Unpatriotic and defenseless...


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cold dead hands
April 28, 2007, 01:07 AM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

There are sooooo many who respect every amendment but the second. I call them traitors to this country because they can not provide for the common defense of ANYBODY!

My anger has caused me to think about telling bliss ninnies to go to some other country (and another place that exists beyond the grave) where arms are forbidden so that we who cherish our freedom do not have to fight a fight that we shouldn't have to.

It is our right to own guns and it is their right to not have them, but they do not seem to understand that their right does not trump our right.

Or maybe I could be wrong? What do you think about the idea of calling those who would disarm us as traitors to our land? A little Benedict Arnold style punishment for 'em maybe?

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Glockman17366
April 28, 2007, 01:08 AM
No, not at all...

Some folks just can't handle firearms...

One nice thing about Rights...one does not have to exercise them.

However, it is up to those who do love their rights to exercise and PROTECT those rights.

Smellvin
April 28, 2007, 01:09 AM
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

Most people seem to choose the last option.

hso
April 28, 2007, 01:12 AM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

You may want to explain your post to us.

Are you calling American citizens who choose not to own firearms traitors or just the ones who would disarm all of us traitors?

.cheese.
April 28, 2007, 01:12 AM
not really....

I mean... we also have the right to the pursuit of happines, but I don't view the depressed as unpatriotic.

Nor do I view those who try to stay PC with their comments unpatriotic by not exercising their 1st.

Those rights are there. They were fought for, true... they deserve to stay rights forever.... but having the right to something doesn't mean you HAVE to do it.

I have the right and ability to go to the 24 hour McDonalds right now and get a burger, fries, and a coke.... but I'm not going to. There's starving people all over the world... so is my choosing not to go to Micky D's disrespectful to those who are starving?

I don't care if somebody doesn't own a gun.... so long as they don't step on my right to do so. I'd like it if they'd buy a gun, and I try sometimes to convince people that the benefits outweigh the costs (financial, risk of an accident, etc).... but if they don't - they have that right too... and I respect that.

collateral
April 28, 2007, 01:34 AM
I can understand if somebody doesnt want to own a firearm. As we all know, firearm ownership comes with a LOT of responsibilities that cant be shrugged off. Some people cant or dont want to handle those responsibilities.

However, I do believe that those who would see all of us disarmed are spineless traitors and should be stripped of their citizenship and given the big boot across the pond.

Nomad, 2nd
April 28, 2007, 01:34 AM
I don't care what you do.

Just don't try to restrict what I can do!

ReadyAndVigilant
April 28, 2007, 01:35 AM
people have the right to vote, but most don't. doesnt make them traitors for not exercising their rights. look at it this way... when terrorist paramilitary gangs begin cleansing your neighborhood, you can be the one to protect those whiny no-gun people... maybe you'll change their minds. or maybe they'll realize it too late after he emerges from the cloest, after the gangs have robbed his home, shot his dog and violated his wife, maybe then he'd realize - "damn a lot can happen during the time I'm waiting for the police to save my ass."

cold dead hands
April 28, 2007, 01:40 AM
hso... I kind of like to think that those who do not own even a basic rifle for the common defense to be unpatriotic... maybe the word traitor is not appropriate in this case... and cumbersome to the defense of all other rights.

I most certainly call those who wish to disarm us and those who compromise away our rights... well they are absolutely traitors.

As for the common defense part... I will elaborate in that the 2A uses the words "free state" and this does not pertain to a state as in one of the fifty states only. Our free state involves our body and mind as well. The loss of defense is slavery. No more "free state".

Plus there is that pursuit of happiness thing. I am screamingly unhappy that there are those who choose to try to make me a victim of violence with no violent recourse.

All this adds up to being a traitor in my book.

And just to really yank some chains, I also believe that those who can carry and do not...especially when they are with their family...are traitors to the ones they are supposed to protect.

I do not expect to man of the year for my opinions and some will be very offended by them but isn't that what helps to make this country so great? We can disagree without hurting each other.

nwilliams
April 28, 2007, 01:42 AM
I don't think so, at least not owning I don't think makes you unpatriotic.

However saying that owning one is wrong I think does. At least in my book. But like owning a firearm is a right, so is the righ to freedom of speech. Just because someone doesn't like guns, doesn't mean they need to be punished for that. However if someone believes it so strongly that they are willing to impeed on my RKBA then I think that is unpatriotic. The way I see it, if you don't like guns, then don't own one, I won't question your beliefs if you don't question mine.

bogie
April 28, 2007, 01:55 AM
Guys, it's not about "on/off" or "ones and zeroes." There are folks out there who aren't 100% "for" us. Doesn't mean that they're 100% against us...

The worst thing we can do is approach some guy who's just living his life, and start namecalling. Do you know what that equals? Him voting for ANYONE but a "gun person."

