FoXNews.com: Feds Raid Alabama Militia Group, Uncover Small Weapons Arsenal


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Ohioan
April 27, 2007, 02:06 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html


Those in custody aren't being charged with any plot to use the grenades against anyone, however, but will be charged with weapons possession and stockpiling.

Is the stockpiling of ammo breaking the law? And what do they consider stockpiling? Or is it just an innaccurate statement? Or dealing with the explosives?

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Kali Endgame
April 27, 2007, 02:14 PM
Guns, Drugs, Bombs, Machine guns, oh my. They definitely stepped in it this time.

If Ohio has limits on the number of rounds you can have, then stockpilling could be a crime.

At least they didn't get charged with RICO.

Ohioan
April 27, 2007, 02:17 PM
I don't kow if Ohio does or not... I should find out...
I have a little 9mm and about 1000rnds of 7.62x54R but that's about it



"RICO"?

Prince Yamato
April 27, 2007, 02:22 PM
Agents also found more than 120 marijuana plants, Martin said.

2500 rounds of ammo... ooh... hardly enough to fill a U-Haul... but I could understand the drug charges... which they mention AT THE BOTTOM of the article! :fire:

Ohioan
April 27, 2007, 02:25 PM
Silly Prince Yamato, pot plants won't kill innocent children at the school next door.... :scrutiny: actually oh, a lightbulb just went off... i wonder who they were selling tha tpot to?

mindwip
April 27, 2007, 02:26 PM
Rico is a law that says if you hang around your friends you can go to jail. Because it is posable you were thinking bad thoughts. And you might of carried them out so the Feds send you off to jail early. It was ment to break up the mafia, sense when all the "bad guys" meet nothing good could come from it. So they thought hay lets keep them from meeting. Thats what i heard rico is, but could be wrong.

eng23ine
April 27, 2007, 02:26 PM
Agents also recovered enough live ammo to fill a U-Haul trailer

2500 rounds of ammunition

Must be a REALLY small U-haul.

Anybody know the exact numbers that are needed to be considered "stockpiled"?

Titan6
April 27, 2007, 02:30 PM
120 plants? Maybe not for personal use?

Drugs and guns... Sounds like someone decided to put a gang together and call it a militia. 2500 rounds is not even enough for a day at the range for a platoon.

Big Calhoun
April 27, 2007, 02:30 PM
Somehow, I think the rounds of ammo are the least of the concerns in this scenario...

BigO01
April 27, 2007, 02:32 PM
COLLINSVILLE, Ala. Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similiar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

Well it sounds like the grenades and IED's will be enough to send them away for a very long time .

Robert Hairless
April 27, 2007, 02:35 PM
Look at the first paragraph of that article:

Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similiar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

GhostlyKarliion
April 27, 2007, 02:37 PM
Drugs and guns... Sounds like someone decided to put a gang together and call it a militia. 2500 rounds is not even enough for a day at the range for a platoon

What platoon... 2500 is not enough far a whole day at the range for me...

heh, that doesn't sound like a 'militia' to me, more like a group of people have a stock pile of weapons.

Illegal federal law makes that a crime now I guess.

Sad... so sad.

Jim K
April 27, 2007, 02:38 PM
"Stockpiling" is one of those terms used by lazy LEOs and ignorant reporters who don't want to bother to find out what the law says. There is no such term in federal law that I know of.

But it makes great PR for BATFE, and their appropiations bill comes up soon, which is what it is all about. I have no doubt that the group exists, but I wonder how long BATFE has known about it, and been willing to endanger the public while waiting for the right moment to impress Congress.

Jim

22-rimfire
April 27, 2007, 02:41 PM
I believe the charge is a weapons charge although there is probably a drug charge as well. It really gets me that news people report 2,500 rounds as something significant. For a militia group, I suspect the ammo quantity is rather small considering they probably buy in case lots. There supply must have been getting low.

