Hunting with a rifle is unfair!


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H&Hhunter
April 29, 2007, 06:51 PM
On some of the posts I've read by our various anti hunting gun owners here (on some of the other pages) there seems to be a common misunderstanding about hunting.

These guys seem to think that to be an efficient hunter all one has to do is step out into the woods and blow away a poor defenseless little doe eyed critter.

They think that it is the rifle that makes the hunter and that said use of the rifle is unsporting.

They are implicitly ignorant of the time and skill and knowledge that go into making somebody into a half way decent hunter.

I'll mention just a few but obviously a large book could be written on this extremely involved subject.

1. Physical stamina to meet the conditions and the trophy expectations of the hunt.

2. Intimate knowledge of the terrain and the area in which you are hunting.

3. Excellent outdoors skills in both survival and general knowledge ranging from jungle to dessert to high alpine. Including local knowledge of weather patterns. Shelter making, ability to make fire at all times first aid and signaling.

4. Intimate knowledge of the game species you hunting and a an intimate knowledge of other species in the area.

5. Intimate knowledge of all applicable rules in regards to game laws, land usage, and local firearms laws.

6. The ability to arrange the time away from your real life to go and do this stuff.

7. Having the financial resources to get away and hunt whether it be a pure meat hunt or an exotic hunt of a lifetime it all takes time and money.

8. Mental fortitude and patients. Not everybody can get up 2 to 3 hours before sunup day after day in sub zero weather and hike their carcass into the high mountains and stay there all day into the night for the off chance of at least seeing a critter. It is real easy to call yourself a hunter when there is lots of game out and you are occupied all the time. It is something else top go days on end without seeing what you are looking for and staying interested.

Not to mention the ability to do so in often horrendous weather extremes only to return to the most barren of living conditions at night.

9. To be self sustained hunter one must have the ability and knowledge to transport ones self into and around the hunting area whether that be on a horse, a 4WD, an ATV a boat an airplane or on foot. Then you must be able to support and maintain your chosen mode of transport year round.

10. Animal species recognition and trophy judging ability. I am not taking unnecessarily the ability to judge a record book head in the field but rather the ability to rapidly and with utmost certainty judge that head to either a legal one or a not, is it a mule deer or a whitetail, is it a cow moose or an elk, is it a big color phase black bear or an immature grizzly, is it a lesser or a greater Canada goose so on and so forth.

11. Once the animal is down you must know how to quickly and efficiently prepare the animal for transport/storage/meat preparation then you must have the knowledge and physical stamina to do the transporting.

12. An intimate knowledge of your chosen weapon and all matter in which it operates along with basic repair and service knowledge.

13. Have the highest degree of moral character as what we do when we are not being watched is the highest definition of personal character.

14. It also helps to have a weapon you are familiar with and are a half way decent shot with.

Saying that all it takes to hunt is to go out and shoot something is a lot like saying all it takes to be a golf pro is the ability it smack a little white ball with a funny shaped stick.

All it takes to climb Mt Everest is the ability to walk.

When you hear somebody make the all to familiar statement about how easy it is to hunt you know that you are listening to pure ignorance no two ways about it.

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sm
April 29, 2007, 07:23 PM
Excellent Post!

Larry Ashcraft
April 29, 2007, 08:13 PM
Excellent H&H!

To show how easy it is, I hunted elk for about thirty years, and I had the best mentor (my dad, who killed about 35 elk in his career). Hunted hard too. I blew a couple shots over that time, and let a few go because "something" wasn't right. Climbed umpteen thousands of feet of Rocky Mountains, in all kinds of conditions, from dark, snowy, hot, raining, you name it.

My total kill? One elk!

Yep, this hunting stuff is easy, next time I'll take a spear.

eliphalet
April 29, 2007, 08:26 PM
Excellent post, sounds like you have been there. I don;t think one can understand without that hands on knowledge. I wish for more threads with responses containing good communication from hunters, guys that have been there, and not the armchair quarterbacking, read a magazine once, seem to know it all, we get so much of.

nickE10mm
April 29, 2007, 08:48 PM
Awesome! Thanks for posting.

koja48
April 29, 2007, 10:22 PM
Yepper, I'm typically besieged & overrun by whatever species of game I've been pursuing . . . no challenge whatsoever. Some folks have spent way too much time at the meat counter in the market & unfortunately have no clue. Great post!

