UK-legal silenced AR


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Fosbery
May 4, 2007, 03:05 PM
For those wondering how they work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0J1xBVpz3s

(as the title says, this is a test fire of PMC and Winchester .223 ammo - as you can probably tell, it didn't like the Winchester so much)

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Afy
May 4, 2007, 03:22 PM
Which genius in the UK decided that Semi Auto/Auto rifles need to be converted to single shot? :banghead:

Viva La France... :neener:

morcoth
May 4, 2007, 03:30 PM
Hmm, I think he single shotted it on purpose, to aid in the silencing.

other than that, Ok.

Morcoth

Fosbery
May 4, 2007, 03:45 PM
Semi-autos are illegal here. Except .22 rimfire ones. The 'UK-legal' bit comes from the straight-pull action, not the type of silencer (they're pretty widely available here).

Still 2 Many Choices!?
May 4, 2007, 03:49 PM
That poor neutered AR:what: !!

nwilliams
May 4, 2007, 03:58 PM
On the outdoor channel a while back (I can't remember which program it was) they were doing a special on silenced weapons at Gunsite I believe it was. The guy was shooting a silenced AR and had to recharge it after each shoot, he explained that the ammo had less powder in it to keep the noise level down, but in its weakend state couldn't eject on its own so each shot had to be extracted manually after each shot.

It looks to me like that AR system has been modified to accommodate the underpowered load for shooting silenced, the charging handle was moved to make it easier to charge after each shoot.

This is what I see I could be wrong.

Zak Smith
May 4, 2007, 04:06 PM
Semi-auto AR's are illegal in the U.K., so don't draw much connection between the suppression and the action type.

Fosbery
May 4, 2007, 04:06 PM
Nah, although I suppose it does make shooting down loaded rounds easier it is just to avoid the ban on fullbore semi-autos.

illspirit
May 4, 2007, 04:09 PM
Nice looking rifle you got there Fosbery. But speaking of how they work, how do they work? As in, what's needed for a UK legal build? Is a regular build sans gas tube enough? Or do you need a barrel without a gas port and/or an upper with no hole for the tube?

Bartholomew Roberts
May 4, 2007, 04:34 PM
That is one of the better videos I've seen as far as accurately capturing the sound of a suppressed .223. You can hear the bullet flight noise as it travels away from the mic. Which model suppressor is that out of curiousity?

Fosbery
May 4, 2007, 05:19 PM
Sans gas tube is fine.

However, you can get another sort of UK-legal AR, which do have a gas tube, only without a magazine well! These eject automatically and lock the bolt back. Insert a new round, release the bolt and away you go. This is legal because UK law specifies "self-loading" as opposed to "semi-auto". It's an interesting proposition that you could own the rifle shown, with a standard AR lower, and the rifle I just described, with a standard AR upper, and have the components to build a semi-auto AR...but be unable to do so because of the law.

I don't know what model suppresor it is I'm afraid, as I am not the shooter :p

Odd Job
May 4, 2007, 05:38 PM
Here's a Southern Gun Company 9mm rifle, manually loading. Pushing the grip forward or pulling the rail tab back (both arrowed, showing direction of movement) is the same as pulling the charging handle.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Rifle9mmManually-loadingSouthernGun.jpg

SaMx
May 4, 2007, 07:12 PM
I've heard of the "lever action" UK ARs. What's interesting is that it looks like it has 1911 grip panels on it. I've also heard of a "semi-semiauto." The bolt locks back after each shot and you have to press a button to release it. Is this true?

Bartholomew Roberts
May 4, 2007, 07:50 PM
Seems like having the bolt on the left side would be easier for right-handed shooters. You could cycle the action without breaking your firing grip.

Fosbery
May 4, 2007, 08:37 PM
SaMx, yes a UK company was developing an MP5 clone that would eject the case but lock the bolt back after every shot. A bolt release would be positioned somewhere easily accesible like, oh I dunno, on the trigger :evil:

Unfortunately, legal problems from HK put a stop to it I believe.