Ala Dan
April 27, 2007, 02:42 PM
I don't blame federal officers for taking the drugs and drug dealers, pushers,
or illegal substance users off the street; but in my way of think'in 2500
rounds of ammuntiion, ain't a'bout nothing. With the scarcity of surplus .223
ammo mounting everyday, and the escalation of its pricing all who shoot this
caliber need to stockpile all they can get~! I don't have nearly that much on
hand, but I'm thinking of picking up a couple 1,000 round cases myself from
my employer. Of course, I'm not a member of any militia or para-military group
either~! ;) :D

22-rimfire
April 27, 2007, 02:45 PM
I shutter to think what the news people would say about me if I ever did anything illegal. I really don't even know how much ammo I have on hand, but if you count 22 ammo, then a lot from a news reporter's perspective anyway.

220_Swift
April 27, 2007, 02:49 PM
Rico is a law that says if you hang around your friends you can go to jail. Because it is posable you were thinking bad thoughts. And you might of carried them out so the Feds send you off to jail early. It was ment to break up the mafia, sense when all the "bad guys" meet nothing good could come from it. So they thought hay lets keep them from meeting. Thats what i heard rico is, but could be wrong.


RICO Stands for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations, and is known as the RICO Act.

Under RICO, a person or group who commits any two of 35 crimes—27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes—within a 10-year period and, in the opinion of the United States Attorney bringing the case, has committed those crimes with similar purpose or results can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and/or sentenced to 20 years in prison. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity."

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rico_law

ArfinGreebly
April 27, 2007, 02:49 PM
Yer kidding, rite?

Lessee, that's five bricks of .22 LR.

It's 25 boxes of WWB in any of 9mm, .40 S&W, .38 special.

What the hell?

That's what, maybe two or three trips to the range with the kids?

What's next, making it illegal to walk around with more than ten thousand dollars? (There was a time when that was serious money. Now it's barely a down payment on a decent car.)

Wait, wait! I can think of something even stupider!

Food stockpiling! Fer shur! Clearly, anyone stockpiling food is expecting trouble. Now, since the government is taking care of things, why would you expect trouble, hmmmm? Unless you're planning to start something that is, right?

So stockpiling food is clearly an indicator that you're plotting something socially disruptive, and if you're doing that you must obviously have friends (no one could do this on his own).

Therefore, stockpiling food is clear evidence of conspiracy to commit terrorism.

Q.E.D.

ball3006
April 27, 2007, 02:59 PM
when I saw where 2500 "live" rounds of ammo would fill a uhaul trailer. I need to show this article to my UPS guy who has to lug my ammo orders to my door......chris3

JackShandy
April 27, 2007, 03:14 PM
I cringe when I hear what constitutes a large amount of ammo. When the subject comes up, I compare it to driving-range golf...

You buy the expensive equipment (clubs alone can cost upwards of $1000.00, or so I'm told), you pay to join a club, you sometimes have to set aside time to go there, maybe pay more for tee-time, etc...if you go through all that are you going to hit just one package of balls (say, 12) and call it a day?

No! You're going to hit buckets and buckets of balls; in other words, you want your money's worth! Same thing with shooting; why go to all the trouble/cost just to fire off one box of 50?

Master Blaster
April 27, 2007, 03:19 PM
The weapons cache also included a machine gun, a short barreled shot-gun, two silencers, numerous other firearms, 2500 rounds of ammunition, explosive components, and commercial fireworks. Agents also found more than 120 marijuana plants, Martin said.

Big Calhoun
April 27, 2007, 03:30 PM
Just a couple of KEY points that seem to be missing from the discussion...

Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similiar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

The weapons cache also included a machine gun, a short barreled shot-gun, two silencers, numerous other firearms, 2500 rounds of ammunition, explosive components, and commercial fireworks. Agents also found more than 120 marijuana plants, Martin said.