A trend I've noticed in _some_ (not all...) "militant" gun people is that competitiveness is directly proportional in strength to the degree the individual skews to the left-most side of the bell curve.

hso
April 28, 2007, 01:56 AM
I kind of like to think that those who do not own even a basic rifle for the common defense to be unpatriotic

You may want to reconsider your opinion. Is this gentleman unpatriotic?

http://www.medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss.htm

Catsailor
April 28, 2007, 01:56 AM
cold dead hands

"I disagree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it." Thomas Jefferson
I know the quote is not exact but the idea remains the same.

Cuda
April 28, 2007, 02:06 AM
"[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole
body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike,
especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from
this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on
every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be
influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see
many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail,
no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it."

-- Federal Farmer (Antifederalist Letter, No.18, 25 January 1778)


Just a thought for the day...

C

cold dead hands
April 28, 2007, 02:40 AM
hso... thanks for the link. I will say that bravery in a war while refusing to kill is quite noble but he was not in the U.S. when this happened. Granted the man is a patriot because he served abroad, but what about while he is back home? Does his refusal to fight mean he is okay with being unable to defend his family, his friends, his animals and prepared to watch them die if that time were to come?

Your country is more than just a piece of land with borders. It is it's cultures, ideals, people and hopefully a shared respect for the human brotherhood. If you will take no steps in it's defense then you may very well be unpatriotic.

I believe that part of loving your country is the will, ability, and tools to defend it and it's people. If a person promises not to help in defense (due to whatever their belief structure contains) then I promise not to defend them. Sounds fair to me.

ArfinGreebly
April 28, 2007, 03:23 AM
While I understand your sentiment, allow me to suggest this:

The rights we have do not directly imply a duty to exercise them.

There may be a moral duty to defend the nation and to be prepared to do so, but it's an unenforceable morality.

We have the right to free speech. It is, perhaps, every man's moral duty to take part in the exercise of that right, but the enforcement of that "duty" immediately becomes oppression.

Freedom is also the right to not do something.

Think not unkindly of those whose education or upbringing have disposed them to not own or use weapons. They may be won over by illumination and enlightenment.

Those who would, on the other hand, negate our rights and freedoms, must be prosecuted with relentless enthusiasm, as they are certainly the agents of our undoing.

Those who choose not to speak, let them go in peace.

Those who choose not to be armed, let them also pass without rancor.

Those who would impede our right to do either, and who refuse reason, let them feel our wrath as we energetically prosecute our cause to their ultimate dismay.

Teach those who can be taught.

They are many.

Bring them an awareness of freedom and restore to them their confidence in their rights.

The closed-minded and benighted construct their own purgatory. Let them enjoy it.

Light the way for those willing to see.

Patriotism can't be dictated. It grows as a result of realizing the value of what the nation is and what it has cost.

And that only happens when you enlighten.

You cannot love what you do not know.

Help them, therefore, to know.

ingram
April 28, 2007, 03:27 AM
Part of being American is having the choice to whether or not you want to own firearms. I don't think not owning in of itself makes someone less American. As soon as they start trying to take ours away, then sure.

Trifler
April 28, 2007, 04:31 AM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

So if someone didn't buy a gun until they were in their 50's, are you saying that they were un-patriotic up until that time they purchased it?

Having a right means you have the option of exercising it at any time, not a requirement to exercise it at all times.

Back in my grade school years we were required to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. At the time I often said that any pledge you're forced to say doesn't really mean anything. If you're not choosing to say it of your own free will then they're just words. I believe the situation is similar in this case.

To put it another way, according to your line of logic, a supporter of Assisted Suicide rights would have to commit suicide and a supporter of Free Speech would have to burn a flag.

kd7nqb
April 28, 2007, 04:41 AM
I CHOOSE to own guns. The cool thing about the 2nd ammendment in America is the CHOICE aspect. Frankly I would say that required gun ownership would be as bad as ownership being banned.

.cheese.
April 28, 2007, 12:37 PM
it's been done though. 2 cities in the US right? or is it just that 1 that everybody knows the name of (but for some reason I can't remember at this moment)?

rlpinca
April 28, 2007, 12:51 PM
Just owning a gun and hollering 2nd amenndment left and right certainly does not make one patriotic and suggesting that those that choose to not own a gun are unpatriotic is ridiculous.

I know plenty of vets who don't own a single gun. Call one of them out in regards to their patriotism and you'll be in a bit of trouble that your gun may not be able to get you out of.


I guess that since you're Mr super patriot that you also are a decorated vet? After all that would be showing alot more love for your country than just some tough talk on the internet.


I have a right to choose to own a gun. Just as importantly, others have the right to choose not to own a gun. Being able to choose is just one of many great things about this country.

Besides, I don't want people owning guns if they do not have an interest in regularly using them in a safe and responsible manner.

GRIZ22
April 28, 2007, 01:47 PM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

I don't think if someone chooses not to own a gun is unpatriotic. People have other rights they don't exercise voting, free speech, give consent searches, etc.

