Where is all of the .223


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glockman19
April 28, 2007, 10:12 PM
I'm in the market for 1,000 rounds of .223. Would like Federal NATO stamped 55 grain ammo and can't find any. Midway-OUT, Natchez, OUT, Ammoman, OUT. I can't even fins any Remington UMC.

A good reason to get into reloading. I've been saving my .45 & 308 brass this may make me save .223 too.

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Jackal
April 28, 2007, 10:28 PM
Easy answer, it's in Iraq.

coinshooter
April 28, 2007, 10:37 PM
I only found 11 boxes of remington 55gr at walmart for 6.64 a box Thrusday thats all they had

kcmarine
April 28, 2007, 10:38 PM
You might want to look at Cabela's. I don't know the prices, but it is once- fired reloaded bulk ammo. And it's available. Hope that helps.

Mike U.
April 28, 2007, 10:51 PM
Where is all the .223? Three words for ya:

Iraq and Afghanistan

nwilliams
April 28, 2007, 11:50 PM
Just another reason to bring our troops home and make sure that they bring the ammo supplies with them. Although as long as theyre over there they need all the ammo they can get, so I'm more than willing to give up my share, until the war is over.

IMtheNRA
April 29, 2007, 12:31 AM
How much ammo is the military using there? There are major manufacturers here and abroad. We used to get great deals on quality imported ammo such as IMI and others. Now we're down to Russian steel-cased 5.56

Could the US military require THAT much ammo? :what:

repo
April 29, 2007, 12:35 AM
I recall reading that over 250,000 rounds are fired for every insurgant that is killed over there.

ugaarguy
April 29, 2007, 12:46 AM
Could the US military require THAT much ammo?
Well standard troop load out is six mags in web gear plus one in the rifle, or 210 rounds. Then you have to factor in all the ammo needed for resupply of those troops, and minimum reserves on bases/camps. Next add in the folks carrying an M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) with its box holding a large belt on the gun, plus a few spare belts. You'll need to add in SAWs mounted on vehicles too, with their larger boxes and more spare belts. Factor in the resupply and reserve ammo for all those SAWs. Factor in ammo used for qualification firing before deployment, and remember that even USAF support personnel are required to qualify before deployment. Factor in all the brass & primers used to make the blanks fired in mandatory pre-deployment exercises as well. It really adds up.

DMK
April 29, 2007, 12:55 AM
make sure that they bring the ammo supplies with them.Don't count on that happening.

cbsbyte
April 29, 2007, 01:28 AM
The lack of .223 has nothing to do with the military or the war effort. First the military does not use commercial .223, they use 5.56 which is similar but uses a thicker case than commercial brass. Second the military has its own standard type of 62 and 77 grain rounds, and does not use 55 grain bullets. Third, and most importantly the military has its own ammo factory, and international military suppliers to depend on during conflicts. The military is not draining the supply of .223. My guess is that the lack of ammo has more to do with demand than supply.

glockman19
April 29, 2007, 01:35 AM
cbsbyte, the ammo I like and am looking for is lake city 5.56

ugaarguy
April 29, 2007, 01:51 AM
The lack of .223 has nothing to do with the military or the war effort. First the military does not use commercial .223, they use 5.56 which is similar but uses a thicker case than commercial brass. Second the military has its own standard type of 62 and 77 grain rounds, and does not use 55 grain bullets. Third, and most importantly the military has its own ammo factory, and international military suppliers to depend on during conflicts. The military is not draining the supply of .223. My guess is that the lack of ammo has more to do with demand than supply.
Except that ATK manages both the Lake City and Radford Army Ammunition Plants. ATK is a mega corp. which owns Federal, Fusion, Blazer, CCI, and Speer ammo; Speer bullets; and Alliant powders. That's a ton of normally civilian ammo & components makers whose production capability can be directed to meet US Forces needs. I stand by my correlation.

http://www.atk.com/Customer_Solutions_AmmunitionSystems/cs_as_default.asp

ArchAngelCD
April 29, 2007, 02:45 AM
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/223.html $5.90 a box of 20
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM218-47826-68.html Wolf 55 gr @ $4.72 a box
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20726-cat20839_TGP&rid=&indexId=cat20839&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=2&parentType=index&parentId=cat20839&id=0022901 Cabela's has a lot.