Sources told FOX News that the six suspects were involved in manufacturing homemade weapons and explosives, and that one of the suspects had tried to sell hand grenades to undercover federal agents. The group has also allegedly been involved in the sales and distribution of other types of explosive devices and weapons, but the nature of these has not yet been revealed.

I can understand how the whole 2500 rounds and 'stockpiling' has feathers in a ruffle, but there IS a bigger picture here which appears to be selectively ignored. I can't see how anyone can offer any defense to this group and/or associate the totality of their activity as a positive for the RKBA. But, that's just me...or not...

Geister
April 27, 2007, 03:31 PM
How is this any different than what the British tried to do in Lexington and Concorde?

whited
April 27, 2007, 03:44 PM
Seems to me if they wouldn't have had the pot trees, it wouldn't be such
a big deal. That's likely what brought the JBTs, but the media of course will
focus on the colossal :rolleyes: stockpile of EVIL GUNS AND WHATNOT.

*note to self: buy another new ammo can tonight and fill it with various items*

*maybe two*

Tommygunn
April 27, 2007, 04:04 PM
How is this any different than what the British tried to do in Lexington and Concorde?

To me this was a pretty local event, and was on the local channels. These guys are "Bubba Wannabes" and they are pretty unsavory characters. I know people here often believe marijuana should be legal. I have no intention of debating the merits of THAT case here; but the fact is it is illegal to cultivate, possess and sell marijuana. That's how these guys were financing their ... arsenal of "democracy."
They were also keeping handgrenades and rifle-propelled grenades. As well, making explosives. Explosives by their nature are unstable and some become more so with age and/or improper storage.
Do you really want your neighbor storing enough to take down the whole neighborhood?
A lot of the guns were probably legal in and of themselves; but made illegal because of their possession by individuals involved in illegal drugs.
So they get hit with drugs & those guns.
They also had one machine gun, apparantly. Anyone think they paid the NFA tax on that? Naaaaaaaa.
If I was the benevolent dictator of the USA, I would shredd the NFA of 34 and a lot of other laws, but I'm not, and what these guys were doing is not the way to change the law.
It's really laughable to call these Rambo wannabes a militia. Did they fight? No. The feds went in at zero dark thirty and -WHACK!- these guys folded up faster than a cheap camera.
Militia? Don't make me laugh.

They are illegal drug sellers. Thugs. Undesirables.

NOT minutemen ....by any POSSIBLE STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION!!!!!

Bartholomew Roberts
April 27, 2007, 04:15 PM
Must be a REALLY small U-haul.

Either that or really BIG rounds ;)

Heck, I have more ammo than that piled next to me on the chairs at the moment because I plan on shooting it all in the next few weeks. However, I doubt the ammo alone had anything to do with the charges. The drugs, explosives, etc. probably played a bigger part.

SamTuckerMTNMAN
April 27, 2007, 04:15 PM
Therefore, stockpiling food is clear evidence of conspiracy to commit terrorism.

Q.E.D.

"hoarding" as it is called, more than so many weeks of food at a time, is illegal in many states. I'll see if I can find more, but it is already on the books. Sorry Arfin :uhoh:

These guys are good targets. Now is a time for feds to move in on easy targets, high profile, easy to distinguish, scary sounding people. Yeah, they had drugs, not cool. They did have some hefty eq in that list, nothing I have for sure.

But what we should watch here is that in the wake of VT agencies are moving in on fringe elements of the preparedness culture. It's certainly possible that this could continue with more paranoia on the part of the sheeple and more aggression on the part of ATF etc., until it begins running right over the real minutemen of this country. With todays media, most would never know the difference.

With the right spin, I could make anyone sound like a ready willing militia madman, especially someone who...well......IS.:D

ST


ps - and I have to wonder to myself, what would we use against a foreign invader with military capabilities, could we make it all after the fact, would there ever be a reason to have something other than small arms? Don't answer please, a rhetorical question only. No threadjacking here. . . .