Requiring everyone to own a gun is as bad as banning them.

It's unpatriotic to interpret the Constitution to your liking as many anti-gun people do. The Constitution says what it says. Interpretations are up to the courts.

MrTuffPaws
April 28, 2007, 01:50 PM
The nice thing about America is that you are free to not exercise your rights.

JerryM
April 28, 2007, 04:31 PM
Absolutely not! I know a few veterans who are retired and do not see that they need a gun, and do not hunt or shoot so do not want one. They have shown their patriotism by their actions and sacrifices on the field of battle.

To think that gun ownership is a sign of patriotism indicates a great lack of maturity in one's thinking and judgment of individuals.

Best,
Jerry

Cesiumsponge
April 28, 2007, 07:19 PM
I would probably even commend those that know themselves well enough that they won't purchase a firearm if they aren't responsible enough for it.

Frandy
April 28, 2007, 07:24 PM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

Not me. I'm with JerryM and others of similar sentiment on this one.

Lonestar49
April 28, 2007, 07:24 PM
Quote: Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

There are sooooo many who respect every amendment but the second. I call them traitors to this country because they can not provide for the common defense of ANYBODY!

My anger has caused me to think about telling bliss ninnies to go to some other country (and another place that exists beyond the grave) where arms are forbidden so that we who cherish our freedom do not have to fight a fight that we shouldn't have to.
----------------

You've got to be kidding.. :rolleyes:

Freedom of Choice.. remember ?

The rest was not worth of quoting IMHO.

Was this some kind of 8th or 9th grade Essay Exam?


LS :scrutiny:

wooderson
April 28, 2007, 07:32 PM
I own several guns (though I'm curious as to percentile - are there any studies about where owning 5 firearms or 10 or X puts you?), but I have little time for nationalism (which is what patriotism has become in our grand land).

cold dead hands
April 29, 2007, 05:37 AM
I shall to attempt to clarify my mindset.

If you love where you live and with whom you live, will you defend it or let others kill you and take it or destroy it?

This is no 9th grade essay. This is a very legitimate queston.

I understand that rights include the ability to walk away from and ingnore them, however I do not believe that you get to pick and choose rights that satisfy your inner ninny.

OK, you do not like guns. I get it. You are scared. I get it. But what scares you more... killing or being killed?

If you will not stand up for your fellow man then who will stand up for you?

The Jews learned this the hard way six decades ago. Do we have to repeat this cycle. Please do not give me any blah blah about how it could never happen in America. Go talk to old Japanese folks on the West coast about that.

This is about DEFENDING "THE FREE STATE" of body and mind.

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a wall. Before you sound off, please read all the post that I have made in this thread. I am trying to get a real idea of how Highroaders are thinking.
Agree or disagree... as long as you put it to me in a logical sense.

Kaylee
April 29, 2007, 10:55 AM
A traitor? I don't think so. Unpatriotic? Not necessarily by virtue of that alone, though the two will often go hand in hand.

HOWEVER.. I will agree that any adult (particularly though a husband and father) who is willfully unable to defend their family is irresponsible and without honor.

Honor however seems a largely forgotten trait these days.

-K

wooderson
April 29, 2007, 11:09 AM
This is no 9th grade essay.

It most certainly is not.

thesearcher
April 29, 2007, 11:21 AM
trying to interject what you want in your life onto the lives of other americans seems unamerican to me.

it is unamerican to take away personal rights and the right of personal choice on both sides of the spectrum. don't take my guns but don't make my neighbor have a gun if he chooses not to.

we have too many people in this country that want to make other people's business their business.

JCF
April 29, 2007, 01:18 PM
trying to interject what you want in your life onto the lives of other americans seems unamerican to me.

+1

Very well said.

And in response to the original post... no.

lacoochee
April 29, 2007, 03:47 PM
I agree with Kaylee, it's not unpatriotic but I do find it contemptible.

Funny thing though, a lot of times these are the first people who come looking to me to give them the means to defend themselves just before a hurricane blows in. Even funnier is that after the crisis abates they still don't avail themselves of firearms for defense of their families.

If I were dishonorable and bereft of human decency, I could just consider their homes, water, gas, and food, my emergency supplies...

cold dead hands
April 29, 2007, 03:58 PM
Alrighty then. How about this thought?

This country was founded on the concept of independence...we will this term open to of it's definitions.

I am not saying that the refusal to own a gun does not mean you do not care about your country in that you would wish to go somewhere else, but your independence is insured by firearms ownership. I believe that the unwillingness of people to own even a simple rifle for the common defense means that they are dependent on the government for protection and that is not supposed to be the American way... at least it didn't used to be.

You could argue that if the time comes that you could go to war and the government will give a gun, but who said that the next "war" will be a traditional one that requires us to go to it. People do not unstand that war is more than just country vs. country, it is people killing people for resources, land, food, water, money any any other reason they make up.

