Jericho, effectiveness of hasty militias


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Lucky
May 4, 2007, 09:00 AM
Anyone watch that? It was pretty good.

I'm wondering about the end scene where they were handing out rifles to everyone without. I don't think I've ever had a rifle that I could shoot straight right away, they all needed to be zeroed. If a bunch of people are given a bunch of rifles they've never shot before, immediately before having to use them in combat, at what ranges could they be effective? I'm imagining they could harass out to 200 or 300m, but hitting targets would be another thing. At 100m even with a zeroed rifle it's easy to miss an 8x11" piece of paper if you're not careful. With an unfamiliar rifle, lots of stress, and a rifle that you don't actually know shoots straight or not, maybe 50m would be a reasonable distance to expect the militia to hit targets? Would that be a case where you see an authority telling them to hold fire until they can see the whites of the enemy's eyes?

In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?


Lastly, if they'd had a .50BMG rifle, at roughly what distance would a decent shooter have been able to put holes in the mortar tubes?


P.S. I like how there weren't sparks flying off everything that was hit!

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ilbob
May 4, 2007, 09:21 AM
I suspect such a group would be most valuable as defenders, if that. Just being able to put lead in the air in the general vicinity of the enemy probably is helpful. You are not going to get any useful offenseiv capability out of such a group.

personally, best bet in this kind of situation would be to go after the leadership of the enemy. cut off the head, and the rest of the snake is not all that dangerous.

bogie
May 4, 2007, 09:25 AM
If the enemy has his head down, he's not running toward you.

That's why I keep harping on the concept of the Bogardus Light Perimeter Defense Device.

1 old 0311
May 4, 2007, 09:28 AM
Well trained marksman can do a lot of damage to a larger force. Look at the American revolution, or the South in the Civil War.
Well trained marksman with combat experience would up your odds even more.

DogBonz
May 4, 2007, 09:32 AM
most off the shelf rifles will need their sights tweeked a little to get nice groups, but I think that most will still shoot minute of bad guy. Even if a rifle is shooting 4-5 moa at 100 yards thats 8-10 inches at 200 yards. Pick up a dinner plate (usually 9") and put it on your chest. I bet that there is still pleanty of you outside of that plate, right.

bogie
May 4, 2007, 09:37 AM
Oh, and if you're concerned about your people actually aiming, store a buncha shotguns and buckshot in your bunker. Yeah, I _know_ the effective range is maybe 50 yards. Would you wanna be hit by a buckshot ball, which started out at 1000 fps, at 100 yards?

Derek Zeanah
May 4, 2007, 09:38 AM
Good argument for optical sights -- you get away from the problems with different cheek welds.

30 cal slob
May 4, 2007, 09:41 AM
Derek - are you referring to "red dots?"

Derek Zeanah
May 4, 2007, 10:16 AM
Derek - are you referring to "red dots?"Sure. Or scout scopes. Or more traditional scopes.

Oleg Volk
May 4, 2007, 10:49 AM
The problem isn't marksmanship. The problem is lack of ability to maneuver together, lack or artillery and the inability to handle weapons fast enough for close combat. Militias seldom have effective medical corps, so most casualties would die. Lack of helmets and body armor means susceptibility to grenade and shell fragments. Lack of artillery is huge -- probing forces can retreat and pound any objective held by militia with impunity.

Militias work against mobs. They do not work against professional armies -- witness the fast demise of the Montenegro militia in the first days of WW1.

Boats
May 4, 2007, 10:50 AM
Jericho is both refreshingly cool and monumentally stupid at the same time.

Ex-military guys who don't take rifles into obvious rifle needed situations, like getting run off the road by raiders in an earlier episode and having exactly one shot back at the opposition vehicle from a 9mm handgun during the pursuit. WTFO?

Ex-military guys who defer to an idiotic mayor on strategic and tactical situations. Hizzoner Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey got most of his "Rangers" killed in an ambush in no small part aided by his use of an unsecure broadcast of radioed intel and orders. Morons.

A retired Marine who can't hold an unarmed truck driver at gunpoint. Oh yeah, and these guys are just as bad shots as the old A-Team for dramatic tension during offensive actions, and deadeyes when they need to absolutely fight out an escape during defensively oriented shootings.:rolleyes:

I like that the show is "post-apocalyptic" in nature and doesn't have much truck in pacifism, but it is too touchy-feely about survival issues and it is looking increasingly likely that the nuking of America on the show was an inside job that would make Rosie O twitter in delight.

The season finale had better pique my interest or the show won't get another chance from this viewer.

TallPine
May 4, 2007, 10:53 AM
Good argument for optical sights
Actually, I was thinking just the opposite. With a scope, unless it has been carefully zeroed, you have no idea where the dang thing is actually going to hit.

Open/iron sights are not quite so precise, but unless it has been damaged you can usually pick up any rifle and the windage will be right on. Might have to tweak the elevation a bit, but with those stepped-ramp rear sights that is quick and you can return to where it was real easy.

But assumes at least a somewhat capable rifleman - otherwise you might do better handing out pitchforks ;)

waynesan
May 4, 2007, 11:32 AM
Boats, I really like this show and it has really kept me interested so far. But like you I'm a little ticked at some of the goofy gunplay they've shown. This weeks episode with the shootout on the road must have had 1000 rounds fired before anyone was hit. And the scene where eight or ten guys all pulled handguns (semi's) and you hear the inevitable hammer cocking sound from all of them. But as I mentioned on another thread about Jerico, as long as Ashley Scott (the girl with the long blond hair) is on it, I will watch!

Nightcrawler
May 4, 2007, 11:40 AM
Militias, if motivated and organized, are best used in unconventional operations and guerrilla warfare.

Even if there were no laws against citizens owning artillery, jet fighters, and tanks, these items are so expensive and difficult to maintain/use that not enough citizens would have them to make a difference. Say ten rich citizens own F-16s; what good are they going to be against an entire enemy air force? They haven't trained together, coordinated, or anything. Even if they do, it's one squadron against an entire air force of professionally trained fighter pilots. They might die heroically, but they'll still die.

Say your neighbor owns a tank. What good is his one tank against an entire armor battalion? All his tank is good for is an artillery magnet.

The reality is, modern military technology is so sophisticated, so capable, and so expensive that no rag-tag militia force is going to stand a chance in a straight-up fight.

As numerous conflicts in history prove, though, one needn't necessarily engage in a straight up fight to win. You'd better be prepared to accept severe losses, though. To that end, you'd better be pretty damned motivated, otherwise morale will plunge and your effort will fail in short order.

buck00
May 4, 2007, 11:59 AM
Say your neighbor owns a tank. What good is his one tank against an entire armor battalion? All his tank is good for is an artillery magnet.

The reality is, modern military technology is so sophisticated, so capable, and so expensive that no rag-tag militia force is going to stand a chance in a straight-up fight.

I think N Crawler hit it on the head. I don't watch Jericho, but if a trained military force was approaching a town, and a bunch of carbines were handed out to the billy bob civilians- all it would guarantee is an extra 50 dead civilians holding carbines.

The strength of a military unit (regardless if it is guerilla or conventional) is the ability to coordinate efforts and the group training they have. Ever play paintball with a group- when some guys are doing their own thing without any regard for strategy or coordination? It can be frustrating.

Or think of football- you could have the strongest and most talented guy in the world but without the rest of the team his talent and effort is easily neutralized by the opposing team.


* So that is why I cringe when I hear guys bragging how they are going to use their tricked-out synthetic stock SKS with a red dot to hold off the invading Chinese or UN army. :rolleyes: Firearms are good for personal self defense, but we need to be realistic about their use by random civilians vs a real army.

ARGarrison
May 4, 2007, 12:00 PM
Most military small arms have what is called a battle field zero. That gives you a close enough point from witch to aim. Load, reload and imediate action drills should come before marksmanship. Keep the lead flying then worry about hitting targets.

They did not want to take the mortars out. They wanted to take the mortars.