Titan6
April 27, 2007, 04:22 PM
I noticed this is a dupe thread from L&E but over there they are quoting a CNN article that omits the drugs. I smell a big old anti-rat lauching a few broadsides at the militias wafting over from CNN.

Because if they are not drug dealers they are just kooks....

hammer4nc
April 27, 2007, 05:33 PM
It appears that the primary batfu-in-charge of this operation is one Jim Cavanaugh, of Waco massacre fame. He's been promoted, what a surprise.:o

I'd take any official statement related to the "evilness" of these suspects with a freight train load of salt...these types of statements have an eery ring to them, eh?

Still and all, the majority of folks seem inclined to believe most "official" news releases without question, so it is effective.

pacodelahoya
April 27, 2007, 06:19 PM
POSSIBLE STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION!!!!!

please don't yell.

I suppose it's perfectly ok with you if the sentencing judge has a cigar with his martini after he sends these guys to the big house, right?


Can you see the hippocracy there?

Tommygunn
April 28, 2007, 12:33 AM
Update:
WHNT-19, our local CBS affiliate, provided more on this mystery militia on tonight's 10PM news installment.
It seems this militia was planning on targeting illegal aliens, if the newscaster was accurate.
Now we have illegal Mexicans here in Alabama -- and legal ones, too.
Wonder how they were planning on telling the difference???

jerkyman45
April 28, 2007, 01:03 AM
If food stockpiling is a crime the Mormons better run for it, because out in Utah they typically have food supplies for their entire family for seven years. This is not the best of articles but the raid was a good one, these marijuana growers were no militia, they were a bunch of nuts growing pot and making bombs.

.cheese.
April 28, 2007, 01:04 AM
well, the marijuana is a problem....

I don't know the state laws for the other stuff.... and the details regarding the IED's are iffy...

I find it ironic they mention "fireworks" and "IED" and "Grenades" ..... because I get this image in my head of somebody just making a pin-fuse detonated silver-salute and it being classified as a grenade.... the same for IED's.... and the fireworks thing... huh?

I mean, this could be totally serious... or it could be something dumb (aside from the pot of course).

I'll admit I've made what I guess would now be called an IED. I've made several actually (depending on how you define IED). I love the fourth of the july. Every year I get I suppose what you'd call "commercial grade" fireworks (aerial shell type stuff) and start planning for my annual fireworks show at least a month ahead of time. I've built electronic detonators so I can rig all of them up together and set them off as a show to music (for 4th of July party guests) using the detonator (it's just nichrome wire wrapped around the fuse of the firework, and then two alligator clips attached to the opposing sides with 3v of electricity used to set it off (2 AA batteries).

I once (10 years ago I think) took apart a fountain firework and carefully got the powder out, a roman candle (did the same to it), and filed off the stuff on sparklers, then reinforced a piece of cardboard tube with lots of news paper and tape duct-taped all-around (so worst case scenario, if it blew up, the pressure would be released, but no dangerous fragments.).... I then methodically combined the powder of the sparkler filings with that of the fountain firework, and as I added it into the tube I put the pellets from the roman candle in there in increments. I used a blue powder fuse to go to the bottom, had a stake coming out of the bottom of the whole thing so I could mount it in the ground, and then used the nichrome wire with about 200 feet worth of wire separating me from it (and I was behind a glass door when I set it off). The result was great. It worked exactly as I planned. It was one of the greatest fountain fireworks I've ever seen. Silver sparks shooting out 10' high with glowing balls w/ reports every second (10 times) and ended with a crackling effect. Lasted about 10 or so seconds. Then I let it sit for about 20 minutes before I went to toss it out.

It was dangerous I know - and people get hurt all the time doing stuff like that. I probably won't do it again because it's dangerous, it took a lot of work, and nowadays, I'll bet I'd be labeled a terrorist. I'll bet that fountain would have been classified as an IED.

