[realmswalker]

Hello,

I just picked up a bolt action savage model 111 in 30-06. I have some winchester X 190 grain match grade spitzer boat tail hollow points. I was wondering if anyone could give me a good powder to put behind these bullets and at what grains?

I already have some IMR 4064 so if thats one of the better powders what grain load should I start with? My brass is mixed.

[USSR]

realmswalker,

Reloader 22 is THE powder for 190gr bullets in the .30-06 in a boltgun. Using 60.7gr of RL22 in either Lapua or LC Match brass will yield about 2875fps and excellent accuracy. Start at 59.0gr and work up from there.

Don

[realmswalker]

Thank you don

[realmswalker]

just picked up some reloader 22, and am mostly shooting out of R-P brass. can anyone tell me what a good COAL is for this bullet?

[Sunray]

"...what grain load should I start with?..." I'd suggest you start with a manual. Then work up a load beginning with the starting load for that bullet weight and powder.
IMR4320 and IMR4350 are the powders given in my Lyman book as accuracy loads for 190's.
IMR4064 works extremely well with 165 grain hunting bullets and 168 grain match bullets though.

[Stinger]

I agree with the others. IMR 4064 is an excellent powder with the '06, but for the heavy bullet you are using, you will probably have best luck with a slower powder.

[Bottom Gun]

I use IMR 4064 for 110-180 gr bullets and IMR 4831 for 180-200 gr bullets to use in my 22" barrels.
I have also found IMR 4895 works well, especially in my 18" barrel.

[blancoman]

try going to handloads.com. You will find powder and bullet combinations for every caliber you shoot. Personally in the 06, I shoot 49gr. of Varget with a 168gr Hornady Vmax. Groups under .5MOA. One of the thousand yard shooters uses 50gr. Varget. Check the manuals before loading any suggested combinations.

[realmswalker]

I tried handloads.com and got two loads for reloader 22 at 190 grain bullets. 62 and 60.4 then I went to alliant powder web site and their disclaimer says

DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE.

well the load for 30-06 with 190 gr bullets bthp sierra matchking is 60 grains, i am using winchester matchking bthp 190 gr bullets. So am I going over what alliant considers the max If i load anything over 60?

I do have a sierra loading manual number 13, but the stupid thing doesnt even list the 190 grain bullet under 30-06, so I have no reference there

I think I will start with some loads at 59, 59.5 and 60. But i am still a little bit confused about what alliant says about exceeding 60 and what most of the loads are that are listed. any help and advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Smokey Joe]

Realmswalker--I do have a sierra loading manual number 13, but the stupid thing doesnt even list the 190 grain bulletWhat that tells you is that Sierra doesn't make a 190 grain .308 bullet. Most manuals supplied by components makers are slanted toward the use of their components--natch.

The workaround is to have more than 1 manual. Most reloaders accumulate several, and cross-check among them all when developing a new load.

My go-to manual is Lyman's 48th edition, and one of the reasons is that Lyman does NOT make loading components. But that manual is not perfect either, so I also have the Sierra, Hodgdon, and Nosler manuals, plus any number of the little freebie handouts that all of the component makers publish.

The other source nowadays is the I'net of course; each of the major component makers has a website with loading recipies.

I do NOT reccommend using recipies from anonymous sources. The major manufacturers have a know whereabouts, and can be sued, so they are much less apt to carelessly reccommend a recipie that you find out the hard way was a serious overcharge.

On another topic, your mixed brass probably will never get the maximum performance out of those nice match bullets. I'd suggest purchasing a set of Lapua or Norma cases and weighing them, and not using the extreme light or heavy weight ones except for fouling shots. Spendy, but believe me in a match your competition will have done so, and the results justify the cost.

Anyhow, good luck in your quest, and I wish you many X's.

[Sunray]

"...I am using..." Load for the bullet weight. Who made them doesn't matter.
"...am I going over what Alliant considers the max If i load anything over 60?..." Yep. That's why it says "DO NOT EXCEED". Alliant's site lists MAX loads. Reduce by 10% and work up to the max load.
Handloads.com lists loads posted by non-professionals. Always, check any load you see there or anywhere else, with a manual. Some people think they know more than the ballistics engineers at the loading companies and will ignore maximums.

[USSR]

I tried handloads.com and got two loads for reloader 22 at 190 grain bullets. 62 and 60.4 then I went to alliant powder web site and their disclaimer says

DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE.

well the load for 30-06 with 190 gr bullets bthp sierra matchking is 60 grains, i am using winchester matchking bthp 190 gr bullets. So am I going over what alliant considers the max If i load anything over 60?

