[cpileri]

The Colibri ammo has been a big hit: tiny 22LR slug and no gunpowder. Quiet-load enthusiasts love it.

What would be the problem with "loading" other small calibers (or even big ones) with no powder?
Still risk stuck in longer barrels, Ok. Check.
Still wont cycle any actions, OK. Check.
But otherwise, no big deal right?

Anyone tried this out? any tips? soft lead only to make it as frictionless as possible?
i.e. using O-buckshot in .308-311 caliber loads (32acp, etc)

any info would be greatly appreciated!
C-

[Ledbetter]

I am no reloader, but I have seen lightweight plastic composite bullets for sale for the use you mention--primer-only practice.

[Johnny Guest]

At first blush, I am terrified at the thought - - -

I’ll admit there was a time I hand loaded with less than in proper caution. From time to time, I neglected proper procedure and occasionally seated a bullet in a primed case with no propellant a-tall.:eek: :o

I clearly recall hearing pop when I should have heard Bang. And the embarrassment of borrowing tools to clear a barrel. And the expense of the personal obligation to replace a friend's Gold Cup barrel after one of MY poof loads caused "a difficulty." :rolleyes:

I don't know how Aguila gets this product past their attorneys. Perhaps they feel that the use of CB and BB ammo in .22 RF is so well established that this, plus their prominently printed package warnings, will keep 'em out of litigation. Maybe they assume the risk of being sued for bulged .22 rifle barrels, knowing there's little or NO WAY to actually blow up a .22 barrel.

On second thought, though, if you or someone else worked up such a load for other cartridges - - .32 S&W, .32 ACP, or even .38S&W - - - I just might try 'em out in very short barrels. Little likelihood of harm, right?

On third thought - - - WRONG! I believe there is a HIGH probability that someone would end up doing damage to their gun, and even themselves, by sticking a bullet and then shooting a full power load next.

Tell you what, cpileri - - - While I have misgivings about this, I believe yours is a valid request for information. Let's leave this on the board and see what develops, with the following admonition:

Any member with input or suggestions on this topic is invited to share them. The only requirement is for those giving A LOAD. Each such post] must include at least an abbreviated bold print warning, akin to the following:
CAUTION: Use of the following load may result in a bullet stuck in a firearm barrel. This may result in damage to the firearm or injury to the shooter.

Please don't suggest loads without such a warning, because I will DELETE it without discussion. This is a matter of simple consideration for others.
Thank you for the cooperation.

Johnny Guest
H&R Moderator

[cpileri]

Well, that sounds totally fair- since I want actual, you know, information and not some total BS or else conjecture designed to get a guy maimed or killed!

Yes, in other words it is indeed a real request for information!

So, OK, short barrels: how about using some of those subcaliber adapters (basically a really short barrel)? say a powderless 32ACP in a 12ga?
No contact with the bbl after it leaves the adapter so it wont get stuck in the big 12ga bore. That might work, right? wrong?

Just ideas. And please share yours- within the bounds set by the moderator please.
C-

[Johnny Guest]

I really hadn't considered the subcaliber things for shotgun barrels. Might work pretty well. I'd be somewhat worried that the VERY low velocity might result in the bullet touching the shotgun bore before exiting the muzzle. Wonder if this would leave a "crease" where it touched?

I'm reasonably certain this would NOT work with a subcaliber "auxillary chamber" shooting .32 ACP through a .30 rifle barrel, though.

Kinda interesting. Let's see what develops.

Best,
Johnny

[jjmorgan64]

Simply for fun sake, load primer only then push the end of the brass into a 1/2" or so block of wax forming a wax wadcutter, wax bullets are fairly accurate and easily propelled by primer only in handguns. have tried them out of a 30-30 with limmited accuracy success.

Magnum primers seem to work better, and for best results in a revolver you should open up the flash hole slightly making the brass unsafe to use in standard loads, so mark it accordingly.

Lots of fun, and pretty quiet.

[Dave R]

This is not much help, but I have been to a website that has low power/low noise loads. .308, .223, etc. The loads used heavier bullets and some powder. The intent was to minimize noise, but still have good accuracy.

I'm too lazy to search, but its out there somewhere.