BIGR
April 29, 2007, 11:31 PM
Great post. I have often told my hunting buddies that true hunting is at times more work and harder than our regular everyday job. Get up real early get outside where its fridgid cold and (if you are lucky) after the harvest of the animal the real work begins dragging it out.

351 WINCHESTER
April 29, 2007, 11:57 PM
They must watch the hunting shows on cable. Yea, they make it look real easy. Try hunting on public land with all kinds of "hunters". It's very difficult to say the least.

ReadyontheRight
April 30, 2007, 12:30 AM
Excellent post. Thanks!

I suppose there might be a few guys in the history of the world who have hired a guide to bring them to a good spot, shot an animal and then had the guide deal with the cleaning, hauling, butchering...but A) This isn't what most of the hunting population considers "hunting" and B) I really could not care less if someone takes this approach to hunting...as long as it's safe and moral.

These busy bodies need a hobby.

Two more suggested skills:

-The mental ability to understand that hunting is about a lot more than shooting, it's about maintaining an understanding of what it really takes for humans to survive, regardless of whether someone else does the work for you. On most hunts, this goes beyond just "where meat comes from" - which is worth understanding. It's about finding shelter in the wilderness, feeding the hunting party, staying warm, keeping from getting lost, safely handling dangerous tools (guns, knives, camp stoves, vehicles, etc.). Furthermore, "the hunt" is a tradition as old as humanity that provides an opportunity to pass this knowledge and experience down through multiple generations at once.

-The fortitude to continually fight and protect our ability to shoot and hunt.

cooch
April 30, 2007, 06:42 AM
If hunting was as sure and certain a way of killing animals as has been implied ... it would be as boring as shopping for your meat at the supermarket.

Spend a few days crawling around mountain slopes steep enough to require you to hang on every step, because if you started sliding, you wouldn't stop until you hit bottom.
Do this in the rediculous attempt to sneak up on a bunch of critters with vision the equivalent of your eight-power binoculars, and a sense of smell that will pick you up a mile away if the mountain air swirls in the wrong direction.
Do it again. And again,,, because you won't be satisfied with just any animal.
Watch the cloud stream up the gully and obscure your target seconds before you are in a position to take the shot.
Lie behind your rifle on a rain-wet rock that slopes away to a sheer drop into the cloud ..... waiting just in case the cloud lifts for a few seconds, on the off-chance that the quarry is still there.
Then carry both meat and head out over the same terrain that tested your stamina to the maximum with an almost empty pack.

No meal bought from the butcher will taste quite like one earned in this manner.

In memory......... Peter

qajaq59
April 30, 2007, 09:25 AM
My boss once said, "All you do is let your coon hounds go and they chase it up a tree so you can shoot it."

I told him he left out the 9 miles of walking in and out of swamps, and up and down mountains, between the letting dogs go and the shooting.

H&Hhunter
April 30, 2007, 02:25 PM
One of the things that keeps me coming back year after year is the fact that I've never been able to quite get it right.Just when I think I am starting to get it all figured out something comes up that makes me realize that you can never know enough or be good enough or spend enough time in the field to truly get it all figured out.

Very seldom does a hunt workout as planned. In fact I'm not sure it ever has.

ArmedBear
April 30, 2007, 02:39 PM
Anyone who thinks hunting with a rifle is "unfair" -- or easy -- has never tried hunting.

Besides, what's "fair"? Is hauling animals from the feedlot to the slaughterhouse "fair"? Is it "fair" that cougars have big teeth and claws, can easily climb trees and can leap 18 feet vertically and up to 40 feet horizontally? Is it fair that wolves are intelligent pack animals that are not only physically strong and fast, but far stronger working as a large team? Deer have none of these advantages.

Hunting is not a duel; it's hunting. We hunt for food, just as cougars, wolves, and tigers do.

In a world full of convenience (like the mass industrial slaughter of domestic animals raised in tiny pens or dark warehouses), we call hunting "sport." But it's not "sport" like football, a ritualized battle. It's a very real, deliberate experience of a very real part our true nature from which we can feel isolated. It's more like reconnecting with our true selves, than a simple "sport."

R.W.Dale
April 30, 2007, 03:02 PM
Hunting can be as hard or as easy as you choose to make it, Sometimes I like to tromp off into the hills traversing streams climbing water falls and navigating thickets just cause I feel like it, Then theres the times I set up a deer blind in a cow pasture and spend the day inside eating beanie weenies chugging on Sams Choice cola reading Hitchikers guide with a heater blastin twards my chair.

Guess which style has proven to be more productive:D



Now small game hunting, that always turns out to be a workout. But it shure is fun.



