.410 Slugs

[Imaginos]

I remember when the TV guide that comes in the newspaper used to have ads for a single shot break open .410 similar to an H&R Survivor. It was marketed as a home defense gun for women under the name of "Nightstalker", and it had a flashlight mounted inside the forend that was used as an aiming pointer.

I got to thinking about the old Nightstalker shottie and thinking that a .410 pump shottie loaded with slugs might make a very nasty HD gun for those of petite stature. The slugs would be superior to the 3 OO buck pellets and certainly better than birshot.

I have seen the .410 shells with 3 OO buck pellets, and I have heard that slugs are available for the .410, but I have never seen any in a gun store. Some of what I have heard is the .410 slug is less than adequate for deer sized animals, but I doubt it could be any worse than standard pressure .45 Colt loads. I'd love to see the Box-O-Truth guys do a series on .410s just to see how their test come out.

In any case, I thought I would throw the concept out and get some comments from THR members. What does the membership think of the .410 pump shottie or the Winchester 9410 lever gun loaded with slugs as a HD for the 100lbs woman. (I realize the Winchester can be had in nice calibers like .357, .44Mag., 44-40, and .45 Colt, but I wanted to confine this discussion to the .410 cartridge.)

[zinj]

There is no .410 loading that is adequate for defense. The three-pellet load loses the strength of buckshot (namely many projectiles hitting the target virtually instaneously), and the slugs are actually worse than a .45 Colt (they weigh about half of what a .45 Colt bullet weighs; though they do have a a bit less than double the muzzle velocity, this is tempered by the fact that .410 slugs are notorious for falling apart when they hit a target).

If you are concerned about recoil get a Browning BPS or Winchester 1300 in 20 gauge with a good recoil pad (both of these pumps are fairly heavy for 20s, and thus absorb more recoil). The 20 gauge is worlds ahead of the .410.

[Kindrox]

I was shooting at the range the other day and some dude had a 12 gage with what looked like 1.5" shells. His little kids were shooting them without a recoil problem.

I don't know where he got them, but I would suggest a 20 gage with low recoil ammo.

[zinj]

I was shooting at the range the other day and some dude had a 12 gage with what looked like 1.5" shells. His little kids were shooting them without a recoil problem.

Aguila Mini-shells. That is pretty much plinking ammo. Not only are the ballistics not too hot (still way ahead of a .410), but most repeaters have trouble feeding them. IIRC Aguila themselves said that only the Winchester 1300 would reliably feed them out of the box.

[Avenger29]

most repeaters have trouble feeding them

The Mossberg 500 series won't feed them- the shell elevator is a skeleton that will only hold a full length shell.

[sm]

I have some folks that do use .410 slugs for Serious Situation use.
.410 is similar to a .41 caliber.

These folks are restricted by Doctors orders due to detached retina, shoulder/ back surgery, and other physical limitations.
Some are permanent restrictions, meaning some are physically limited, be it from birth, injury , burns, or other tragic events.

Remington 1100, 870s, O/U and SxS shotguns - even single shot shotguns.

Too many variables in life, and one does what one does with what the have to work with.

I have one lady so badly stricken with Osteo, she is not allowed to drive anymore. The fear of her breaking her back shutting the car door, shutting the trunk - is that much of a serious concern for her.

In her younger days, she was an accomplished competitor shooting trap, and other firearms...
Marlin 60 is the best she can do, doctors orders.
She would much rather be able to move up to something bigger, even a .410, but she cannot.

She took her first deer as daddy's little girl with a .410 single shot, and .410 slug.
"It was just a doe, it was doe season, and daddy said it was just my size and it would make the perfect meals for a little girl like me."

She said she tugged and couldn't move it.
"Dad! Help"

While there are other choices for serious use, I will never talk down someone using a quality firearm [not a known problem gun] in whatever caliber or gauge , for serious use.
Life is Life and it is real. I have been injured and could not use what I normally did.
I have seen, experienced and observed too much to talk down what one is only able to use.

