[saands]

Johnny Guest:

I think that your idea of a cut and paste disclaimer is a GREAT one ... There is something to be learned from deviations that are made from recipes, but as many readers are just starting out in this artful science, we all have a duty to let people know when we are operating outside of the manual's range.

I'd like to suggest that this warning (or a similar one) be used WHENEVER someone is operating outside of documented recipes in any way, not just on the heavy charge side. There have been many issues associated with loads that are too light (the mysterious "detonation" and the common "bullet stuck in the barrel" trick) and even bullets of different lengths, materials, etc. that might not be as stable as they should be ...

Just some thoughts,

Saands

[Johnny Guest]

You make a very good point, saands.

I was remiss in not noting that very aspect of "outside the envelope" loading. My own experience doesn't include this type load, but that doesn't excuse my forgetting it. Seldom a day passes that I'm not reading something in a manual or manufacturer's booklet, and I certainly have seen their cautions. I've gone back and edited the float to add this concern..

I appreciate you pointing it out.

Best,
Johnny

[Desert Dog]

Along this same line, we need to keep in mind that no two guns are the same.

I may have this thunderboomen nuke load that shoots fine in my masterblaster, but it may damage your masterblaster if you shoot them in it, even if it is the same model masterblaster...

I try to refrain from publishing load data here, because I DO like to push bigger bullets faster, in MY guns.

My opinion is if the data exceeds SAAMI or published load data from the manufacturers, then it does not need to be on this board. Personal E-mails are the avenue for giving someone this type of info.

Johnny, do you agree?

Mike

[Steve Smith]

Despite my mod title, I'm just posting as a member.

I think being able to post over-SAAMI loads here is fine...a LOT of us play in that world. But I think having to post a disclaimer on your loads is important.

Johnny's house, he makes the rules.

[Mike Irwin]

I've got a very simple approach to the solution...

Any of my loads that are over known book loads I don't share.

With anyone.

[Johnny Guest]

Desert Dog - - I fully agree that each firearm is different. Even identical, consecutively-numbered S&W 686 revolvers may differ somewhat. You work up your absolute max load in Albuquerque in the February snows, and then I try to shoot it at 400 ft. elevation under a Texas sun in August :eek: - - - The differences are farther accentuated.

You wrote: My opinion is if the data exceeds SAAMI or published load data from the manufacturers, then it does not need to be on this board. DD, I agree to some extent, being hesitant to post my own warmish loads. At the same time, I feel we should allow for academic discussion within certain bounds. We’re getting into the area of philosophy here-- The concept of censorship amongst adults is repugnant to me, but most agree that there are limits set by good judgment and courtesy. No foul language in polite company, don’t shout “FIRE” in a crowded theatre, etc. Balancing free expression and a rational exchange of ideas against possible hazard is the reason for the forum limits on posting extraordinary loads. With due notice being given and a sane presentation, I believe we can tolerate such discussion. I hasten to note that Steve Smith and Mike Irwin, both of whose opinions I respect highly, have differing thoughts on this subject.

As a “for instance” - - -
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
- - - I bought a 1926 Military .44 Special in the mid 1960s and worked up a load with a 255 gas check SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique. I have shot thousands of this very load over the years, in S&Ws, Colts, Rugers, and a hapless Charter Bulldog. (DON’T do this latter! It hurts.) Never a problem in two Colt Single Action Armies and a New Service, nor in various magnums.

I later realized that most manuals showed lower charge weights of Unique. The 7.5 load was mentioned mostly in magazine articles, and only in one OLD manual. Checking modern manuals, it seems scary. But - - - if the S&W model 24 .44 Spl uses the same N-frame as the model 29 in .44 magnum, can’t you use loads at least approaching the pressure levels of the mags? Same with the L frame - - strong enough to take the hottest .357 mag loads, so why not use hotter .44 Spl loads in the mods 296 and 696? But it would be irresponsible of me to post, “My favorite .44 Spl load is a 255 cast GC SWC over 7.5 gr of Unique,” without some clarification and warnings. A simple caution that this is okay in MY revolver but warning that the load exceeds published maximums should place people on notice. In fact, I should point out that I shoot it only in magnums and in a Colt New Service, and that I’m beginning to have second thoughts about the latter. Perhaps 7.0 gr would be better. ;)

In any case, I hope that NO reader settles on ANY load on the basis of a single suggestion or reference. Errors DO occur. We should always second source TM our loads.

Best,
Johnny

[Steve Smith]

I really don't know what to do here. Seems to me that part of handloading is learning about efficiency. Some hot loads are beneficial, and others result in a waste of powder and bullets. As my friend John Taffin would say, if you are pushing hard, you should go up in caliber. Learning the real balance point of cartridge efficiency makes a difference. For example, you can follow SAAMI and believe that the .45 Colt is just an expensive version of a .45 acp. OR, you can throw a little more steel around your case and find a safe point where the cartridge can do no more work, but gives all she can. That's what handloading is all about. Imagine a HP newbie asking about 600 yard .223 loads. You can't learn that from a reloading book. It would be like trying to make Dr. Pepper with a child's chemistry set. I can tell someone right quick what loads oughtta work and what powders work best in what temps and what primer will blow with what load and why and things to look out for, and I can still keep the kid from blowing his head off by telling him to drop my load 10 or 15% and to be careful. Its a good start for him. I leaned on folks a lot when I got started and I still do...only now, someone else is leaning on me at the same time.

Maybe I'm relying on other folk's common sense a little too much, but it seems like common sense to me.

[Johnny Guest]

And I LOVE your new sig line.Ooh, eee, ooh ahh ahh, ting tang, walla walla bing bang (WHAT was it you told that aboriginal physician??)

