Texas Baptist leader's advice: Attack a gunman


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coylh
April 26, 2007, 09:03 PM
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=baptist25&date=20070425&query=baptist

Paige Patterson: "All you had to do was have six or eight [students] rush him right at that time and 32 people wouldn't have died," Patterson said. "You don't let things like that happen, guys. We just don't do it."


Allan Baron: Sgt. Allan Baron of Texas A&M University police told The Dallas Morning News, which first reported the remarks on its Web site Tuesday, that he would not recommend that someone without training charge an armed assailant.

"The best advice you could probably give to somebody in those type of situations is to look for a way to escape and get help immediately," he said.

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Devonai
April 26, 2007, 09:32 PM
I'd rather have a 230 grain copper jacketed lead slug do my rushing for me.

average_shooter
April 26, 2007, 09:37 PM
I'm going to disagree with Devonai here - I prefer a 230 gr. JHP:D

Lupinus
April 26, 2007, 09:53 PM
hell if I am going to be shot while after waiting. Comply until oppertunity arises, if no opertunity arises well hel lI aint got nothing to loose by trying to take the SOB with me.

Iggy
April 26, 2007, 10:04 PM
I don't intend to die on my knees!

Let's Roll!!

TCB in TN
April 26, 2007, 10:23 PM
Sgt. Allan Baron of Texas A&M University police told The Dallas Morning News, which first reported the remarks on its Web site Tuesday, that he would not recommend that someone without training charge an armed assailant.

Yep it is SOOOOOO much better to sit there with you hands over your head, waiting in line for your turn, while the bad guy goes around and does double taps to all of your friends.

Makes me want to just puke.

Mr White
April 26, 2007, 10:30 PM
Hey, if we all start taking responsibility for our own safety, what's left for the cops to do? He's just protecting his job.

Pilgrim
April 26, 2007, 10:37 PM
Sgt. Allan Baron of Texas A&M University police told The Dallas Morning News, which first reported the remarks on its Web site Tuesday, that he would not recommend that someone without training charge an armed assailant.
What kind of training does Sgt. Baron recommend for charging an armed assailant when unarmed?

Pilgrim

pax
April 26, 2007, 10:40 PM
"The best advice you could probably give to somebody in those type of situations is to look for a way to escape and get help immediately," he said.

I think 32 people tried that one.

:(

pax

EZ CZ75
April 26, 2007, 10:43 PM
I don't mean this as any slight to any victims of gun violence. This is just how I feel and believe we should all feel. I 100% agree with Ted.

“You mean to say that when an imbecile walks into a church,
office, day care center, or school, stumbling about, almost
zombie-like, with gun-filled hands at his side, blabbering incoherently
to his next victim, the reaction of grown men and women is to run, cry,
whimper, and hide under a desk or pew? The sheeping of America is
nearly complete.”--Ted Nugent.

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to
go into the world incapable of preventing
violence, injury, crime, and death. How
feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness.
How unnatural. How cheap.
How cowardly. How pathetic."--Ted Nugent.

I like his style.:D

sctman800
April 27, 2007, 02:38 AM
At work tonight a co-worker watched THE 500 CLUB today and the host Pat Robertson said if someone at VT had a gun they could have saved lives. Also this would not have been murder, but stopping an evil enity. That is not a quote but the main theme of what was said. Jim.

sm
April 27, 2007, 02:50 AM
Back off this cop bashing please.

WE do have LEOs on this board, that have made it very clear, and have asked we ALL work to get legislation changed and enacted to adhere to COTUS and not Tyranny.

Enough of this "Us vs Them" - and not just cops and J.Q. Public, other topics as well.

Now many talk a good game, but pee a steady stream down britches legs when faced with a situation.

I was not at VT, I do not know who-all did rush and took heroic actions so others could and did survive.

We need to be Respectful to the fallen and the families of all in tragedies.
We can learn from it, but by golly do it with honor and respect!

If it were you or yours - you would want some honor and respect.

WE can be ambassadors showing how dis-respectful we are to the fallen, to each other, and outsiders.
Or
WE can be ambassadors showing respect, honor to the fallen, each other and get some changes made to better things for JQ Public and LEOs.

coelacanth
April 27, 2007, 03:17 AM
I can't honestly say what I've seen here amounts to LEO bashing. Whenever an event like this takes place people cannot help but speculate on what happened and why. We cannot help but put ourselves in the situation as it is described to us and see if what we've heard makes any sense. It is in fact not a disrespectful act but one done out of empathy with the victims and their survivors. LEO's making public statements are well aware that those statements can and will be examined in the court of public opinion to determine their worth. Critique does not equal disrespect IMHO.

GhostlyKarliion
April 27, 2007, 04:20 AM
Honestly, this "lets assume that everything everyone says is cop-bashing" routine has got to stop.