.cheese.
April 28, 2007, 01:05 AM
oh yeah, as for stockpiling ammo.... what gives?

including .22's, I have about 6k rounds.

collateral
April 28, 2007, 01:42 AM
included a machine gun, a short barreled shot-gun, two silencers, numerous other firearms, 2500 rounds of ammunition, explosive components, and commercial fireworks.

Sounds like these guys were planning for a hell of a party on the 4th!

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!!"

MudPuppy
April 28, 2007, 03:16 AM
The IEDs make it sound like they were hard core Militia types--doesn't everyone realize serious dope growers use booby traps to protect their goods?

JerryM
April 28, 2007, 04:40 PM
They had several items that were illegal by themselves. If they did in fact have rocket launchers, machine guns, illegal short barrel shotguns, and silencers they had things known to be illegal. In addition they had drugs. They get no sympathy from me. A thug is still a thug, even if the liberal news say so.

They deserved to be "busted."
Jerry

cassandrasdaddy
May 2, 2007, 01:15 PM
where is hoarding food illegal?!

and for those defending these folks you might wann see what they are charged with and distance yourself. they are a steroutypical example of what the anti's want us to be seen as

foghornl
May 2, 2007, 01:30 PM
Hmmm
if 2500 rounds would fill a u-haul, then 1 or both of these must be true...\

1. That is a really small U-haul.

2. Those are really BIG rounds. Like the ammo for the 16" guns on Iowa-class battleships, or maybe the 155MM cannon

Sharps-shooter
May 2, 2007, 02:02 PM
maybe they meant to say a u-haul backpack.

Or maybe they meant enough to fill a u-haul trailer full of holes.

cassandrasdaddy
May 4, 2007, 10:43 AM
wanna defend these guys " they don't help the rtkba generally and militias specifically at all. theres a tape out there that will be real interesting. i suspect these guys are toast one or 2 will squeal do small time others bokigb

Phantom Warrior
May 4, 2007, 11:00 AM
Oh good. I get to be the first one to say this.


Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.


Bull****. That is flat out, unadulterated bull****. Art's grandma can plug her ears on this one, because that's what it is. Did they have a bunch of Explosively Formed Projectiles (EFP) that can punch through the side armor of a Bradley? Did they have piles of 155mm artillery rounds? Did they have 100 pounds of explosives buried under the road?

No? Ok, then these are NOT IEDs similar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

-an American GI in Iraq

hammer4nc
May 4, 2007, 11:32 AM
From the original article: "Certinly, they're [militias] always fomenting talk ... they were trying to acquire, stockpile weapons for what they see as maybe some inevitable conflict. This is pretty common in militia groups they sort of gravitate toward all these exotic military weapons," ATF Special Agent in Charge Jim Cavanaugh in Nashville, Tenn., told FOX News on Friday.

But he said it's not common to find the types of improvised rifle grenades found in Thursday's raid. It's a "very unusual seizure," he said.

Those in custody aren't being charged with any plot to use the grenades against anyone, however, but will be charged with weapons possession and stockpiling.

"These are people who operate in sort of a fringe paranoia world, they feel they need all these weapons to exist, they're somewhat fearful," Cavanaugh said.

Comment: Notice the strategy? Fill the media with all manner of pejoritives, "machine gun attack on mexicans", "recon mission", "ied's", "exotic military weapons", etc. Much of this is based on testimony of an unnamed confidential informant (agent provocateur?) When the dust settles, only actual charges are illegal possession.

The critical observer ought to google "Jim Cavanaugh+helicopters" to put these comments in perspective. :neener:

Ohioan
May 7, 2007, 05:14 PM
I just wanted to know if stockpiling was really a crime....

grimjaw
May 7, 2007, 05:30 PM
I think I found the U-Haul trailers they were referring to.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NYLIT-U-HAUL-TRUCK-TOY_W0QQitemZ280112635172QQihZ018QQcategoryZ2655QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130101023755

jm

Mikee Loxxer
May 7, 2007, 07:06 PM
So now every illegal homemade explosive is going to be called and IED :fire: ? And people wonder how frogs get boiled.

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