Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 08:51 PM
My dad ordered a single shot .25-06 and it's in a gun store down in San Antonio, we'll go pick it up as soon as we get the money. I am not familiar with the .25-06. I intend to use it for long-range deer and hog hunting. By long range I mean past 500 yards. Within 400 yards, I'm comfortable with my .223, and within about 550yd with my .243. Can Anyone give me an idea on the capabilities of the .25-06? I know it's got more in the brass than my usual deer hunting calibers, and longer range. About how far good a pretty good shot hit with it? I know the rifle itself is very accurate as I have used it in other calibers, I just need to know about the round itself.

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May 4, 2007, 08:55 PM
500 yards is roughly 5 telephone poles apart.

May 4, 2007, 09:44 PM
If you're shooting at deer with a .223 from 400 yards, I suggest you first get a lesson on hunting ethics. That's just plain irresponsible.

May 4, 2007, 09:54 PM
I'm not too familiar with it, but the .25-06 is a smokin' round, and will put down a deer much more humanely than your .223s at that range, or your .243 at that range, either. I would personally recommend that you replace your other guns with the .25-06, because depending on the platform, it should perform much better than either of the other rounds both in the areas of "at range" and terminal performance. Gimme a day or two, and if the walking dictionaries haven't answered your questions to your satisfaction, and I should be able to tell you more than you ever wanted to hear.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 09:59 PM
Or maybe all it takes is bullet placement? The M16A2 with FMJ's has an effective range for a point target (a human) of 600 meters. Why would soft points not be able to take a deer at 400yd? And fired from my Remington 700, they allways go were I want. It's not irresponsible, it makes perfect sense. The problem is, most people ignore the facts and stick with the narrowminded "Big Bore" theory. If you can't shoot well enough to take a deer at that range with a more than adequate cartrige, maybe you are the one who should reconsider the ethicsof going out in the woods and risking wounding game. In Central Texas, deer greatly out number people. We get 5 tags a year. In the last six years, I have killed 29 white tails, 25 with my .223, 2 with my .243, 1 with a .222, and one with a compound bow. The only one that ran more than 50yd was the one I shot with my bow, she ran 80yd.

May 4, 2007, 10:01 PM
25-06 is a 25 caliber shoots about in the neighborhood of a 90 to 120 grain bullet if I remember right. It's a great caliber but if I was wanting to shoot things at the ranges your talking about I would opt for something heavier for more down range energy.

May 4, 2007, 10:04 PM
At 500 yards, the .25-06 has lost a lot of energy. Will it kill a deer? Sure! Furthermore, it is a very accurate round, provided that the rifle is sound. Check the ballistic software programs and keep your energy at impact between 1,000 to 1,200 FPSI. I shot a whitetail deer at 525 yards with a .257 Wea. Mag. It was standing still, zero wind, 50ish degrees, sunny, perfect conditions. I am not convinced that I would try the same with a .25-06 Rem. Check the ballistics. Compare the two. In fact, I can tell you, I would not. That range is considerable.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 10:05 PM
Thanks Doc. We stress that a bullet in the right place will do it. before every hunting season, we make sure are rifles are sighted in. If they cant hit an acorn at 100yd, we resight them. And my dad won't let me hunt if he thinks I might wound and not kill.

May 4, 2007, 10:17 PM
i agree strongly with shadow shock it doesnt matter really how powerful the gun is but the placement of the bullet

May 4, 2007, 10:20 PM
I like to have a little extra gun. Yes if you make a good shot... However, anytime you fire a shot you're dealing with probabilities. It is preferrable to have something that is a touch overkill in case something goes wrong. 223 on deer at the limit of the "effective" ranges is asking for trouble (unless you don't care about actually killing the deer and are just shooting at stuff for the hell of it).

25-06 at 500+ yards, I'll pass thank you. 7mm mag, now you're talking.

<400 yards, sure.

The DC sniper used an AR , and he didn't have 100% clean kills all the time.

What the military considers "effective", and what is consider ethical for hunting are two different things.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 10:23 PM
Thank you deehohunter. as a matter of fact, my grandpa has killed more deer in the woods of East Texas with a .22lr than most cityslickers will ever see in their life. This was before the ban on deer hunting with rimfires though, or I would use .22lr a lot too

May 4, 2007, 10:39 PM
How old are you two? You sound like teenagers.

May 4, 2007, 10:45 PM

Stop encouraging this.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 11:19 PM
Thanks to those who gave me information. And to those who doubt the use of .223 on deer at range, I respect your opinions. You stick to your guns, I'll stick to mine.

