Garand out shot by my Kraut!


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BsChoy
April 26, 2007, 09:31 PM
I took some handloads out today with my Greef FG M1 and 1944 BNZ Mauser and the mauser shot rings around the garand?! The Mausers best group with 46.0 grains of IMR4064 under a 150 Hornady spirepoint shot a reverse letter "c" with a spread of about 1.5-2 inches. The garand looked like a 30 cal shot gun with 150 Ballistic tips over 46.0,46.5,47.0 grains, 5 shots each, of IMR4064 seated to 3.32 oal. Would using a bullet closer in profile to the M2 ball work better or something with a cannelure to crimp into as I have heard that this will sometime help consistency?

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Grumulkin
April 26, 2007, 09:44 PM
I don't use crimps for 30/06 loads and Varget is my choice for powder (not that IMR 4064 isn't good). I get about 1.5 to 2 inch groups in my Garand with military surplus loads so I would presume you should be able to do much better than you have done unless the barrel is pretty tired.

For accuracy loads, I use Varget and Nosler 168 grain match bullets. My best 3 shot group at 100 yards with this combination was about 0.5 inches though most run in the 1.5 inch range.

USSR
April 26, 2007, 09:58 PM
BsChoy,

Not enough powder. 47.0gr of 4064 is a good load for a 168gr bullet, but with a 150gr bullet, you'll need to use a bit more. Try working your way up to 48.5gr and I think you will find more accuracy.

Don

Sunray
April 27, 2007, 12:56 AM
You need to work up a load, not just pick one. You using milsurp brass? Your 8mm and .30-06 loads are below the starting load for a 150 grain bullet using IMR4064. You should go buy a manual and read it.

BsChoy
April 27, 2007, 01:18 AM
I have several manuals and I am aware the starts are are low but my Garand's Op rod being over 100.00 to replace if i bend it, is more important to me. With these loads the gun cycled vigorously and recoil was on par with greek surplus so I think I was in the ball park with velocity.

asknight
April 27, 2007, 02:00 AM
BsChoy, respectfully, please don't measure velocity by recoil. Your shoulder and op-rod will thank you.

That said, I agree with others that your load is a bit anemic and would look at 48.0 - 48.5 grains for better accuracy.

A crimp will likely only help your consistency on this load if your Garand is nosediving the round and setting the bullet back upon chambering.

BsChoy
April 27, 2007, 02:46 AM
Asknight, don't simple rules of physics apply? For every action you get an equal and opposite reaction? The faster the round goes out the faster (harder) it comes back? I thought that was the principle.

I am not looking for 3000 fps out of this load. Just want and accurate load with a minimum of testing I guess. I just know that 46.0gr of imr4064 with the 168 amaxes I have recoiled pretty hard for a gas gun and I want a fun round that will drop a whitetail if necessary thats all.

Steve in PA
April 27, 2007, 04:20 AM
47.0gr and a 150gr bullet is pretty much the standard load for the Garand. My K98 will shoot better groups than my Garand. And my 1903A3 will shoot better groups than the K98.

Your not going to get bolt action accuracy out of your average Garand. The Garands that shot that well were turned into sniper rifles.

M1 Garand 150gr (8 shots plus 1 sighter)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid142/p48c61973515603b6acbfb22fc6da11e7/f6a77ee8.jpg

M1 Garand 168gr (8 shots)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid128/pfda40fd3bfc41cadafc5b3eb0de294d7/f7d39946.jpg

K98k 150gr (two 5 shot groups)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid206/p9cfbb71efea2aa866045abbd79283368/eed273bc.jpg

1903A3 150gr (two 5 shot groups)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid144/pe3d48d4ce0201d134d0126fa64a96b0a/f681cf36.jpg

asknight
April 27, 2007, 06:21 AM
BsChoy, sure, all laws of physics apply... but your shoulder doesn't gauge pressure spike, timing (fractions of seconds), and velocity.

Burn rate of powder is critical in the Garand. A SAAMI max pressure spike after the bullet has passed the gas port and you end up with a bent op-rod.

A slower powder used in a load that gives the same velocity as a faster burning powder(charges adjusted accordingly) will give your shoulder less of a snap during recoil, but increases force on the op-rod due to the max pressure spike occurring when the bullet is at or past the gas port.

That's why a chronograph is imperative to hand loading for semi-autos, and it's even more imperative to stick between documented starting and max loads with documented powders.

SteveinPA, he's using 4064, not 4895 like shown in your documented targets.