But my point is I could care less what some busybody think constitutes hunting or is "unsporting". the ONLY thing I feel I owe the game animal is a trip through my digestive system. Do you think predators care if "fair" chase was given to the prey.

ArmedBear
April 30, 2007, 03:32 PM
Then theres the times I set up a blind in a cow pasture and spend the day inside eating beanie weenies chugging on Sams Choice cola reading Hitchikers guide with a heater blastin twards my chair.

Guess which style has proven to be more productive

It's true. Cows stand around in the open, they are really slow, you'd have to throw rocks at them to spook them, and there's a LOT more meat on a cow than a deer.

So I'm guessing you get more meat when you hunt a cow pasture. I know I do.:p

kellyj00
April 30, 2007, 04:16 PM
it's just the way that things go... some folks just don't understand that hunting is a skill and is a necessary function, at least in my parts, to keep the population of deer down.

Unfortunately, there's some very unrespectable hunters who shoot up signs, trespass, litter or tie a buck to the hood of their car...eyes wide open. The deer is a beautiful animal, don't tie it to your hood... respect it by putting it in the bed of your truck and come prepared. If we'd all have a little respect towards each others property and feelings we wouldn't have the debates about hunting that we do in my parts.

We all gladly pay an ammunition tax for all long gun ammo in this state that covers some of the costs to replace the road signs that get shot up. Best move the state made, because the anti-gun folks can't complain about their taxes covering what morons destroy because they don't buy ammo!

pdowg881
April 30, 2007, 04:37 PM
I'm going to be taking a hunting course in September and i can gaurantee you that if you sent me out in the woods tomorrow with the most expenisve hunting rifle to get a deer, i would come back with absolutely nothing. I don't think people realize how challenging hunting is and the skills involved.

H&Hhunter
April 30, 2007, 04:38 PM
Kelly,

Refer to this portion of my post,

Have the highest degree of moral character as what we do when we are not being watched is the highest definition of personal character.


My post refers to doing things the right way that is what makes us hunters and it is what differentiates us from slobs with guns and deer tag in their pocket.:)

ArmedBear
April 30, 2007, 06:19 PM
We all gladly pay an ammunition tax for all long gun ammo in this state that covers some of the costs to replace the road signs that get shot up.

Well, that means that, when you shoot a road sign, you've already paid for the privelege. So shooting a road sign in KS is hardly immoral, as long as you buy your ammo in Kansas. How is it immoral to avail yourself of an experience for which you have paid?

i can gaurantee you that if you sent me out in the woods tomorrow with the most expenisve hunting rifle to get a deer, i would come back with absolutely nothing.

I proved that last deer season. Hunting deer in San Diego County is VERY difficult. Next year, we're getting some redneck food stamps (doe tags).

We could have gotten a cow, actually. But we'd hiked in a couple miles in cactus-covered rough high country, and even at the road we just had a Jeep, so we didn't take the shot.:p

Troutman
May 1, 2007, 10:28 PM
<<They think that it is the rifle that makes the hunter and that said use of the rifle is unsporting.>>

So, you know what to do! Use one of those "blow the head off the saber-toothed tiger (charging at you at 45 MPH) handguns". You know the ones!

There's always going to be the person that says: "hunting with a rifle is not sporting, like". Just like some say: using a .223 (for deer) is not sporting, or a 300 Weatherby Magnum. Over-kill, under-kill? Is that really a BIG FACTOR? or, as some will say, bullet placement is more of a factor? Bullet placement is skill. O.K. you will lose a little more meat (on the more powerful cartridges), so...........? Or some say.....Using a semi-auto is not sporting. You only need one (two the most) shot for deer.
So, these wisdoms have SOME validity to it. Don't take it to heart, though.

vinpar092
May 1, 2007, 11:06 PM
Isn't it funny how its all unfair to anti's, like Rossie O., until someone threatens her life and amazingly and instantaniously she has 5 or so armed body gaurds protecting her. She just had to pick up the phone for her hunters. We have to train all year.

birddog
May 1, 2007, 11:17 PM
Bravo, H & H. Good to see you still posting in these parts. The sport of hunting certainly seems to be on the ropes lately and it's nice to know I'm not the only one on THR defending it. Excellent post.

Joel

ReadyontheRight
May 1, 2007, 11:31 PM
the ONLY thing I feel I owe the game animal is a trip through my digestive system

The answer truly is that simple.

What has happened to the USA? How 'bout we stop apologizing and take it back?