TroubledOne
April 29, 2007, 03:20 AM
cbsbyte The lack of .223 has nothing to do with the military or the war effort. First the military does not use commercial .223, they use 5.56 which is similar but uses a thicker case than commercial brass. Second the military has its own standard type of 62 and 77 grain rounds, and does not use 55 grain bullets. Third, and most importantly the military has its own ammo factory, and international military suppliers to depend on during conflicts. The military is not draining the supply of .223. My guess is that the lack of ammo has more to do with demand than supply.

On your third point; I beg to differ, Federal Cartridge makes Military 5.56 rounds, But I guess working there doesn't amount to much. Federal can't make enough of it, even working 24/7.

goon
April 29, 2007, 12:14 PM
I have bought ammo in Federal boxes that had LC nato headstamps. So at the very least, you are tallking about brass that is being drawn away from civilian production. Primers and powder too. And IIRC, there are still some NG units using old A1's that require 55 grain ammo.

TimboKhan
April 29, 2007, 12:25 PM
My guess is that the lack of ammo has more to do with demand than supply

I think the military demand has something to do with it as well, but I also happen to think your right about civilian demand. AR-15 sales seem to be at an all-time high right now, and it makes sense that people want to shoot their EBR's!

distra
April 29, 2007, 06:37 PM
No shortage here, I just load up what I want. :D .223 once fired brass is readily available from various sources as are bullets. I have about 3k cases and 4k bullets. Reloading is the way to go especially if you shoot a lot.

Lone_Gunman
April 29, 2007, 06:48 PM
I don't understand why the military would still be needing 223 ammo at this time.

They have been buying the whole time we have been in Iraq, which is like 4 years now, and I don't see where they have been involved in any protracted battles that would have used up a lot of ammo over there? What are they doing with all that ammo?

cbsbyte
April 29, 2007, 07:02 PM
cbsbyte, the ammo I like and am looking for is lake city 5.56

Well I have seen plenty of Federal 55grain 5.56 in the New England area. LC might be harder to find but should not be impossible.

I still don't believe that the military is causing a shortage of .223 ammo since they don't use it, and their are plenty of manufactures of the .223 that don't supply the military with ammo. Also Military 5.56 uses different components than civilian .223. In addition, the military hoards ammo for war, and if more is needed, which I highly doubt they just make more of it at their plants or buy from international Manufactures such as IMI. It most likely civilian, and maybe LEO demand is out reaching the current supply.

Remember civilian .223 is not the same as 5.56 NATO. They use different cases, primers, and bullets.

kennyboy
April 29, 2007, 07:10 PM
The military has it. All the rest of it is in limited amounts at stores and being fired from the thousands of AR-15s owned by the American population.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 29, 2007, 08:00 PM
I don't see where they have been involved in any protracted battles that would have used up a lot of ammo over there? What are they doing with all that ammo?

The vast majority of ammo is used in training troops for combat, not actual combat. If you think about it a 3-day training class for civilians or law enforcement can easily have a round count of 2,000. Now imagine how much ammo you need to run a platoon through a MOUT package.

For the special operations guys, ammo is a major consumption item. A SEAL team on workup for a six-month deployment might fire 20,000 rounds per man. These men need training to stay sharp.

I still don't believe that the military is causing a shortage of .223 ammo since they don't use it

No; but a factory that is making one million rounds of 5.56 can't make one million rounds of .223 for the civilian market. Part of the contract for ATK allows them to use the military plant to produce ammo for commercial sales if there is no military need.

In addition, the military hoards ammo for war, and if more is needed, which I highly doubt they just make more of it at their plants or buy from international Manufactures such as IMI.

You have to replenish the ammunition in your hoard or it doesn't help you much if a larger war breaks out. Do you think the military just hopes nothing else happens? As for buying from other manufacturers, they absolutely do that. Don't you remember the outcry over the military buying ammo from Israel for the war? The military had to promise this would only be used in training. You have to remember, the military has a single ammo plant. This is compared to 17-18 plants during WWII. The military relies heavily on the civilian market for surge capacity. You can google several DoD reports on that exact issue if you like.