If somebody within or outside decides that America needs to be "fixed" then who do we call on to defend us when our military is stretched thinly and the fighting isn't showng signs of letting up.

Let me put it this way. If it was truly required of me to defend this country (because this is where my loved ones are) then I would pack up and ship off to fight, but my loved ones are still here and how do they defend themselves after I have been killed (or not) and the war finally went stateside?

Guns! That's how!

I am trying to convey that the military is not the be all and end all to the common defense. Only the people wil make the last stand. How do you stand with no weapons with which to make a stand?

After readind some of the responses I think I will go bang my head on the wall for an hour or so because it will hurt less than seeing that my fellow countrymen maybe are truly dependent on someone else for protection outside of their home's walls and that they are OK with those that refuse to be armed to protect th independence we cherish.

Remember boys and girls, the 2A was deigned to protect from all preditors, even the ones who are sheep in wolf's clothing and vise versa.

pcosmar
April 29, 2007, 04:16 PM
How about the disenfranchised?
I am disarmed by law, and because I obey the law I have no firearms.
I do not consider myself unarmed or defenseless. As long as my hands are attached to my brain, I have,,,options.

cold dead hands
April 29, 2007, 04:24 PM
pcosmar... your condition is what i would call involuntary servitude to a cruel master who cares not for your well being as far as the law is concerned.

On the flip side of the coin, how do you find the strength to obey laws that would make you a servant when we are supposed to free men?

I do not advocate blatantly breaking the law, but I cannot not condone laws that have no logical reason for existing.

pcosmar
April 29, 2007, 05:09 PM
cold dead hands
On the flip side of the coin, how do you find the strength to obey laws that would make you a servant when we are supposed to free men?

Faith, in God.
Hope, for change.

floridaboy
April 29, 2007, 05:16 PM
On this one, I pretty much don't care what anyone else wants to do. Except for crimes of theft, fraud, or violence, it should be up to others what they decide to do. And as long as I don't commit any of the above, leave me to do as I see fit.

cold dead hands
April 29, 2007, 05:27 PM
pcosmar... I get the faith part.

Hope alone does nothing. You must take action for change to occur.

I know this going to be a little confusing but I will give it shot. The ability to live a passive live is only insured by the tools and the will to be violent when being passive, loving and logical are not enough. Your enemies will not care about your faith, loves, dreams or hopes. They will care that you have the means to take them with you should they decide to shuffle you loose this mortal coil.

Next, owning a gun in face of illegality without using it other than for defense can most certainly be constued as passive resistance with violent recourse to tyranny.

On top of all that, if your were to get an illegal gun and hide it while maintaining a lifestyle that wont have the police kicking your door then you are safe and you have something you can defend your home with that doesn't require you to get close enough to your would be preditors while inflicting maximum damage.

Self defense is not to be made illegal and compromised away. It is your God given right. If you want to bring religion into it, even God defended his throne from those wished to banish and destroy him.

pcosmar
April 29, 2007, 05:49 PM
I understand your point.
I am not a pacifist, and am still working on getting my rights back.
However without Big $$$, there is little chance. Had I the money I could buy my rights. As it is, I hope for a change in the law.
I posted in a home defense thread, that I have an ax. I do, I burn wood through the Michigan winter. I started splitting wood at 8 years old. I can use an ax.
I was also in the Army and learned a little.
I have also been to gladiator school (prison). I am not defenseless.
If the rules change, and TSHTF, I will pick up whatever makes itself available. I still remember what a sight picture looks like.
Till then I will comply with the law.

Gustav
April 29, 2007, 05:50 PM
No not at all.
Quite a few people I know served in the military and never carried a firearm or were around a weapon of any kind.
Some were medics others nurses some worked in the boiler rooms others on engines or other machinery.
They served with patriotism yet many never owned a firearm
Many patriotic non gun owners are around you every day such as doctors, ambulance drivers, guards, EMTs, paramedics, firemen, good lawyers (rare but there are a few) etc.
They simply choose not to own guns, I would not force them to change but I would expect the same courtesy in return regarding my choices.
What I find unpatriotic is those who try to take away my constitutional right to do so especially after so many men and women have fought for and died to give us what we have today.
Owning or not owning a gun does not make one a patriot trying to take away the ability to choose IMO does.:cuss:

googol
April 30, 2007, 12:03 PM
You need to sit down and take a few deep breaths. That vein on your forehead is starting to throb dangerously.

romma
April 30, 2007, 12:18 PM
After years of mis-information propagated in the media left,,, I am surprised there aren't fewer gun owners.

hso
April 30, 2007, 12:34 PM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

Alrighty then. How about this thought?

If the majority of the folks responding disagree with you and you've explained your position again and they still disagree with you, they're not misunderstanding your position. You've made your opinion very clear. It's just that most folks who've responded don't agree with your thinking. This simply puts you in the minority of gun owners/carry permit holders. You asked and now you know.