It's not Military vs Milita on Jericho. It is Jericho Milita against their neighbor's milita. It's just that the other town is preparing for war and has mortars vs Jericho's small arms.

How come no earth work defenses? They have had all winter to improve the situation and still use trucks to block roads. Trench warefare sucks but it works in the defenders favor.

Lastly, do not forget Jericho has a Abrams MBT. Even with out main gun rounds or machinegun it is a formatable weapon.

DonP
May 4, 2007, 12:00 PM
I missed several episodes but caught most of Wednesday night's show.

The premise is they are facing another "unorganized militia" from a neighborhing town. Not a trained and disciplined military force.

Now that they have neutralized the other town's firepower advantage (mortars) they are sending out squad sized teams to cover the most likely approach routes to the town, the neigboring farms and their salt mine.

It's all fantasy but if each squad has someone with some military experience and some basic orders on the objectives and rules of engagement, the premise might work against another undisciplined group, especially if they were expecting little resistance.

The shoot outs are pretty much standard Hollyweird fare, but Gerald McRainey is a major player in the series, a serious shooter and a strong 2nd amendment advocate. I don't see him letting them use "magic bullets" where one shot blows up a semi, like they do on Miami CSI, or "spray from the hip" and kill hundreds with one burst.

But bad shooting images go way back in Hollywood. In the 1st Cav our standard appeal, when anyone asked what we needed on the next supply chopper, was for "One of them John Wayne guns, that never needed reloading and could kill five bad guys with a single shot from the hip". Never got one though but I'm still looking.

buck00
May 4, 2007, 12:13 PM
The premise is they are facing another "unorganized militia" from a neighborhing town. Not a trained and disciplined military force.

As I said I don't watch the show. But if this is the case- then I would throw the dice and hand out carbines. An unorganized group vs another unorganized group is a totally different situation.

As far as zeroing rifles? If it is urban combat- most fighting is done under 200 yards.

Geronimo45
May 4, 2007, 12:22 PM
Hadn't heard about this show. Guess I'll have to catch up on it.

Worth of such a group: Depends on the range. If it's about 200 yards, that trained shooter may be in a world of trouble.
Many new shooters'll shut their eyes when they're pulling the trigger. That throws their aim off a bit - possibly offsetting the baid zero of the sights. Whether the shots are pinpoint or no, you've got some suppressive fire on the position that's not easy to ignore.

Question: Has anybody in that series got wise and started a brewery? After all, in an end-of-the-world situation, an irregular army marches on its liver.

Kali Endgame
May 4, 2007, 12:22 PM
Thanks for getting me interested. Iv'e heard of the show, but never watched it. Now I will check it out. I am always interested in a good(decent) show.

buck00
May 4, 2007, 12:31 PM
Has anybody in that series got wise and started a brewery? After all, in an end-of-the-world situation, an irregular army marches on its liver.

Hahaha. I never heard this one before.

I may have to check it out myself. In Stephen King's "The Stand" the big thing is the CA group (bad guys) begins trying to get to military stock piles at abandoned military bases. They aren't messing around with 30-06 rifles at the local mom and pop stores- they were trying to get chemical weapons, jets, etc. Of course, they would also need qualified military people to use such advanced weapons.

That would be the smartest move in a post-apocalyptic world- get to a military arsenal that is intact and stock up on whatever you can.

Biker
May 4, 2007, 12:36 PM
Flagg had the Trashcan Man and The Free Zone had Tom Cullens and Stu Redman - Good vs. Evil. The Walkin' Dude gets screwed every time. M-O-O-N and that spells *screwed*!

Biker;)

tmajors
May 4, 2007, 12:44 PM
Hadn't heard about this show. Guess I'll have to catch up on it.

Don't be too turned off by the first oh 5 episodes which us regular viewers refer to as "The Super Jake Show". The show gets better, really.

Question: Has anybody in that series got wise and started a brewery? After all, in an end-of-the-world situation, an irregular army marches on its liver.

Yes the town has a moonshine bar. Became moonshine when the beer and bottled liquer ran out. Though the last few episodes the still has been used to make antiseptic for the hospital instead of hooch so even the moonshine is low.

Sean85746
May 4, 2007, 12:58 PM
...and what it comes down to is the willingness of the men with rifles to actually use them.

From the beginning of the show, which I like, the "humanity" of the Jericho townspeople has been part of their semi-undoing. That same humanity has helped keep them together, but it also got Gray Davis elected mayor, and Johnston Green voted out of office. To anyone with common sense, Johnston was and IS the best leader for the town.

These folks need to be willing to pop primers on former neighbors, and "friendly football rivals".

So, no matter how many rifles have been handed out to those "16 and above", unless they are willing to use them the fight is over. Extensive training is likewise moot, there will be no time. What is needed RIGHT NOW is effective leadership. Johnston, Jake and Erik Green, Rob Hawkins (CIA Super Spook With the Nuke). Small bands of the so called "Jericho Rangers" led by these guys COULD mount a pretty good offensive campaign while others manned static defensive postions.

I like the show. I like that it actually LOOKS like a struggle in a post-apocalyptic world. It is a true (though Hollywood conceived) SHTF scenario (that is SO totally far fetched I won't argue it's merits here).

It is a good argument for having several dogs capable of breeding..."Dog makes a fine meal". LOL.

CannibalCrowley
May 4, 2007, 01:07 PM
A retired Marine who can't hold an unarmed truck driver at gunpoint.

Sorry to nitpick; but Johnston Green is a former Ranger, not a Marine.


Say your neighbor owns a tank. What good is his one tank against an entire armor battalion? All his tank is good for is an artillery magnet.

Hey that reminds me, the town does have a tank.

cheygriz
May 4, 2007, 01:07 PM
Sticking STRICTLY to the OPs Jericho scenario, would you rather have a bunch of untrained people out there with un-zeroed rifles, or with baseball bats?:confused:

Even a NEW York City "soccer mom" :what: is going to be more effective with an AK-47 than a baseball bat or butcher knife.

And BTW, MOST small town and farm folk from rural Kansas are quite proficient in handling rifles, including knowing how to zero them.

And in the Jerico scenario, they are fighting another untrained, undiscipled militia, not a professional army.

Kaylee
May 4, 2007, 01:09 PM
It sure was an interesting presentation, but yeah, sucky leadership in the initial defense. But I guess that's not unrealistic.. people do stupid things when they're put in new situations sometimes.

Seems to me what they really needed was to organize their militia months ago, rather than just assuming everything would work out okay. More than anything, I think they needed an honest-to-gosh sniper corp put together.. in all that open country, seems there's no excuse for running up to "whites of their eyes" range when it looks like near everyone has access to a scoped deer rifle.

It is kinda neat seeing more "real" weapons pop up as time goes on. I liked seeing the M1As. Looked like a great choice for all that open country. :)

-K

Boats
May 4, 2007, 01:33 PM
Yeah, they should have been raiding the county animal shelter by now. Cat stew would be preferable to starving.:D

I also love that the local salt mine is such a bone of contention. It's been a little early to run out of Morton's. Maybe their salt is such a rapidly needed trade commodity worth fighting and dying over because other folks need to make salt licks for livestock or de-ice some backroads?:D

Curiously there is no shortage of ammo for all of the missing that has been going on.

Jericho would have been better if it were written in a much darker tone, not stuffed to the gills with cliches done better elsewhere (Troubled father/son relationships/retarded love triangles/silly political struggles).

The show should have been on FOX in the 2100 time slot with about half of the characters cut, more character development spent on the main characters, and people dropping like flies in a world where life is cheap and the law is what you can make of it. Jericho should be set in a dog eat dog world, but it has too much Golden Retriever puppy in it to survive as is.

Patriot-Brewer
May 4, 2007, 02:06 PM
As Kaylee said, the arrival of M14's means things should start turning for the better.:cool:

Leanwolf
May 4, 2007, 02:32 PM
It's just a soap opera, folks.

In Hollywood, very, very few writers, directors, actors, or producers, have ever served in the military. They know nothing about military tactics and weapons -- or most any other kinds of firearms -- other than when they buy a couple copies of "Soldier of Fortune," or a book or two from Barnes & Noble, or buy a copy of the monthly "Guns & Ammo."