[BEARMAN]

I have tried the rubber X-RING BULLETS as sold by DILLON . In .357 mag in a ROSSI lever action with only a primer to propel them they stuck in the barrel. It wasn't that easy to clear because they are shaped like air rifle pellets and had to be pushed from the breach end of a lever action. Finally did it with a short piece of metal about 30 cal, and bounced it up and down, each bounce moved the bullet about a 1/2 inch, took a while. Try searching [ CAT SNEEZE LOADS ] or go to [ http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html ] . This is a site about low power loads with powder, my experiance is ,if you shoot it out of a rifle you need some powder and no powder in a 45ACP puts the bullet only part way down the barrel. Interesting question, check the site above, as it is pretty good. TAKE CARE IN YOUR RELOADING.

[longspurr]

Another question about light loads. If you drill out the primer pocket of a pistol case to accept a SHOTGUN primer I think you would have enought power to push a lead bullet out of the barrel. I haven't tried this but the shotgun primer has much greater power than a pistol primer.

Anyone try this yet???

[Glamdring]

Use of the following techniques may result in a bullet stuck in a firearm barrel. This may result in damage to the firearm or injury to the shooter

Some alternatives.

You might want to look at May 2001 No. 195 issue of Rifle
and April 2002 No. 216 issue of Handloader

In both of those Ross Seyfried has some articles on auxilary cartridges and the Game Getter.

The game getter allows you to use 22 BLANKS (for nailguns) in a steel insert for your rifle to shoot a lead roundball.

So in a 308 or 30-06 you could shoot O or OO buck (a sizer is included when you buy).

The 22 BlANKS come in 4 power levels. With No.1 being weakest and No.4 being strongest.

I haven't yet used this product. But I do plan to get one when I finally get a 375H&H, since I should be able to come close to performance of 36 caliber blackpowder squirrel rifle using the Game Getter in the 375.
***
WARNING: This CAN cause a bore obstruction. If another round is fired with a bore obstruction, DAMAGE and INJURY can result.
I have to admit I use Aguila Super Colibri ammo in my 22 rifle. In my defense, my 22 is a singleshot. So if I don't hear bullet hit target or see result (when shooting reactive targets) I just remove bolt and visually check the bore. You certainly don't HEAR a bang, all I can hear is the noise of the firing pin

I suspect these round have more power than some people expect, I haven't done extensive tests yet. But it seems to have more penetration against wood and fiber board than CB's do out of my rifle. CB's bounce, so far the Aguila has made holes from wood backers I have used. Which is partly because of pointed bullet I think.

[Ledbetter]

If a .22 cal primer only round has around the same gas expansion rate as a larger cartridge, wouldn't the smaller container/cartridge produce higher pressures?

I'm thinking yes. So that may be why primer-only's can be used in .22.

By the way, I think the X-Ring bullets are for pistols only.

[444]

I have the device that Glamdring mentions in .30-06. What this is is a standard cartridge case in the caliber you choose. The rear end of the case is cut off at the rim, and a steel insert is soldered into the case. This steel insert is chambered for a .22 blank. The blanks are made by Remington and are readily available at any Home Depot or similar hardware store. The kit includes a sizer. You put a pure lead ball in the sizer and pound or push it through with a dowel. In .30, you can use buckshot pellets that are avialable from Hornady in 5 poound boxes. The bullet is then seated into the case with thumb pressure. It is loaded and fired just like a standard cartridge. Reloading in the field is simple and fast. If you were willing to tie up the money, you could buy five of them and feed them through the magazine. They are sold by a guy in Canada who developed it to enable hiim to shoot small game while sheep hunting. Very interesting little toy. Doesn't have much range (maybe 30 yards) , accuracy is OK at best. Mine shoots about 2"-3" groups at 25 yards using a scope and a benchrest. I zero my rifle approx. 1 1/4" high at 100 yards with my hunting load. Using this "game getter" my rifle prints about 2" low at 25 yards with my zero. I took it deer hunting with me last year and used it to plink during my lunch break.

