[NoirFan]

Hello all,

I will soon start reloading, and have been saving a goodly pile of .38 special brass, mostly cheap Winchester Wal-Mart. Based on the different commercial loads I have fired, I have determined that my ideal practice load is 158 grains moving at 1000-1100 FPS, but I have a few beginner questions:

At this speed will bare lead bullets foul your barrel?

Will .38 brass stand up to this load? Specifically, cheap Winchester bulk brass.

Preferred recipe for achieving this formula?
- Powder
- Bullet type
- Case brand

Any other tips?

This load will be fired from a 4” M19.

Thanks!

[JoeHatley]

Yes, leading is a possibility at 1000 --> 1100 fps. It wil depend on bullet/barrel quality.

It would take a pretty stiff +P load to even get to the lower speed in a 4" barrel. 900 fps is easily do-able with +P, but 1000+ fps is a bit close to the edge, especially in a K frame.

If you really need 158 grains at that speed, buy some .357 mag brass. It can get there pretty easy.

Good Luck....

Joe

[Walkalong]

Some Universal Clays can do it easily with the 158 grainers in .357 Mag brass.

Others as well, I just like Universal. :)

[Bula]

Try the Lasercast 158 gr swc. You should be ok at the 1000-1100 fps mark.
You'll be safe pushing plated lead that fast too. They're not much more $ than good hardcast stuff.

[robertbank]

Go with the .357 brass. The LSWC isn't really a boolit I would push to that speed anyway but if you do make sure you are using the right kind of lube or you likely will get some leading.

Take Care

Bob

[ChristopherG]

At this speed will bare lead bullets foul your barrel?

Very, very likely. I'd use either plated bulllets or bulk jacketed (like Remington SJHP's, which are pretty inexpensive through Midwayusa and a respectable if old-fashioned bulllet, to boot)

Will .38 brass stand up to this load? Specifically, cheap Winchester bulk brass.

Yes. In the fully supported chamber of a .357, the strength of your brass is not likely to become an issue--though you should look at it carefully as you build your load upward from published standards for .38's. I.e., start at the bottom or midpoint of the recommended loads for your bullet weight and powder, for a .38, and work upward by .2 grains or so, checking at each step of the way for pressure signs on the brass and fired primers. I would not expect any problems because you're working so far below the capacity of the gun.

Preferred recipe for achieving this formula?
- Powder
- Bullet type
- Case brand

Iff'n it were me, it'd be:
Universal Clays
Remington 158 SJHP
Starline (though in reality, I'd use some of the tons of mixed .38 I've got lying around)

And, if you want to actually know your velocity, there's no way to be even reliably close without a chronograph.

[sargenv]

Something no one has mentioned is Moly coated lead bullets. I use the ones available from Bear Creek, but Precision, Billy Bullets, and Master Blaster all make similar bullets. They are lead bullets with a thin layer of Moly-disulfide or other similar coating that helps to keep the bullets from leading. I have been using various weights of Moly coated bullets from Bear creek for several years. Last year I made some major power factor loads (IPSC) using 140 gr RN bullets in my 610. I was loading them with a good amount of power pistol and they were pushing approx 1350 fps with no leading evident. I have since changed my load to a minor load since I can recover quicker and be on target faster.

My current load uses either 231 or Ramshot competition and puts the 140's out of my 6.5" 610 at approx 950 fps. I have a load that I'm using for 38 special minor out of my 5" 627 that utilizes 158 gr round nose bear creeks at approx 850 fps. I have used the bear creeks for heavier loads in the past and pushed them to approx 1100 fps in my 6" GP100. No leading was evident. You need to make sure you have enough flare on the brass so as not to scrape the coating off.

I've had trouble using plated bullets in that if you crimp them too much they will tumble. Currently I stick to using the moly coated stuff since it is about as cheap as plain lead cast with the benefits of no leading similar to jacketed.

Vince

[Oohrah]

Use 158 gr swc and use 2400 loaded to close to that in a
4" Mod 28 Smith without leading problems!:)

[CZ57]

Use hard cast lead bullets and not swaged and you're not likely to have any leading issues for that velocity and then some unless you have some other issues that you'll have to address. Don't worry about it unless there is a significant lead buildup. This is an issue that gets overemphasized a bit, IMO. If you go with a good and fairly hard bullet of .358" diameter, I doubt you'll have any problem. Anything 15 Brinnell or harder will be fine. Most commercial bullets are cast to a hardness around 18 BHN and Oregon Trails rate theirs very hard at 26.