I do have a sierra loading manual number 13, but the stupid thing doesnt even list the 190 grain bullet under 30-06, so I have no reference there

I think I will start with some loads at 59, 59.5 and 60. But i am still a little bit confused about what alliant says about exceeding 60 and what most of the loads are that are listed. any help and advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

realmswalker,

All reloading manual's so-called "Max Loads" are thoroughly vetted by their lawyers, and have absolutely nothing to do with an "actual" maximum, since a maximum load in one rifle may not be a Max Load in another rifle. In addition to the rifle-to-rifle variance, the choice of components and various reloading practices will also contribute to what is a Max Load in a particular rifle. So, how can one determine a Max Load in one's rifle? Two ways. First, use a chronograph to determine that the velocity you are getting from your loads are reasonable for the bullet weight you are using for the length of the barrel you have. And, second, learn to read pressure signs on brass. Using these two methods, you will safely be able to determine what is a Max Load in your particular rifle. A reloading manual is a good guide, but is by no means the last word on what loads can be safely used in your rifle.

Don

[Shoney]

Starting out reloading, a crusty O.P. gave me a few pointers. One of his many sayings went like this, "Kid! You'll never bop a bull in the but with a banjo, no matter how fast ya swing it, unless ya sing it accurate."

I was alway under the impression reloading was about finding the most accurate load, not the fastest. There was never a free lunch, I had to work up several loads with several powders and with several bullets. I have owned many 06's over the years, I alway tried to find the powder and the load that would give me the "fastest accrate load". In those 06's, only one achieved accuracy very near the listed max.

One 06 had an accuracy load 3 grains under max, with a powder that did not produce the higher velocities, but you could depend on that load to alway fire shots that touched at 100 yards. Another 06 produced its best groups at 2 grains over max with no pressure signs.

Maybe you will be lucky enough to grab one powder, bullet and primer combo, set the load weight and col just a hair under max on your first try, and get a very accurate load. I never was.

[Lennyjoe]

My savage 110 loves 165gr Sierra Gameking and 56.0gr of IMR 4350. Very accurate loads and deadly on deer.

[Art Eatman]

I've gotten very tight groups with both 4064 and H414, with Sierra 180-grain SPBTs. I imagine they'd work well with a 190.

I got 0.4 MOA three-shot group with the H414. I quit 'cause I didn't want to embarrass the next shooter. :D:D:D

Art

[Smokey Joe]

Realmswalker--you also asked how long the cartridge should be with this or any bullet. The best answer is, "it depends."

What it depends on, is (a) how deeply throated yr rifle bbl is, and (b) what is the curve of the bullet from the bearing surface to its tip, and (c) secondarily, how much space--front to back--is there in yr rifle's magazine.

So the best answer you can have is one you will have to work up for yrself, finding first, how long this cartridge will be if the bullet just touches the rifle's lands, and secondly, how far back from the lands is the optimum distance for the particular load you are using, and thirdly, does a cartridge so loaded fit in yr rifle's magazine.

If you are single-loading the rounds, the third consideration is moot.

If you are going to use the magazine, and it only allows cartridges just so long, simply load 'em short enough to load in the magazine and you're stuck with that as your OAL regardless.

To find optimum COAL:

Start by using the COAL given for this bullet in yr loading manual, and work up an accurate round using the standard COAL. Now you can work on the optimum COAL.

You find the max cartridge length for THIS bullet (it varies for every different bullet) by sawing the neck of a sized, empty, case down the side, placing the bullet in question in the case, rather far out, (it will be held, but loosely) and chambering this test round. The bullet will contact the rifle's lands and be seated deeper. Then you extract the round carefully, and measure the OAL of this test cartridge with a caliper. Now you know the absolute max COAL for THIS bullet, in THIS rifle. You can re-use the neck-sawed test case when you are working up the COAL for a different bullet.

Stoney Point makes a nifty gadget that greatly simplifies finding the max COAL for a given cartridge and bullet, but it's kinda spendy for something you use so seldom, IMHO. You can order the Stoney Point equipment from Midway if desired.

Next you load up several cartridges for each COAL you want to try, using the already-proven load. I use 10 rounds each when doing this--you want some statistical evidence on your side, and to be able to discount called flyers and still have several shots.

The series could be, for example, 0.002" off the max COAL, 0.004", 0.006", 0.008" and 0.010". That's 50 rounds. Shoot 'em all in one session so the conditions are the same. Use a different target for each. One of the groups may be notably smaller than the others. When you find that smallest group, that's the proper COAL for THAT rifle, using THAT exact load, and THAT bullet.

Putzy? You durn tootin'. But that's how it's done.

[stovepipe699]

As long as you reduce the load to start off, and work your way up .5 grain at a time, you don't need to worry too much. Watch for signs of pressure and if you reach a hot load you'll know it.

[boobap]

I've gotten very tight groups with both 4064 and H414, with Sierra 180-grain SPBTs. I imagine they'd work well with a 190.