I watched some of "Jericho," but could not take the premise that "evil, right wing reactionary, red necked, power mad, malevolent capitalist pigs" who had gotten nukes and nuked the entire metropolitain areas of the United States. Plus, the absurd idea that the "good guys" are the communist and socialist countries who air drop supplies to the worker peasants out in the boondocks. You know, the good guys from China, Germany, places where socialism and communism are the great saviour ideologies of the world.

That plot line or premise, has been done on teeeveee and in the flicks a couple thousands times. Gets kinda old, to me. :cuss:


Oh well... it's show biz, boys & girls. ;)

L.W.

MudCamper
May 4, 2007, 02:48 PM
Jericho is both refreshingly cool and monumentally stupid at the same time.

That about sums it up. It's a network TV show, and as such comes with all the lame plot elements and terrible hollywood gunplay, but it's in a post-nuked fractured Armerica, which makes it very interesting.

sacp81170a
May 4, 2007, 02:51 PM
One thing that often gets ignored in military scenarios on TV and in the movies is that bullets penetrate. Yeah, yeah, I know, paintball training is a lot of fun, but IMHO I feel that it feeds some non-combat effective behavior that must be trained out of a unit in order to survive on the battlefield. As marksmen in the civilian world, we have the "see your target before you shoot" rule drilled into our heads. In a combat situation, lead flying in the direction of the enemy can be effective even if you can't see who you're shooting at. Fire superiority is the name of the game. Massed fire in the same direction is more effective against an enemy than waiting to see him and trying to take a bead on him. Effective officers and NCO's know this, and they know how to direct the fire of their forces to achieve the most effect on a battlefield. Shoot something, but above all, shoot!

In this scenario, effective leadership and fire control are more effective than trying to teach everyone to become a sharpshooter all of a sudden.

Limeyfellow
May 4, 2007, 04:13 PM
Investing in a good machinest and chemist would be as helpful as anything. Then you can put together IEDs and mines with a little knowledge.

You could work on other defensives along with it. They have a hospital, moonshining operation, gravesites and so on so you should be able to put something together.

A proper barrier around the town is a must in these Jericho siturations. Even if its around one small area of vital interest. If they had a year to build up defenses and know there are dangerous gangs out there and haven't invest in some earthworks its kind of lazy. You probrobly want some bunker type operations built from shelter from mortars.

Raid the nearest military and police installations if they still survive. I wouldn't use chemical or biological weapons they have there. They are just too dangerous and theres a good chance you wipe out a fair number of yourself too. Artillary fire, machine guns, transports for quick movement around the town for reinforcement. You could find a whole bunch of stuff in the National Guard Armory here in town. What you get out of it in the end will really vary though. Again a good machinest and chemist would really help make up supplies here.

Of course you can't forget the important growing food. You need crops and water obtained otherwise you are going to starve fairly soon. Without that it doesn't matter how well armed you are.

tmajors
May 4, 2007, 04:21 PM
Of course you can't forget the important growing food. You need crops and water obtained otherwise you are going to starve fairly soon.

Crops take time to grow unfortunately. For a Jericho situation long term food storage is HIGHLY nessecary, including crop seed. Eat storage while crops grow, eat crops and store extra, eat storage, rinse/repeat. Learn how to get new seed from crops.

No matter how you feel about the LDS Church one thing they have right that I don't think anyone can deny is 1-year food/water supply.

bdutton
May 4, 2007, 04:26 PM
Someon mentioned that Jericho had an Abrahms MBT. Did't the fake soldiers get secretly disarmed and had to march out of town with the tank?

I recall in the episode two weeks ago the girl 'soldier' who reappeared mentioned that a tank doesn't go very far without gas.

Boats
May 4, 2007, 04:40 PM
No matter how you feel about the LDS Church one thing they have right that I don't think anyone can deny is 1-year food/water supply.

Yeah, but I have heard the crack that Mormon households in a true SHTF scenario are more like convenience stores as they have tied themselves to hard to move larders and many of them don't bother with guns anymore like their pioneering forebears did.

TonyB
May 4, 2007, 04:42 PM
They kept the tank and put it in Stanley's barn..I wonder if they'll use it in the finally?
I like the show..for network tv,I am surprised it doesn't take a MORE touchy feely,guns are bad slant.A major plot point seems to be the need for guns.I fear the show will not return though,due to all the gun control talk lately.Plus the main star is named SKEET(Ulrich)gotta love that......is his brother named TRAP?:neener:

tmajors
May 4, 2007, 04:50 PM
many of them don't bother with guns anymore like their pioneering forebears

Me thinks if people think that in my area they gonna be in for a suprise. Your right though, many LDS think about the food/water but don't think about other stuff like guns and ammo. Think it has more to do with the area of the country then anything else. My area the ammo is right next to the buckets of grain.

MrDig
May 4, 2007, 04:54 PM
I was Impressed with the show to this point, I have some misgivings as was pointed out it is a Hollywood Soap Opera.
The first episodes were the ne'r do well son attempting to redeem himself with his father amidst the Baloon going up and his own PTSD issues. So the "Super Jake Episodes" have some merit in that respect.
I like Gerald McCreney as an actor and always have. Even if his personal life was a tabloid fiasco for a time.

Caimlas
May 4, 2007, 05:33 PM
My wife and I have been watching Jericho fairly religiously. Sometime after Wednesday @ 10pm Central but likely before the weekend, we'll sit in front of the computer and watch it. :P


In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?

I'd say at least anyone who's done much hunting could, adrennaline not withstanding, hit a man-sized target at 100 - 200 yards with a scoped rifle without much effort. In Kansas, I imagine at least 80% of the male populace has had at least recreational trigger time at 100 yards by the time they're 16. From what I hear, they hunt a lot of deer there...

If I were to organize such an affair, I'd give the best marksmen (with the most mettle) the weapon of their choice with a preference for rapid target acquisition and elimination, and then work down from there. Those who can reliably hit a 6" target at 50 yards get the 'extra' rifles, and everyone else is either relegated to pistols or simple support. Ideally, you could assess marksmanship quality by asking them (quickly) questions like, "How many deer have you bagged, and how long did you generally have to track them?" or "How large is your typical group at 100 yards and how long have you been shooting?" - et cetera - and then assess their basic stances.

ETA: Put everyone in 5 or 6-man such groups and have them practice moving and covering together, and I think you'd be able to drastically improve your overall fighting chance by a significant margin. ALl the more so without modern comm methods.

I'd also do a quick, improvised training course if time allowed with .22LR rifles, 50 rounds scoped and 50 rounds unscoped, for anyone of questionable marksmanship. YOu may get a couple positive surprises.

(I'm probably going to mention a spoiler or two here, for those who haven't been paying attention to the show...)

For those who haven't seen the show, all the episodes are available from http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/ (Flash and WMP and/or RealPlayer req'd)

Something I noted is that while they were in the storage shed, all the rifles were "assault" weapons: M1As, M16s/AR-15s, M4s, AKs, and I think I may have seen some FALs/G3s. However, not a one was an 'assault' rifle except for the one that Farmer Boy (what's his name) took out - what looked like an SBR AR of some sort. They were all scoped bolt actions and lever guns. The "good guys" very rarely have anything but "hunting rifles" in that show, and it's irritating.

Also, when they tried to ambush the mortar team in one of the last two episodes, they moved in from 100 yards. Uh, what? A bunch of Kansas good ol' boys who have been trained to be "Rangers" (or at least from the Ranger handbook) made a frontal attack, starting at 100 yards, instead of flanking and opening fire? I doubt there are all that many Jim Bobs out there who couldn't make a 100 yard shot with a scoped rifle if given the time to make it, from cover.

I guess I've got some pretty big problems with the plot and general directing. I mean, c'mon - in the firefight in the latest episode, guys were grouped closely together within 50 yards of their enemies (body to body, almost) and werne't getting hit, while a group of 15 or so guys just run down the road from behind and take them out. Dumb.

