VT "Corps of Cadets" ?


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TallPine
April 26, 2007, 05:37 PM
I hate to start yet another VT thread, but this article got me to wondering:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-french25apr25,1,763724.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

The "cadet" was sitting in the front row. What is the "corps of cadets"? Some sort of military group...?

If so, you might already see where my thinking leads .... what if the cadet had been armed?


(arrrghhhh, what a senseless tragedy :( )

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psyopspec
April 26, 2007, 05:54 PM
The term was probably used in lieu of ROTC, or as a more general term if they weren't aware what specific branch of ROTC the student was in. Technically, ROTC falls under Cadet Command, which in turn falls under TRADOC (Training Doctrine/Command, or something to that effect).

SaMx
April 26, 2007, 06:04 PM
Virginia tech is one of the only Universities in the United States that is both a full military and full civilian college. The only other one is Texas A&M (I think).

MechAg94
April 26, 2007, 06:08 PM
Virginia Tech has a Corps of Cadets organization. Several hundred students I believe. I don't think it is quite the same as an ROTC program, but accomplishes the same goal for those seeking military commission.

Texas A&M also has a large Corps of Cadets organization (~2-3000). The entire student body used to be Corps years ago. I wasn't in it so I can't speak as an expert at all.

The only other school that comes to mind is VMI.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 06:09 PM
VT is a land grant college and as such is required to have an ROTC program. The program at VT is as old as the school and also quite large.

The Corp is a separate entity. You can be in ROTC at VT and not join the Corp and you can join the corp and not seek a commission in the military although you must take four years of ROTC courses (from any branch of the military). Think of it as a miltary school within a school such as they have at Texas A&M where about 10% of the students are in the military side of the school.

They have separate uniforms, rank and command structure within the Corp that is mostly run by the cadet with a few faculty member advisors.

DouglasW
April 26, 2007, 06:11 PM
The Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets has a long and storied history. Currently 700 cadets, 20% female. 80% receive military commissions upon graduation (yeah, I looked into it as a high school senior, way back when):

From here (http://www.vtcc.vt.edu/About/CommWelc.php)
Welcome to the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets. Our mission is to graduate leaders of character who are imbued with the concept of service. Since 1872, the Corps of Cadets has produced outstanding leaders for the Commonwealth and the Nation. Seven of our alumni have earned the Medal of Honor, a number exceeded only by West Point and Annapolis. Over 100 of our graduates have been promoted to General and Flag Officer rank. Countless alumni have achieved great success in the professions, business, industry, and public service.

Our leader development program is overseen by the Major General W. Thomas Rice Center for Leader Development. The Rice Center offers a minor in leadership studies. The center sponsors the Cutchins Distinguished Lecture Series, and has brought to campus recognized leaders and opinion-makers including Colin Powell, Stephen Ambrose, George Will, David Gergen, Gloria Borger, Tim Russert, Mary Matalin, and James Carville. The center also presents a regular lecture series by distinguished leaders from across the Nation and administers Cadet Leader School, a five lesson course on the basics of leadership.

The Corps of Cadets is a 24-hour-per-day, 7-days-per-week leadership laboratory. Cadets study leadership, learn from experts, and practice what they have been taught while leading the nearly 800-member Corps of Cadets.

Cadets repeatedly achieve great success at Virginia Tech. During four of the past eight years, the University Man of the Year has been a cadet. For the past three years, the University Undergraduate Leader of the Year has been a cadet. Recently, the cadet who served as Regimental Executive Officer, the number two position in the Corps, also captained the varsity swim team. In both 2001 and 2005 the top Naval ROTC cadet in the entire nation was a member of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets. This is an outstanding achievement, as Navy ROTC cadets from nearly 150 schools compete for this award annually.

Our alumni, staff, and cadets are dedicated to the university motto Ut Prosim, “that I may serve.” I am inspired daily by their exemplary leadership, professionalism, and enthusiasm.

