This summer some friends and I will hike a portion of the Appalachian Trail in North Carolina. I own several 9mm handguns but I know from reading here and elswhere that the 9mm is not ideal for woods carry and potential large animal attacks. Would an upgrade to the 10mm put me closer to where I need to be in terms of power? I am familiar with the Glock platform(17&26) so that is probably what I would purchase(Glock 20). Thanks in advance for any input you can give me.
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May 2, 2007, 08:46 PM
Loaded with 16 of these (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=105) you should be okay.
May 2, 2007, 08:50 PM
Double-Tap is the brand that I was considering using.
May 2, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think it is a great chioce. You get plenty of power in a light package..
Go for it!
May 2, 2007, 09:59 PM
The Glock 20 is a fine pistol, I have one and will sometimes carry it on day hikes. The 10mm round is great for self defense against man and animals.
However, I think you might want to think about the following:
First, on the Appalachian Trail you will need to conceal your gun just as much as you do at the mall. At least on the part of the trail inside national parks (such as the Smoky Mtn Natl Park, which is the part of the trail I am familiar with), you are not supposed to have a gun at all, so it will need to be hidden. You will meet people on the trail, and will probably get reported to rangers if someone sees you have a gun. The size of the G20 makes it difficult to conceal. However, I would say that I think fanny packs are the best way to conceal while on the trail, and the size of the gun is not all that important in that regard. Carrying on a belt is not feasible if your backpack has a belt on it (which it should if you have a decent pack). Coming up with a good combo for carrying concealed while still keeping it easily accessible while carrying a back pack takes some thought.
Second, I have run into many more weird/strange/dangerous looking people on the Trail than dangerous animals. Seeing bears at all is uncommon. I think we tend to over-prepare for bears and underprepare for people. I think the 10mm, while an excellent round, is more than you really need.
Finally, don't forget about weight. The G20 is heavy, and a full mag of ammo is heavy. It doesn't seem like much on day 1, but wait til day 3 or 4. When you compare the weight of the G20 to the likelihood of needing it, the ratio is pretty bad. You will find out very quickly whats worth carrying and what isnt.
Take all this with a grain of salt. Its just my personal opinion from hiking the trail in the Great Smoky Mtns. I favor the Glock 19 for this purpose. Its lighter, smaller, and easier to conceal. It has plenty of power and capacity against the type of predators I am most likely to encounter (ie, man).
I would make this disclaimer though. If you ever read the headline "Lone Gunman Eaten by Bear on Appalachian Trail", and read on to find that my glock 19 was at slide-lock, you can better believe my last thought was "I shoulda brought the Glock 20".
May 2, 2007, 10:34 PM
The 10mm is my outdoors gun. I'd carry Glock 10mm if I didn't like CZs better. Although a clone, the Witness is very much a CZ75 and has held up well with my handloads and the Double Tap Ammo that it loves.
I'm told that Bear Hunters in Michigan (and elsewhere) rely on the 10mm
and have long since retired the .44 mags in favor of the lighter and
sometimes better penetrating TEN.
I like the controlled recoil and high capacity /faster reload of the Mighty TEN.
A Guide in Alaska killed a black bear with one shot (head) to a marauding blackie. I would feel well armed with a 10mm on grizzly..well enough to get my
45-70 guide gun or my CZ in .338.
Glocks are my second favorite psitols and I think that you would really enjoy
a G20 or G29. As for Ammo..the guys on Glock Talk love the Double Tap!
May 2, 2007, 10:37 PM
The 10mm G20 is my woods gun here in the SE and elsewhere when I'm recreating or working afield. I like and shoot Doubletap (esp. the 200 gr. XTP's), but have grown fond of the 180 gr CorBon soft points, as well. I prefer the 200 gr Beartooths over the heavier bullet for the hardcast option. The Wilderness Safepackers work well for carry. I've comfortably carried my G20 and spare mag all day doing pretty strenuous work in the S. Apps.