As for their overall tactic of taking on Newburn? Let's see: you've got a town with industrial capacity for munitions and is manufacturing mortars to shell your town. Do you a) try and take out the mortar trucks and form a militia, taking out small groups, operating mostly defensively, or b) form up in a similar fashion, but instead organize to attack with the M1A Abrams MBT you've got hidden in a barn (whether you've got munitions for it or not, it'd make a nice mobile firing platform)? Seems like a no-brainer to me!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and they've got a freakin' small-yield nuke. If worst came to worst, and all that, at the least they could put it in the tank and drive it there on a one-man suicide mission. "Withdrawl your troops and mortars or your town gets it!"

Generally, the show is pretty poorly thought out, and it's little more than poor quality "survivalist porn".

It's just confounding that two towns very close to each other would evolve two drastically different mindsets in such a short period of time, given similar happenstance.

Mannlicher
May 4, 2007, 05:51 PM
Jericho is a stupid, insipid make believe show written by hollywood folks that know nothing of militias, guns, nuclear weapons or even science. I am surprised that anyone watches it at all.

MrDig
May 4, 2007, 05:57 PM
Also the reason the British had a problem in both wars with us is we knew the turf and they didn't. Citizen Soldiers with Huntin Irons whupped em good.
Same holds for Today. I chalenge you to find a person in a small rural town that can't shoot at all. Some shoot very well. The trick is training people to do the unnatural, Take a Human Life. The Military struggles with this, it is psychologicly unnatural to take a human life and they have to train you to do it. In a "Jericho" environment this will be a little less of an issue as personal survival will usually win out over the urge to save a human life. Those who cannot overcome it will not survive to procreate and therefore not be an issue.
In Nature the herd would cull itself through predation and disease, unfortunately for the Human herd in this situation the herd would be culled through the "Ya aint from round theseparts are ya?" filter.

Caimlas
May 4, 2007, 05:59 PM
Alternatively, they could modify the MBT's tube to fire the captured mortars. I doubt that'd be too difficult, and they'd at least be able to figure out a rough 'we want to destroy that building/truck/etc. 50 yards away' type aiming mechanism. They'd not need that many mortars to make it effective (arm it with 50 of 'em and go joy riding through the neighboring town - you'd do a mighty large amount of damage).

Titan6
May 4, 2007, 06:07 PM
Anyone watch that? It was pretty good.

Fair. I don't watch much TV. I am working when the show is on so I watch it on the computer when I can. It certainly is better than about 90% of the rest of the nonsense on TV.

I'm wondering about the end scene where they were handing out rifles to everyone without. I don't think I've ever had a rifle that I could shoot straight right away, they all needed to be zeroed. If a bunch of people are given a bunch of rifles they've never shot before, immediately before having to use them in combat, at what ranges could they be effective?

That really depends on where the sights are. Very bad decision to hand out the rifles the way they did. Probably a third to a half of the people don't even know how to use them. The sights would vary from dead on to way, way off.

With an unfamiliar rifle, lots of stress, and a rifle that you don't actually know shoots straight or not, maybe 50m would be a reasonable distance to expect the militia to hit targets? Would that be a case where you see an authority telling them to hold fire until they can see the whites of the enemy's eyes?

For trained soldiers in combat accuarcy drops about 75% on average. For untrained soldiers I would say somewhat more then that. Range varies greatly.

In such a situation, what's the worth of such militia compared to a guy or gal who'd already had a rifle he's familiar and capable with - 4:1, 10:1? If he can engage them out at 200 or 300m with ease, that's a large advantage. But in general, would the hasty militia be best used in offence or defence, and likewise for the trained riflemen?

Untrained versus trained typically the advantage is given at three to one. Even a small amount of training can make a huge difference though. If the other town had even trained professionally for even a few days at small group tactics they would be miles ahead. This does not include leadership however. Leadership is generally the single most important factor towards victory in any military engagement. A bad leader can assure defeat every time.

Lastly, if they'd had a .50BMG rifle, at roughly what distance would a decent shooter have been able to put holes in the mortar tubes?

That depends on a lot also, such as what the tubes were made out of and what kind of ammo was being shot. The mortars appeared to be down in a depression so line of sight would have been the issue.

P.S. I like how there weren't sparks flying off everything that was hit!

Also no flat tires? Come on it is TV...:neener:

lacoochee
May 4, 2007, 06:42 PM
Given how unorganized they are I am surprised they weren't cleaned out immediately.

How is it that a town of four of five thousand doesn't have at least a cadre of 100 or so vets? I live in a town of 900, and there are 4 vets of fighting age on my road of 12 houses, not including myself. Hell, my best friend from college who spent 6 years as a SEAL, live 3 miles down SR52. Maybe military service is a Southern thing, but I seem to remember a lot of guys from the midwest while I was serving, very few yankees though.

I still like the show though it's one of the few where the second amendment is made such an obvious necessity.

Leanwolf
May 4, 2007, 07:14 PM
TONY B - "... A major plot point seems to be the need for guns.I fear the show will not return though,due to all the gun control talk lately."

Tony B, if the show's ratings are good -- and I haven't checked them -- the show will be back.

Network shows live and die on ratings. Good ratings mean lots of advertisers. That means big bucks.

If "Jericho's" ratings are in the toilet, however, then the show will be cancelled. Simple as that.

L.W.

Saiga39
May 4, 2007, 07:17 PM
The show has gotten better this year. Darker too. CBS didn't know how it was going to go over so when uit renewed for the 2nd season, they brought in some new writers.

I would have thought that all those storage units where Hawkins had all his weapons stored would have long been broken into to see what was in them.

I also thought that when they started handing the guns out, they would have called for those with prior millitary expirience to come forward first to get the AR's, rather than just giving them out to whoever.

Without sounding to whacky, it has made me interested in hooking up with some military vets for some more tactical type training. Or may I should just outright pay for it. I've seen a number of news articles recently about gang graffiti showing up in Iraq and about members of the religion of peace training with paintball guns here in the US.

My state has a State Guard that I've thought about joining.

Would it shock anyone if something really bad happened someday??

highdesert
May 5, 2007, 12:44 AM
I have a love-hate relationship with Jericho. I wish it was grittier, like "Deadwood" on HBO, but all things considered it's fairly interesting. It's a little disappointing how reactive the town is. I haven't seen any episode show them doing anything significant to improve their situation or defenses. Maybe trading for windmills, but that's about it. And everybody looks too well groomed...

Lucky
May 5, 2007, 12:46 AM
When they start showing women with mustaches, you'll take that back.

LoneStranger
May 5, 2007, 01:04 AM
Show is a Least Coast, Left Coast, Hollyweird, New York City misconception of Kansas and its people.

Mostly written without reference to any maps or other geographical concepts.

But between Ft. Carson, CO, Ft. Riley, KS, Ft. Leavenworth, KS and a host of other places the concept does not match to well with reality.

Watched first 3 episodes then stopped because gross stupidity offends me.

helpless
May 5, 2007, 01:10 AM
Seems like pretty good entertainment. What channel? Time? Day?

teotwawki
May 5, 2007, 01:16 AM
I would presume that Hawkins would have pre-zeroed all the rifles at 100 yards to 200 yards. He's just that kind of guy. I can keep them in the black at 100 yards with a rack grade, pre-zeroed MBR with milsurp ammo. As far as their traning, presumably they don't have time to train everyone before the attack.

lacoochee
May 5, 2007, 09:26 AM
It's the lack of time to train thats the annoying part, they have had 4 or 5 months to get organized and trained. In 4 to 5 months I am sure you could get a decent company sized unit up and going, especially using prior vets as a core unit. You can take conscripts and weld them into an effective fighting units in 8 weeks, faster if you are pushed. They have massive columns of hungry people moving in the country side headed south for warmer climes and they don't think to set up strong points and point defenses?

Another thing, why aren't they growing stuff in green houses? You can grow vegetable crops in boxes with glass on top with very little effort and reasonable yields. It's a town full of farmers......