What gives me pause about the VT shootings, particularly with the revelation that there were cadets in those classrooms, is 'why didn't anyone physcially resist/try to overpower the shooter'? I wasn't there and can't honestly say how I would have reacted, but even with only rudimentary weapons the victims grossly outnumbered the shooter. Why didn't these future military officers have the presence to lead an attack and overpower the shooter after the first couple of shootings? That question bugs me.

Run&Shoot
April 26, 2007, 06:11 PM
Here is a link on the history of the VT Corps of Cadets (http://www.vtcc.vt.edu/About/History/)

Basically the college was founded as a military academy and each student was a cadet. This was before Norwich introduced the ROTC program in the early 20th century. Cadets often joined active duty military service after graduation and also many times offered themselves for military duty to the Virginia governor. After WW II the Corps brought in various ROTC programs as well.

Over the years cadet service was reduced to only two of the four years and then became optional so that students could choose to be either in the civilian or cadet program. I think it is now standard for non-service military academies to require all cadets to be in one of the ROTC programs, but do ot require them to join the military after graduation.

Basically the corps of cadets at any military college is a great way for students to experience/enjoy a strict military environment and the associated camaraderie whether they plan to commission or not.

More to the point of a THR post, the cadets often are issued deactivated rifles of some sort (Norwich issues M14s without the firing pin) for drill. Cadets may or may not get some form of training in marksmanship and/or hand to hand fighting. Many though are in the ROTC program and/or National Guard or even active duty enlisted training programs in which they go through sniper, airborne, or any number of other military programs. They would never have functioning arms on campus as part of their Corps membership, but they would be likely to have an above average mindset of alertness and fighting back.

I like your train of thought though, wouldn't it be nice if every cadet could carry their fully functioning M14 with a bandoleer of mags to class? Or at least a 1911 in a leather flap holster. :)

Run&Shoot
April 26, 2007, 06:19 PM
Virginia tech is one of the only Universities in the United States that is both a full military and full civilian college. The only other one is Texas A&M (I think).

Aaaack! Don't forget Norwich University (http://www.norwich.edu)!

Norwich was the first private military academy (1819), was the instigator of the ROTC program, and its founder, Capt. Alden Partridge traveled up and down the eastern coast assisting many other private and state military academies such as VMI. Norwich was the first school to offer an engineering degree program, and first academy to go co-ed. And they're darn proud of all that!

I'm still lusting over the cadets' M14s. I am sure they get to think of them as 9 pounds of cumbersome weight, but in later years some will appreciate what a grand weapon it is.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 06:20 PM
Run & Shoot- It was not so long ago when they had 100 fully functioning M16s, several 60s and 100s of other assorted other weapons at the campus in an arms room.

Things change. They no longer have them and they were just as helpless that fatal day as all the other disarmed victims were.

MechAg94
April 26, 2007, 06:24 PM
The only time I have seen Texas A&M Corps members with weapons is in an honor guard unit called the Ross Volunteers. They use chromed up bolt actions for salutes at certain ceremonial occasions such as Silver Taps.

I am not sure I could say that the Corps members are any more or less responsible with firearms than any other student. They do get extra discipline and leadership training, but I guess it depends on how far you take that.

I have questioned the idea that some students should have been able to fight back. It is unknown if any of them tried. I don't want to say anything bad about the students since some of them could have tried and failed. We only know for sure that some of the students didn't try.

MechAg94
April 26, 2007, 06:29 PM
Run&Shoot, I hadn't heard of Norwich. Thanks for the link.

Texas A&M was just one of the land grant schools established in the late 1800's with the requirement that they include military training. It was a pretty small school up until the 60's. Some fortunate oil revenue that was distributed between universities in Texas and great leadership from University President Earl Rudder started us on the road to 40,000 undergraduate students today. I hope some of you will recognize Rudder's name from WWII.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 06:33 PM
Up the road at VMI they still have many fully functioning M16s, M1s, M1As, m14s, M1911S, M9s, .22s, shotguns, 8'' howitzers etc... Their drill rifles are only missing the firing pin, and are otherwise fully functioning.

They have never had a single incident of on campus shooting.

Run&Shoot
April 26, 2007, 06:43 PM
I did not know much about the private and state academies until my daughter attended Norwich (graduates in May!). All of these institutions are unheralded treasures to our national character (well at least not touted enough).