Preacherman. Our own Preacherman, with his real life Combat Experience, Untold hours of training from known and unknown instructors, was restricted to a .22 caliber handgun after both serious surgeries.

Preacherman is a friend of mine as he is of others here.
Mas Ayoob told me face to face, Preacherman has a LOT of real world experience and is an exceptional student, shooter, and teacher.
IIRC Preacherman set a record in some kind of shotgun event, not sure if for the day, or the record still holds...He did so at one of the LFI courses he took under Mas Ayoob.

Best he could do for some time, due to Drs Orders was a .22 handgun.

Do not go there on this gun, caliber, gauge not being able to work for serious use.

[Bezoar]

id like to see where you can get 45 colt loaded down with 1.5 ounce bullets. You can get remington 410 slugs that weigh .75 ounces or better if you handload.
Sure the power isnt as good as a 44 magnum or 357, but if you sat down and played with ammo combinations through loading your own, you could get some mighty nice bullets in that little old plastic sabot.....

[Bud Tugly]

The 2 1/2" .410 shells only hold 3 00 buckshot, but you can get 3" shells that hold 5. Since the 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell only holds 12 pellets, the difference isn't as great as it seems.

The muzzle velocities are pretty much the same, so the .410 loaded this way isn't totally useless for HD. Two shots from the .410 would be nearly the equal of a single blast from a 12. If that was all I could handle, I'd go for it.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM875-3273-321.html

[RKellogg]

We have a guy at our club that hunts and shoots skeet with a 410 . If 71/2 shot with kill a bird and a clay , why would it not work on a person ? :confused:

[Onmilo]

"A .410 shotgun is inadequate for defense" as in compared to what?????

I personally saw the Police photos of what a .410 contender loaded with a 2.5" #6 shot load did to the back of a guys head at about 10 feet and mind you, this is a 10 inch barrel single shot handgun.

Instant kill with a three inch diameter entrance wound and no exit.
A good portion of the mans brain was pulpated.

A .410 Brenneke slug will do about the same a maybe exit too I am a guessing.

The drawbacks to .410 bore guns as defense weapons has more to do with the fact that they are unwieldy, even the spiffy new revolving handguns.
All are outsized for the people the market is pushing them towards, the elderly, small women, people with recoil sensitivities, etc.
There are better choices for defense weapons no doubt but make no illusion to the .410 bore gun as being "Inadequate."

[Dave McCracken]

A 410 slug and the standard 44 mag round have similar MEs. Inside distances being what they are, I'd imagine both would be quite effective.

One war story from NOLA has an elderly couple standing off a home invasion with a 410 pump and skeet loads. Three perps, three center mass hits, situation resolved....

[wdlsguy]

Considering that Federal LE132-000 12 gauge ammunition launches 8 pellets of OOO buckshot, I wouldn't feel too undergunned with Winchester XB413 .410 ammunition launching 5 pellets of OOO buckshot. ;)

[gp911]

There was a story in the news recently where an elderly fellow who was extremely meticulous about his lawn shot a teenager who stepped on the grass one too many times. He used a .410, 2 shots, one in the chest and one in the back as the kid tried to run. The kid is dead, the old man got life, I think. Not sure if he used slugs, buck, or shotshells.

I have shot numerous items with the 3" 5 ball buckshot and it is pretty impressive. A large person in many layers of heavy clothing (a parka over a jean jacket, over bib overalls or flannel, for instance) could survive a chest shot, but if it is summertime it'd be very, very ugly.

My 2 cents...


gp911

[Bud Tugly]

I was a lifelong hunter before my injury, but now I'm a C5 quadraplegic in a wheelchair. I still get out to hunt and target shoot, but with no functioning leg or torso muscles it's impossible to absorb heavy recoil. A 12 gauge or high-powered rifle would probably dislocate my shoulder.