As far as powder, I would tend to go a little slower in burn rate to get velocity 1000 FPS or higher, but that depends on the data you have and how much muzzle flash is acceptable to you. You're probably not talking about a defense load here, and that gives you a bit more flexibilty in powder selection, if you want minimum flash, one of the medium slow ball powders is a good choice. I use Vihta Vouri 3N37 for this type of loading and N350 will work about the same depending on the data you have. Blue Dot will push a 158 to over 1000 FPS but it will flash. Most flake powders will at this velocity and you can't take load booklet velocity as gospel either. Many of the loads that say they achieve 1000 FPS from a 4" barrel may or may not actually get there.

You have a bit more flexibility in shooting these loads from a .357 Magnum and one thing I do for specific situations (Snubs with short ejector rods and 7 shot .357 Magnum revolvers) is to trim .357 Magnum brass to .38 Special length to build a load I call the Short Magnum. Since you have a good deal of .38 Special brass, this isn't likely to be something you want to do because of the time factor involved.;)

[Sistema1927]

I am a bit confused. :confused:

What assurance do you have that you will be able to obtain any sort of acceptable accuracy pushing your bullet at that speed out of your firearm(s)?

it would appear to me that you have the cart before the horse. In my 30+ years of reloading experience I have consistently found that I achieve the best accuracy (especially in .38 Special) long before I approach the top of the loading charts.

A slow(er) hit beats a fast(er) miss, every time.

[CZ57]

There are external factors that apply, although you're probably addressing the question to Noir Fan. Powder selection is definitely one of them and how a shooter deals with recoil is often deemphasized in accuracy always coming at lower velocity. Maybe the load is for a coup de grace revolver for the field, or hunting smaller game. I certainly didn't perceive that it was intended for Bullseye shooting, but I have found some loads very accurate when executed properly.;)

Also, unless I've missed it I'll add that Winchester brass is very good brass. WWB ammo uses the same brass as most other Winchester factory loads except that you will run across a WCC case or two in WWB loads for autopistols.

[Walkalong]

158 GR. CAST LSWC .358" Universal Clays O.A.L. 1.610" / 4.0 890 15,700 CUP / 6.2 1247 33,400 CUP

From Hodgdon's website.

I think this will get you where you want to be. I use Universal for medium loads in .357 brass and it works well. I like 700 X for .38 Spl. type loads in .357 brass, although I plan to try some N320 as well.

I would suggest you start at 5.8 Grs. and work up. :)

[RecoilRob]

Welcome to THR NoirFan!

Lots of good info given to you so far, but I'd like to offer a suggestion: Stick to published 38 Special loads in those 38 cases.

Yes, you CAN load them hotter for use in a .357. But, can you be sure that they will ALWAYS be used in one? A 38K CUP load that is safe in a 357 could certainly wreck a 38 pistol if it should happen to make its' way into it.

+P Specials are able to push 158's to 950fps or so....and that is where I would stop. Even then, the load would be really hard on some pistols not made to take +P's, but unlikely to cause a spontaneous disassembly.

If in doubt, caution is always the prudent choice when it comes to loading your own. Be careful.

[GP100man]

a good load ive developed in the 38 is 2.5gr clays under a158 gr home cast lee rnfp boolit lubed with white label lubes carnauba red lube.
in the 357 same boolit with 16gr. h110 groups good at 50yds
dont know how fast they go ,but do what i ask of them,also i never shoot spec. in a mag revolver!!

GP100man

[NoirFan]

Hello all,

Thanks for all the replies. Since I am new to handloading I will definitely stick to published loads for the foreseeable future... this was just throwing the idea out there to see if it was safely possible.

As for my reasons for wanting such a load... in terms of recoil the low-velocity .357 magnum loads are my favorite rounds for casual target shooting. Enough recoil to let you know you've shot a gun, not enough to sting or ache. I wanted to see if I could load .38 spl brass (just because I have a ton of it) to approximate that recoil. So yeah... it's not for competitions or serious shooting.

Any more advice is welcome!

[CZ57]

Absolutely! Stick to published load data. I mentioned the short magnum to illustrate the fact that I have done this type of loading with .357 Magnum revolvers and the types of powders that are better suited to it. It may depend on the data you have, and asking a .38 Special to produce velocity 1000 FPS or higher with a 158 gr. bullet will narrow your powder selection to just a few. Then other considerations have to be weighed such as how much muzzleblast is acceptable, or if it is a non issue. The maximum average pressure for the .38 Special has been lowered by SAAMI in recent years and part of the reason is smaller and imported revolvers. These limitations are not necessary to impose on .38 Special that will be fired in a .357 Magnum revolver, but you may have to find an older data source for the type of loads you want. If your data shows loads with powders like Power Pistol, possibly HS-6, WAP or Silhouette are capable if you have data, WSF if data is provided, V-V 3N37, AA#7, Longshot is a possibility, V-V N350, V-V 3N38, Blue Dot, AA#9 or Ramshot Enforcer which their ballistician could help you with as well as for AA#7 & 9 if you can't find data. You can e-mail through their website: http://www.ramshot.com/powders/ ;)

Here's an article you may find interesting: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0605/

And I didn't mention that I have had more than a little experience in shooting these loads in a S&W 19-4 with a 4" barrel.

