[Wade]

I have a KelTec Sub2000 for home defense. I've been thinking about adding either a laser sight or light (Surefire, etc). Opinions?

[benEzra]

My personal preference would be a good light. Long guns are very "pointable" at inside-the-house range, so the laser doesn't give you much in added precision, but the light can blind an assailant and also serves as one last check of target ID. I don't know if this means anything, but most SWAT and HRT guys seem to have lights on their longarms rather than lasers.

[jem375]

Only in the movies do they put flashlights on their handguns or long guns......makes a great target.........you hesitate to make sure, they don't..............

[boing]

Light. No sense lasing a target you can't identify.

[WYO]

I agree with benEzra.

[SapperLeader]

that outside of military/law enforcement, the only area I see them shining in usefulness is on a handgun being fired from a awkward position. By this I mean If you are already on the ground, firing from the hip, or injured with your dominant hand. Some situation where your normal firing stance is not possible. Lights though, Lights on the other hand allow you to see which noise is a neighbors cat or a junkie on crack looking for some loot. Most importantly, is it a friend or loved one making noise downstairs, or the already mentioned junkie. I recently purchased a surfire weapons light for my 870, and highly recommend a designated weapons light for any home defense/self defense longarms wether they be carbines, rifles or shotguns.

[Kestryll]

Only in the movies do they put flashlights on their handguns or long guns......makes a great target.........you hesitate to make sure, they don't..............

This guy should be the real deal and his weapon is sporting a light.

http://www.chrononhotonthologos.com/lawnotes/elian.jpg

[El Tejon]

Hey, I've never been in the movies (although I should be, I'm just that good looking:p) and my bedside 870 wears a light. You think it's just all my skuling and the fact that I've seen real bad consequences to violations of Rule #4?

Nah, must be the movies.:D

[Mr. Black]

Lasers are for mall ninjas.

Hey, where'd my laser go? Darn spot of light.

Oh, I have to aim the gun to find it!

[Andrew Wyatt]

My shotgun has a light on it, the local PD's shotguns and submachineguns all have lights on them.


Lights are way, way more useful than a laser is. get a light.

[yzguy]

for a long gun I would say a light but one with a momentary on switch that you can press with your normal hold on it...

my 870 has a light on it
my 1911 has laser grips and a light next to it.

I would not want either that took any steps to activate other than normal grip (no extra switches, or levers to remember).

[jem375]

Kestry11......don't look as if the light is on...........and it's real tough to go in and grab a little kid like they did in Florida, they probably could have left it on in that situation........

[jem375]

interesting comments......I guess the only thing to say is each person to his own thing..........If you want to give away your position, be my guest.....

[Andrew Wyatt]

interesting comments......I guess the only thing to say is each person to his own thing..........If you want to give away your position, be my guest.....


I guess we figure that giving away our position by shining a 120 lumen flashlight in someone's dark adapted eyes (and making them effectively blind) is better than accidently shooting a family member.

[444]

Not to mention of course that when you are giving away your position, you are pointing a rifle at them.
Professionals the world over from Special Forces to police use weapons lights. A light is a very good, possibly essential piece of hardware. You can use a handheld light for shooting, but it is much harder. If time permits, I would also take a handheld flashlight .

[benEzra]

QUOTE]Only in the movies do they put flashlights on their handguns or long guns[/QUOTE]
If you look at photos of the elite French gendarmes that pulled off the successful raid on the Airbus A320 that was hijacked by Algerian terrorists, you'll see lights on the MP5s. (There was one on the cover of SOF that year, I remember.)

[Smoke]

Get a light. Get a good light. Doesn't have to be mounted on your gun.

Get a cheap laser pointer at the local dime store. Duct tape it to your gun. Try to point it reliably at a target. Rip ducttape off and throw laser in the trash. Thank me for saving you money on a overpriced gimmic.

[Wade]

Ok, you've all convinced me to skip the laser and "see the light."

Now, how about some suggestions on which light to get. I've got a picatinny rail ordered, so a light with mount would be preferable.

[444]

There is only one light to get.

Surefire

[jem375]

these guys are trained to use lights if they have them on their weapons, the average guy isn't.........most PD's and Swat teams do not use lights, and there is a reason for it..........

[Andrew Wyatt]

I learned the harries flashlight technique from harries himself, and my nightfighting skills from andy stanford. I'm plenty qualified to say that a flashlight is a good idea to have on a longarm.

[El Tejon]

jem, I have studied under many different instructors, all of whom have stressed Rule #4. Many skuls offer low light/night shooting only. At no time has the instructor told us not to bring a flashlight and rely on prayer or The Force to identify our target.

Could you please tell me who is telling you to ignore Rule #4? What instructors have you been to that are teaching that?:confused:

[yzguy]

to all those who worry about giving away position,
those who are recommending a light (like me) are not saying to walk around with it on all the time!! You can only turn it on when you need it, but if you don't have one and need it, you are SOL!!

it's dark, and you find yourself behind someone in your house, if you have a light you can turn it on then before firing (because hey, firing gives your position away just as well as a light) to be 100% sure BEFORE pulling the trigger....

just my .02

[Art Eatman]

Lord help us! Folks who get to barking and growling over this sort of small beer oughta stick to cap pistols! Real guns are for grownups...

:(, Art

[jem375]

El Tejon.......by this time you should know who is in your house concerning rule#4, which you seem to bring up all the time.....how about the rule about pointing a loaded firearm at someone?......and of course you think the bad guy is not going to hear you fumbling around with the gun and light attachment.....but, then again I don't use a rifle or shotgun for home defense, just a S&W Model 66 357 mag and a Witness 10MM compact, so, I will just bail out of this argument and let everyone just do their own thing.....