I'm pretty much limited to shooting .22's and .410's, but I don't feel that I'm defenseless at all. I can shoot with reasonable accuracy and great confidence, and those are FAR more important for self defense and hunting than the size of the gun.

[JE223]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Winchester%20%20one%20fifth%20ounce%20rifled%20slug.html

[Bud Tugly]

I don't understand why a lead slug from a .410 would be any more likely to disintegrate than one from a 12 gauge. I would think a little experimenting with handloads should produce a very effective HD round. Maybe a heavier slug at lower velocity would penetrate better without breakup.

Why shouldn't a properly designed 41 caliber round from a shotgun be just as effective as a 40 caliber from a Glock?

[JE223]

Bud,

I asked myself just those same questions after pulling the trigger on the test above! The impact velocity was something like 1800 ft/sec... far above the 1200 ft/sec or so, that pure lead will deform in a big way. Of course, I don't know the composition of the slug, but I don't recall lead bullets firing at those velocities.

[sm]

Bud Tugly,

Welcome to THR.

Your post means a lot to me, thank you so very much for posting.

I have learned a lot from Physically Limited folks I have assisted with, It is I that thanks them for sharing with me.

One never knows the where or when of next encounter CR Sam

I personally am tired of Internet Bravado, Chest Thumping, Arguments, and Boasting.

"Well by golly! I gots me a Ultimate-Extreme Shotguns with 4.5" shells with umpteem bazillion lead pellets...

I hope like hell these folks never go through something that physically limits them, be it temporary or permanent.

That damn ego, pride and boasting is going totally out the window, and no way in hell are they going to use Ultimate-Extreme Shotguns with 4.5" shells with umpteem bazillion lead pellets...


A smart person will listen, pay attention and have contingency plans in the event something does occur.
.22 rim-fire and .410s are two such options and ideas to consider.

[Bud Tugly]

Jeff, I sure don't doubt the test, but I wonder why they load the .410 casing with a tiny 1/5 ounce slug and then drive it at 1800 fps? I'm guessing that a handload with a larger (maybe 1/2 ounce) slug would lower velocity and greatly improve penetration. You could end up with a 41 caliber slug weighing 200 or so grains and a velocity of 1000-1200 fps. I would think that would compare pretty favorably with a 40 caliber handgun round. Seems a fertile ground for experimentation.

SM, thanks for the welcome. I'm paralyzed from an infection that destroyed my spinal chord. Freaky thing - I went from perfect health to paralysis from the armpits down in 9 days before the docs found the cause. Slowed me down but didn't stop me, and I still get out in the woods to shoot as much as possible.

It's the kind of thing that makes you rethink priorities and learn to live within limitations. Bigger and faster aren't always better - sometimes slow and steady wins the race.

[sm]

Scientific Mud/Dirt Test
Going from memory...

Remington Slugs , Stoeger single shot shotgun with fixed full barrel chrono'd around 1200 fps.

Shot into a heavy Card board box [waxed like Butcher get meat in ] filled with Dirt. From 6 steps penetrated over 14"
From 15 yards, still penetrated over 12"

Nice old chunk of lead, looked just the ones taken from felled deer...with that single shot Stoeger...
--
Fed .410 slugs, chrono'd 1200 ...
1100 .410, penetrated vehicle widow glass and still penetrated 8" to 10" depending on angle into Meat. Picnic ham best I recall.

I also got 4 out 5 slugs to go through the door on this vehicle, one slug hit one mechanical parts and deflected.

-

Then again I do recall when I worked in the main OR the .410 damage done to a person we were doing the organ harvest on ...

Use what you want , believe what you will , chunk of lead placed right is the key to this deal.

[Imaginos]

Thanks for the insights gang.

I started the thread thinking about a HD gun for small people and then the thought train derailed into a consideration of the first gun(s) to buy for my daughter. I had been thinking about a Davey Crickett .22 bolt action, but an H&R .22/.410 combo caught my eye the last time I was at the toy store (aka: gun shop).