The officer in question, Sgt. Allan Baron, is wrong. No apologies, no retractions, and no sugar coating about that, he is simply wrong - end of question.

At least, that is my opinion, and unless someone gives me some overwhelming evidence to the contrary it isn't likely to change.

The remarks made by THR members about what he said are within the scope of personal opinion and have a definite place here, this is a place for discussion.

This "US Vs. THEM" mentality is not "WE vs. COPS" but rather "WE VIGILANT Vs. THE NONVIGILANT"
"WE BRAVE Vs. THE COWARDLY"
"WE HONORABLE Vs. THE DISHONORABLE"

I know police officers who live their mandate to Protect and Serve, they like the idea of people carrying firearms, they like the idea of people defending themselves, and dare I say it, they like the idea of an armed citizen stopping a crime.

I have never checked demographics but I'd be willing to bet those I know are not flukes, I’d bet there are more out there, many more.

I am an ordained Minister, a street Preacher, a devout Christian, would I shoot an armed attacker to protect the lives of the innocent? Absolutely, 100% of the time strangely enough if it is just me on the line I probably would not be trying to kill him, but if there is imminent danger to others, then I would act to stop the threat in the shortest amount of time possible.

I am really getting tired of hearing this stuff about "cops who tell people to become victims are just doing their job" no they are not, they are just trying to get people killed. Maybe it's some officer’s jobs now to get people killed, but it sure as hell isn't acceptable, on any level.

chris in va
April 27, 2007, 04:27 AM
I highly suspect in a real situation most people would not have a coordinated attack against someone armed and shooting. Wishful thinking.

Our instincts take over and they start yelling GET AWAY or HIDE.

230RN
April 27, 2007, 05:08 AM
All right, I've been wanting to say this for a while.

So I will, and the devil take the consequences.

Soon after 9/11 I recommended to our Security Department Chief that they issue paint masks to the people in our company --this, in light of the very high dangers associated with all the dust coming from collapsing buildings.

You remember the video of the guy running down the street towards the camera with an enormous dust cloud rolling along after him, a la the boulder chasing Indiana Jones in the "Raiders" movie?

You know what the reaction was?

"Issuing masks would only create panic among the employees."

So some time later, after another one of those rampages among an unarmed group of people, I figured it might be a good idea for our Security Department to set up a little training, at least in the form of recommendations on our company's internal web site, as to what to do in a case of something like the VT tragedy (although this was several years before.)

I figured if we all knew a code word or phrase for the brave among us to instantly and simultaneously rush an attacker in these situations, a couple would get hurt and possibly killed, but lives would undoubtedly be saved.

Guess what I did.

I decided to make no more waves which would probably only reflect on the wimpishness of our Security Department and to therefore keep my mouth shut.

But for me, what the hell, I'm 67, lived a good life, but if I, alone, unarmed (guns stirctly not allowed there), woiuld rush such an assailant, it might encourage others to follow me, even if I am the first to go down in a crumpled heap.

Maybe. Maybe not. But to echo someone else in a previous post, I sure as hell ain't going to die on my knees.

And pee sure as hell ain't going to be running down my pants.

LET'S ROLL!

Lucky
April 27, 2007, 06:21 AM
In a crisis there is no organization right away, just from crisi I've seen. Many just dazed or confused. The one who helps you might be an 80-year old lady, while a 30-year old man freezes. They say it's all about your personality, my great great aunt fought off two young muggers, alone, in a park. She got thrown down (or fell, while swinging her walker) and broke a hip, but kept her purse. That is a decent person. That's the type of person Allan Baron despises.

Just a suggestion, but saying a code word might just get the guy to focus on you as you stand up, while you'd be better off rushing him or running away if the maniac is focusing elsewhere at that moment.

If anyone else was thinking, they'd demonstrate it by helping, if they don't help then they are too 'out of it' to hear a code-word anyway.




SM - I think you are wrong. Just like Allan Baron is wrong. If you're white, does that mean I'm bashing white people? Of course not. You are either using a straw-man argument, or are very confused to the point that you can't distinguish individuals from tremendously vast groups. (or you yourself are stereotyping all police officers to be as despicable as Allan Baron - shame)

Since it's not acceptable to use curse words, a more detailed description of Allan Baron is "egotist", "elitist", "disconnected from reality", "heartless", "arrogant", "two-faced", "busy-body", "hypocrite".

paramedic70002
April 27, 2007, 07:59 AM
(Not LEO bashing)

The police are the only ones professional enaough to save your ass when you're staring down the barrel of a gun.

Mr White
April 27, 2007, 08:01 AM
Back off this cop bashing please.

WE do have LEOs on this board, that have made it very clear, and have asked we ALL work to get legislation changed and enacted to adhere to COTUS and not Tyranny.

Enough of this "Us vs Them" - and not just cops and J.Q. Public, other topics as well.