[Steve C]

NloirFan, welcome to the forum.

As others have said 1,000 fps from a .38 spl isn't realistic within current loading data at .38 spl pressures, even +P with a revolver of 4". You can get around 900 fps from a 4" with +P level loads but a lot depends upon your pistol as velocity will vary a lot from gun to gun even with the same barrel length or of same make and model.

Years ago I loaded 5.5grs of Unique behind 158gr LSWC's in the .38 spl which was a load that listed as 950 fps in my Hornady Vol II circa 1973 manual, FYI 6.1grs was maximum. There was quite a bit of overlap between the .38 spl and .357 magnum in that manual. I shot these for years in various .357 mag's. Finally got a chronograph and found they where running 1,084 fps from my 4" M67. Now this pistol shoots everything 5 to 10% faster than any of my other 4" revolvers but this load is beyond the heavy side of most current load data by about 2/10ths grain. It would be fine in .357 magnum pistols and I usually load 6.0 to 6.5grs of Unique in mag cases behind 158gr cast bullets for .357 mag modest loads.

1,000 fps is right on the edge of where leading problems may start with swagged bullets because of too high a velocity and leading can occur using hard cast because of too little pressure to obdurate the bullet base enough to seal it in the bore. A lot will depend upon the individual gun.

I'd suggest buying both a box of 100 swagged bullets from Speer or Hornady and a bag of 100 hard cast bullet to try out before purchasing in larger lots. If the hard cast give you leading then you can up your pressure to full power and it will probably disappear or try applying some Lee Liquid Alox for additional lubrication. If you get excessive leading with the swagged then drop the charge down a bit but I've run Speers at 1,000 fps without leading.

Make sure you clean your pistol barrel well and get rid of any leading or copper fouling to begin with as this seems to accelerate lead accumulation in the barrel regardless of load or bullet type.

[bakert]

I always been leery of loading any kind of .357 loads in .38 Sp brass although I know a few people that do. Always worried that one of those type loads might somehow wind up in one of my .38s. Too easy to get 158 gr loads in the range you want with certain powders in .357 brass. One of my favorites is HS6 to get up to about the 1000 or a bit more velocity levels. Unique and Universal Clays should work well too.

[tasco 74]

1100 fps is about as fast as i'd care to go with any .38 spl load..... especially in a k frame smith..... like they said get some mag brass and load to mag level....... in my case i have more .38 spl brass than mag brass i do load some pretty hot but i shoot em in a model 27 n frame smith so i'm not all that worried about things coming apart when i shoot it...... a little over 1200 fps is as fast as i load .357 mag loads because it seems to be more accurate than any loads....... i use 150 gr swcs home cast from recovered indoor range lead and i do get a little leading but not so much i'll stop shooting em...........

[CZ57]

Guys, this a reason why I sometimes trim .357 magnum brass to .38 Special length. First off, the Short Magnum only gets used in .357 Magnum revolvers and also because the cartridges have a .357 Magnum headstamp. I get many requests for load data from guys that have .357 Magnum revolvers that have barrels 3" or under, short ejector rods, or seven shot cylinders that are susceptible to sticky extraction with ammo loaded in full length .357 Magnum cases. Powders have been True Blue, HS-6, V-V 3N37, AA#7, Vectan SP-2 and Blue Dot. Flash can be controlled with all of the velocity you're likely to need with a defense type load so long as it's not Blue Dot.

As far as .38 Special +P loads fired in .357 Magnum revolvers. I have no qualms whatsoever. A K-Frame Smith in .357 Magnum is more than capable and all K-Frame Smiths manufactured in the last 20 years in .38 Special, are +P rated.;)

[tasco 74]

........................................................................................................

[CZ57]

tasco74: why is that?

I don't recommend it for new reloaders, but since I haven't had a single issue after doing it about 15 years now, I'd like to know what you base your opinion on.

I started this to recreate a +P load that Cor-Bon made for years for my wifes 3" model 65 LadySmith. Cor-Bons load used a 115 gr. 9mm bullet in a .38 Special length case. I found it necessary to trim a .357 to get adequate tension on a 9mm bullet. I mostly use Rem 124 gr. JHPs because I get overstocked on them. Tell me what is you know that Cor-Bon and I don't?;)

[Walkalong]

I think it is a bad idea to suggest it online with a lot of new reloaders reading, at least not with a disclamer. I have to agree with Tasco on this one.