May 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
I wouldn't use that on hogs, with hogs you need to crush bone down here, maybe on <50 lbs pigs. I have shot 150 lb hogs 5 (guess, massive adrenaline when you realize it isn't going down) times with a .223 that keep running. They don't bleed like deer. Low velocity super heavy rounds have always done it for me. You go pig hunting and you don't know if you'll see 45 pounder or a 350 pound beast. .25-06 single shot against a mammoth feral hog is a losing proposition.

I do love the .25-06 for deer, it always seemed really loud to me though.

May 4, 2007, 11:32 PM
Okay, after this, I won't feed the trolls anymore.

Shadowshock, please tell me that you didn't register under a different name to support your previous post.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 11:37 PM
no I did not, although i just found out that one of my freinds registered without my consent to support me. I wish I hadn't told him abt The High Road now because I was being serious and now I've been undermined by my own freind as most of the stuff he said isn't true. I apologize for leading him here and meddling in a place were he doesn't belong. btw Tyron, please do not post anymore replies here

May 4, 2007, 11:42 PM
I'm pretty sure, 99.999999% that the d.c.snipers used a .223. I lived there at the time.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 11:46 PM
TrueBlue, I only use the .223 wen I'm out of harm's way. If they are close enough to hurt me, I draw my M1911. and Florida boy, he did use a .223 Bushmaster, deehohunter doesn't know what he's talking about.

May 4, 2007, 11:49 PM
.223 will easily kill deer at close range, especially down here. Deer in TX are scrawny runts compared to what you guys have up north. However, I still prefer to use my .30-06.

The DC "snipers" used .223 (out of an AR15), not .22LR.

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 11:54 PM
deer are a lot smaller here than up north. And the D.C. shooter doesn't even deserve to be called a sniper. He took potshots at innocent civillians. A true sniper hones his skills for years and has no rival except for other snipers. the D.C. guy was simply a terrorist who had a slightly above average level of marksmanship

May 5, 2007, 04:02 AM
a 25 .06 is a quarter bore, 30.06, bullets are usually found 90 to 117 grains. they are fast, and flat, the only bullets that are faster and flatter are the ones that came from true wildcatter stuff, or weatherby stuff.you should be able to knock over any deer or such that you see with it, however I dont know if I would have the guts to use a single shot for hog hunting. better put the bullet in it's neck or ear.

May 5, 2007, 09:01 AM
The .223 is legal for deer in Michigan. I personally wouldn't use it for deer, but there many hunters who do load up with 70 grain bullets and are successful. For fact, it does possess the sectional density to get the job done. I like larger bullets.

I really enjoy the many times that I read here at THR about how professionally we take our shots. It is refreshing. Thanks all for that fact. If we are going to harvest an animal, we should try to take it as quick and clean as is possible (preaching to the choir). :)

With my .25-06 (a Weatherby Vanguard VGX), for varmints, I liked using the 75 Gn. Hollow Points, and the 85 Gn. Nosler Ballistic Tip Boattails. For deer, I liked the 100 Gn Nosler partition. They were wicked.

With my .257 Wea. Mag. (a Weatherby Mark V, Fibermark), for varmints, I liked using the exact same projectiles: 75 Gn. Hollow Points, and the 85 Gn. Nosler Ballistic Tip Boattails. For deer, I liked the 100 Gn Nosler partition. The sole difference was velocity, but velocity nets greater reach.

May 5, 2007, 05:16 PM
The 25-06 has a rep as an exceptionally flat shooting chambering but when you run the numbers the large deer appropriate bullets won't keep up with a .270 with 130s.

The 100 grain loadings smoke and there's probably no finer setup for open country antelope and smaller deer.

May 5, 2007, 06:41 PM
that would make sense, as the 270 is a necked 30.06 as well, I think 100 to 110 bullets though would knock out any deer, and get you really far out there, if need be.

Shadow Shock
May 5, 2007, 11:12 PM
As far as the round will go accuratley, is as far as I can kill. I primarily aim for the neck, so eithier it's a clean miss, or they drop. At longer ranges I aim either right behind the shoulder blade, so it goes straight to the heart, or the center of the shoulder so it breakes the bone and they can't run. I've never had a deer run off on me. A lot of hunters aim for the rib cage which is idiotic as all the organs you need to hit to drop a deer quick are in the head, neck, and shoulder.

May 5, 2007, 11:58 PM
Nearly all the rest of the country considers a .223 to be a varmint round, and not suitable for deer. While virtually any bullet will kill, sport hunting should be done with rounds that will do the job humanely.