I would urge any HS graduate looking for a college to attend to consider either a service academy or one of the non-service academies. You will likely come across many firearms enthusiasts as well. Plus, who else gets woken up at 6am by a howitzer? :eek:

What are all of the military academies? The ones I know of are:
Norwich, Citadel, VMI, VT, Texas A&M

Wouldn't it be nice to invite cadets to a free day at Knob Creek?

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 06:59 PM
You left out the service acadamires but you hit all of the others I know of.

There are also many Junior Military Colleges where a graduate is eligible for a commission in the National Guard or Reserve but not active duty. By completing a four year degree they can also obtain a commission active duty. This is where we get the rare 18-20 year old O1.

Is your daughter seeking commission?

TallPine
April 26, 2007, 07:22 PM
I like your train of thought though, wouldn't it be nice if every cadet could carry their fully functioning M14 with a bandoleer of mags to class? Or at least a 1911 in a leather flap holster.

That is what I was thinking...

I did not meant at all to cast any aspersion on any of the unfortunate students, least of all the deceased cadet. But just maybe he could have made a big difference had he been allowed to carry a sidearm.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 07:45 PM
I hear what you are saying but cadets generally do not carry handguns anywhere. Cadets that carry rifles have had them deactivated in some way and never carry ammo unless at the range.

Keep in mind cadets are still subject to civil law and there are not really many allowances made as they do not conduct military operations (at least not since the Civil War) and most military operations inside the US are forbidden anyway.

Most cadets are trained in firearm usage and the cadets in the USMC and Army programs get more than most but they are still not LEOs or given any arrest powers so are not issued weapons. Military personnel on active duty are required by regulation to quell violence, insurrections, defend life and government property if they have the means but the regulations are dreadfully unclear. I would have thought the incident would have qualified though...

psyopspec
April 26, 2007, 07:55 PM
One of the most disappointing things about my ROTC program is the wall of shooting trophies we still keep despite not having a team since the early '90s. The indoor range in the basement of the building is now a storage room since it was closed due to EPA or insurance concerns.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 08:05 PM
Psyopsec- Sounds like a good ROTC project. You can sell it easily to the head of your program under marksmanship improvement. If you want help send me PM. While I have not done anything with ROTC in some time I can point you in the right direction.

One of the things the ROTC cadets at VT did not so many years ago was assist in the construction of an open publc FREE range out in the National Forest near Blacksburg. I hear it has sadly fallen into disrepair but it was once a fine range.

Southern Gobbler
April 26, 2007, 08:15 PM
VTCC grad here. The only thing issued to cadets are demilitarized 1903 Springfield rifles mostly used for drill. These have no firing pin and the barrels are plugged with lead. Quite a waste if you ask me. They just recently they re-militarized a couple of them and they get taken out to the range once a semester. I believe the are still kept in the arms room in one of the barracks. Don't know about ammo. Kinda makes me wish we had some of the cool toys like at VMI.

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 08:21 PM
Gobbler- You do realize that VMI has the guns that used to belong to VT?

Southern Gobbler
April 26, 2007, 08:34 PM
Grrrrr......

Titan - I had no idea but to be honest it doesn't surprise me. Ever since the civilian population here began outnumbering cadets back in the 50's the Corps of Cadets have been under greater contol of the university. And with the current policies it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't allow the corps to keep those firearms. Any idea when they got sent to VMI?

Titan6
April 26, 2007, 11:23 PM
It was a while back in the early 90s IIRC. The issue was not campus politics but rather a lost weapon (a real big oops). The weapons all belong to the Army and the Army can put them where they like.

In mind it should not have resulted in them giving up their armory but that was the call.

Xarph
April 27, 2007, 01:50 AM
I was in the Virgina Tech (VPI) Corps of Cadets in 1963 and 1964. We were issued M1 rifles for drill purposes. The M1s had their firing pins removed. Below is a picture of me with my M1 in 1964.