Yes, those folks who actively work to take away our rights can be considered to be trators.

No, those folks that don't elect to carry a firearm or even own one are not un-American or lacking any love for their country.

Joe Demko
April 30, 2007, 12:39 PM
Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

This is how the Constitution defines treason. You are defining the word somewhat differently. So, no they aren't traitors.

ozwyn
April 30, 2007, 12:50 PM
it is not exercising the right to bear arms that is patriotic or unpatricotic, it is the willingness to defend the right and insure future generations MAY choose to bear arms.

Doesn't matter if you own a firearm, as long as they are not telling others they cannot or should not own a firearm IMO.

Gordon Fink
April 30, 2007, 01:01 PM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

I certainly do not. I was no less a patriotic American before I owned firearms.

In fact, Iíve seen plenty of gun owners right here on the High Road demonstrating what I would consider un-American attitudes.

~G. Fink

Byron Quick
April 30, 2007, 03:59 PM
Joe beat me to posting the definition of treason in the United States. The Constitutional definition.

cold dead hands, I consider ignorance of the Constitution to be unpatriotic, my friend. And you have some self educating to do...as in reading the document-apparently for the first time.

Correia
April 30, 2007, 04:14 PM
After readind some of the responses I think I will go bang my head on the wall for an hour or so because it will hurt less than seeing that my fellow countrymen maybe are truly dependent on someone else for protection outside of their home's walls and that they are OK with those that refuse to be armed to protect th independence we cherish.

Man, I wish I could be as cool as you when I grow up. :)

Look, dude, the people that don't have the mindset to be armed, and don't desire to be armed, are not the people I want to have backing me up anyway.

A gun is just a tool. Your brain is your weapon. I can't just hand a gun to a wuss, and expect them to magically turn into Rambo. Those of us who have the mindset can try to cultivate it in others, but we can never force it.

As for traitorous, that's a word that gets bandied around often. Joe posted the official, constitutional definition of the word. Your definition seems to be: Traitor; Anyone who disagrees with me.

Also, before you see fit to go off and lecture us, maybe you need to step back, take a deep breath, and think real hard about the backgrounds of those you presume to talk down to about our lack of constitutional fervor. Some of the people you're disagreeing with have fought, bled, and killed for our freedoms.

Others who disagree with you have devoted their lives to training others to defend themselves. (personally I'm in the middle of four 15 hour days, spreading the happy World of Gun ownership, and I've got another 38 people to teach CCW to tonight, so maybe I'm just a smidgen cranky at being so darn treasonous and unpatriotic).

Maybe, just maybe, we might have a flippin' clue what the hell we're talking about. Ya think?

sm
April 30, 2007, 04:28 PM
Anybody else here besides me consider the lack of ownership of firearms to be quite un-American and therefore lacking love for your country that provides for the freedom that so many would kill for?

No.

Others have made excellent posts addressing this question and others.

Allow me to share some other perspectives.

1. The abusive male of the household sells all the guns his wife/kids have for dope.
This does not mean the wife, girlfriend, fiance' , elderly folks, or kids that were robbed are not Patriotric.

2. Natural Disasters such as Fire, Hurricane, Flood, or Tornadoes destroys, removes all firearms from a household.
This does not make the household un-Patriotic.

3. Military.
Personal Ownership of firearms are not allowed in many areas.
Submarine, Ships, Barracks, and other areas.

I do not believe our Armed Forces are Un-Patriotic for not having personal firearms in these areas.

cold dead hands
April 30, 2007, 04:36 PM
byron...I have copy in front of me and have it many times.

As for the rest of it...the responses have mostly been in disagreement with me and this fine as I really think quite differently than my fellow man.

I do not advocate forcing anyone to do anything because that is not in the spirit of independence or liberty, and I cherish liberty in a major way.

I am not super patriot, but I am bothered by the fact that people confuse noble lines of work with patriotism.

This country got two big wake up calls in the form of 9/11 and Katrina, yet people seem to have drifted off to sleep again. The so called leaders are not doing their jobs and the people letting them do so with an apathy I didn't think was possible.

I do not care if anyone disagrees with me in terms of calling treason something that isn't defined by the Constitution. Treason to your country is more than acts of war in a traditional sense. Letting the foudations of your country and it's values get eroded away is by definition a traitorous act.

Just to get it out of the way, no, I did not serve in the military because when I was graduating from high school the Gulf War was on and I felt that we had no buisness being there and I refused to enlist and fight in what I considered a bad move on our country's part. Even if had wanted to enlist after the war I couldn't due to a hip injury that will pain me for the rest of my life.

There are those who favor compulsory military service for both genders and I strongly disagree with that.

Anyway, this is all just internet blah blah. For those who wish to not own guns, so be it... I just don't think as highly of them as those who do. Isn't America great? We get to disagree and no one has to die for their opinions and it wasn't the unarmed who made that possible.