Using the .223 for deer (where legal) requires both pin point accuracy, AND proper bullet selection. I use the .223 for varmints, using bullets in the 52gr-55gr range. These bullets are designed to expand violently when they encounter minimal resistance. A twig, or even a blade of grass can cause them to "blow up" These bullets are not at all suitable for deer hunting, they lack the penetration needed to reach vital organs. They are capable of creating a massive surface wound, which is not a good thing, being both inhumane, and damaging to the meat.

Heavier bullets are constructed for more penetration, but here you run into a couple of problems. One is that some of these bullets are intended for target use, and the other is the loss of velocity, particularly at extended ranges. Putting a .22 caliber hole in a deer will kill humanely, only if the shot is perfect. And perfect shots at extended ranges are on the tough side of difficult. Mostly because of wind drift.

Back when the Army issued me an M16A1, they said the max range of the 5.56mm was 460 meters, and we only shot to distances of 300 meters. Here's something to think about, using the GI 55gr bullet (not legal for hunting) for comparison, by the time it gets to 600 meters, it has the energy of a .22LR at the muzzle. Even though heavier bullets will retain energy better, this is still not a good idea for deer, even the small Texas ones.

Now the .25-06 is a different thing altogether. It will launch a bullet weighing nearly twice that of a .223, at nearly the same speed. This translates into a much higher amount of retained energy at long range, more than enough for humane kills. The .25-06 does this with a much larger case, holding nearly twice the amount of powder, and so has a greater blast and recoil than the .223. It also has the advantage of being legal for deer hunting all over the country (where ever rifles are allowed).

The ranges you state you plan to shoot at would be considered ridiculous by everyone I know, but if you are good enough to make those shots, well, perhaps you ought to be shooting competitively.

I have always felt that if you couldn't get within 300 yards of a game animal (or less), you should write yourself a letter explaning why you had to shoot at such a long distance. In triplicate. Now, shooting varmints is another matter. The sport in varmint hunting is making the long shot, not stalking close as it is with deer. I grew up hunting deer in the north woods, and woodchucks in the open fields. And that is my personal basis for defining "sport". Is it different in Texas?

May 6, 2007, 12:13 AM
If you take the time to crunch the numbers you'll find that at 500 yds a 120grn bullet from a 25-06, a 130grainer from a 270win and a 180grain slug from a 30-06 are all within 5 inches of each other. With the 270 shooting the flattest and the 30-06 carrying almost twice the energy of the quarter bore.

Load the 30-06 with a slippery 150grain bullet and it WILL shoot just as flat as the 25-06 out to 500yds while carrying almost 500 ft lbs MORE energy that the 25-06.

Heavy and aerodynamic <30-06> is a much better suited to long range big game hunting than light and fast (25-06)

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 12:18 AM
I use 55gr softpoints, Remington Core-Lokt to be exact. Down here we can get long-range shots. While uncommon, there are places where you can get 1000yd shots. I wouldn't recomend trying it though. And to give you an idea of me and my dad's skills, we shoot acorns off of trees at 100yd. An acorn is smaller than a deer's eye. December 31 of 2006, I shot an 8-point buck at 300yd with my .223. The bullet had hit less than 1/4 in from my point of aim and had dropped him in his tracks. If I can figure out how, I'll put a pic on soon. No deer I have ever shot with the .223 has gone more than 30yd. IMHO those who don't have enough confidence in their shooting ability to take a deer at 300yd with a .223 should either go down to Texas and get some teenage redneck teach them how to shoot, or stay out of the woods and keep the game safe.

May 6, 2007, 12:23 AM
we shoot acorns off of trees at 100yd. An acorn is smaller than a deer's eye.

YOU AND YOUR DAD! Both need to practice better firearms saftey:mad: Just where exactly do you think those bullets go after hitting that acorn.


Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 12:24 AM
we do this on a 160 acre ranch in the middle of nowhere with a steep hill as a backdrop. The owner and his wife are usually with us and if not, they are 200 feet higher than us, 1500yd to the right. the closest other people are at Lance Armstrong's house, 150ft higher and almost 3000yd to the left of us.

May 6, 2007, 12:27 AM
160 acres is NOTHING to a high powered rifle fired in an upward arc and for some strange reason I don't believe for a second that the background to your sight picture of an acorn is dirt.:rolleyes:

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 12:30 AM
I'll get a pic up as soon as I can. You seem to forget (or you just don't know) that Central Texas has short tree's, and it's not called the HILL COUNTRY for nothing

May 6, 2007, 03:24 AM
Considering that I've lived in the Texas hill country, I'd still say that some of the described practices are rather reckless.