Deathrider1579
May 5, 2007, 10:39 AM
If your just going for MOB ~ 100 yards couldn't you just bore-sight all the rifles?
That would save a ton of ammo for the upcoming battle.

And while its a town full of farmers... they are farmers made up by Hollywood elitists so they are OBVOUSLY ignorant and retarded etc. IE nothing like real resourceful farmers that I know.

-DR

just one question
May 5, 2007, 10:44 AM
To all the nay sayers in this thread.


The show has gotten better, it was a little shaky for the first half of the season, but since then it has gotten better.

The season finale is this Wednesday, tune in. it seems like it may be the best episode yet from the previews. Even if you haven't seen the show before tune in for the season finale.


You guys are always complaining how the movies and shows are anti gun, but now that there is a pro gun show..... You nit pick at it and refuse to watch it:confused:

Roadwild17
May 5, 2007, 12:03 PM
Lets not forget, Hawkings has an AI and has shown he can shoot at some range. There are others with deer rifles and such that can add some range to the fight. What I'm figuring have your "infantry" in some make shift earth works, with "marksmen" about 100 yards behind them in camo positions. The "infantry" would just lay lead to keep the BGs down while the "marksmen" pick them off at will.

Of course, the writer will have Jericho winning, That how I figure it will happen.

P.S. Wouldn't it be really cool if we got some street fighting in this episode!?!?

Titan6
May 5, 2007, 12:48 PM
Lack of time to train. Lacochee, you expect to much. The town had very poor leadership the first few months and nothing was really accomplished. I bet this is much more realistic than a General Patton rising up suddenly and taking charge.

akodo
May 5, 2007, 01:06 PM
For those who want to catch up

http://www.cbs.com/innertube/player.php?cat=115191&vid=&format=&auto=0

There is a lot of gun wierdness on Jericho, but I suspect that they have contracted with some prop house that has a color catalog, and the director just thumbs through it and picks guns from there. It is cool that the local sherrif/mayor's department had a rack of M-1 carbines, fits well with Johnston's background, plus for a while the US military was giving them out to local police departments, I can definately see Johnston Green having the attitude of 'hell yea we'll take 10, 20 if you can spare em!'

However, I suspect that it was just the director flipping through the catalog, saw a gun with a wood stock and a blued barrel, saw the company had listed they had 10 of em, figured it would work good for some of the early scenes, and looked less military than the ARs or AKs to his uneducated eyes.

Same with some of the scenes vs Blackwater. Some guys at the blocade had lever action rifles, but they weren't Winchester 94 lever actions in 30-30, they were henries and yellowboys. Unless the locals who had em were into Cowboy Action Shooting, that just didn't fit....except when you figure the prop company has got some correct for cowboy erra lever actions and that is what gets picked out of the catalog.

Hell, even in this latest episode, Other Brother (I cannot ever remmber his name) is riding around as a scout with an over-under shotgun slung across his back, *** is that? Take a hacksaw to it, use it as backup, then get yourself one of the many hunting rifles you see Johnston Green has.


Somehow a while back a FEMA camp of refugees erupted in violence, and a group of people got ahold of some military uniforms, radios, some guns (but barely any ammo) and a tank (which of course makes no sense) and went around faking it to get food. Jericho was almost fooled, but ended up with the tank. (no ammo for it)

I really expected to see the tank appear and run the mortar unit over. Even without it's own weaponry, a tank driving around in your formations is going to have the same effect as elephants did to the bronze age armies.

Old Dead Grandpa Green appears to have been quite wealthy, and somewhat of a survival nut himself. Apparently in preporation for a USSR attack, his grandsons were trained to identify military aircraft by airborne silloette. I was really hoping we were going to see 2 stockpiles of weapons this episode. I was hoping Johnston Green would have nodded acceptance of the deal (or better yet say "All right I can agree to the all gas all trucks all guns, but NOT the mortars, they aren't going to be of any use to out there, they are only good for attacking an entire town, and if you plan on doing that, well, we'll fight you right now about that") Then say 'Jake, other Brother, go get some shovels we got to go dig up under the floorboards of the horsebarn' Hawkins then asks for jakes assistance first.

Greens seem the type to me to have a few crates of WWII surplus mausers burried somewhere. That would have been a great scene, Johnston Green pulls back a tarp revealing 4 crates covered with dirt, pops one open to reveal 5-10 mausers or mosin-nagants. Then Hawkins and Jake pull up, "We got some guns too!" and pulls back his tarp revealing handguns and evil black assault rifles.

Of course, I thought the amount of handguns Hawkins had stockpiled was kind of silly. I can understand a few, but really, for every handgun you stockpile, that is one less SKS you COULD have stockpiled. Have enough handguns for your immediate family to have as sidearms, but when you are stockpiling to arm a militia in TEOTWAWKI, rifles rifles rifles


Now us highroaders I am all sure if somehow caught without our personal firearms would be clamoring for the AR-15s in hawkin's stash, but once those ran out and he started handing out pistols, we'd all say 'no thanks, I am going to go get one of those mausers Green is handing out!'

Sam Bass
May 5, 2007, 02:00 PM
Howdy folks. Well, I like the show, I've watched it since day one. There are rumors it's getting cancelled, and I hope not.

Say what you want about the stupidity. I've seen it too, such as the episode where Jake and Hawkins infiltrate the mortar factory, and Jake whirls around with his gun pointed out, sweeping right at Hawkins as he turns.

However, to me the show is pro gun. It enforces the fact that everyone will need to have weapons to survive if such a scenario ever happens. I find it entertaining and will continue to watch.

As for the thread, I would agree it would be better to have your untrained citizens defending the town with rifles than with baseball bats.

tmajors
May 5, 2007, 02:25 PM
I thought the amount of handguns Hawkins had stockpiled was kind of silly.

Did you miss the "what's in your safe" thread here on THR a few months back. A few of our members could rival Hawkin's handgun stash, maybe even beat it.

Seven High
May 5, 2007, 02:40 PM
In last weeks episode, they killed off some residents of the other town during the battle. I am waiting for the reisdents of Jericho to be issued Soylent Green.

Lucky
May 5, 2007, 03:20 PM
helpless see Akodo's link or this one http://www.cbs.com/primetime/jericho/

lacoochee there was a brief mention of someone growing beets or turnips in a bathtub. I guess it was just meant to convey that people were growing their own food as much as possible.

But hell yea a pro-gun TV show, where they are pro CIVILIANS having guns, how can anyone not support it? Damnit tell your friends! ;)

cliffstanc
May 5, 2007, 04:41 PM
I've also been watching from the beginning, so pardon the nerdity.

Despite what the first show says, I've estimated (based on what's seen in two shows and mentioned in another) that Jericho has, at most, about 2000 people in it. I can go into detail how I came by that number if people want. Jericho being smaller than the "official" population of 5000 fits better with how they've acted through the series, IMHO. Frex, it explains their noticible lack of expertise (military, medical, etc.) that you'd expect in a larger population.

Regarding Hawkins' stash - remember he was planning on meeting up with other compatriots in Jericho - it was the "rally point". It makes sense for him to store items like handguns for them as well.

The tank is not necessarily out of ammunition. We know it's out of gas, but to say it has no ammo implies two things. First, the tank never had ammo issued to it when sent to the camp. But there's no good reason to send a neutered tank if you anticipate hostilities, and if you don't anticipate hostilities then why send a valuable, fuel-hungry machine that's essentially worthless? Second possibility, it did have ammo and the fake Marines shot it all. But at who? There's no point in killing people you're trying to scam, and they never mentioned a firefight where they had to use it. Who knows if they even knew how to fire it - they were all civilians.

I think it is entirely possible that the tank still has main gun ammo and maybe even coax ammo as well. All they need is fuel - a lot of it. I hope the season ender proves me right! TANK BATTLE! :D

I think the gun handling is decent, especially when you compare it to your typical TV show. Honestly, the thing that sticks in my craw most is not the gun stuff, but the premise that they're all starving in the middle of western Kansas! When you've got counties with average populations of a few thousand producing millions of bushels of wheat and/or corn annually, I have a hard time seeing them not able to feed themselves from local sources at least until spring.