I have tried all kinds of "cats sneeze" loads in a variety of centerfire rifles. I reduced my powder charge (using the appropriate powder) until I stuck a bullet in the bore. This gives me a base line. I then add a little more powder for my final load. Note that at these extremly low velocities you have to be concerned with how dirty your rifle barrel is; increased friction. You can't just shoot a few hundred rounds of absolute minimum charges without eventually sticking one. You would be surprised how low you can go, but you can't go with primer only. The bullet will stick before you do away with powder all together.

I have tried the wax bullets in a number of handguns and rifles. If you are going, primer only; this is pretty much your only good option. I have also tried the plastic bullets and cases offered by Speer. They are OK. You reuse the bullet, but it has rifling engraved into it after the first shot, and you have to watch out what you use to catch them. I fired mine into a steel trap and ruined all the bullets.

[griz]

The closest I have come is using no powder loads in 223 with air gun pellets. The skirt of the pellet is too flimsy to seat, so I used thumb pressure to seat the pellet backwards. They made good indoor rounds to shoot into a stack of newspapers. Single shot of course.

I never clocked them but they penetrated about as far as a .177 cal air gun.

I had read somewhere that drilling a bigger flash hole would give the pellet more velocity. I tried it with a few cases, but for some reson they were less powerful and very inconsistent.

[cpileri]

Where did you find that device? I did a search for 'game getter' and got alot of hits that are not a chamber insert.
I have looked into all the other manufacturers of inserts, and own a few which I like very much.

I do in fact, have a 32acp-in-20ga insert. So a powderless 32acp load may be what I am seekign in this one. Now, if I can just find a bullet puller...

Use of the following techniques may result in a bullet stuck in a firearm barrel. This may result in damage to the firearm or injury to the shooter

Keep the info flowing! Please!
C-

[444]

Hammond Enterprises, LTD.
Box 41061, Petrolia PO
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada T6J6M7


I know of no easy way to contact him other than by mail.

[Glamdring]

AFAIK Game Getter isn't available online. Unless someplace like Midway carries it?

***
BTW Ross mentioned a neat trick for shooting reduced loads with a variable scope. You zero like normal for main big game load. Then you use the top of the bottom crosshair (assuming duplex crosshairs) as aiming point for the reduced load. The ht of the the crosshair will seem to change as you move power up or down. Lets you get elevation on for specific ranges.

***

444: Are you using a No.2 or No. 3 power load?

[John Galt]

These are repeatedly offered for sale in many cartridges on either eBay or gunbroker.com.

Primers only firing lead slugs will ONLY work in 22 rimfire. The Aguilla uses a 20grn bullet to make this work and they still say to not fire in a rifle.

All other lead slugs will be way too heavy to work.

The original instructions for the wax trick was to drill out for a shotgun primer.

Wax is way cheaper than anything else and is reuseable by remelting. Besides being safe indoors, cost would be a huge consideration. Wax takes care of that. These would only work right in a revolver.

[cpileri]

John Galt?
Why would that only work in 22 rimfire?
On that Gunwriters site, there are tons of examples of reduced centerfire loads- some lacking powder altogether.
C-

[only1asterisk]

On, drilling out flash holes: Winchested WinClean line has VERY oversize flashholes. Great for wax bullet loads!


David

[444]

Who the heck is John Gault ?

cpileri
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I have tried dropping powder charges down until a bullet stuck in the bore. This occured WITH powder. It stands to reason that if bullets stuck in the bore with powder, that there would be little point in trying to do it without powder. Now I won't say it is impossible. I pretty much only tried this with one bullet in each caliber. But I seriously doubt that you can shoot any bore sized lead bullet with a primer only out of a rifle. In handguns, I have done it only by accident. I have had squib loads where I failed to charge a case with powder, and every time, it resulted in a plugged bore. I have also had very light loads in handguns that had the bullet fail to exit the bore; so I would say that I doubt you can find a load firing a lead bullet that would reliably work in a handgun powered only by a primer. I once filled a S&W Model 27 barrel from end to end with bullets. I had just bought the gun. The dealer asked me if I would like some free ammo. It was a very light load that he had assembled for cowboy action shooting. A couple days before, I had been with him, shooting these same loads out of a 2" barreled revolver and they worked fine, although we chronoed them at somewhere around 400 fps. Appearently however, firing the same load out of a 6" barrel resulted in too much friction to allow the bullets to exit the bore. Since I had never fired this revolver before, I loaded it up and shot at a piece of junk lying in the desert. I didn't hit it and didn't see the bullets striking the ground. I assumed the sights were way off and moved on to paper. At no time was there any unusual report or any other cause to believe the barrel was plugged. When I had no holes on paper, I finally punched in and examined the bore. I had bullets from end to end. I know this sounds stupid and it was. But the moral of the story is that even with powder in the case, the bullets plugged the bore. I can't see how removing the powder would help things.