Fulcrum of Evil
April 29, 2007, 09:05 PM
I recall reading that over 250,000 rounds are fired for every insurgant that is killed over there.

From what I recall, that's down 75% from Vietnam.

Glockfan.45
April 29, 2007, 09:27 PM
there are still some NG units using old A1's that require 55 grain ammo.

Yes but their demand has not increased. No unit to my knowledege is deploying with A1s. Air Force security may be using a few but that would be it. All the A1s are pretty much living on racks back at their armories. Winchester, and Federal make ammo for Uncle Sam. Those two civilian manufactures shifting their focus to military contracts would put strain on the few remaining civilian manfacturers. If your really want to point the finger at somebody go scream at the ****heads over on ARF that hoard more ammo than they will ever shoot over their lifetimes. I am not kiding you some of those guys have over 5k rounds......loaded in mags, and another 20k loose. They are also the reason you can't find a stripped AR lower. I swear the "chicken littles" running around screaming "the ban is comming, the ban is comming" are really starting to tick me off :fire: .

10-Ring
April 29, 2007, 10:02 PM
I just keep wonderng -- even after a few years, why can't manufacturers ramp up ammo supply to catch up w/ demand??? Easy...$$$$ ;) Notice how demand is up, supply is down & prices are up???

Nomad, 2nd
April 29, 2007, 10:16 PM
Glockfan.45:

I have over 25,000 of ammo... I SWEAR to you, unless I die before my age would indicate...

I'll shoot it all.

Why should you have a problem about how I spend my $?

220_Swift
April 29, 2007, 10:18 PM
Easy...$$$$ Notice how demand is up, supply is down & prices are up???


I also noticed that the price of copper and brass are up, which will have a very real impact in the price of the final product. A good example is 9mm Luger. Last year, the UMC 250 round box was $29.99. Now, the same box is priced at $45.99. Their is plenty of it their, it just costs 50% more now.

Green Lantern
April 29, 2007, 10:25 PM
Is the Cabela's ammo decent quality? I sure don't plan on using Wolf...

While we're on the subject - just what is 'the best' type of bullet for self-defense in .223? Soft point, hollow point, other?

351 WINCHESTER
April 29, 2007, 11:08 PM
You hit the nail on the head - supply and demand. There will be periods when ammo is in good supply and it will cost a pretty penny. Wait and see.
Look at gas prices and the oil company's profits. Follow the money.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 30, 2007, 10:34 PM
I just keep wonderng -- even after a few years, why can't manufacturers ramp up ammo supply to catch up w/ demand?

Because building a new plant to manufacture ammunition (or greatly expanding an existing one) is a large sunk cost and when the war is over demand will sink dramatically (along with prices). Unless you think you can recover all of your costs before that happens or that the plant will continue to be profitable with much lower prices, then it doesn't make much sense to build a new plant in response to a temporary surge in demand.

Lone_Gunman
April 30, 2007, 11:23 PM
So basically we have to wait until we have a Democratic president for ammo prices to go down. Its a little ironic.

Mike U.
May 1, 2007, 08:05 PM
Get a demoncratic president in the White House and we won't have to worry about the ammo supply because there will be none. They can't take your guns legally but what's to keep them from taking away the ammo?
I recently overheard some liberal soccer-mom types in the B&N coffee shop talking about ways to do just that. Kind of a backdoor method of gun control, but, an effective method nonetheless.
This is exactly the reason why we cannot let the dems get the WH. If we let it happen, the next four years after 2008 will be a running battle of pro-gun vs. anti's and they will have the upper hand. If they get hold of both houses AND the WH, it may get ugly here in the US of A.

I'm not saying this WILL happen, it's just a bigger possibility if the dems get their way. It's readily apparant that right now they are remembering the lesson from the mid-nineties when they lost control after enacting that AWB.
However, if they get control of both houses and the WH again, they might be emboldened to try it again and we don't need that! :banghead:

Lone_Gunman
May 1, 2007, 08:20 PM
They can't take your guns legally but what's to keep them from taking away the ammo?


A few things.

First, the President does not have the power to ban ammo.

Second, ammo is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

Third, how quickly do you think the Congress would get voted out if they banned ammo?