May 2, 2007, 10:48 PM
Beats a sharp stick anyday and a "heavy" Glock 20 is better than throwing rocks, cursing or shaking an angry fist. Somehow, some critters, including the two-legged ne'er do well, lack respect those signs of defensively based hostile display and back-off like we passive, nice grain-eating, granola-chewing, vegetable loving (with a touch of meat, say 1 lb. per serving), folks like ourselves would wish them to. So, friendly helpful pacifist folks who have no mean bone or harbor any ill-will are unfortunately compelled by the aggressive and threatening behavior of those miscreants to resort to our Austrian Safety System. Hopefully mere presence alone deters any tendency towards untasteful violence.
May 3, 2007, 12:01 AM
Thanks for the relplys. Lots to think over.
May 3, 2007, 12:43 AM
Great choice IMO you get 10 more rounds than most heavy caliber wheelguns with slightly faster recovery time between shots and faster reloads if needed.
Near .41 magnum power levels with the right ammunition.
Only drawback is the weight but if it is ever really needed weight will be the last thing on your mind.
Glock replaced the long traditional dependable wheelgun in most American lawmen officers holsters for one simple reason they work.
Many gun experts state a minimum of .40 caliber for hunting or defence:
Jeff Cooper Bren 10 or .45acp
Elmer Keith .44 Special .44 Magnum .41 Magnum
Bill Jordan .357 or .41 magnum
Ted Nuegent 10mm Glock
With the right loads you are near a .41 Magnum in power level.
I IMO you have a winning pistol and caliber combination.
May 3, 2007, 01:16 AM
The Glock 21 with 45 Super ammo is about the only light weight auto loader that is as light and more powerful than top loads of 10mm in a Glock 20.
May 3, 2007, 02:04 AM
You could go with the Glock 29 in a Safepacker - still 10mm, but much more compact, and stealthy in the Safepacker.
May 3, 2007, 02:07 AM
anytime i see 10mm thread, there's always double tap.
are there no more 10mm ammo manufacturer, or you're pretty much stuck with this stuff?
May 3, 2007, 02:31 AM
No - you can get it from several manufacturers (Buffalo Bore, for example, but also Winchester and other big name brands), but DoubleTap makes an enormous variety of the 10mm ammo, they are properly hot-loaded, and the ammo is not expensive.
May 3, 2007, 03:28 AM
Trying to pick a trail gun really brings out the compromises inherent to all handguns. You want something small and comfortable to hike around, but for all you know you'll run into a 450 lb. brown bear (in many parts of the US ... maybe even meaner stuff other places). A 10mm is the biggest Glock, so it's a great choice, but if you take a step back and realize that what you really want is a big game rifle, you have to admit that 10mm isn't significantly better than 9mm +P, 357 Sig, or 40 S&W. If you're worried about running into an animal bigger than you are, you probably want to use a reasonably high-velocity high-energy round so at least you could try to shoot a bear in the head, so I would stay away from the higher grain lower velocity 45 rounds, but some 165 grain .45 +P would be just as good as anything else.
You can say what you really want is a .44 Mag, but then you're either talking about a lightweight gun with absurd recoil that you probably won't get adequate range time with, or else you're talking about big revolvers weighing around 50 oz. that still aren't exactly fun to shoot.
So I'd say go with whatever you're comfortable lugging around and get a lot of practice with it.
Sundles: You think massively overpressure ammo is a good idea in the unsupported Glock 21 chamber?
May 3, 2007, 04:03 AM
I have a G20 for outdoors carry. I used to carry a 1006 S&W but that dude was way too heavy. Climbing up/down ridges here in Arizona is tough enough especially with rocks and cacti.
The 10MM round will provide plenty of power for woods carry. Only time I'd trade it in for my .44 would be in grizzly country.
Even there, the .44 might not make me feel at ease.:)
May 3, 2007, 04:47 AM
A couple things:
Energy means nothing to larger game such as bears--I mean nothing. What kills bears is a BIG hole going DEEP that destroys bones and organs. Energy uses velocity squared in the mathmatical formula. This gives high numbers to faster lighter bullets, but faster lighter bullets will not give the penetration you need on very big game. If you must use math to determine bullet effectiveness on big game, use the Taylor KO formula--it takes into account bullet diameter (something that enrgy figures do not include) as well as bullet weight and velocity, but not velocity squared. The KO formula was developed by an actual (imagine that) African hunter with many THOUSANDS head of African game to his credit. Taylor was not a number cruncher who sat on his butt for a living.