Troutman
May 2, 2007, 11:51 AM
<<What has happened to the USA?>>

Just talking about hunting, eating animal fleshÖÖWe are to be vegetariansí, donít you know that! Celebritiesí (some) promote it. PETA is one area, where they voice themselves. Itís a healthier lifestyle, donít you know that!? Itís a no brain-er!

Pamela A. (celebrity, PETA sponsor) says: (not quoting her exactly) Eating meat causes incompetence. This is why we donít have enough of people in the world, today.
I say: Hey Pam! So does breast implantsí (ones she has)ÖÖcan/could be far harmful to the human body. Can kill you! Pam, I hope that make-up you wear is animal-free tested? Ah... You donít need make-up! You look great the way you are, without it. OhÖPam, you looked ravishing in that fur. What kind of fur was that? Or is it synthetic (man-made)? Oh!!! That fur (animal) you WERE wearing at the time was BEFORE you became a PETA sponsor. Oh! O.K!
I have to be fair, in to daysí world. I just can not target just females. Political correctness? Itís only fair!
Alex B., (celebrity, PETA sponsor) their was a big thing about some incident with a family member, he treated? A phrase, pig was used, among other phrases. Why are people so quick in judging him, in a negative way? He holds the highest regard for animals, doesnít he? Holds a very high regard for animal welfare. Maybe more so, than the animalÖhuman? Iím confused!? The guy canít be all THAT bad! MaybeÖ.He should be a sponsor for CPS, instead of PETA? These people (celebrities) are Godsí. Or worshiped, as such. Role models? They canít do anything wrong! Is tabloid T.V., one of the most watched, on the small screen?

Conclusion: Donít hunt, eat animals. Animals (NON-HUMAN) are to be treated with the utmost respect, than human life-form. Its violent, degrading, inhumane, turnís onesí stomach. You will lead a healthier lifestyle for it. A kinder, gentler, nationÖ..world? Towards animals, on a lower level, anyway?

One says: I want to put a little meat, on me...you say!?
Vegetarian is the way to go!
For males, take steroids as a supplement.
For females, you always have breast implantsí. Isnít it, thee, IN thing?

One can also lead a healthy lifestyle, by having and making the right choices when it comes to eating meat and vegetablesí. This is a matter of education and choices one has about it.

Len S
May 11, 2007, 11:21 AM
While I am trying to explain waterfowl hunting to the unknowing I always say that I like to get ducks and geese within15-20 yards before I call the shot. They usually get outraged and say that is NOT giving the animal a sporting chance. I try to explain that getting tthe birds in that close is the sport and once we are going to shoot that we owe it to the animal to make the best killing shot possible. They usually look at me confused. Some get it most do not.:banghead:

Len

Art Eatman
May 11, 2007, 01:22 PM
Len S, a lot of people who've never done some particular action tend to think it's just not all that hard. And there is that percentage who tend to look down on the people who do things of which they disapprove. And, mostly, they've never really given it any thought.

I used to run across people who thought that the driving of a race car wasn't any big deal; the noise, smell and danger was all that was off-putting. And we'd see folks show up as Novices in their first sports-racing car who figured they'd run right out front: Hey, new car, new driving suit, gotta go just as fast as those other guys, right?

Wrong.

Lotsa stuff looks easy to an outsider when he's watching somebody who's been at it for years and decades...

Art

schmidtbender
May 11, 2007, 01:41 PM
+100... should be required reading for all hunters. The belief that technology is the cure all for hunting success is very popular and very wrong. I can tell from your "handle" that you know whereof you speak. Love those H&Hs. Just finished up this one (400 H&H) in spring 2006 and my 244 H&H is getting final chambering work as we speak. BRAVO wonderful post!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w320/schmidtbender/400HH-1.jpg

Rabbi
May 11, 2007, 02:05 PM
Hunter,

Thank you so much for your post. You speak eloquently for all of us who love the hunt and the outdoors.

Hunting satisfies a primal need in men to take their own food and supply their family and tribe. It is something the non hunters will never get to understand, let alone share in. I tend to think of hunters as better quality people than those who go thru life sheltered and dependent.

Thanks again for a post done well.

Best regards,

Rabbi

MrDig
May 11, 2007, 04:29 PM
What do you mean Difficult? all a guy has to do is walk into the woods and pull the trigger once to send hundreds of rounds off in any direction then look for what you hit. We all know hunters pull the trigger indiscriminately and Booze it up before handling a loaded firearm, It is a wonder we don't have bodies stacked like cord wood when hunting season is open.