Now many talk a good game, but pee a steady stream down britches legs when faced with a situation.

I was not at VT, I do not know who-all did rush and took heroic actions so others could and did survive.

We need to be Respectful to the fallen and the families of all in tragedies.
We can learn from it, but by golly do it with honor and respect!

If it were you or yours - you would want some honor and respect.

WE can be ambassadors showing how dis-respectful we are to the fallen, to each other, and outsiders.
Or
WE can be ambassadors showing respect, honor to the fallen, each other and get some changes made to better things for JQ Public and LEOs.
I wasn't bashing all cops, just that particular one. I have the utmost respect for LE in general, but just as in any profession, they have their share of idiots.

Henry Bowman
April 27, 2007, 10:32 AM
The good Baptist leader is right, but I can't sit here after the fact and say what someone "should" have done under the circumstances they were facing at that moment. That's why it's good to think about unlikely, but possible, scenarios ahead of time.

Even the passengers of "Let's roll!" fame on 9/11 didn't react instantly. They had an hour or more to analyse the situation and form a plan. Today, passengers would react to that same situation more quickly, but I can't say how quickly we could/would react in a different situation.

junyo
April 27, 2007, 11:14 AM
It's one thing to say "they should have rushed him" in the abstract, and quite another thing to be the first guy facing the Glock with nothing but bare fists. I think once the ball start rolling, plenty of people would follow the first guy in, but it's really hard to be that, pretty much guaranteed to die, guy. I like to think I'd chuck a chair at the guy and wade in, but how many shots does he get in if you've got to rush him from any kind of distance? That's why consistently, one guy with a gun can control ridiculously large groups of unarmed people; Alvin York and 7 Americans captured and marched 132 Germans back to his lines, Holocaust Jews crammed in ghettos or camps out numbered their guards by a decent factor but rarely attempted to violently resist.

There's an old John Wayne movie where he's confronted by a guy of bad guys. He draws his gun and shoots the pistol out of one bad guy's hand, then is in a standoff with the rest of them. One of them thinks to rush him and says something like 'He's only got 5 bullets left!' To which Wayne replies, 'So which 5 of you want 'em?' Nobody volunteers, and the bad guys back down. For most people, until you think there's a good chance that you (you personally, not the guy next to you) are dead anyway, you're doing that math.

Keep in mind, I'm not advocating passivity, just dissecting it, and appreciating why a gun is a heck of an equalizer.

230RN
April 27, 2007, 12:11 PM
Lucky:

Just a suggestion, but saying a code word might just get the guy to focus on you as you stand up, while you'd be better off rushing him or running away if the maniac is focusing elsewhere at that moment.

I realize I'd be the first hit, but...

junyo:

It's one thing to say "they should have rushed him" in the abstract, and quite another thing to be the first guy facing the Glock with nothing but bare fists. I think once the ball start rolling, plenty of people would follow the first guy in, but it's really hard to be that, pretty much guaranteed to die, guy.

..that's why I noted that I was 67 years old. I'm prepared for it. I don't want to "throw myself on the grenade," but I will if it looks like that's what's called for.

I guess really what I'm saying is that the wimpisheness demonstrated by my company's Security Department probably goes through a lot of Security Deprtments/Managemenmt types: "Don't get the employees upset with things like that." Yet a little preparation, a little planning, and things could easily turn out better, with fewer casualties.

Too many people live in a Diznee world.

sb350hp
April 27, 2007, 02:05 PM
Just as in nature itself we have two instincs, FIGHT or FLIGHT. Unfortunatley in this PC atmosphere we are trained not to defend our selves, family or country for that matter. We are taught to comply and negotiate in a diplomatic manner. So with the constant bombarment from the liberal left, shools, and press FLIGHT has become the natural reaction for most of society.

Until we begin teaching in the mainstream that the gov't will not and cannot always protect you and that you must learn basic survival methods, nothing will change.

We need more shepherds in society and less sheeple.

PrimaryB
April 27, 2007, 08:08 PM
I work at a top 10 land grant university. Last year the ratio of students was 6 women to 1 male reportedly living on campus. When people suggest "they should have rushed him", who is "they"?

This has been a hot topic at work but keep in mind the conversation was amongst males who are in their 40's and up. Whole different mentality that comes with age. Besides I personally have not been in a situation such as this and I doubt anyone else has. If you have then please elaborate on your experiences.

If I were a parent of one of the VT victims the last thing I would want to read or hear was a comment by a progunner that my daughter or son didn't react in the eyes of such, appropriately. It would ANGER me but unfortunately for some parents the focus would change from the evil person to gun ownership.

Talk is cheap. I don't mean any insult to anyone but please reflect on your own past. Remember the time you didn't stand up to the school yard bully? The last time you did something you didn't want to do because of peer pressure. How about the last time you took 4 rounds rounds to the chest to stop an assailant?

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