Still, I think it's a good show - and sure as hell could have been a lot worse. Count your blessings.

buck00
May 5, 2007, 04:48 PM
Ok, maybe I am dating myself but when I was a kid there was a TV movie called "The Day After" (1983) and no, not "The Day After Tomorrow" for all you youngsters. It sounds very similar to Jericho with one major difference- a little thing called fallout.

So my question is- how is the theme of radiation fallout or "nuclear winter" addressed in Jericho?

Anyone read "On the Beach?" By the end of the book, these guys are stuck in a submarine after WW3 realizing they are dead once they come up for fresh air.

fatelk
May 5, 2007, 04:54 PM
I've watched the show only a few times, have not followed it closely. Having grown up in a rural/ small town environment, the idea of two towns forming their own militias and killing each other seems ludicrous to me. High school football rivalries are one thing, slaughtering each other is something altogether different, especially when most people have many friends and family in the next town over.

In my experience when bad things happen (natural disasters, tragedies, etc) most Americans pull together, especially in rural America. Towns forming militias and killing each other sounds like something out of medeivel Europe.

My brother-in-law was killed in a farming accident in Nebraska last fall, the outpouring from the community was amazing. There are a lot of good people out there. Tragedy can bring out the best in people, as well as the worst (like the cold-blooded vulture funeral director who ripped off my sister by obsenely overchargeing for the funeral).

Back to the show; I have watched it occasionally and enjoy it for what it is, unrealistic entertainment. I am a little offended though, to think that this is what Hollywood thinks 'country folk' are like. I also wonder about the original premise of who did the nuking. Not having followed it closely, is it the sort of 'right-wing conspiracy' that would make Rosie O proud?

Titan6
May 5, 2007, 04:59 PM
Fallout depends on the type of device used. The fallout might have fallen to non dangerous levels in as quickly as a few days depending on the bomb.

They were also quite far from the closest bomb (at least 200 miles). With a ground burst (as these were truck bombs) the pattern is greatly reduced also.

tanksoldier
May 5, 2007, 05:05 PM
Hey that reminds me, the town does have a tank.

What are they using for fuel and spare parts, and do they have anyone who knows how to maintain it?

It will run off distilled alcohol, but consumes 3-7 gallons of diesel per mile... consumption of alcohol will be higher due to lower energy density, at least double.

Tommygunn
May 5, 2007, 05:21 PM
Ok, maybe I am dating myself but when I was a kid there was a TV movie called "The Day After" (1983) and no, not "The Day After Tomorrow" for all you youngsters. It sounds very similar to Jericho with one major difference- a little thing called fallout.
So my question is- how is the theme of radiation fallout or "nuclear winter" addressed in Jericho?

In maybe the second episode or so they were worried about fallout. They all went inside at the time. I recall a bunch of characters coming out, and one of the women wondering what the dust all over was, and a male character replying; "that's Denver."

Fallout depends on the type of device used. The fallout might have fallen to non dangerous levels in as quickly as a few days depending on the bomb.

That is probably the best explanation for Jericho.
I generally enjoy the show. I got a little crazy at the last episode when the first group of rangers went after the mortars, and they were broadcasting "in the open" over radio. :banghead: New Berg probably has radios, too, guys!!!!:fire: :neener: If you can't get encoded radios, which is a possibility I do have sympathy for, atleast code your voice transmissions by saying things like "King's Rook two to white fox, pitchforks at zulu bravo 1 niner." or something like that -- better yet, don't be broadcasting anything. The fact THAT YOU'RE BROADCASTING might be enough for the New Bergians to glean some info!
Yeah...they made some other boo-boos. I suppose it's realistic in that they are amateurs at war (townsfolk) and won't be all Rambos first time out!;) :scrutiny:


Not having followed it closely, is it the sort of 'right-wing conspiracy' that would make Rosie O proud?

The nature of the conspiracy that launched the attack was a little bit ... "hazy" to me, and IMHO not well thought out by the writers of the show. It seemed a conglomerate of RW "militia" types and others who normally don't cooperate...neonazies, that ilk.

There is a lot of gun wierdness on Jericho, but I suspect that they have contracted with some prop house that has a color catalog, and the director just thumbs through it and picks guns from there. It is cool that the local sherrif/mayor's department had a rack of M-1 carbines, fits well with Johnston's background, plus for a while the US military was giving them out to local police departments, I can definately see Johnston Green having the attitude of 'hell yea we'll take 10, 20 if you can spare em!'
...
Same with some of the scenes vs Blackwater. Some guys at the blocade had lever action rifles, but they weren't Winchester 94 lever actions in 30-30, they were henries and yellowboys. Unless the locals who had em were into Cowboy Action Shooting, that just didn't fit....except when you figure the prop company has got some correct for cowboy erra lever actions and that is what gets picked out of the catalog.

I did see that, and some of the locals had bolt rifles, and I recall an M-1 Carbine in that scene. Didn't think it was all that bad. I own a Repro 1873 Winchester, a repro Colt SAA, and other BP revolvers, and I don't do cowboy shooting sports. But if I was in that particular situation I wouldn't, of course, bring those, I'd bring my Bushie M4orgery and modern handguns. But maybe the guys with the Henrys brought those 'cause that's what they had....;)

pmcolt
May 5, 2007, 05:22 PM
^^^^
(Potential vague spoilers if you haven't been watching Jericho.)

I remember the movie, especially John Lithgow as the annoying nerdy science guy in Lawrence, KS. (Lawrence was one of the cities that got hit in Jericho. I wonder if that was meant to reference "The Day After".)

There was no full-scale nuclear exchange in Jericho (that we know of, at least). About a dozen US cities were hit in a terrorist attack, and there may have been a retaliatory strike against... someone.

In the second or third episode (the first few eps kind of blur together), the residents of Jericho took shelter from a storm that carried fallout to the ground from the nuke that hit Denver. From what I remember from my physics and nuclear courses, most fallout would be nuclides with a short half-life; after a couple weeks, it should've been safe to come out, anyway.

Later on, we learn that Jericho was chosen as a rally point for Hawkins' group after the attack, because prevailing winds wouldn't carry much fallout to Jericho, and the water table would also be unaffected. We even see mapped projections of such in his underground lair--I mean, basement.


I kind of like the show. Not necessarily for its dumb moments, but because of the discussions it's prompted with friends. (Much like this thread; there's been a lot of "if they have an amateur radio station, shouldn't they have a lot more information?", and "what would be the best way for a town to defend itself from a group like Ravenwood?", and of course, the more generic "what on Earth are they thinking?!" Plus, who would've imagined that CBS would air a show that didn't end this postapocalyptic town-vs.-town conflict with a "guns are bad. can't we just sit down and settle our differences over a cup of tea?" message?)

WildcatRegi
May 5, 2007, 05:36 PM
I'll tell you what I'd like from Jericho since I already have most of what else I would need :rolleyes:

I'd like some of those magic candles that they've been burning by the bushel full for 9 months!

Mine don't last nearly as long.

Lucky
May 5, 2007, 05:46 PM
In my experience when bad things happen (natural disasters, tragedies, etc) most Americans pull together, especially in rural America. Towns forming militias and killing each other sounds like something out of medeivel Europe.

Donner Party... In all seriousness, when lives are on the line everything changes. I find stories about people on life boats the most interesting, because after a while the closest relationships become meaningless. I read a true story about a bunch of people in the South Pacific during WW2, and saw another on TV ('I Shouldn't Be Alive', iirc) with a smaller group of people, also on a raft. One important thing to remember is that after long deprivation, the last action of most people (in the WW2 case at least) before they died was almost always to try and kill everyone else, by pulling the plug in the boat, or trying to capsize it. Also when a Japanese destroyer was trying to rescue survivors of the Yamato during WW2 one guy would grab the rope thrown down, and then a bunch of other guys would grab onto him and pull them all down under the water.