Justin
April 30, 2007, 04:44 PM
Sooooo...people who don't carry are committing an act of treason, as defined by you, and not, say, the law of the US as enshrined in the Constitution.

But it's all cool because you don't think they should be prosecuted for committing an act of treason?


In that particular spirit, I would like everyone to know that people who don't like strawberry ice cream are a bunch of America-hating treasonous cretins!

Yeah! Take that!

JerryM
April 30, 2007, 05:02 PM
{Just to get it out of the way, no, I did not serve in the military because when I was graduating from high school the Gulf War was on and I felt that we had no buisness being there and I refused to enlist and fight in what I considered a bad move on our country's part.}

I suspect that if the enemy were on our shores you and some others would have the same attitude, and go to Canada or somewhere that they did not have to fight. Every move that was about war would be "considered a bad move."

I have nothing but contempt for those who think that they are too good or too smart or just too valuable to fight and maybe die.

"A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." excerpt from John Stuart Mill.

Jerry

sm
April 30, 2007, 05:03 PM
I was not in the Military either, they brought the troops home from Vietnam the year I graduated from HS.
My draft card was 1-H.

I did not enter the Military, upon HS graduation. I continued assisting my mom n raising 4 kids, I was the eldest sib.

You see, before my state ever had pieces of paper saying folks could carry a firearm, folks did.
See I owned MY first gun the day I was brought home from the hospital, as my Maternal Grandma put MY pistol she bought for me in my dresser drawer crib when I was brought home from being born.

I used that gun to stop an immediate threat to me, the 3 younger sibs , when riots broke out in 1968. I was 13.

At that moment, the last thing on my mind, was being Patriotic. I was in fear of my life, and 3 siblings.

Later in life, I would have other experiences, and I assure you, I did not was not thinking of being Patriotic when someone shot out the driver's side back door glass while I was in the drivers seat.
I was not thinking about being Patriotic when the fellow pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger.

There is a hell of a lot more to Responsible Firearm Ownership than guns.
There is a hell of a lot more to the COTUS than Patriotism as well.

Now I do not know if you posted out of being sincere, posted as a troll, posted to learn something.

I do know for me, I need nobody to question how I feel, what I do, or what I believe in.

COTUS says I can!

Byron Quick
April 30, 2007, 05:04 PM
Letting the foudations of your country and it's values get eroded away is by definition a traitorous act.

Not in the US where the one legitmate defintion of treason is contained in the Constitution.

Perhaps while reading the copy of the Constitution you purportedly have in front of you, a copy of a Webster's dictionary would be helpful.

Hint: there are good reasons why the Founders so sharply delineated treason in the Constitution. Learning those reasons will be painful though. It will require studying history.

hso
April 30, 2007, 05:09 PM
CDF,

When you ask a group of people that are as commited to the 2nd Ammendement as the folks on THR are if they agree with your opinion and they almost universally disagree with you it's time for sober reflection on those opinions. Not to fit in with "the herd", but to benefit from that experince.

I hope someone can do something for that hip some day soon.

Good luck.

Big Calhoun
April 30, 2007, 05:24 PM
Unpatriotic...no. Defenseless...depends.

My mother absolutely detest firearms. Mind you, she grew up in the deep south with a houseful of them, but she cannot even look at one, literally. She also hasn't missed an election since she's been eligble to vote, works for the state she lives in, and has been thinking about running for Congress. She's a world traveller, but New Jersey is her home and she's a proud American. With 3 professionally trained pitbulls as 'pets', I wouldn't say she's totally defenseless either.

Is the glass half-empty, half-full, or is there just a glass with some water in it?

cold dead hands
May 1, 2007, 12:19 AM
Jerry... If the hordes are at my county's doorstep I am going to fight. To suggest I would be coward and run to another country is low. Had I been of age to fight in WWII I would have. Being against a war is not wrong.

I have the same rights when it comes to opinions and I did not believe in our being in Kuwait. I sorry that you are offended that I feel the same as George Washington in regards to international dealings. Basically he said we need to mind our own buisness unless we are directly threatened.

Byron... justin... dictionary, check, history books, check, opinions no one likes, check.

Webster's defines treason as a betrayal of trust and confidence. I have zero confidence in those who not act as part of our "militia". By that I mean all citizens are supposed to be the militia, not just a few. I am certain that you agree that no confidence is not a punishable act, but a person who commits treason is a traitor.

I did not suggest that all carry guns (though I have no problem with that because the good will eventually destroy the bad) but I question why one would not even own basic rifle for defense in times of war and other emergency.

Patriotism is not enough. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best. This includes owning a firearm.

A bunch of people who come to forum believe an armed society is a polite society. This logic includes the fact if everyone is armed the common defense of all is assured.
If our would be leaders knew that people were armed then maybe they would do better job out of fear that their ruining lives of anyone might be met with equal reprisal or even worse.