There was a gun store in Christiansberg (a few miles from VPI) that sold M1 firing pins, 7 round clips and 30.06 ammo. Many cadets would put a firing pin in the issue M1, break it down to three pieces and carry it off campus in our laundry bags and go shooting. Some even used them for dear hunting. This was, of course, strictly against the rules.

I did however, have a fully functioning shotgun, .22 rifle and a Winchester 30-30 lever action rifle hanging on the wall in a rifle rack in my dorm room. These weapons were in open sight in our unlocked rooms (We had an effective honor system at that time). Our dorm rooms were regularly inspected by ROTC officers.Obviously there was no "no guns on campus" rules at the time. The only comments I ever got about these firearms were complements and questions. Time have changed.

====

The reason I came to this site was to find out was has happened to .223 ammo sales. A couple of years ago I could buy 1000 rounds for about $135. Now the price is almost $300 and many places are out of stock. What is going on?

spaceCADETzoom
April 27, 2007, 07:56 AM
But just maybe he could have made a big difference had he been allowed to carry a sidearm.
hehe. Anyone who's been a cadet (or has been their cadre, or otherwise spent much time with them individually) would find the idea of cadets with sidearms absolutely hilarious.

Individuals having CCW is understandable...but being a cadet doesn't make them magically superior. They're regular students. Most of the cadet corps at these historically military schools aren't even "in" the military at all...and of those that are, they're no more "qualified" than any other in usage of a handgun. IN places like T A&M and VT, most of the cadet corps is nothing much more than a fraternal organization. Cadets, of those that actually contracted and seeking a commission are initial entry semi-soldiers. They're not fully trained...as much as a week 6 basic training recruit is not a fully funtioning enlisted soldier, a contracted cadet is not a fully functioning commissioned officer.

Also, keep in mind actual active duty Soldiers are restricted in carrying sidearms while not in a specific duty function. The military is downright fascist in its allowance of issued weapons and privately owned weapons. Active duty JOe on post is not armed 95% of the time (and NONE carry concealed save maybe CID or something). Why would college students who happen to be cadets (and in cases like VT, most likely not even in the Army)?

crebralfix
April 27, 2007, 10:32 AM
I was a member of the VTCoC. I'll never forget having to "drag" down the sides of the halls, with only 90 degree turns at a near run to go around garbage cans and upperclassmen...after asking permission at mach 9:

"goodafternooncadetsargeantenglishnewcadetcrebralfixrequestspermissiontopass."

"Carry on."

::drags on at 90 mph to the next upperclassman::

I'll also never forget how people would forget the time of day...requests would start at "good morning" at one end of the hall and change to "good evening" by the time they got to the other end.

Then there was Cadet Seman...who was in Navy ROTC. Oh, man, the jokes....

crebralfix
April 27, 2007, 10:34 AM
Cadets...sidearms...are you kidding??!!?!?

We were given a ball bearing...our "military" bearing. People couldn't even keep track of that! They'd leave their sidearm on the street if given half a chance.

usp9
April 27, 2007, 10:48 AM
I'm a '75 graduate of VPI&SU. Lot's of bad info posted here so far. The cadet corps is a 24/7 military unit within the school. If you want to be in R.O.T.C. at Tech you must be in the Corps. The advantage is that the training is more extensive than in a regular R.O.T.C. program.

What they actually use for FTX training now I don't know. In the '70's the Corps had a very nicely equiped armory. For example, I "captured" a M60 on an exercise once. I still drool thinking about that vaultroom filled with weapons. Drill was and still is done with the '03s I believe. It's a very good rifle to drill with due to the balance and lack of appendages. It can be made to rattle like Russian tank.

Normal R.O.T.C. training is accomplished along with summer camp, pilot training, advanced leadership, etc. Many cadets for example earn their jump wings at Bragg, (but only after signing a contract).

I've many fond memories of the Upper Quad, Lane Hall, Rasche, the Drill Field, and some great guys, many of whom served our country well.

possum
April 27, 2007, 12:15 PM
hehe. Anyone who's been a cadet (or has been their cadre, or otherwise spent much time with them individually) would find the idea of cadets with sidearms absolutely hilarious.