Best,
Johnny

[Clark]

Here is what I did today:
I experimented with the 7.62x25mm Tokarev with Power Pistol and 110 gr bullets.
There is no SAAMI pressure spec for the 7.62x25mm Tokarev.
There are no published loads for this cartridge and Power Pistol.

But I have a feeling that this post violates the spirit of some of the above suggestions. What is the dichotomy that divides us on a spectrum and makes this post controversial?
Freedom is tolerating what you don't like.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=336143

[Grump]

DISCLAIMER--Contains load data well in excess of SAAMI specifications and SHOULD NOT BE DUPLICATED.

I love reading the results of Clark's destructive testing. I even want to know what velocities he got just before case failure (that's the usual limit, ya know...).

BUT I have no intentions of duplicating them! Some things are pretty obvious to those with ordinary intelligence. The Darwin candidates typically ignore warnings anyway, so I'm okay with overloads being published with disclaimers to protect ME from using it!.

For example: I misunderstood the old notes on a fixed powder measure one day and loaded 9 grains of Unique under a Speer 146-gr SWCJHP in .357 Magnum. Good thing I was shooting an N-frame Smith. Sticky cases.

I absolutely do NOT care that such an overload might maybe possibly never blow up an N-frame. It might not maybe possibly never blow an L frame. I wouldn't risk using it regularly in a K frame and there's no way I would EVER try it in a J frame. These guns don't need to be designed to handle a regular diet of rifle-plus pressure loads, so it's dumbdumbdumb to use up all of your safety margin and all nine of your lives.

But scientific (or semi-scientific) tests can be reported. :D

My protection while the angels sang (tribute to the late Phil Sharpe) came from mixing up the light-load .45-70 powder drum with the 6-grain .357 Magnum powder drum. NEVER AGAIN!

Interestingly enough, those overloads had only the smallest amount of dull red muzzle and cylinder flash.:eek: ...in the dead of night. The jackrabbits ran safely that night.

edited to fix the EEK!

[Steve Smith]

Actually, it was a witchdoctor!

;)

[Mike Irwin]

Johnny,

Steve and I really don't differ in our opinions.

I think posting loads over book max, as long as the proper warnings accompany those loads, are fine.

He and I agree on that.

However, I'm not going to post the "max+" loads that I've developed -- that's my personal preference and protection.


Personally, I like this warning...

"DANGER, YOU IDIOT! This load has the potential to turn your gun, and YOU, into so many chunky bits! It is NOT recommended for the family heirloom that great-great-great-great-great-great grandpappy carried when he was dueling immigrants as a member of The Gangs of New York, nor is it recommended that you run it through that P.O.S piece of pot metal that you took from the former owner after that little "property rights discussion" you had over who owned the street corner, and by extension, access to the trade thereon, when you put yourself through college by selling crack to ho's..."

[WYO]

Mike, I really like the warning. It kind of reminds me of the earlier version of the warning for the show Jackass. But, at the same time, we must remember that idiots are still jumping off the roofs of buildings and missing the swimming pool, even though they've been warned and told that MTV won't open up the packages containing their home videos. :)

[Mike Irwin]

I'm personally fond of the reports of people setting themselves on fire trying to emulate the Jackass stuff.

[Mannlicher]

There is very little load data that is safe in every gun that chambers the cartridge in question.

No one should hand load at all, if they are not of the mind to slowly build up their max loads.

I like to think we are all adults, and that we will exercise due, and prudent care. Of course, this is not true, as exemplified by the number of bozos that destroy both gun and body each year. You cannot protect these folks from theirselves.

Load data is only as safe in your gun, as you make it to be. Putting in a disclaimer about the amount of powder in your recipe is fine, but what about an admonition to check for season cracks, enlarged primer pockets, bulged cases, high primers, etc. What about checking each case to see if it has been double charged? See what I mean? Maybe we should not share hand load data at all, if we don't think our fellows can load safely.

[braindead0]

How about when the published load data is incorrect? AA was using 35,000CUP for last years .357 loads, they have since fixed it to the proper 45,000CUP (somewhere around October of 2002).

This could lead someone to believe that a particular load is overpressure when it is not.

Just a thought.... I never give out loading data that isn't from a book (and usually try to quote the exact book or source if it's handy).

[Clark]

Here is a better pictuer that shows the "Smiley Face" of the feed ramp case bulge in the above case.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=344607

[Desert Dog]

Clark, I certainly hope you do your testing as safe as humanly possible, because I have been amazed by some of your data and pictures.

I am just the paranoid type, and am very wary of posting data that could potentially remove certain individuals from the gene pool pre-maturely.

I have posted hot loads here before, and I continue to try to achieve self-imposed benchmarks:

Accurate, supersonic .45 ACP FMJ - Done

Accurate, 300+ grain .45 Colt @2000 FPS (Puma 454) - getting there. Current loading is moving a 335 @1700. Accurate as he!!. This is to be my "North American" game load...

.357 laser beam load - 10.0 grains of AA#7/125gr Mid-Kansas FP. This load is the most accurate centerfire loading I have ever come up with. Out of a SP101- 2 1/4" no less. Exact POA with the little revolver.

I guess the main questionI have after posting above, is how much culpability would there be for this board and myself, if a junior woodchuck blows his hand off using load data acquired here? Could you be served up in a lawsuit because some idiot is looking for "compensation".

Mike

[WYO]

I think it would take an incredibly stupid jury to give a plaintiff money who claimed injury because he relied to his detriment on the advice of "Desert Dog from the Internet."

[braindead0]

They give huge awards to criminals who are injured in while perpetrating a crime... happens all the time.

[larryw]

IMO, "incredibly stupid jury" is typically a redundant statement. I'm with Mike, if its over SAMMI, I won't share it.