Since H&R sell barrels in a variety of calibers, she could always upgrade later if she chose, and I have never heard of anyone wearing out an H&R gun. IMHO, the H&R mated with a Ruger Bearcat would make a nice beginner's battery that can grow with her.

[dakotajake]

Someone will have to explain to me this inadequacy thing. First, from the Winchester catalog the 3” 410 slugs are pushing 800ft/lbs, which is equal to a heavy loaded .45LC which I know is a good hunting round. But secondly, the human being is a weak, thin skinned animal. What are you expecting to defend your home from that a 410 slug won’t kill. I’m a fat guy and front to back I measure about 14 inches deep, at the widest point. Lungs are hollow and don’t provide much resistance. People buy very expensive fragmenting ammo for a reason, so why would a slug that falls apart be any different (other than being cheaper). The .38 special 158gr cast lead was THE law enforcement round for ever, every police department, the FBI, military pilots, everybody used them for the better part of a century. It is still one of the most popular self defense rounds, especially with women and newbies because it has low recoil and is dirt cheap. How can a 410 with buckshot or slugs be more ineffective than the .38 or .380 or 9mm 147gr. I’ve heard the same argument about 20 guages. All I have to say is this, if you can hit a deer with the round and anchor it faster with the bullet than you can by hitting it with a half-ton pickup, it should stop a home invader.

[JNewell]

On a different front, I've never gotten the kind of accuracy out of .410 slugs that I get with 12 ga slugs. Doesn't seem to matter what gun or what choke...may be my own bad luck.

[CZguy]

On a different front, I've never gotten the kind of accuracy out of .410 slugs that I get with 12 ga slugs. Doesn't seem to matter what gun or what choke...may be my own bad luck.

Both of my .410s are full choke. I had always assumed that was the reason for poor accuracy with slugs.

[floridaboy]

I've never shot anything with a .410 slug, but I looked at the Brassfetcher picss of a .410 slug in gelatin. It sure seems to me that anyone hit with one of those in anything like a vital area is gonna be DRT. 1800 fps, 5"+ of penetration is ruin their entire day.

[phoglund]

I'm of the opinion a .410 pump dimensioned to a slightly built shooter would work well for home/self defense. At home defense ranges long gun accuracy of any reasonableness will trump inexperienced use of a handgun. I doubt anybody looking down the barrel of a .410 shotgun at close range will be thinking, "Oh, no biggie, 'tis just a .410!" I also doubt anybody with a .410 slug in their chest would want to encourage the placement of another in the vicinity.

I recently purchased a Mossberg 500 in .410 I plan on getting cut down at both ends to make it handier in close quarters and a better fit for my 5'4" wife to wield. She's not much of a gun person but I think I can get her trained up enough to be effective at home defense ranges. At least that's my excuse for buying it!

[Roknrandy]

I am totally disabled also (a form of muscular dystrophy started when I was 29). I use a ruger 10/22 and a saiga .410 with no problems. No recoil to speak of and I take the .410 hunting for deer and the 22lr for squirrel when I go with my brother. Great weapons but you cant plan on taking 200 yard shots to stop something. 10-75 is the range I use them the most.

[jkingrph]

After having kept a large caliber rifle handy for years I rethought my situation. I live in an area where houses are on large lots 1+ acre. My nearest neighbor being at least 75 yards away.

I chose a Marlin lever action .410 loaded with the 2.5" 000 buckshot.

I feel sure it will handle anything that happens during the night, and should I miss will not over penetrate as the 45-70 would.

[carpettbaggerr]

Mossberg makes a .410 pump specifically for home defense.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57413&d=1178072772
Has a laser sight, and they market it to the recoil sensitive.

[toivo]

Mossberg makes a .410 pump specifically for home defense.
[...]
Has a laser sight, and they market it to the recoil sensitive.
You might want to check on that. They had a laser sight when they first came out, but AFAIK the latest ones don't have it.