[Sunray]

Unique at max loads gives 1010fps too. That doesn't mean your M19 will like that load though.
"...trim .357 magnum brass to .38 Special length..." Waste of time. Just load .357 brass to .38 Special velocities. No ring of lube gunk to clean out either.

[CZ57]

WA: No data has been posted, hence no disclaimer. Obviously you guys are not familiar with the .41 Special load. Same thing done with the .41 Magnum.

Sunray: it may seem a waste of time to you, but there are valid reasons, you've just overlooked them. The most significant being ease of extraction in a snub defense revolver with a short ejector rod and faster speed loading. Not everyone shoots swaged wadcutters in their revolver. The whole purpose of buying a magnum revolver is to shoot a more powerful round.

I think I've mentioned in just about every post that these loads are only for .357 Magnum revolvers.

[Walkalong]

It's a shame we are so ignorant, or at least thats the way you talk to us. It is getting old. ;)

[Peter M. Eick]

Back on the original topic.

Noirfan,

Do a search on the 38/44 high speed or the 38/44 police special or even the 38/44 (but be forewarned, there is a 38/44 target round from the pre-1900's that might turn up). The 38/44 is in the SAME case as the 38 special.

The 38/44 was the original precursor to the 357 Magnum. There is loading data out there for the 38/44 that can easily do your requirements and is a lot of fun to shoot in the APPROPRIATE GUNS!.

I shoot my loads (mostly made with 2400) out of my 38/44 Heavy Duties and Outdoorsman's with no problems, but I would not use them in say a Detective special.

[CZ57]

Thank you! The type of load I'm talking about here is not as warm as the 38/44 and has the added insurance of proper identification for use in .357 Magnum revolvers only.

Noirfan: in reality, there should probably be separate data for warmer .38 Special loads to be fired in .357 Magnum revolvers, but if there were, many would find their way into .38 Special revolvers that are unsuitable.

The late Skeeter Skelton commonly used these types of loads and fired them in a S&W M19. Most of the time, he did it with Unique and they would be considered +P+ by today's standard. +P loads from an older manual like the SPEER #11 will not be detrimental to an M19. The choice of powder will be limited to those available around 1985.;)

[GRIZ22]

What you're trying to attain is more than factory +P+ loads. I chronographed Federal 147 gr +P+ in a 6" @ 940fps. If you really want a load like this (which is a slightly downloaded 357) I'd load it it 357 cases and use it in 357 guns only. Loading manuals will give you combinations to get this velocity in 357.

To get the performance you want in 38 is dangerous.

[CZ57]

GRIZ: I'm sure you're aware that chronographing and pressure testing are two totally different things. You don't know what powder FEDERAL used in the load, or even if it was truly above +P other than basing this purely on velocity. Do you know what the pressure rating for that +P+ load is? The SAAMI maximum average pressure for .38 Special +P is 18,500 PSI with +P+ running slightly higher, IF IN FACT, it is designating anything more than a higher velocity rating. It is not simply a slightly downloaded .357.

For everyone concerned: In the SPEER #11 which shows data that was around for a good many years without risk of people using dangerous loads, the pressure rating of .38 Special +P was 22,400 CUP. FOR .38 SPECIAL REVOLVERS. Noirfan's question asked about using .38 Special cases for loads in a .357 MAGNUM. The CUP rating uses a different pressure measurement, but in terms of PSI, it's higher than the current rating for +P+ and at a time when pressure for the .357 Magnum ran 46,000 CUP.

Some of you guys are casting an assumption that potentially dangerous advice is being dispensed here. And some of you are doing it while your facts could be a whole lot straighter. What is more dangerous for a new reloader? Explaining the correct method for building a higher performing load, or giving them misinformation?

Let's look at some of the advice so far. 1. Build these types of loads in full length cases. How about telling these guys how much unused case capacity their likely to encounter with propellants like Unique or something even faster burning? How many revolvers have been exploded because of a double charge of fast burning powder used in full length magnum cases.

If we're going to be blunt. I'll just state it exactly how I feel. Using Unique in a .357 Magnum case is about as useless as tits on a boar, IMO. Pressure will be unnecessarily high for the performance achieved and I've yet to see a Unique load at high pressure in a .357 Magnum case that couldn't easily be bettered in accuracy by using a more appropriate powder that gives better case fill and operates at much lower pressure.

VELOCITY DOES NOT EQUAL PRESSURE. But if you feel justified in recommending a powder that is likely to create maximum pressure in this case, it's kind of obvious that you're not aware that lower pressure can be achieved with an appropriate slower burning powder. The fact that some of you may not know how to go about this is obvious. But yet, you're dispensing advice that a new reloader may assume is expert advice.

As far as what's getting old to me is a guy that thinks he's established credibility with his knowledge of reloading based on his post count!