Bartholemew, I think most would say they prefer it on the right hands side... it works just like a Swiss K31. It's actually much better than most bolt guns because you can cycle the action without breaking your sight picture (and of course it's a LOT quicker).

sterling180
May 6, 2007, 03:00 PM
All of that rubbish 18 years ago,about there not being any need for semi-auto centrefires,is what it is.ARs due to their reliability and durability have been popular rifles,amongst pest-controllers and deer hunters.The British Deer Society certainly got it wrong back then,because at the end of the day,a rifle is a rifle and any type of rifle can be used to kill-if used for that purpose.

Maybe they should see how popular they are and how foolish,they were back then.

That poor neutered AR
Exactly,but unfortunately we UK shooters are dealing with pig-ignorant people,who hate semi-auto guns.It's better that way,in that format, otherwise like the Australians,we would have gone without those straight-pulls and lever-actions-resulting in us having to use semi-customised conventional-looking bolts,with extended mags,to replace the black rifles.However these are still used and it is cheaper,to buy a black rifle variant,than to order an Armalon custom rifle.

Which genius in the UK decided that Semi Auto/Auto rifles need to be converted to single shot?
After the 1988 act was passed,in 1989,we had a few diehard,ex-black rifle shooters over here who wrote to Olympic Arms and Sturm Ruger,informing them of the change in legislation after the Hungerford Massacre.Those guys,wanted a practical rifle,like the ARs,chambered in the same ammo,but instead of an semi-auto action,they asked for a bolt-action,where the cocking-handle,would be cocked after each shot was fired-resulting in a UK-legal,get around the ban,rifle.

Sturm Ruger and Olympic Arms agreed,by writing back to those UK practical shooters,stating that they would manufacture a UK-legal version,for the UKs market and any other countries market,whose governments either banned or forbade the use of semi-autos.Rugers M-14 variant was the Ruger M-14 B.A.O.(Bolt-Action Operated.)rifle,that looks like the original,except for the action.

Saiga also agreed to make UK-legal variants,that are both cheap and reliable and they look like their semi-auto cousins,too,because they are the same rifles,but with different actions.

sterling180
May 6, 2007, 03:44 PM
By the way Fosbery,have you ever considered using that video clip,as an argument,for the justification of the revokation,of the 1988 act?

Don't you agree that,there is only a few seconds difference,between a semi-auto AR and a straight-pull one,after watching that video clip?

To think that they included pump-action centrefires to the ban too,is incredible.

What a bunch of idiots some people are.

Viva La France...

Their time will come eventually,just like our time has been and gone.

Fosbery
May 6, 2007, 04:13 PM
Perhaps, but die-hard anti-gunners would just say "Oh my god, we need to ban straight-pull/bolt-action rifles too!" ;)

Coronach
May 6, 2007, 07:24 PM
Yeah. The antis answer to it is "Oh my, we should ban them, too."

ConfuseUs
May 7, 2007, 12:58 AM
Interesting. Are all the parts in the straight pull action the same as if it were gas-operated? It seems like it would make manufacture cheaper to just leave the parts the same except for adding a bolt handle, leaving the barrel without a gas port and deleting the gas tube. That leaves only a smidge of finagling to convert it to semi-auto. :)

Bartholomew Roberts
May 7, 2007, 10:04 AM
Bartholemew, I think most would say they prefer it on the right hands side... it works just like a Swiss K31.

Actually, now that I have paid more attention to the design, it looks like having it on the left would thwack a right handed shooter in the jaw/nose every time the weapon cycled since the bolt handle appears to be fixed to the bolt carrier group and reciprocates with the BCG.

Fosbery
May 7, 2007, 11:13 AM
Nah, I shoot them left handed sometimes (thanks to HM Armed Forces I'm totally ambidextrous when it comes to firearms) and it's fine. Even if my head was in the way, since it's entirely manually operated I could just move it out the way as I pull the bolt back.

Mk VII
May 7, 2007, 12:18 PM
many of the AR-15 based arms have now departed far from the original, with fatter barrels, no front sight/gas block, and many other changes.

