Handguns of the elite?


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MP-44
January 7, 2003, 05:44 PM
What are the elite units around the world using nowadays?

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Ala Dan
January 7, 2003, 06:15 PM
I believe the SIG-Sauer P226 is still in use by the
U.S. Navy Seal Teams and the British SAS; and the P228
is in use by U.S. Navy Intelligence and the U.S. Army C.I.D.
unit's.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

dacinokc
January 7, 2003, 06:44 PM
SAS also has a stable of HP-35s still. In the US, SOCOM did the famous trials resulting in the acquisition of the MK23 H&K. While many units have them and use them, no one solely uses the MK 23. The Combat Applications Group made a large purchase of Wilson built 45s, and still uses them as primary sidearms of choice. The Berretta M9 is widely trained with due to its use throughout the services now, and is used by Rangers.
The GsG9 also uses Sigs and Walthers, and still has a goodly inventory of S&W revolvers for use as needed.
One of the points of truly small elite units is that within the constraint of required consistency of what is carried in an operation, they have extreme flexability to use the specifc right tools for the job.

Rob96
January 7, 2003, 06:51 PM
All of the different photos from The War on Terrorism, show Army SF guys carrying Berettas, Seals carrying Sigs, Air Force spec op guys with Berettas.

Glockorama
January 7, 2003, 08:15 PM
I've seen pics of Russian Spetznas units with CZ-75's in SOF. I don't think they are standard issue (probably Maks), but there were several pics of different soldiers and all but 1 had a CZ. I think the Isreali's use thier CZ clones as well.

para.2
January 7, 2003, 10:15 PM
SFOD-D uses 1911-A1s. Not sure who builds them.

dacinokc
January 7, 2003, 11:50 PM
Rob 96, one of the best photos after the conclusion of the active campagin was of a US SF operator after the Karza assasination attempt- he was carry a M-4 Carbine, and had a Sig 228- the M11 on his belt along with a grenade or two! He had is shirt on his head as a turban,and had full whiskers. After the shots went public some genus in command required everyone to go clean shaven! Apparently someone who never had to live with Indiginious folks and make a go of it!

Para.2, for the most part everyone has different names than you might think. There is no org chart anywhere that actually has Delta on it.
When they recruit internally to the Military, they do call it SFOD-D, but the specific group most think of when discussing them is the Combat Applications Group (CAG) which is the active core of the detachment.
It is very much like how what used to be refered to as Seal Team Six is now known in the services as the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (DSWDG) to make the lives of operators a little easier.

The 45s were wilsons. :scrutiny:

Admiral Thrawn
January 8, 2003, 04:22 AM
Yes dacinokc, i've seen those exact pictures in a SOF magazine issue I just bought today...

In the caption of the guy with a grenade on his belt, it said something about this being used if a crowd tried to charge them... :eek:

Rob96
January 8, 2003, 05:01 AM
I saw that pic also. Seem to remember it being stated in the article that he was a Navy Seal.

Rob96
January 8, 2003, 05:03 AM
I haven't heard anyhing about USAF op's guys being asigned to dignitary protection. From what I have read , it seems to be a job reserved for the Army SF/ Delta, and Seal Team 6.

Rob96
January 8, 2003, 05:11 AM
OK, went and re-checked the SOF article on the Karzai attempt. The operator is a member of Seal Team 6 with a M11 on his belt and a grenade. Also has a 10.5" barreled M4.

Rob96
January 8, 2003, 05:17 AM
Israeli SF uses Sig 226/228 and the Glock 17/19, according to www.isayeret.com

firestar
January 8, 2003, 06:04 AM
What? Where are all the S&W autos?:neener:

Kahr carrier
January 8, 2003, 08:09 AM
The CHP is using S&W.:neener:

dacinokc
January 8, 2003, 08:11 AM
My bad! Sorry Rob96, DSWDG, not a CAG!
:banghead:

denfoote
January 8, 2003, 08:15 AM
Hey, I use a Kahr MK9 Elite and I think I'm special!! So does my wife. ;)

Rob96
January 8, 2003, 06:08 PM
S&W? Doesn't Seals use S&W 66's or 686's for certain op's?

dacinokc
January 8, 2003, 08:22 PM
They may have moved to the 686, but you are right, they did at least at one time have a good inventory of the 66- the stainless gun was ideal for saltwater enviormental use. SF used them in the tropics for the same reason.

Frohickey
January 8, 2003, 09:10 PM
Close shave for special ops forces (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/12/afghanistan.clean/)

That would be Maj. Gen. Geoff Lambert, who clamped down on the relaxed grooming standards for special ops forces in Afghanistan.

Skunkabilly
January 8, 2003, 09:53 PM
KZ45, USP45C, Beretta 92G Elite II and P7M8.

I **AM** the elite! :D

Island Beretta
January 8, 2003, 11:03 PM
BHP was most common..for most changing out the Beretta 92, or some derivative thereof, followed by Glock is the most popular. Sig is seeing some selections here and there but will always be a bridesmaid to Beretta!!

One big advantage of the Beretta is how effectively it can be suppressed. It is also made to go straight from the factory into the battlefield and function..The very heavy hammer strike ensures positive ignition on sometimes tough primer head NATO rounds..it has a 50 yd effective range that facilitates one weapon carry like for flight crews etc....:cool: (hey, I gotta stop!!). okay a couple more.. If a trigger spring breakage occur you can reset the drawbar yourself, it facilitates direct chamber load without damage to the extractor, the locking block if its breaks is still good for a couple hundred more rounds (okay, that's it).. TRULY A TACTICAL PISTOL!!