Example: a 22-250 spits a 50 gr. bullet out at almost 4000 fps. (1776 ft. lbs) The original 45-70 load utilized a 405gr. bullet at 1300 fps, (1519 ft. lbs.) but as you can see, the 22-250 has higher energy numbers. The old 45-70 load has a good track record for killing bears with body shots. How do you think the 22-250 load would work on bear body shots????
Weve punched the standard 230gr. FMJ-fn 45 acp +P all the way through medium sized black bear, broadside. Try doing that with some light weight hollow nosed 45 acp+p load--wont happen.
As for the 45 Super being fired in the unsuported chamber of a Glock 21. I do it sometimes. Why? Because 45 Super brass is made only by Starline and it is designed with a very strong web in order to account for unsuported chambers. So, 45 Super brass is a far different animal than 45 acp brass, although external dimensions are the same. Also, I do not see the 28,000 CUP that the top 45 Super loads operate at, as being "massively over pressure". If you are using 45 Super brass, there simply is not a problem.
May 3, 2007, 04:58 AM
Since you asked, Buffalo Bore makes two full power 10mm loads, but Double tap makes about six differnt 10mm loads. Just about every other maker of 10mm ammo, has the ammo watered way down.
We can barely keep our 180gr. Gold Dot load @1350 fps in stock. We also make a 200 FMJ-FN load at 1200 fps, but it sells mostly to guys who carry their 10mms in the woods. Our two loads are flash suppressed and I dont know if the Double tap ammo is.
Double tap sells only over the internet, so unlike us, they dont have layers of pricing for distributors and dealers, so they are cheaper over the net--at least for now. If the day ever comes that they want to sell in Cabelas or be carried by dealers or distributors, their pricing will have to go up. I cannot speak to their quality, but a lot of guys like their ammo.
May 3, 2007, 06:53 AM
10mm for woods carry a good choice. G29 instead of a G20 good choice for expedition trekking as mentioned in thread. Double tap hard-cast mentioned for ammo, I've shot some, they got plenty of oomph for a black bear. But Double Tap's 45ACP FMJ-FN work well also. DT goes boom more than any other ammo I've used or reloaded for my 45 and 10. They use powders that you and I cannot get a hold of at your local sporting goods store.
Some packs have zippered side pockets on the waist belt, a G29 may fit, but these packs are hard to find and the pocket may print the gun, it would need a test fit. They hold my canon digital camera, but not my compact 45. It's too tight and the grip sticks up and just won't zip closed. But this is on a ski/snowboard specific pack with less than expedition sized waist belt. A larger model or accessory belt pocket may do the trick. Even if you find the accessory pocket you want but it doesn't fit, any shop that sews leather should have an adequate machine to add a bigger elastic belt loop or similar to fit.
I've considered doing this for my big pack but have just never got around to it. I don't like taking my pack off or carrying the camera in the pocket all the time. Especially in summer and light shorts.
May 3, 2007, 02:43 PM
Are you honestly trying to suggest that the Taylor KO formula is better than actual testing? That is one man's guess at how effective large caliber rifles are for elephant hunting. It's hardly relevant.
If you're talking about defending yourself in the woods with a handgun vs. a bear, that is a much different situation than hunting an elephant. You're not going to take long-range shots at a bear. A bear you meet in the woods will usually be non-aggressive and not give you any problems unless he's hungry and you've got food on you. You shouldn't be taking long-range shots at a bear with a handgun, and you probably shouldn't be aiming for the body. If you have determined a bear is a threat, shooting him in the body with any handgun will probably not help you much, because the bear can kill you much faster than it will die from a body shot. You'd actually be better off with some kind of anti-bear spray. Keep in mind we're talking about a fairly desperate situation here: You are in the woods with just a handgun and a bear has decided to attack you. Your best option is a head shot, and you're better off using high-velocity high-penetration ammo. A .45 just isn't that good an idea. Maybe if you were using DPX .45 +P. You should probably be looking at hard barrier test results.
May 3, 2007, 03:00 PM
The Danish Slæde- patuljen Sirius carry the Glock 20,
The choice of a Sirius Patrol pistol was also determined by concerns about encounters with aggressive polar bears. Most Danish units use 9mm automatics like the CF but the Sirius Patrol learned through hard experience that 9mms had insufficient ‘stopping power’ to deal with angry adult polar bears. As a result, Sirius Patrol members carry a more powerful 10mm pistols for self-defence, employing the 10mm Glock 20 automatic.