Nomad, 2nd
May 1, 2007, 08:23 PM
Lonegunman: Seen alota Norinco ammo around lately?

Lone_Gunman
May 1, 2007, 08:47 PM
No, but that never accounted for more than a small share of the market. The president cannot ban domestically produced ammo.

We'd be better off if more chinese products were banned, but that is a topic for another discussion.

Browning
May 1, 2007, 08:57 PM
Try Gulf Coast Ammo, they've got some Wolf available.

www.gulfcoastammunition.com

Last ad I got sent it was $85 for 500 rounds and $160 for 1,000 rounds.

Either that or try Cheaper Than Dirt.

www.cheaperthandirt.com

They've got a bunch of different brands available.

Mike U.
May 1, 2007, 08:59 PM
First, the President does not have the power to ban ammo.

Second, ammo is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

Third, how quickly do you think the Congress would get voted out if they banned ammo?


If they get hold of both houses and the presidency, what is standing in their way to institute their belief system on all of us?

Now, granted, they got voted out after they enacted the AWB and there is a likelihood that'll happen again, but, look at how long we had to have that stone around our necks after they lost the majority.

cheygriz
May 1, 2007, 09:00 PM
The war in Iraq has nothing to do with ammo prices and availability. Check out the commodities market folks. Steel, tin, copper, lead, zinc are all out of sight due to demand from China and India.

possum
May 1, 2007, 09:04 PM
Well standard troop load out is six mags in web gear plus one in the rifle, or 210 rounds
and my squad carries twice that per man! and there are many more out there that does the same. getting caught with your pants down isn't something you want to happen and no one ever wants it to happen to them twice, so we are sure we plan for the worst!

Mike U.
May 1, 2007, 09:10 PM
The war in Iraq has nothing to do with ammo prices and availability. Check out the commodities market folks. Steel, tin, copper, lead, zinc are all out of sight due to demand from China and India.

That is a very valid point. Copper prices are going so high right now we have a gang here stealing copper wire from local businesses. Who'da thunk that would ever have happened?

SpeedAKL
May 1, 2007, 11:38 PM
I'd lean towards the war. The commodities market wouldn't create a shortage so much as drive up prices (which it has - for all ammunition).

glockman19
May 1, 2007, 11:44 PM
natchezss just got in Federal NATO .223 for $6.99 a box. I got 20. Teh bulk isn't in yet but it's $169 for 1,000. should be in, in the next 2 weeks 5/15.

Caimlas
May 2, 2007, 12:53 AM
First, the President does not have the power to ban ammo.


With control of the House and Senate, why would that make any difference? And since when has a Presidential decree not been considered binding by the governmental forces?

Second, ammo is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

I believe the 2nd only refers to "arms", not the ammunition it shoots. The gun grabbers interpret the 2nd to refer to "sporting arms", for the National Guard only (that's what the militia is, according to them), and various other perversities. This little fact could easily be manipulated to ban ammunition on the civilian market. Chances are they'd go for military caliber stuff first (.223, .308, then .30-06, slugs, 00 buck, etc.), then work on tight restrictions on "hunting caliber" stuff. Hunting would, of course, become illegal overnight in many states due to existing hunting restrictions (shotguns only, etc.), allowing for "reasonable" confiscation of said firearms.

Third, how quickly do you think the Congress would get voted out if they banned ammo?

That'd be an ideal time to declare martial law, suspending elections, wouldn't you think? Right before an election which would oust their party from power, and about 2 years or so after ammo has been banned, allowing much of the existing civilian supply to be expended - how convenient! Of course, the fact that ammo has been banned would likely provoke warfare and strong opposition to the government prior to the election, providing them with the excuse needed for martial law declaration.

Besides, they wouldn't even really need to ban ammo. That's one way to go about it, but they could also increase the government contracts for ammo while allowing/requiring ATK to produce military ammo at all their facilities. Bam, large apolitical, transnational corporation stops producing civilian ammo for the preference of the military contract, all that ammo gets warehoused or sold/given to "needy fledging countries" or what have you, and the US now has no ammo supply aside from what the small-time producers can make. This, in conjunction with banning Wolf/imported ammo (which is likely to happen sooner than later anyway, given Russia's current political stance against the USA.