PATH
January 8, 2003, 11:19 PM
What! No mention of elitr mall ninjas!:uhoh: :confused:

Orion
January 8, 2003, 11:33 PM
Gee, I think someones a little stuck on the Italian version of the Helwan.

I think Most Elite Forces are using either the Sig or the 1911 with a few BHP's thrown in there as well.. There may be some other pistols in use out there but I don't know.

Blueduck
January 8, 2003, 11:49 PM
Fun as it is to know what the "elite" are carrying, may not be bad to remember that whatever they are was likely selected by the lowest bid off a list of choices selected by some bureaucrat....

sixgun_symphony
January 9, 2003, 05:48 AM
That would be Maj. Gen. Geoff Lambert, who clamped down on the relaxed grooming standards for special ops forces in Afghanistan.

Pinky Da Turd!


Anyone that read any of Marcinko's books will know...

sixgun_symphony
January 9, 2003, 05:50 AM
I wonder how many elite troops get to carry what ever they want?

As in bringing their pet Colt Python from home with them to Afghanistan.

Joe Demko
January 9, 2003, 11:26 AM
The truly elite continue to use the Webley-Vickers 50.80, as they have for decades.

Sean Smith
January 9, 2003, 12:28 PM
The 45s were wilsons.

I've heard that claim is dead wrong. What's your source? Just curious... I don't know that mine is right, either.

Handy
January 9, 2003, 02:45 PM
Who's carrying Glocks?

How is the 92 an Italian COPY of a Helwan? Where do you think the Helwan came from????

There's a Spanish counter terrorist team still using their excellent HK P9Ss.

Orion
January 12, 2003, 09:49 PM
Settle down Handy I was just yankin' someones chain. the Beretta design is actually a copy of the Walther P-38 with a modified slide.

Shaughn Leayme
January 12, 2003, 10:34 PM
The Marine Corps MEU(SOC) are using an inhouse built 1911A1 Pistol.

Delta is said to also use an inhouse built 1911A1.

LAPD was using an inhouse built 1911A1, but I thought they had changed recently.

The FBI hostage recovery team has been known to use a 1911 built on a Para Ordnance frame modified by Les Baer.

FBI's regional SWAT teams were having their 1911 made for them by Springfield Inc.

Several other US agencies, with Counter terrorism overlap have also adopted a Les Baer modified 1911.

SEAL's have been using S&W 686's, because they can be fired shortly after leaving the water and are resistant to saltwater corrosion.

It also depends on the mission, if you aren't supposed to be there or if an (insert here) presence would cause flak for the (insert here) country, then they might use non specific weaponry.

It has been awhile since I brushed up on this interesting field of endeavor, so this information could be out of date.

Amish
August 29, 2003, 06:27 PM
German KSK special forces uses the USP9 also known as the P8.
Austrailian SAS and other special groups uses the USP9 as well.

355sigfan
August 29, 2003, 09:16 PM
SEAL's have been using S&W 686's, because they can be fired shortly after leaving the water and are resistant to saltwater corrosion.
END
Every seal I have ever talked to told me the 686's stay in storage and only a few individuals use them. The biggest use they had for them according to the people I have trained was as wax bullet launchers during training. All guns can be fired after getting out of the water and even under water. Glock makes a special firing pin unit for thier 17's that allow them to fire reliably under water.

The acutal truth is that there is no huge prefrence among elite units as to the brand or type. There are a lot using 1911's, some using sigs, some Beretta's a fair number of Glocks. The tools vary as much as the men in the units. The man behind the gun is more important that the gun.
Pat

Rob96
August 30, 2003, 08:17 AM
Quoting Frogman from TF

686's are still in use for long combat swimmer ops and very silty areas. When cleaning them after a dive, remove the grips and sideplate and nylon brush the gun with Dunk-it (available through Cylinder and Slide). Clean cylinder and bore as usual and blow out gun with LP air.

jc2
August 30, 2003, 09:28 AM
That goes along with what I've been told. The 686 is the weapon of choice in silty and sandy waters. The silt and sand in the water gets in the magazines on automatics and causes all type of feeding problems.

SelfProclaimedExpert
August 30, 2003, 01:32 PM
I keep hearing the "alot of units use 1911s and Glocks" saw. I can only think of two 1911 users and no Glock guys.

Who are you guys talking about?

PeteyPete
August 30, 2003, 01:53 PM
In the book "Inside Delta Force", the author (Eric Haney) said he was trained w/ a Colt 1911-A1, and mentioned that they have inhouse gunsmiths that customize them. However, he was one of the founding members of SFOD-D, so the info is a bit dated.

Trumpet
August 30, 2003, 03:09 PM
I still think that pic from the attempted Karzai assassination (the guy had the tshirt on his head as a bandage, not a turban) would be a PERFECT ad campaign for Levi's Dockers.....

[flash to operators waist, complete with M11 and grenades] "Nice Pants"

:D

rich

Wanderer
August 30, 2003, 03:50 PM
I hear some group in france uses the Glock 17L, longslide version.

Gary H
August 30, 2003, 04:04 PM
http://pages.prodigy.net/geoffc/DianeF.jpg

I was looking for a photo of Diane holding her .38, but didn't find it. This is an old photo that we have all seen, but a good reminder for those of you who think that some grunt with a gun represents the true 'elite'.

CHECK OUT THE TRIGGER FINGER

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