I do not care if anyone agrees with me or not. It was suggested that I rexamine my beliefs. I do that all the time and I have come to the conclusion that just because everyone says you are nuts or wrong it doesn't mean that you are.

pax
May 1, 2007, 01:40 AM
I do that all the time and I have come to the conclusion that just because everyone says you are nuts or wrong it doesn't mean that you are.


Nor does it mean you are right.

pax

They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- Carl Sagan

Brian Williams
May 1, 2007, 08:44 AM
This country got two big wake up calls in the form of 9/11 and Katrina, yet people seem to have drifted off to sleep again. The so called leaders are not doing their jobs and the people letting them do so with an apathy I didn't think was possible.


They were not wake up calls, and if they were most folks have already hit the snooze button.

There is a huge difference between treasonous and unpatriotic.

Most of the USA is just plum lazy.

springmom
May 1, 2007, 09:28 AM
The problem here, CDH, is that you're seeing these people in an either/or context, as if gun ownership is an ontological fact. But it isn't. For many years I was not a gun owner. Now I am a gun owner. My patriotism didn't change a whit...but my views on gun ownership did, in large part because of intelligent and reasoned people's explanations/arguments for gun ownership.

When you bandy about labels such as traitor for those who do not own guns, you are assuming that this is an immutable fact of their existence. And had I met up with more people like YOU and less people like the others on this list back when I was thinking about all this for myself, it might have remained so for me.

Rather than looking down your nose at people who don't own guns, why don't you spend some time learning from people like SM and others here who devote much of their lives to empowering people into gun ownership, helping them find the right gun, etc. Nobody's going to want to learn from you as long as you have this supercilious notion that anybody who isn't doing what you're doing is a traitor to their country and their way of life, however.

Springmom

Notch
May 1, 2007, 11:39 AM
"One nice thing about Rights...one does not have to exercise them."


Use 'em or lose 'em..... its your choice.

GEM
May 1, 2007, 11:56 AM
Being 'nuts' is a social construct. There are various different behaviors with various causalities. However, whether they are viewed as 'nuts' depends on the context of your social group.

Blacks who protested apartheid and segregation were called nuts.
Russians who protested communism were called nuts.
Gays were once classified as mentally ill and that was changed by the psychiatric profession.
People with delusions were seen as prophets and not nuts.
If you were an Aztec and skinned people for a suit, you weren't nuts. What about today?

Thus, if most people think you are nuts, then you are. :D

rnchick
May 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
I CHOOSE to own guns. The cool thing about the 2nd ammendment in America is the CHOICE aspect. Frankly I would say that required gun ownership would be as bad as ownership being banned.

I feel the same way. RIGHTS guaranteed by the Constitution are not REQUIREMENTS. There is a difference.

I enjoy and excercise my RIGHT to own and carry a firearm, but for many years I didn't own firearms for various reasons. I'm glad that I have the legal ability to chose.

RPCVYemen
May 1, 2007, 04:48 PM
I do not care if anyone disagrees with me in terms of calling treason something that isn't defined by the Constitution. Treason to your country is more than acts of war in a traditional sense. Letting the foudations of your country and it's values get eroded away is by definition a traitorous act.

Here is what Article III, Section 3 actually says:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.

If you want to expand the notion of treason to include "Letting the foudations of your country and it's values get eroded away is by definition a traitorous act.", what do you do about the only in the Constitution?

It appears to me that the only in that article says that treason consists of one or more of those three acts - and no other!.

Are you reading something something else into that clasue, or are you rejecting the Constitution?


Mike

MrPeter
May 1, 2007, 04:57 PM
I know many people who believe in their right to defend themselves, and believe that it sure would be dandy if the government issued everyone who turns 18 a rifle (like an SKS), etc, etc, and they don't own any firearms, and they don't write their congressperson.

I have an opinion on almost everything under the sun, and I believe that everyone has the right to be heard. Does it make me a traitor that I don't write to every newspaper, or become the spokesperson for every group I support? I think not. It's all about choice for me.

However, Bush's free speech zones, and Brady's anti-RKBA campaign are examples of traitorous acts. Those that stifle other's rights are illegal (they actually are, its not that they should be).

To sum it up:
If someone tells me I dont need a gun, I'll tell them I don't care what they think.
If someone trys take my gun, I'll give it to them one bullet at a time (or sometimes 9-12 at a time if I have buckshot on hand :D )

Lonestar49
May 1, 2007, 08:31 PM
Quote:The problem here, CDH, is that you're seeing these people in an either/or context, as if gun ownership is an ontological fact. But it isn't. For many years I was not a gun owner. Now I am a gun owner. My patriotism didn't change a whit...but my views on gun ownership did, in large part because of intelligent and reasoned people's explanations/arguments for gun ownership.