[CajunBass]

I've seen a couple of deer killed with .410 slugs since I quit hunting a few years ago. My landlords grandkids, both killed their first deer with a single shot .410 shooting slugs. I don't know how many times they shot them, or how far away they were, but those deer were just as dead as any I ever saw shot with a 12 ga.

I would imagine they would work pretty well on other things too.

[berettashotgun]

I've killed 4 deer with .410 slugs, but I was a kid then, and deer have gotten much tougher over the years- they require ULTRA MAGS minimum.
They work, don't even worry about it, if it works on a deer, it'll work on a person.
Those deer were shot @ 40-50 yards seems like. One was in July when I was 8 (turning 9), I almost got beat to death for that. Those were the days. sweet

[CZguy]

I've killed 4 deer with .410 slugs, but I was a kid then, and deer have gotten much tougher over the years- they require ULTRA MAGS minimum.


Yep, me too. :D

[the lone gunman]

I have a bolt action 410 that I use around the house a lot for pests, squirrels, possums, and things that go BUMP in the night. I use #6 shot 3" and I think it would make a great home defense gun, Better if pump or lever action.

I once shot an elephant in my pajamas,, how he got in my pajamas, Ill never Know.

[El Tejon]

Only shotgun murder I've had was a single shot .410 with a slug. Winchester slug entered into the sternum of the victim, broke into 3 pieces and ventilated the heart (piece clipped the aorta), blood everywhere. ME testified that even if shot on operating table the wound was unsurvivable.

However, I did not care if an intruder lives or dies, I want him to stop. Toward that goal, I am more comfortable with something big, for me that means 12 gauge. I would prefer something like a 106 mikemike reckless rifle but I am uncertain how the Hedgewood Neighborhood Association would view this.:D

"Backblast clear?":evil:

[19-3Ben]

Stupid question time. Could someone load .45LC self defense rounds into a .410 shotgun to get better performance at close range?
Yeah i know, it's smoothbore so it won't spin and stabalize for accuracy, but across the room, honestly, how much difference would that make? I'd bet you'd get wicked velocity from a .45LC out of an 18.5 inch BBL. Especially if you handloaded. Now if you could find a rifled slug barrel that would be cool...hrm....

[CZguy]

Stupid question time. Could someone load .45LC self defense rounds into a .410 shotgun to get better performance at close range?


No, the bullet wouldn't get past the choke. The bullet is too big, and could burst the barrel.

[19-3Ben]

What if the barrel has a cylinder choke so there is no constriction at the end of the bbl?

[wdlsguy]

Here is a .410 shotgun that Mossberg ought to sell for home security:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57434&stc=1&d=1178143960

It's a model 50455 with the stock from a model 50359.

[461]

19-3 Ben- There are several .410/.45 Colt guns on the market, most have either a rifled choke on a smooth bore for the .45 or a smooth choke on a rifled bore for the .410. Fun to play with but usually a poor compromise for accuracy on each round. I've got plans to get an H&R set up this way as a companion to our wonderful little H&R .410 that my son and I just love.

[suemarkp]

What if the barrel has a cylinder choke so there is no constriction at the end of the bbl?

My god don't do that. The ".410 bore" should give you a clue. What happens at the end of the chamber when that .452 bullet hits a .410 forcing cone? A 444 Marlin (.429 bullet) would be bad too. From what I've read, you don't go over .400 caliber on .410 slugs and you are limited to .375 if they are surrounded by a shot cup instead of just in front of one.

Only the specialty 410/45 colt guns can shoot 45 colt. They have a .452 barrel that is rifled either at the end or its entirity. This will reduce the pressure in a shot load but also mess up the patterns.

[Shadow Shock]

I have two .410's and I love them for bird and small game hunting, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on them. Sure I know they'll kill someone, but why would I grab that when theres a 20ga ,a 12ga, and a .45 next to it? If you need a shotgun with low recoil for home defence, go with the 20ga