May 3, 2007, 04:45 PM
From your user name I would guess you have a .45, you could use that but for backpacking the G29, would be better than the G20, size and weight wise. With 10+1, you have more firepower than a .44 mag in my opinion. The trade off would be the ability to execute quick follow up shots. Just some thoughts.
Good Luck and Be Safe!
May 3, 2007, 06:36 PM
Im suggesting that the KO formula was derived from actual testing--as I stated in my first post, it was derived from shooting literally thousands head of African game.
Again, the Taylor KO formula is a better mathmatical formula than kenetic energy formulas, IF YOU MUST QUOTE FORMULAS, which you did, in your first post, so I responded that the KO formula is more relevant than energy formulas. If it will KO an elephant, it'll most likely KO a tiny bear--can you make that connection?
Further, Ive personally killed dozens of bear. Ive even been attacked/charged by bear a few times. Ive had bear be aggressive in other ways too. So, all this yaking about bears is in my opinion irrelevant to any thing less than actual experience. I started hunting AK brown bear twice a year (every spring and fall) when I was in my twenties. I would sometimes pass up over two hundred bear before I would shoot one. That put me in the proximity of lots of coastal grizzly bears and lots of old Klinket Indian bear guides. It was a good education. I also hunted lots of bear in the "lower 48, mostly Idaho. What is your actual/personal experience with bears?
May 3, 2007, 10:12 PM
Glock is great pistol but in my opinion light for 10mm. In that caliber I prefer EAA Witness with full steel frame.
Now how affective is any handgun round against bear is another story.
May 3, 2007, 10:20 PM
I actually held a G20 today. Compared to a .40SW 22 Glock, it has a thicker longer slide, and a larger frame. It feels like a G22 on steroids. I found the grip's width was to big for my medium size hands so I don't feel I would be able to shoot this gun well. The weight is not bad for the size, but it is several ounces heavier than a Glock 22. Probably not the best pistol if you are looking for a concealable lightweight pistol. The 10mm is more than enough for most woodland beast in the lower 48.
Its up to you if you want to carry a heavy extra-large frame pistol days on end. All things considered it is probably rare you will come in contact with an aggressive Blk bear, most of the time they run away, or just curiously look at you. I don't know what the bear issue is in NC, but here in Southern New England, they are more of a pest than a threat. Of course they are a wild animal, and unpredictable. Personally, while hiking I am more concerned about the two legged beasties in the woods than four legged variety. IMHO, a Glock 27, G30, or a lightweight J-frame .357 Mag revolver would be an ideal companion.
May 4, 2007, 02:37 AM
The good news about black bear attacks is that you dont have to kill them to stop the attack. Just shoot them with something that severely hurts them and they will cease. The 10mm with decent ammo, will stop the attack of a black bear.
Grizzly bear is another matter.
May 20, 2007, 01:58 AM
Any pistol ammo is made to stop man attack. Stopping bear or puma is a whole different story. I am camping in Wisconsin and south IL and always I am more worried about hog than bear attack.
May 20, 2007, 03:51 AM
Puma, 10mm would kick the crap out of one..
I'm from Vancouver Island BC, very high concentration of Black bears and Cougars/Puma/mountain lions, one guy killed one with his pocket knife, sure he looks like hell now but you can do it.
The Ministry of environment used to carry S&W .357 magnum then they transitioned to .40 S&W Glocks, also carried 12 gage for bush work.
May 20, 2007, 04:06 AM
A Glock 20 is a good choice for the woods in my opinion.
May 20, 2007, 07:27 PM
Puma/Mt. Lion are very very easily hurt and diswaded. Any pistol caliber that will turn a human (22 LR and up) will turn a Mt. lion.
May 20, 2007, 07:33 PM
Are you honestly trying to suggest that the Taylor KO formula is better than actual testing? That is one man's guess at how effective large caliber rifles are for elephant hunting.It wasn't even meant to be that. It was called the Knock-Out factor for a reason. It was Taylor's way of estimating how long an elephant would stay unconscious from a shot to the skull that didn't hit the brain.