Odd Job
May 7, 2007, 01:17 PM
One thing that ticks me off, is the fact that I can't find a 9mm rifle like the one in the picture. Southern Gun Company doesn't make those anymore and the guy who owns that one isn't selling any time soon :(
Mind you, I'd settle for any 9mm rifle, even a single shot (within reason of course).

Fosbery
May 7, 2007, 02:15 PM
Armalon do Enfield carbines in every pistol caliber you can imagine (literally, they'll do anything you want to order special). 9mm is standard.

http://www.armalon.com/pc.shtml

http://www.armalon.com/images/pcflag3_scaled.jpg

MD_Willington
May 7, 2007, 02:17 PM
They do the same thing with Saiga rifles in the UK, straight pull bolt rifle.

http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-special_offer.htm


Brand new Saiga M4 (fixed buttstock) and Saiga M3 (folding buttstock) rifles are civilian versions of Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifle, manufactured by legendary IZHMASH factory. The AK-103 features all-black polymer (or laminated wood) furniture with fixed buttstock - the early AK-74 look-alike or black plastic (or laminated wood) foregrips & skeleton folding stock - Afghanistan-era AKS-74 look-alike. In accordance with the UK law requirements, this rifle was manufactured as a straight pull / single shot rifle with magazine capacity of 10 rounds, convertable into 30 rounds. Our package includes: two 10-round in 30-round body polymer magazines, canvas sling, cleaning accessories kit, cleaning rod and manuals in English

Soap
May 7, 2007, 02:33 PM
Cool rifle. Is it tough to source 5.56/.223 there?

Odd Job
May 7, 2007, 04:34 PM
Thanks Fosbery, I'll check those guys out. It's unlikely I'll buy one of their rifles though, at almost 900 before optional extras :eek:

Fosbery
May 7, 2007, 05:16 PM
Federal .223 is about $16 per hundred in your money but better stuff can get up to $21, $25 etc. Milsurp ammo is closer to $7 per hundred.

Mannix
May 7, 2007, 05:37 PM
$7 per hundred.
You mean ? About the cheapest I can find is $18(about 9.50) per hundred, and that's if I buy steel cased ammo by the 1000rnd case.

rkh
May 7, 2007, 05:44 PM
Milsurp ammo is closer to $7 per hundred


Those are incredible prices. :what:

Group buy anyone? At rates like that, it might be worth the transatlantic freight costs.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 7, 2007, 05:53 PM
Group buy anyone? At rates like that, it might be worth the transatlantic freight costs.

At $7 per 100 it is definitely worth the freight costs; but is it worth the import/export licensing, paperwork and hassle costs? Cheapest brass cased 55gr FMJ I have found is Remington UMC for $27 per 100, followed by Federal AE223 at $32 per 100. $7 per 100 surplus and less hassle for suppressors. I never thought I would be envying shooters in the UK ;)

Fosbery
May 7, 2007, 08:52 PM
Whoops! I completely did my conversions wrong. Instead of doubling the number (from sterling to dollars) I halved it!

Surplus ammo is infact $28.

Sorry! :o

Exposure
May 7, 2007, 11:30 PM
That was cool!

I am really impressed with how fast you can work that action. What an interesting way to obey the law and yet still have a very fast cyclic rate. I think a shooter would be more accurate, and also more deadly, running through a magazine in this method than just pulling the trigger as fast as possible.

It's sad that the laws on suppressors here in the States are the way they are. I was at the local Spring machine gun shoot here and a guy had a suppressed M16 that sounded exactly like that, very neat! Thanks for sharing!

I enjoy these posts from the UK shooters, you guys certainly are a clever bunch with the way you navigate through all those crippling laws. Keep up the good work, and keep those cool videos coming!

Afy
May 8, 2007, 05:57 AM
Even at that price it is very cheap.

Ammo around here in France is about $28 for 20 for milsurp.
Now if I could only figure out how to move ammo across the channel it would be fun...

Maybe an ammo cruise... like the booze cruise in reverse?

Fosbery
May 8, 2007, 11:56 AM
Here's a carbine-length UK-legal AR in, of all things, .300 Whisper!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ypVLRd1Xg

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