[BluesBear]

What seems to have been overlooked here is that Aquila Colibri ammunition doesn't use the standard .22 rimfire priming compound. It clearly states on the box that it uses a special primer from Ely.

Pull the bullets from a regular .22 and the Colibri and then fire just the primers. The Colibri will definately have a stouter report.

I have found that when fired from either a Marlin 81DL bolt action or Marlin 39A rifle that the bullet won't reliably penetrate a 20oz soda bottle at 20 feet. Some will even bounce back and land at your feet.

2 or 3 from each box won't exit the barrel. The next shot usually drives them both out. Of course this is using a 24" barrel. If they stop in the barrel it's usually just a few inches from the muzzle.

They seem to have much more velocity from a 6" revolver. Sometimes penetrating both sides of the soda bottle.

[444]

"The closest I have come is using no powder loads in 223 with air gun pellets. The skirt of the pellet is too flimsy to seat, so I used thumb pressure to seat the pellet backwards. They made good indoor rounds to shoot into a stack of newspapers. Single shot of course."

When you did this, did you wrap the bullet in something ? Tape ? I played around with this and the pellet just drops into the case.


"444: Are you using a No.2 or No. 3 power load?"

No. 2
I have never chroned it however.

[cpileri]

interesting stuff.
BTW I tried to use 32ACP with the powder dumped out and a Hornady 0-Buckshot pressed on with finger pressure.
Click.
Huh?
Checked it out and the rpimer went off but the pellet stayed affixed to the case, the inside of the case and the backside of the pellet covered in soot from the primer. Didn't budge at all!
Sure was quiet though!

I haven't yet spent a day with a 1/4-grain at a time to see at what point it will begin to move.

(its been awhile since I read this thread: did I already write this stuff previously?)

C-

[shu]

the best subsonic load information i have found is at
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html
the finns apparently have a thing about silencers and quiet loads.

i built some 38spl: small dab of bullseye, felt wad, musket ball seated with a short dowel.

SOME OF THESE DID INDEED LODGE IN THE BARREL. CHECK AFTER EVERY SHOT. BRING ALONG A WOOD DOWEL ROD TO REMOVE ANY STUCK ROUNDS.

i was using a winchester 94 lever gun (357mag). velocity varied widely. noise was dissappointingly loud, on the order of 22lr - i was hoping for something more like pellet gun.

[Cal4D4]

Does CCI or anyone else still offer their .30 cal Red-Jet bullets? They work pretty well as a primer only load in 30.06 and such.

[griz]

Hello 444,
I didn't use anything but the pellet in a sized case. Never tried them in anything but a single shot but don't remember any problems.

[444]

Ok
I had someone tell me about doing this about two weeks ago. I bought a can of .22 pellets and tried seating one in a sized and primed case. It just fell into the case and of course I couldn't get it back out. Tried it again with the same result; put the project on hold. I wonder if maybe I put some wax or bullet lube on the pellet to hold it in place ?

[griz]

Maybe different pellets would work. I've never measured them, but since the skirt will follow the rest of the pellet in a regular airgun, there would be no need for a standard size on the skirt. Possibly I lucked into a wide skirt pellet, no doubt due to my frugal nature causing me to buy whatever was cheapest.

A wierd idea just occured to me. You may be able to flare the skirt on your pellets to get them to work. I'm thinking along the lines of pushing a center punch into the hollow base to size the thing up enough so it would catch on the case mouth. I'm not sure if the taper of a center punch would be right, but you could find something to try with the appropriate point. Just a thought, and it is late....
Good luck.