Like you, I don't understand how a formula meant to estimate the effect of shock transmission through bone by a bullet strike from an elephant gun could be reasonably thought to apply to estimating the degree of soft tissue injury from a handgun bullet.
Here's one comment Taylor made about it.
"In dense bush it is all too frequently impossible to do anything but knock the elephant down with a head shot, which you know cannot possibly find the brain, and then tear your way through the bush in the hope that you will be there in time to finish him off before he gathers his wits together sufficiently to do anything about it. ... As I have alread pointed out, over 60 Knock-Out values are necessary to stun an elephant for anything up to five minutes or so, depending upon how close to the brain you hit him; the .500s will knock him out for possibly 20 minutes; and the .600 for anything up to half an hour."
May 21, 2007, 02:13 AM
The Taylor KO Factor is just momentum times bullet diameter.
It's like considering a tube of damage whose length comes from
penetration with a diameter dictated by bullet size.
To me, it's a crude model of a wound channel.
May 21, 2007, 10:24 AM
I'm not into using mathmatical formulas in order to understand how effective a given cartridge MAY be on an animal, but if some one is going to use a mathmatical formula, the Taylor KO formula is much better than the energy formula. As quoted in the last paragraph in your post, the kO formula was developed through testing on African game. The energy formula, on the other hand, is purely a mathmatic formula that has more gross errors in it than the KO formula--when it comes to considering its effectiveness on BIG GAME. Effectiveness on humans (not big game) is yet another matter.
Cocked & Locked
May 21, 2007, 11:14 AM
I don't know what the bear issue is in NC, but here in Southern New England, they are more of a pest than a threat.
think about the words below...the issue can be big!
Quote from www.blackbear.org "Adult Weights: Wild male black bears of breeding age usually weigh between 125 and 500 pounds, depending upon age, season, and food. Very well fed bears can be heavier. The record is 880 pounds in Craven County, North Carolina, and a close second from northeastern Minnesota weighed 876 pounds on September 5, 1994. Wild females usually weigh between 90 and 300 pounds with the heaviest known female weighing 520 pounds in northeastern Minnesota on August 30, 1993. Black bears in captivity may exceed these records."
May 22, 2007, 09:20 AM
The G20 is a great woods gun. Although its large, it carries 15 very powerful round. I like winchester silver tip but Double tap is supposed to be better. The gun is flat and easy to conceal and impervious to the elements.
You will be well armed with that gun.
But the truth is I never use mine unless I'mm actually hunting pigs. My usual carry gun when out in the Florida swamps is usually a G26. Although an attack by a pig, bear, panther or alligator is always a possibility, I've never had a problem with any of the except for a small gator continually harassing my bobber and bait.
Other people is what I worry about.
May 22, 2007, 09:30 AM
The Double tap 100mm 200 grain at 1300 FPS almost equals the Hornady 44 magnum load out of a 4 inch 44 revolver. Think about 16 more controllable rounds in a lighter package compared to 6 in a much heavier weight and reoiling gun in the revolver (Unless you want to go to lighter scandium, which does hurt after the first cylinder of 44 mags)
May 22, 2007, 09:59 PM
Ask Ted Nugent - I understand that is what he carries. The Glock 20 does have a thick grip - if you have a larger than normal hand, it's not a problem.
May 23, 2007, 01:37 AM
I'm not into using mathmatical formulas in order to understand how effective a given cartridge MAY be on an animal...I stayed with you that far... ;)
TKO has become popular because it supported the views & theories of various people influential in the firearms community. That's about it. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some level of correlation to firearm effectiveness since it's a sort of messed up momentum calculation and we know that momentum can be scientifically correlated with penetration. The problem is that it's not scientific, it's not being used for what the originator intended, and the addition of the diameter factor clearly produces unrealistic results in some cases. I'm sure we're all aware of how the TKO factor "proves" that a thrown baseball is far more effective on game than a pistol round.
May 23, 2007, 03:45 AM
think about the words below...the issue can be big!
Yeah so what. I was discussing the bear problem where I live, in Southern New England not NC. We do not see large bears around here. Maybe 300lbs max, which is still a big animal and very dangerous. If one lives in a area with a large bear population pack accordingly.
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