Just because it's seemingly won't happen, does not mean that the will and the means to make it happen are not there.

Stachie
May 2, 2007, 01:19 AM
After I build my AR, I plan on reloading.

swingset
May 2, 2007, 03:07 AM
After I build my AR, I plan on reloading.

Better plan on more disappointment then. Components are getting as scarce, and expensive.

When everyone rushes to reloading, what do you think happens to the supply of reloading components? They go down too, and prices up.

BobTheTomato
May 2, 2007, 06:54 AM
Before the ban most ammo plants were probally at 80 to 90 % capacity. Then 2 things happened Iraq/Afganistan and the Dems taking over congress. So first the military needed more so anyone who loaded for the military focused more resources on their orders. Second, people are running around like mad saying "I need to buy all the ammo I can before Hillary-o-tron takes over and bans everything." So when ever .223 or 5.56 pops up they buy 100 cases. This same thing happend with 7.62x39. Everyone panic bought and you could never find it. Now you can find it again.

So in summation: Pre-Iraq war levels of production did not have much room for growth meaning increased use by army lowers supply to civ market. Fear of Hillary-o-tron mean panic buy. Panic buy means hard to find ammo.

Thin Black Line
May 2, 2007, 08:12 AM
The war in Iraq has nothing to do with ammo prices and availability. Check out the commodities market folks. Steel, tin, copper, lead, zinc are all out of sight due to demand from China and India.

Not only that, but look at inflation and the currency exchange rates. No one
wants dollars overseas. This means it takes more dollars to buy the same
amount of stuff. The average American has no idea how or why this happens.

I was buying plenty of surplus LC ammo just a year ago that would have been
considered cheap now. Those brass cases will come in handy for reloading.

My cr@ppy 1999 ADCOM 5.56 that was blowing primers is now more than worth
its weight in 62g steel cores and powder alone. From crisis comes opportunity.....

BillD
May 2, 2007, 08:57 AM
"natchezss just got in Federal NATO .223 for $6.99 a box. I got 20. Teh bulk isn't in yet but it's $169 for 1,000. should be in, in the next 2 weeks 5/15."

Do you have info that it is going to go for that price? With the drought on the market right now, I would say it would be upwards of $250 for a thousand.

DogBonz
May 2, 2007, 09:25 AM
Iraq

Willard
May 2, 2007, 09:31 AM
The production lines are for ammo-they'll use the same machines for .223, then .22-250. They just switch some parts, recalibrate, and run the ammo. So the switch from making .223 to 5.56 NATO is pretty easy. they may not use identical cases, but the cases are made on the same lines, bullets too.

After Beelzabubba Klinton shut down all but one Army Ammunition Plant the private sector had to take up the slack.....and the Army has ben using Israeli ammo for quite a while. I qualified with TZZ headstamped .45 ammo in 1990.

glockman19
May 5, 2007, 01:26 PM
well, based on an article in today's paper the Bush administration has asked congres for approval to sell 400 million rounds of .223 to IRAQ.

My question answered.

Alex45ACP
May 5, 2007, 01:45 PM
Just another reason to end these ridiculous wars.

Kurt
May 5, 2007, 01:56 PM
I always liked to use the term "win" whenever these ridiculous wars are mentioned.

;)

Rembrandt
May 5, 2007, 02:53 PM
I'm embarrassed to say what I paid for it......but I just bought 1250 rounds of 223 loaded with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips, and another 1000 rounds of Lake City. Prairie Dogs....here I come!

BrianB
May 5, 2007, 03:04 PM
...and the Katrina rebuild...electric, plumbing, phone lines...

kcmarine
May 5, 2007, 04:05 PM
Well, in non- related- but- certainly- not- coincedental- news, Lake City parent company Alliant Technisystems made a 25 million dollar profit increase over last year in the last quarter. No joke.

We need more ammo plants.

Rembrandt
May 5, 2007, 04:18 PM
.....We need more ammo plants.

Could always start up "THR Ammo".....everyone chip in and we'll buy fifty Dillion presses and hire the homeless to run them. Email your order (w/load & bullet preferences) and waaalaaa....an instant supply of affordable ammo! It's a win-win for the homeless and shooters.

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