Individuals having CCW is understandable...but being a cadet doesn't make them magically superior. They're regular students. Most of the cadet corps at these historically military schools aren't even "in" the military at all...and of those that are, they're no more "qualified" than any other in usage of a handgun. IN places like T A&M and VT, most of the cadet corps is nothing much more than a fraternal organization. Cadets, of those that actually contracted and seeking a commission are initial entry semi-soldiers. They're not fully trained...as much as a week 6 basic training recruit is not a fully funtioning enlisted soldier, a contracted cadet is not a fully functioning commissioned officer.

Also, keep in mind actual active duty Soldiers are restricted in carrying sidearms while not in a specific duty function. The military is downright fascist in its allowance of issued weapons and privately owned weapons. Active duty JOe on post is not armed 95% of the time (and NONE carry concealed save maybe CID or something). Why would college students who happen to be cadets (and in cases like VT, most likely not even in the Army)?


my point exactly. this came up on another thread and i tried to explain it but it didn't seem to help! good luck!

K-Romulus
April 27, 2007, 12:45 PM
Air Force Cadet Matthew LaPorte: RIP

I have seen numerous internet board comments that say Cadet LaPorte rushed Cho and tried to take him down. I haven't been able to find a definitive accounting of what happened.

Here is one example of the comments:

http://petsrepresent.blogspot.com/2007/04/healing.html
he tried to stop the gunman... he was the only student who wasn't found in his desk. really, I'm not surprised. when I met Matt, I knew that he was something special. I had a feeling that if he wasn't going to die of natural causes, it would have been trying to protect his friends. What a noble young man.Rest in Peace Matthew ♥


Here is the best mainstream news article I have seen:

http://www.abc27.com/news/stories/0407/416242.html

From abc27:
21 Gun Salute for One Virginia Tech Casualty
Location: New Bloomfield

Reporter: Ali Lanyon
Posted: April 20, 2007 4:52 PM EST
URL: http://www.abc27.com/news/stories//416242.html

New Bloomfield -

A Perry County military school said goodbye to a graduate who died in the Virginia Tech shootings. Carson Long Military Institute in New Bloomfield had a memorial service for Matthew Laporte Friday afternoon.

Hundreds gathered in the chapel at Carson Long Military Institute to pay their last respects. Laporte graduated from Carson Long last year. Half of Matt's graduating class traveled to Carson Long to honor Laporte. Friends say he was shy, but focused.

According to reports Laporte acted as a hero during the Virginia Tech Shooting. Laporte ran towards the shooter hoping to save his classmates. Matt's former teacher at Carson Long, Lt. Garry Hallman, was proud to hear about Laporte's actions in his final moments.

"We had the fortune of knowing him as a boy. The world has the fortune of knowing him as a man, says Lt. Hallman. "It is our hope that everyone just remembers what he wanted out of life was to help other people. As it turned out he did just that. So, we are all very touched."

Laporte went to Virginia Tech on a scholarship.

http://216.250.230.16/whtm/mattlaporte.jpg

and more bio:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/18/virginiatechshooting/main2698407.shtml
CBS/AP)
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2007/04/19/image2703972g.jpg
Matt La Porte, 20, a freshman from Dumont, N.J., was a 2005 graduate of Carson Long Military Institute, in New Bloomfield, Pa.

Carson Long posted a memorial photograph of La Porte in his school uniform on its Web site.

La Porte credited the military institute with turning his life around. In a graduation speech printed in the school yearbook, La Porte said that the military institute was his second chance.

La Porte was attending Virginia Tech on an Air Force ROTC scholarship, according to officials in Dumont.

First Lieutenant Garry Hallman was a friend and instructor at Carson Long who said he kept in touch with his former student. He says La Porte was a member of Virginia Tech's Corps of Cadets and was considering majoring in political science.

According to his profile on a music Web site, La Porte's favorite artists were Meshuggah, Metallica, Soundgarden, Creed and Live.

Titan6
April 27, 2007, 02:47 PM
USP9- Things have changed a little. I can assure you it is quite possible (although rare and frowned upon) to be in ROTC without being a member of the Corps. ROTC is a separate entity from the school and they take everyone who is a student there, in the Corps or not. There is a pecking order of Corp, not Corp...