[ShaiVong]

Like somebody brought out before; if you have it and dont need it, then dont use it. If dont have it then need it your SOL. It cant be all that bad.

[curt]

I don't even load my SG, i'm afraid it might go off and give away my position! Instead i wear camo to bed and plan to hide in the dark pumping my shotgun so the sound will make them flee in fear.

[Andrew Wyatt]

by this time you should know who is in your house concerning rule#4, which you seem to bring up all the time.....how about the rule about pointing a loaded firearm at someone?

"do not point your weapon at that you do not intend to destroy"

I don't see how that's inconsistent with drawing down on someone in your house.

[El Tejon]

Art, The Four Rules are never small beer. The Four Rules of firearms safety are life; those who disregard them or encourage others to disregard them are awaiting disaster.

Personally I've been involved with a couple of real nasty mistaken shoots--UPS guy and drunk 15 year old neighbor girl. Your house is not a free fire zone, despite what you read in the gun rags or hear at the gun shoppe. It is vital that you identify any potential threat as a threat. It is a keystone of gun safety and gun safety is the high road. :)

[Mr. Black]

You can't handle a long gun and a seperate light at the same time. (Oh, you say you can; especially a pump gun, okay rambo)

You might need a flashlight.

You don't have to turn on the flashlight if you don't want to .

Except for the weight, having a flashlight on a gun is never a bad idea; even if you don't use it.

[El Tejon]

Mr. Black, you can, but only with skill through the effort of training.:) But, I'm like you, I like my on the weapon just the same.

jem, pardon me, but you still did not relate which one of your instructors is telling you to ignore Rule #4. Could you please tell us. Maybe in certain environments or situations?:confused:

[jem375]

Andrew....was referring to kids, relatives, and etc.......just tape a lamp to your rifle or shotgun, even better than a flashlight, that would light up the entire room and make identification even easier....lol

[Andrew Wyatt]

I recieved my first training on how to use a light with a gun when I was the tender age of 11. when i have children and a wife, they will learn how to use a light with a gun, too. If you have a situation where a family member has substandard training on how to use a firearm in the situation they're in, you've done screwed up.

Basically, what i'm saying is that the training levels of your wife and kids (any old enough to defend the home) won't be an issue, because if you 're squared away to any degree, they know how to use the HD gun(s) anyway.

[Matt_B]

If you want to use a light with a rifle, you have to have it on the rifle. There's no good way (that I'm aware of at least) to handle a rifle and light at the same time.

If you want to use a light with a pistol, you can either get a separate handheld or mount it on the pistol. There are pros and cons to both methods. Of course you could always mount a light on your weapon and get a separate handheld. Never hurts to have a backup.

A light definitely has it's place in home defense. You have to know what you might be or are about to shoot at. Too many home defense situations have resulted in needless tragedy because the shooter did not ID their target.

That being said, you need a light with a momentary switch and, if at all possible, a constant on switch as well.

For those of us that have seen Surefire lights, we know how bright they can. The 65 lumen lights will blind someone in the dark. The 125 lumen and up are searing. That's one thing some people forget about. Using a light to ID your target is one part of the equation. The other part is using a very bright light (sure, Mag lights aren't as good as Surefires) to temporarily blind your target and give you the advantage. That's one thing that Surefire stresses in both their products and training.

As for the lasers, as most have said, have limited use in specific applications where you can use your sights or optic. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have (better to have and not need than to not have and need) but a laser won't replace a light or a good sight picture.

One last thing. If you're going to get a weapon light that you may have to depend on for your life, get a Surefire. They aren't cheap but neither is your life.

[Art Eatman]

El Tejon, I wuz talkin' about the issue of flashlight vs. laser. I've played with both, in various configurations and different plans for use. The efficacy of either will vary with particular situations or scenarios, like so much of the stuff discussed at THR.

Small beer.

Art

[El Tejon]

Art, small beer? Perhaps, but it is small beer that leads to the tavern of Tactical Truth.

A young brasshopper makes inquiry into the matter and discovers that lasers are (with few exceptions) feckless and silly as well he discovers that identifying his target is a must do. Small streams turn to rivers turn to the ocean.:)

[Art Eatman]

:D

Back in '81 (ahright, 1981) I managed a nightclub in Austintatious. I'd exit through the back door after closing time, into our parking lot. Potential for Bad Guy trouble in back alley, etc.

Receipts in briefcase; Streamlight SL 20 and briefcase handle in left hand. Right hand on 1911 in hip pocket.

One night I saw movement in the shadows and punched the button on the SL. Had to apologize to a harmless walking-along fella, who was so blinded he fell down on the uneven parking lot. High intensity flashlights are Good Things.

I mounted a laser dealie on the trigger guard of a 1911; it had a squeeze switch. I got it reasonably well sighted in for fifteen yards or so.

For shooting at night, I think the combination of a very bright flashlight and the laser pointing would work okay. You'd have target ID before covering the target, as far as safety goes. It does take a bit of practice to put the laser on target.

I think that good tactics would call for a brief shine of the light and then move aside a step or so--and then quickly light up, acquire target, and shoot if necessary.

I can hold the SL alongside the forearm of a rifle or shotgun and easily acquire a target--as several coyotes and feral pests have discovered...

Either/or? I'd take the flashlight...

:), Art