They were also quite far from the closest bomb (at least 200 miles). With a ground burst (as these were truck bombs) the pattern is greatly reduced also.

It's ground-bursts that cause fallout. They throw dirt up, and it falls.

If you can't get encoded radios, which is a possibility I do have sympathy for

I know little, but I believe you can make a directional antenna by blocking part of it off, perhaps with tinfoil - like a satellite dish.


From what I remember from my physics and nuclear courses, most fallout would be nuclides with a short half-life; after a couple weeks, it should've been safe to come out, anyway.

Gamma radiation burns the brightest, so to speak, so burns the shortest. It's Gamma that penetrates skin and ionizes. Alpha and especially Beta stay around long after the bomb, but they can't penetrate skin or clothing. So the problem arises if you ingest the fallout, or get it in your eyes or a cut or breath it, because then it ionizes you from the inside out in a bad way. That's why farms are supposed to scrape of the top layer of soil.

Caimlas
May 5, 2007, 05:50 PM
So my question is- how is the theme of radiation fallout or "nuclear winter" addressed in Jericho?


Jericho is the only place in the immediate area which is bypassed by the wind currents flowing through the areas of detonation - or, so the story goes. Probably a scientific improbability, really.

And I've seen The Day After (even though it was made when I was 1)... what a harrowing film. There were also a lot more nuke detonations of larger size in that film than there were in the Jericho universe, IIRC, which would have an impact.

One plot potential they've not touched on yet is those "team members" of Hawkins rallying to Jericho. IIRC, he wasn't clear on whether the team members were from the terrorist cell, or from the government group he was working on - not that it makes much of a difference at this point, because the leader of both groups appear to be that old bald guy. I imagine they'll save that for Season 2, if it ever comes about.

Re: the Blackwater scene and the resulting evident invasion of New Born that resulted in the current season's culminative plot: how realistic is it that Blackwater would just drive up to a roadblock and wouldn't take another route around? They were only a scant dozen or so strong - certainly a group small enough to be taken out quickly and easily, and seemingly not large enough to cause as much damage as they did at New Born.

I wonder if the name of the show, Jericho, was at least a little bit alegorical in reference to the Biblical city of Jericho, which was defeated after God made the walls fall down? That may be an indication as to why they've not had Jericho mount any solid defensive efforts. Damn Philistines and their pacifism! :P

They need to hire me as a writer for this film. :P I've been pissed off whlie watching the film because a lot of the accurate scenarios and the things they're doing right are a minor subset of what I've written in a book I'm working on... I could so surpass the script quality. "No, Director! You need to give these people real fighting weapons, not hunting weapons! And scenario x and setting y is completely implauseable, we've got to change that!"

tmajors
May 5, 2007, 06:02 PM
The fallout issue is really addressed later on. A few episodes back, when Hawkins is telling Jake everything, we find out that Jericho is the rally point for the CIA agents that were going after the terrorists. Jericho was chosen as a "safe" area due to expected prevailing winds and that area not being expected to be covered by radiation clouds and massive fallout.

They got a little in episode 2 or 3 from Denver but it was within safe limits according to the Geiger counter they pulled out of the fallout shelter under town hall.

EDIT: I really should read all the posts before posting :)

I wonder if the name of the show, Jericho, was at least a little bit alegorical in reference to the Biblical city of Jericho

If you watch the interview shows available on CBS's streaming TV thing that is talked about. The interview made the reference as well, but they didn't say if it would end up being some kind of plot point or just a trivia thing.

Titan6
May 5, 2007, 08:23 PM
Both air bursts and ground bursts create fallout. A ground burst creates more over a more localized area. An air burst creates less but it will move higher into the atmosphere, be released over a greater area (maybe globally). Again the type of bomb is more important.

Sam Bass
May 6, 2007, 07:53 PM
"No, Director! You need to give these people real fighting weapons, not hunting weapons!

But aren't hunting weapons more realistic for a town like Jericho? Not all ordinary citizens have military style fighting weapons. I sure don't own any.

I would think hunting style firearms would be by far the most common.

cheygriz
May 6, 2007, 09:10 PM
CHILL OUT, DUDES!

It's a Tv show. If you think it's fun to watch, then watch it. If you think it sucks, tune to another channel! GEEZ!:banghead:

cbsbyte
May 10, 2007, 12:37 AM
Not having followed it closely, is it the sort of 'right-wing conspiracy' that would make Rosie O proud?

I have only intermittently been watching the show. The basic premise is that a well financed homegrown terrorist group/s plotted the attacks, and carried them out at the bidding of a leader/s. Who financed the group is up in the air at this time and probably won't be know until next season. The weapons where ex eastern bloc nuclear warheads that where purchased by the US government before they where sold on the black market.

Leanwolf
May 10, 2007, 03:28 PM
Because of JERICHO'S low ratings throughout the present teeeveee season, I'll hazard a guess that last night's episode was the end of the series and it won't be back next season. :uhoh:

Just a guess. Could be wrong. Network teeeveee scheduleing is a strange racket.

L.W.

Caimlas
May 10, 2007, 08:12 PM
I wonder if their low ratings may not be due to the fact that so many of the viewers watch the show (exclusively) online via cbs.com. Nielson ratings aren't everything, ya know; I think they'd be quite foolish to overlook the presence of viewership the show has online, and can't imagine they'd do so.

Limeyfellow
May 10, 2007, 10:20 PM
Because of JERICHO'S low ratings throughout the present teeeveee season, I'll hazard a guess that last night's episode was the end of the series and it won't be back next season.

Just a guess. Could be wrong. Network teeeveee scheduleing is a strange racket.

CBS renewed the show. Guess they will give it a second try at another season.

Intrepid Dad
May 10, 2007, 11:33 PM
Because of JERICHO'S low ratings throughout the present teeeveee season, I'll hazard a guess that last night's episode was the end of the series and it won't be back next season.

Just a guess. Could be wrong. Network teeeveee scheduleing is a strange racket.

Jericho's ratings weren't terrible, just not great. Before the break they averaged around 10 million viewers. After the break it was about 8 million. As was pointed out, many viewers watch at cbs.com but unfortunately for Jericho, advertisers are not yet willing to pay for viewings after the original air date. I believe that will change as advertisers catch up with the real world.

Geronimo45
May 10, 2007, 11:39 PM
Guess they will give it a second try at another season.
Seems that nearly every TV show ever made runs two seasons in the USA. In the UK, on the other hand, it seems that even the very popular shows have a short life.

Logan5
May 10, 2007, 11:56 PM
Pretty much all the gun related activity in the finale was sub-moronic. I wouldn't want to squat behind a Buick with a scoped Remigton and let a few hundred guys fan out over 250 yards, set up their M-60's, and concentrate their fire on my position, while I was supported by some guy behind a stack of bycicle tires. I guess the EMP took out all of Jericho's shovels?
And then there was the belated "Maybe Jake should move to high ground?" moment... What did he do with that Ranger manual, rub it on his forehead? Seems nothing penetrated.

Kaylee
May 11, 2007, 12:28 AM
Logan.. :D

Yeah, if the tactics are so transparently bad even I can shake my head in disbelief, that's some pretty sorry planning. :)

Still though, it is an interesting story.

Logan5
May 11, 2007, 01:07 AM
Oh, I appreciate the show, but really... if there's ever a giant emergency where there's no need for effective leadership, or for everyone to pull together, or for someone who can fold a mean tinfoil hat, then I guess I can just stay home and read by the oil lamp, and wait for the candygram when it's all over, right? This sucker is no Lucifer's Hammer.

Maybe I could FedEx a copy of The Army Officer's Guide to the actor they had playing Colonel in this episode. IIRC he babbled something absurd like "I'm just a public servant, I can't make decisions." Is there a hypothetical OCS anywhere in our military that would graduate someone who would spout that kind of DMV line of BS? Seriously, a company grade officer, mid-nuclear war, effectively commands a unit while saying things like that to random strangers? Hollywood has some truly insane ideas.

ebd10
May 11, 2007, 02:01 AM
Jericho is mental junk food. To hide behind wooden pallets and old cars without setting some people up on the high ground, or setting up an X ambush from the hills on either side of the road, just goes to show how little Hollyweird knows about the military. Johnston Green was supposed to be an Army Ranger at one time, he should know about this stuff. Heck I was a Supply Clerk and I know about this stuff!