Also, I forgot about the Virginia Women's Institute for Leadership at Mary Baldwin College. This is also a military school within a school at Mary Baldwin College, with their own Corps. Like the college itself, it is only open to females. I think students there number around 150. They carry demilled M1 Garands that have had the firing pin removed and a welded rod shoved down the barrel. Truly a tragedy that occurred with those beautiful old rifles.

Xarph
April 27, 2007, 06:16 PM
VTCC Rats (Freshmen) are supposed to come to attention when an upperclassman came into your dorm room. They would usually knock twice before bursting in. Sometimes they would not. They slowly and quietly turn the knob, kick to door open and try to scare the crap out of you.

There was one bully type Sophomore who thought this trick was great fun. He became a real pain in the ass. I became fed up.

I took some .22 rounds, removed the lead bullet and replaced it with wax. These rounds were then loaded in my .22 revolver and used to shoot flys in the dorm room. I decided to use them for another purpose.

Sitting at my desk, I heard the door knob turning. I picked up my .22 fly shooter and waited for the door to burst open. As the Sophomore came through the door I fired two wax rounds at his belly while shouting, "you son of a bitch!"

The poor guy grabbed his belly, screamed, bent over and whined. When he realized that he was still alive and uninjured, he walked out the door while shaking all over. He never reported me. He never bothered me or any of my classmates again.

Today, 40 years later, I am horrified by my actions that day. In the context of the time and place my prank was actually a lot kinder than some of the other methods used for dealing with overbearing upperclassman - but those methods did not involve the irresponsible usage of firearms.

RealGun
April 27, 2007, 07:14 PM
Would an armed cadet, a privileged class of student, have personal liability for the safety of every student? I think this whole concept is an effort to seed the campus with pseudo-cops, extending the anti-gun notion that average people should not be allowed to carry firearms.

Run&Shoot
April 27, 2007, 10:42 PM
Some of you guys need to lighten up. :) This is tongue in cheek musing. Probably from us older guys who went to school when it would not be unusual for kids and teachers to have guns in the classroom. I can;lt remember there was even an issue of "concealed carry." Heck we carried anytime we felt like prowling in the fields and woods after school.

On a more serious side, while some of the cadets here may have been irresponsible and clueless, I know my daughter, some of her rook brothers, and my future son-in-law would are much better than the average Joe with handguns and responsibility. She has been shooting since she was about 12.

All any one is suggesting is that any adult student that is old enough to obtain a CHL ought to be able to have one on campus. I just happen to think based on the cdets I have met that as a group they would be more likely to be familiar with firearms and trained to respond in some fashion. certainly they are not active duty military nor LEO.

Does any one here think that only military and LEO ought to be carrying? Let's not start disparaging citizens as unfit, or untrustworthy, to defend themselves or others. Less trained, probably. Unfit, not in any land claiming liberty as an ideal.

TheLastBoyScout
April 27, 2007, 10:56 PM
...my thought was "If he got a contracted cadet, I'm going to say without a doubt that their CCW policy got people killed unnecessarily"

He had the mindset. He didn't have the equipment. By this point (end of sophomore year) pretty much the entire Army and Marine depts here have gotten their intro to the M9 classes and famfires.

Could I lead a platoon in Iraq with what training I have right now? Heck no.

Would I have an even chance at one psycho with a pistol, provided I had one of my own? Definitely.

usp9
April 27, 2007, 11:12 PM
http://www.vtcc.vt.edu/About/ROTC/
"At Virginia Tech, only those students enrolled in the Corps of Cadets may participate in one of the three ROTC programs."

Titan6 USP9- Things have changed a little. I can assure you it is quite possible (although rare and frowned upon) to be in ROTC without being a member of the Corps.


The above link clearly says to enjoy ROTC one must be a member of the CC. Titan6, where are you getting contradictory info? While it has been over thirty years, I think the requirement still stands. If you can provide a link or reference I'd like to see it. Thanks.

