do first-time posters always resurrect old dead threads? :rolleyes:

Do a search on KT.org; this subject has been well-documented. It's not rocket science.

A semi-rimmed cartridge is not a good choice for a semi-auto pistol. Workable, maybe, if you do it right.

Without (trying to) bash anyone's carry choice, I cannot see why anyone would choose a .32 over a .380, when they are essentially the same size/weight. I have owned both the P32 and P3AT and shooting them side by side, the recoil of the .32 seems about 1/3 of the .380.

Infer from that what you will, but after that experiment, I will never consider a .32.

Disclaimer: I consider a .380 marginal as a carry gun. I own an LCP but do not carry it. I may some day, but I will not go below that threshold.

[Willo]

I chose a .32 over a .380 because Seecamp doesn't offer .380 in a version that California has approved. And even if they did, I couldn't afford it.

So I do .32. Never a problem with rimlock, knock on wood. Quite honestly I can't see a huge difference between these mouse calibers anyway. You empty the entire gun into whomever happens to be on your arse, and you pray.

Anything less than .38 spl is suspect anyway. Sure 380 might give you a little better chance, but really... how many people here have ever had to draw a gun? How many have ever had to fire one? I'll take a small mouse gun in whatever caliber that's on me, rather than a .45 I left at home, when TSHTF. As long as I don't have to pick off a dude at 40 yards, I think most mouse guns will do pretty much the same thing: make the 'bad guy' start running. Asking much more from a handgun is asking a lot.