IMR data on .30-06 here (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp). Please note that 47.0grs is STARTING LOAD for the 4064. STARTING LOAD for 4895 is 49.0grs.

From the NRA Publication "The M1 Rifle" here are the .mil equivalent loads for commercial cases (download by 1.5gr to start with mil cases):
147/150 gr Bullet
IMR3031 = 48gr
IMR4895 = 49gr
IMR4064 = 50gr
Win 748 Ball 48.0 grs.
Acc AA2460 49.0 grs.
Acc AA2520 51.0 grs.
Acc 2495BR 50.5 grs.
Hod H-4895 49.0 grs.
Hod BL-C2 49.0 grs.
Hod H-335 49.0 grs.
Herc Re-12 48.0 grs.

165/168 gr Bullet
IMR4895 = 47gr
IMR4064 = 48gr

173/175 gr Bullet
IMR4895 = 46gr
IMR4064 = 47gr

180 gr Bullet
IMR4895 = 43gr

USSR
April 27, 2007, 09:58 AM
BsChoy,

asknight nailed it. It's not the velocity of the load that bends/breaks M1 oprods, it's the amount of port pressure. IMR4064 produces the correct amount of pressure at the port in normal doses, and will not cause you to replace a $100 oprod.

Don

BsChoy
April 27, 2007, 11:11 AM
Sorry fellas I am familiar with the port pressure needs of the M1 and the correct powder speeds and charges but I was just stating what I believed to be the simple physics of shooting as asknight stated that my shoulder is not the correct thing to use in judging bullet speed. I appreciate the input gentlemen as always however and will take any and all help I can get. :)

10X
April 27, 2007, 11:19 AM
i found with 150s that more 4064, up to 52 grains depending on the individual M1, gave better accuracy. Mid range charges, 48 grains, worked better for 168s.

I don't wont to make assumptions, but something else to consider, many M1s are slightly loose in their stocks from compression over the years or the many disassemblies. That may be part of the accuracy issue. A little bit of bedding makes a huge difference in those cases.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
April 27, 2007, 11:42 AM
One thing you may not be considering is the condition of your Garand. If a Garand is pretty worn (and a lot of them are) you won't get great accuracy. I would work up a load for the rifle based on the information above and if I didn't see accuracy improvements, I would examine the condition of my barrel, headspace, wether or not the rifle was "tight" or "loose" mechanically, etc.

It's quite easy to get two rifles of a same time period and see one that outshoots the other due to condition and due to "load match" as discussed above.

Since you didn't state the condition of your rifles, I can't make a judgement call and wouldn't do so, without a set of gauges for the prospective rifles. But the approach I suggested is the most economical and speedy route to solving the issue.

Bottom line typically is unless the Garand has been tuned, the Kraut bolt should be more accurate at the range (assuming good eyes), while the Garand offers better practical accuracy in the field due to better sights and not having to cycle a bolt. A reasonable level of accuracy for your M1 should be better 1 and 3 inches if everything is in good shape

Regards,

Dave

30Cal
April 27, 2007, 04:39 PM
If the M1 doesn't shoot decent with a good bullet, the there's probably some rifle issues--a less than stellar muzzle crown (most of the FG's I've seen have been past 2 on the MW gage), less than vise-like stock fit, marginal trigger group lock-up.

ace1001
April 27, 2007, 09:13 PM
A good bolt action will always outshoot a simular quality automatic. Just steadier and no gas port. Ace

SlamFire1
April 27, 2007, 11:55 PM
It is an exceptional rack grade Garand that shoots as well as an average bolt gun. The as issued Garand was not a target rifle, you can read plenty of vintage stories of the inferior accuracy of the Garand compared to the M1903.

The accuracy criteria for the late 50's NM Garands was 3.5 MOA. If the rifle did not shoot 3.5 MOA, it was rejected. An average service rifle bolt gun will shoot 2.0 MOA with decent ammunition. A real good one will do better.

It was not until quality match barrels,the use of epoxy glues to "glass bed" the action, and other match techniques, was the Garand developed into a rifle that would shoot 1 MOA.

jaimeshawn
April 29, 2007, 02:26 AM
It is possible that your barrel is worn out. How does it look at the muzzle when you use a cartridge as a gage? A Garand can have an amazing amount of throat erosion and still shoot good if the muzzle looks good.

I've built two Garands from parts, and some of the parts floating around have already seen a life-time or two of use. It's not a case of inferior metal or machining - it's just some Garands have parts that have done their duty, and then some.

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