I got 0.4 MOA three-shot group with the H414. I quit 'cause I didn't want to embarrass the next shooter.

Art

what amount of H414?

[LAH]

Smokey Joe did you say Coal Mining?

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Creeker001.jpg

[Smokey Joe]

LAH--Yeah, I said COAL mining! :D

I've often thought there was an inherent pun of sorts, in a term referring to rifle ammunition, which also refers to a dark substance from a dark place, which is used to produce fire and heat. And black gunpowder, at least, has charCOAL as one of its ingredients.

Glad somebody else can see, and smile about, the word-similarity!

The man who called the pun the lowest form of humor had just had a good one pulled on him. :D

[LAH]

Very good Smokey.

EX COAL MINER.......Creeker

[Oohrah]

One powder not mentioned that would put out acurate results
in over a dozen rifles with 1 in 10 barrels and the heavier bullets,
is 4831. Velocity is not the greatest, but it do make outstanding
consistant groups!!!!

[USSR]

Velocity is not the greatest...

This is indeed true. Have never understood why H4831 runs about 150fps slower than RL22 when they have about the same burn rate.

Don

[Art Eatman]

boobap, about a grain under the book max. Hodgdon book, as I recall. (The rifle is on loan and the ammo went with it, so I don't recall the exact amount.)

Art

[GooseGestapo]

Having loaded for a number of '06's, I "second" the RL-22 as the powder of choice. However, that dosen't mean there aren't other good ones available.
Start with 58.0gr of RL-22. 60.0 is my favorite with a 180gr. 61.0 is all you can get in the case and seat the bullet over ,hence it IS the maximum, unless you've got some really thin cases.

57.5-59.0gr of H4831 will do well too, but will run ~100fps slower. (It's in the pressure curve, RL-22 "peaks" a little slower. (Also means it'll destroy the op-rod on a Garand quicker too.)

For absolute accuracy, IMR4350 might in some rifles exceed the RL-22, in that case........ 54.0-55.0gr of IMR4350 would do well. Velocity is about like the 4831's.

Use a seating depth of 3.30-3.33" oal. (3.34" is the usual max to fit the magazine.) Usually, in a "rack" grade rifle, about .050" off the lands gives best accuracy. I've seen as short as 3.250" give best accuacy however. Unless you have a bench-rest grade barrel, the seating depth won't make that much difference.

The compatability of the bullet to your barrel and componenets is more important to accuracy.

[SlamFire1]

I had a batch of 190’s and developed some loads in my 30-06 Match rifle, wanted to shoot them at 1000 yards. I found H4350 was too slow, but IMR 4350 worked just fine. In the end I preferred 200 grain bullets and used those. My data is below.



M98 Match Rifle 26" 1-10 Wilson Barrel

175gr Sierra 56.0 grs H4350 wtd. WLR Commerical cases OAL 3.290"
5 Oct 2000 T=70°F

Group Size Very Good

Ave Vel = 2733
Std Dev = 22
ES 80
Low 2686
High 2766
N = 14

190gr Speer 54.0 grs H4350 wtd. FED 210M Frontier cases OAL 3.350"
5 Oct 2000 T=70°F

Group Size Very Good mild primers

Ave Vel = 2517
Std Dev = 17
ES 53
Low 2483
High 2536
N = 10


190gr Speer 55.0 grs H4350 wtd. FED 210M Frontier cases OAL 3.350"
5 Oct 2000 T=70°F

Group Size Very Good rounded primers

Ave Vel = 2590
Std Dev = 8
ES 25
Low 2579
High 2604
N = 9

190gr Speer 54.0 grs AA4350 wtd. FED 210M W/W cases OAL 3.350"
5 Oct 2000 T=70°F

Group Size Excellent group rounded primers

Ave Vel = 2642
Std Dev = 14
ES 44
Low 2629
High 2673
N = 10


200 gr Sierra Match 51.0 IMR 4350 wt'd WWII cases (190 to 195 gr cases) Fed 210S OAL 3.35
30 April 98 T=72°F

Group Size0.9" * 0.9"


Ave Vel = 2460
Std Dev = 21
ES 68
Low 2427
High 2495
N = 10

200 gr Sierra Match 52.0 IMR 4350 wt'd WWII cases (190 to 195 gr cases) Fed 210S OAL 3.35
30 April 98 T=72°F

Group Size1.1" * 1.8"

Ave Vel = 2581
Std Dev = 74
ES 205
Low 2481
High 2686
N = 10


200 gr Sierra Match 53.0 IMR 4350 wt'd WWII cases (190 to 195 gr cases) Fed 210S OAL 3.35
30 April 98 T=72°F

Group Size1.1" * 0.55" Primers flattened, max load

Ave Vel = 2585
Std Dev = 34
ES 129
Low 2546
High 2675
N = 10