When you bandy about labels such as traitor for those who do not own guns, you are assuming that this is an immutable fact of their existence. And had I met up with more people like YOU and less people like the others on this list back when I was thinking about all this for myself, it might have remained so for me.

Rather than looking down your nose at people who don't own guns, why don't you spend some time learning from people like SM and others here who devote much of their lives to empowering people into gun ownership, helping them find the right gun, etc. Nobody's going to want to learn from you as long as you have this supercilious notion that anybody who isn't doing what you're doing is a traitor to their country and their way of life, however.

Springmom
------------------
...

SM,

It makes sense to me now SM, as rebuttal after rebuttal have been at, and toward, other men. Now you come along, and say it as-it-is, and low and behold, NO rebuttal..

Very kewl,


LS ;)

PrimaryB
May 1, 2007, 08:33 PM
CDH I'm not going to try to quote all of your opinions but please bear with me.

You implied that the Japanese and Jews would have been better off if they were in possession of guns. Your kidding right? To imply that is ridiculous. It would have been the green light to shoot on sight.

You implied you didn't enlist during the gulf war because you disagreed with it but you said you would have served during WW2. What is the difference between Pearl Harbor and New York City and Kuwait? Shouldn't we also stand up for our allies or international interests? How about currently in Iraq? Your still of age. Oh ya, forgot about the hip. In this case SHOW SOME HUMILITY. Once again their are those who have served our country and do not own a personal firearm by their choice. My only opinion of them is Thank You for Your Service To This Beloved Country.

Quote "There are those who favor compulsory military service for both genders and I strongly disagree with that."

Another remark from an armchair quarterback who's interest is labeling others as traitors because they simply are exercising their right to CHOOSE NOT TO OWN. A right given to us by their sacrifice and those before them.

Once again show some humility. One thing I can promise is that will come with age. Just my opinion.

Stevie-Ray
May 1, 2007, 09:01 PM
I don't think non-gun owners are all bad. Especially like a buddy of mine or Rush Limbaugh. They both believe wholeheartedly in the RKBA, but neither own guns. Those that do not own guns and are trying to take away my gun-owning rights ARE traitors, though. Worst of all are the elitists that say, "I can own a gun and carry it for my personal defense, but the common people cant!" These pieces of human refuse should be dealt with the most severely, IMO.

JerryM
May 2, 2007, 12:23 AM
PrimaryB,

Part of the problem is the "Bull Moose" syndrome.
I recall many years ago in a comic strip, maybe Lil Abner, there was a character named Bull Moose. He was rich, white haired, drove a looooog convertible, with pretty girls in it, and would say, "What's good for Bull Moose is good for everybody. (That may have been a play on the General Motors ad.)

Now if I carry, those who don't are unpatriotic. If I protest the war, those who do not are blind, and do not understand the Constitution.

We can always think or say that we would have done such and such in another time and another place, but this is not the right time or the right place so we cannot do it.
Or, "I would have fought when my country called a couple of generations ago, but now I won't because the cause is not just, no matter what my country needs. I am a great patriot who does not follow the leaders because they have bad motives, and I won't fight for their objectives. I show my patrotism by protesting."

What we have in reality is a fair number of relatively young people who are not yet dry behing their ears, and have never had to make a sacrifice to keep our nation free. In fact many are not willing to make a sacrifice whatever the cause, but just give lip service to their patriotism and courage.

I often think of the Hollywood crowd, who live in a fantasy world, and have never had to face the real world. Yet, because they have fans, they think they know about how the nation and the world should function. Most of their ideas are nonsense, but the liberals listen anyway.

Oh well, what is new?

Regards,
Jerry

Mauserguy
May 2, 2007, 12:44 AM
I believe that if people are unprepared for basic emergencies, they are making themselves a drag on society. This includes having basic disaster supplies as well as a firearm for self, and family, defense. This is not un-American, it is just un-neighborly.

It is not society's responsibility to protect you. If you choose to be unarmed, you choose to be a burden to others.
Mauserguy

jeepmor
May 2, 2007, 01:49 AM
Don't push your values on me, I won't push mine on you.

People have the right to choose, nuff said.

jeepmor

ArfinGreebly
May 2, 2007, 03:08 AM
At the risk of repeating myself . . .

. . . allow me to repeat myself (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3343358#post3343358).

Heck, I feel left out.

No one even wants to argue with me.

Pooh.

Plink
May 2, 2007, 03:26 AM
I totally respect those who choose not to own guns. I don't respect those why try to tell me that I can't own them though. I have several pro gun friends who don't own one. They support our right, but they just don't share our interest or feel the need to own one. To each their own, as long as they respect the rights of others.

chemist308
May 2, 2007, 03:55 AM
It is sad that we have a large and growing number in America who do not respect all 10 in the Bill of Rights. Just as bad, I'm hearing a lot of folks throwing half the Bill of Rights out the window. How did we get here? What happened that's slowly turning the US back into England?

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