Caimlas
May 11, 2007, 06:38 AM
They really need to sack their director, choreographer, writer, or fact checker - whoever was responsible for the nonsense in episode 22 (and, furthermore, in the other episodes) needs to be sacked.

And then, after they're in the sack, the sack needs to be beaten.

I guess it's possible that the show is just horridly under-funded. But I doubt it. That last episode was painful it was so un-military. Most of the other episodes have been poorly orchestrated, missing any semblance of sense, bad props, poor directing, etc. - but at least they were mildly entertaining.

I'm guessing it's partially a symptom of the producer(s), director, and the writers/storyboard people. But that 'final battle' was... urg.

Jericho is mental junk food. To hide behind wooden pallets and old cars without setting some people up on the high ground, or setting up an X ambush from the hills on either side of the road, just goes to show how little Hollyweird knows about the military. Johnston Green was supposed to be an Army Ranger at one time, he should know about this stuff. Heck I was a Supply Clerk and I know about this stuff!

Dude, I'm a computer geek, and I know about this stuff! :P The only thing I can figure is that they were time/funds restrained, or some other such artificial limitation. Because this latest episode was Smokey and the Bandits quality, bad.

Titan6
May 11, 2007, 07:40 AM
Pretty awful stuff all around. I Still can not figure how the Gerald McRainey character got whacked. Were I walking next to a tank in a fire fight I would have it between me and the enemy. And the part where they put their weapons on the roof of the car with the open window going straight to the chest seemed pretty stupid. Cars are bad bullet stoppers anyway but to leave yourself open like that was giving me the willies. Everybody standing fully upright and walking around in the open like a church picnic.... Good thing it is TV.

The whole shooting the home made mortar round out of the MBT gun was also too much. Why not just drive the tank around and show them what ''crunchie'' means? The bad guys had no heavy weapons or explosives so no way of stopping it anyway. What happened to the other town? Did they suddenly run out of mortars? Otherwise it would have gone something like ''Mass troops in the open, fire for effect. Repeat''. End of war. I could go on but what would be the point? This is TV.

Travis McGee
May 11, 2007, 08:10 AM
I watched a few early episodes and quit. Obviously the scripts are written by quiche-eating Hollywood types who have never shot a gun in their lives, or been deeper in the woods than a half day hike. It's only use is in spurring this type of discussion, but as far as anything near reality, the show is a total joke. The men still shave, the ladies put on makeup and have lovely shampooed hair, weeks after Armageddon. There's even still beer down at the watering hole. The show is a total joke.

budney
May 11, 2007, 08:16 AM
Militias work against mobs. They do not work against professional armies...

I think you're speaking specifically of direct confrontation. The Iraqi and Afghan insurgencies are holding their own, and the Afghans held out against the Russians long enough to drive them out in the end.

--Len.

budney
May 11, 2007, 08:19 AM
So that is why I cringe when I hear guys bragging how they are going to use their tricked-out synthetic stock SKS with a red dot to hold off the invading Chinese or UN army. Firearms are good for personal self defense, but we need to be realistic about their use by random civilians vs a real army.

Well, true enough--but that isn't how civilian defense works. Civilian defense works by arming (nearly) everyone, as in Switzerland or Israel. The Chinese must then decide whether it's worth fighting to the last man. And it never is. Even the Nazis didn't opt to fight a war of extermination.

--Len.

therealsteamer
May 11, 2007, 09:19 AM
From Here.. http://www.neardeathexperiments.com/smf/index.php?topic=1626.0


With what they had to work with they did a piss poor job...

Sure they put sand bags in front of the "car barricades"... one bag thick... that might stop a 5.56 at distance, but a .308 or better... VERY doubtful .. at most you are getting 10 inches of protection... AND the cars were empty.. nothing in the inside... Dead air will not stop a bullet... At other emplacements they had guys crouched behind a single layer of standing wooden pallets... You have a good .22 and you are gonna destroy whomever is foolish enough to mistake concealment for cover... They had shovels and enough time to build even the most basic of fighting positions..

They obviously had several high caliber scoped hunting rifles.. We know they had a few working radios.. WHY did they not use some sort of scout/sniper/recon element... Also placing these elements in favorable/concealed positions on the hill sides, with their fire directed into the valley would have been obvious to even a hollywood screenwriter... Also there were several guys with M14/M1As.. these guys could have been used for mid range engagement...

As piss poor as it may sound..... When the Jericonians were able to scare the New Bernholes away after the first engagement WHY did they not keep firing at them. These guys had already given notice they were out to kill the people of Jericho... The Bull**** about letting your enemy retreat to fight another day is idiotic... This is not a nice thing to think about do, but with what is/was on the line you have to be willing to make and accept VERY difficult decisions...

Now that Johnston is dead only Jake and Hawkins know of the access to the keyhole sats... Now Jake will be the defacto .mil type commander for Jericho.. I don't think he will always make the best decisions or be the most even keeled leader they have but at least he will do SOMETHING.

With the US Military entering the picture, with the developments of the "bald feller", things should get very interesting or begin to suck very fast.

The shot of Hawkins perched on the tank watching the train had a bit of an ominous feel to it... When the helos flew over it had a very oninous feel to it....


With the right leadership and clearer thinking it seems to me that things could have been planned much better

On the topic of "Hasty Militias".... There should have been no hasty militia at all... This should have been planned for and enacted months ago... I find it hard to believe that this was not done...

lionking
May 11, 2007, 11:05 AM
yeah I always watch the show.Jericho and Lost are the only 2 I do.

there is alot of stupid things that happen but still it keeps my attention.US military entering the picture?,did you see the flag they were flying?Roque elements it seems.

Had to laugh when they used one of the mortar rounds in the tank....and just standing behind a barricade...Id be prone under cover,you cant hit what you cant see or at least a smaller target but anyway.The high ground,they could have shot up the trucks before they dismounted.

miko
May 11, 2007, 11:45 AM
Here are a few comments, some based on a practical experience.

Militia effectiveness
Militia armed with battle/deer rifles can be very effective against an army - as long as it doesn't try to pretend is an army.
Generally, militia should not try to hold fixed objectives against a prepared army assault. But then again, special forces and paratroopers are not effective against an army while holding fixed objectives.

In many situations where the army and militia are not screwing up by the numbers, army in general is at a great disadvantage to militia and military only has so much special forces to go around. Not that militia would not sport plenty of ex-SF guys, if push came to shove.


Movies
Real warfare is amazingly unspectacular. When I was a tank crew, the significant part of my attention was keeping track of the two tanks right and left to mine - supposedely separated by 150-300 feet.
Locating the enemy could be just as hard. We had cases when the opposing tank batallion lines (30+ units) mutually penetrated (simultaneous assault, assault/defence) and ended up in teh rear of each other and most commanders/gunners have not seen an "enemy" tank.

In infantry combat it's even worse. One can take part in a pitched battle at stone-throwing range with dozens of people on each side and not see an enemy once, unless you count occasional muzzle flashes that might just be friendlies. Of course an experienced fighter has ways of detecting what's going on but as far as silver screen experience goes, you might just as well have soundtrack only.

miko

tomstrains
May 20, 2007, 10:56 AM
Anyone have a guess what helicopters were flying over in the end?

I was a reservist for 12 years & can't seem to identify them. They look like an English Wessex.

They are certainly not a Hind, Kamov, Bell (Huey or Cobra), Sikorsky (blackhawk, nighthawk, etc...). Not a CH-46 type either.

~~tom!

HarryB
May 20, 2007, 11:09 AM
We will never no the outcome now, CBS canceled this show

BGlaze250
May 20, 2007, 12:03 PM
Yeah, it's disappointing.

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