Xarph
April 28, 2007, 12:04 AM
Not withstanding armed Cadets, if this photograph had been taken at the VA Tech snack bar, we would not be having this conversation.

Titan6
April 28, 2007, 09:42 AM
That is odd. When I was there in the mid 90s it certainly was possible. Perhaps they changed the policy back.

Jerry Morris
April 28, 2007, 10:06 AM
What gives me pause about the VT shootings, particularly with the revelation that there were cadets in those classrooms, is 'why didn't anyone physcially resist/try to overpower the shooter'? I wasn't there and can't honestly say how I would have reacted, but even with only rudimentary weapons the victims grossly outnumbered the shooter. Why didn't these future military officers have the presence to lead an attack and overpower the shooter after the first couple of shootings? That question bugs me.

My thoughts exactly. One resistor is going to be having problems. A swarm would have overwhelmed the shooter. Some still wounded, or dead, but likely a significantly fewer. And less "glory" for the shooter. But, this is a touchy subject. Be careful, or you can get bushwhacked.

Jerry

TallPine
April 28, 2007, 10:15 AM
I'm sorry I started this thread :(

My only point was that there was as least one person in one of the classrooms where shooting took place, who had the mindset to defend himself and his classmates. Unfortunately, he did not also have the means, nor did anyone join in and help him.

RealGun
April 28, 2007, 10:56 AM
My only point was that there *was *as least one person in one of the classrooms where shooting took place, who had the mindset to defend himself and his classmates.

Yes, we could lighten up, but again here you make an assumption that a cadet had any special mindset. If you were referring to any CHL holder present, I could follow you, except that A CHL holder would feel rather naked, extremely frustrated, and probably wishing he or she had extensive martial arts training. Carrying the handgun is supposed to be the equalizer, to include small women...anyone who would choose not to go easily as a victim and otherwise qualifies.

I would rather be in a class with about 6 huge football players as an intimidation factor, but it wouldn't be their job to protect me, nor should I expect them to be threatening heroes off the playing field.

There is just no logic that would justify some special class of students being armed or expected to react, when some would otherwise qualify to carry on their own.

What if there was an armed cop in every class? Well, that would just be another way to avoid allowing concealed carry by "the people". Meanwhile, the police would not have any legal liability for student safety. And how are you going to effectively staff such a force, let alone pay for it? Looking to cadets is a poor workaround. Not all of them are large, buff candidates for the football team nor should they be privileged in regard to carrying weapons. Few would even be of age for carrying a gun.

rwdflynavy
April 28, 2007, 10:24 PM
Another VTCC grad (1990) here. The way things were in the 80s/early 90s was that you had to be in the Corps to participate in ROTC with the exception of prior enlisted folks enrolled in officer programs. They could skip the Corps and just participate in the ROTC stuff.

TallPine
April 29, 2007, 12:14 AM
Actually I was trying to make an argument for legal CCW on college campuses (or is that "campi" ?) - I guess it just didn't come out right :(

gengarnett
April 29, 2007, 12:30 AM
Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets and the Texas Aggie Corps of Cadets are institutions to be respected, there are damn few left in this country. Neither Corps has anything to do with this tragedy, and to question them is out of line.

Jerry Morris
April 29, 2007, 12:35 AM
Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets and the Texas Aggie Corps of Cadets are institutions to be respected, there are damn few left in this country. Neither Corps has anything to do with this tragedy, and to question them is out of line.

I did not read anything here that denigrated the Corps. In fact I came away with a positive view of it.

Jerry

gengarnett
April 29, 2007, 12:55 AM
i dont' want to take this too far, but the inclination is that cadet corps members could/should have been armed to defend against this murderer. It may be the case that cadet corps members could be trained to carry personal sidearms, but that would only protect a very very small percentage of college students. Most colleges do not have a cadet corps, in fact, many are chasing military recruiters away. Furthermore, the attack at VA Tech happened in one particular building (not counting the first attack) and happened in a few minutes.

the key is allowing ALL citizens who are licensed to carry to carry. In fact, VA Tech made a point of NOT alllowing concealed carry on their campus even though it was legal under Virginia law.

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