Sorry just kidding, what I hate most from some of the non-hunters I know is the patrenizing line "But you are one of the few good (ie ethical ) hunters, you're not like the rest"
What a load of hooey I'm the only hunter they know.

P.S. Great Post H&H thanks

torpid
May 11, 2007, 05:20 PM
To be "fair" the hunter would have to be out in the wilds naked with opposable thumbs taped shut, and drugged to lower the intellect to a primal level.

I admit it, I'd watch. :D

ConfuseUs
May 11, 2007, 05:44 PM
If hunting was as sure and certain a way of killing animals as has been implied ... it would be as boring as shopping for your meat at the supermarket.


Actually, I remember sitting in a cornfield for a whole weekend waiting for the deer to show up and they didn't. Probably the most boring 2 days of my life.

People who don't hunt don't know anything about how hard it is to stay focused on the environment and wait for hours or days for something that might never happen, never mind the physical activity involved. The use of a rifle just means you don't have to get as close. People who have never hunted deer probably think it is only slightly harder than plopping a target out at 50-350 yds and shooting it once or twice.

ArmedBear
May 11, 2007, 06:35 PM
the hunter would have to be out in the wilds naked with opposable thumbs taped shut, and drugged to lower the intellect to a primal level.

Ironically, that sport is called "college," which is where anti-hunters get their ideas about things.:D

torpid
May 11, 2007, 07:01 PM
Ironically, that sport is called "college," which is where anti-hunters get their ideas about things. :D

I admit it, I'd watch. :D

MinScout
May 14, 2007, 09:54 PM
Deer hunting probably requires more persistance than "skill" in my area. Try sitting in a blind or stand for hours on end. Your butt gets sore, your fingers and toes are numb from the cold. Heading back to the truck for a hot cup of coffee starts to seem pretty tempting after awhile.

ranger335v
May 20, 2007, 03:39 PM
Antis are ignorance in action. Most of those I've spoken to are convinced that modern rifles are so powerful they shoot a mile before starting to drop and all can hit quarter sized targets within that range. They also assume the movies showing targets (critters) within visual range of a high power scope are dead meat, everytime.

I try to give a quick lesson on the facts of gravity and also that scopes only help SEE the target but don't improve shooting skills. A few get it, most of the self-styled "intellectuals" don't.

All of them seem to dream that meat markets have someone like holy priests who gently put the critters down and the parts magically fall into plastic wrapped packages in the store coolers without mess or pain.

Liberals are dumm and live in a world of illusions. Most are college trained too.

TimboKhan
May 23, 2007, 04:01 AM
To show how easy it is, I hunted elk for about thirty years, and I had the best mentor (my dad, who killed about 35 elk in his career). Hunted hard too. I blew a couple shots over that time, and let a few go because "something" wasn't right. Climbed umpteen thousands of feet of Rocky Mountains, in all kinds of conditions, from dark, snowy, hot, raining, you name it.

My total kill? One elk!

I always feel so guilty when I read stories like yours, larry. I have a nice bull to my name that I got on my very first, and to date, last, elk hunt back when I was in High School. Even worse, my dad and I were on the same ridge, and TWO bulls ran out. My dad shot his straight away, and had time to walk over and coach me through my bull fever while I shot. I am looking at the photo now of my dad and I, each with a bull, and it's a great memory.

KD5NRH
May 23, 2007, 04:29 AM
i can gaurantee you that if you sent me out in the woods tomorrow with the most expenisve hunting rifle to get a deer, i would come back with absolutely nothing.

And I could drive ten minutes, hike another ten, and get two does and a buck with my .357 snubby. They've stayed in pretty much the same spot for two deer seasons that I know of, and they've survived those seasons because it would be like hunting cows to take them there. I've been surprised when they spooked about 15 seconds after I'd fired a pistol at a squirrel while standing within 30 yards of them.

Now if they happen to wander through my scope in another place, outside their pretty obvious trails, they might be dinner.

H&Hhunter
May 23, 2007, 08:28 PM
Love those H&Hs. Just finished up this one (400 H&H) in spring 2006 and my 244 H&H is getting final chambering work as we speak. BRAVO wonderful post!

Schmidt,

That is a fine looking rifle! What action is it? I have to admit that the .400H&H has come to my attention recently.

If I didn't have a very nice Vecktor actioned Mauser, .404 Jeffery in the works I'd be getting started on a .400 right now.

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