.223 was fine for the loose exotic deer in the area I lived in, though shot placement was critical. Needless to say, I'd not in good conscience attempt it at the ranges discussed.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 11:08 AM
The old Marine who owns the propeterty is a saftey freak when it comes to gus. Believe me, if he thought we were doing anything unsafe, he'd tell us to get the **** off of his property.

May 6, 2007, 11:33 AM
he does anyone know about the MOSSBERG 100 ATR is the one with the synthetic stock and its got the floating barrel i think its a really good deal and am looking to get it in the 30-06 calibre if any one has any information on it could you plzz tell me

May 6, 2007, 12:14 PM
The old Marine who owns the propeterty is a saftey freak when it comes to gus. Believe me, if he thought we were doing anything unsafe, he'd tell us to get the **** off of his property.

Does he know you guys are shooting acorns out of trees with high powered rifles?:rolleyes:

May 6, 2007, 12:27 PM
I don't think you'll get anywhere discussing with somebody the effectiveness of 25-06 at >500 yards when they consider the 22lr adequate.

May 6, 2007, 12:34 PM
I don't think you'll get anywhere arguing with somebody regarding the effectiveness of 25-06 at >500 yards when the consider the 22lr adequate.

As bad as I hat to admit it you've probably made the most intelligent statement in this entire thread.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 12:46 PM
yes Mr. Caldwell often shoots with us (sometimes with his AR, sometimes with our rifles). and the .22lr is only adequate if you shoot deer in the eye or right behind the ear, not a standard shoulder shot. As I have stated before, we believe shot placement like a religion

May 6, 2007, 12:55 PM
The old Marine who owns the propeterty is a saftey freak when it comes to gus. Believe me, if he thought we were doing anything unsafe, he'd tell us to get the **** off of his property.

yes Mr. Caldwell often shoots with us (sometimes with his AR, sometimes with our rifles). and the .22lr is only adequate if you shoot deer in the eye or right behind the ear, not a standard shoulder shot. As I have stated before, we believe shot placement like a religion

Then he's not much of a safety freak if he's shooting up into trees with you guys:eek:

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 01:45 PM
The old Marine gunsmith consters shooting at acorns 6-7ft off the ground from the hood of a truck with a steep hill that rises several hundred feet as a backdrop to be a lot safer than his unit's rifle range in Vietnam. Two people died on that range, and one had his hand blown off by a .45. The only thing getting hurt here, are dirt and acorns.

May 6, 2007, 03:44 PM
Shot placement is important, Yes. Here's the deal, deer don't hold still, wind isn't completely predictable, and you are human. If you think that all of your shots are always going to be perfect, then you haven't hunted enough. That's why you use something that is arguably overkill, and take shots that have an acceptable margin of error.

You'd also be amazed at how well a deer's skull can deflect bullets.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 03:55 PM
I have missed several times, each time I saw the dirt kick up in the scope but still checked the area within a 100yd radius for blood and hair. Every deer I have hit, had dropped after a few yards (if they moved at all). And the little 55grain soft point has a habit of mushrooming, tumbling and fragmenting, haking it difficult to distinguish organs out of th mush. One deer I shot in the spine, the bullet destroyed his heart, lungs, and many non-vital organs before exiting his left hindquarter. when I opened him up to feild dress him, blood squirted all over my face. Not exactly pleasant, but it was funny

May 6, 2007, 04:14 PM
"Within 1/4" of my point of aim??? What, were you aiming at a tick on the deer's side???? Look, I'm glad that you're the Buffalo Bill of deer hunters, but really, 500 yard shots at that many deer??? I could understand if it was an absolute trophy buck, but maybe you guys need to think of moving your stand to get a little closer to the action. That, or get a nice 7mm Rem mag, 300 Win Mag, or maybe a 50 BMG (or at least a 308).

May 6, 2007, 04:18 PM
How good are you at judging distances? At 400 yards what would do you think your error would be (+- X yards)?

May 6, 2007, 06:43 PM
""Within 1/4" of my point of aim??? What, were you aiming at a tick on the deer's side???? Look, I'm glad that you're the Buffalo Bill of deer hunters, but really, 500 yard shots at that many deer???"

LOL...Remington's own ballistic chart shows a 55 grain pointed soft point, zeroed at 200 yards, drops 58.6" at 500 yards. So the deer would have to be standing on his hind legs to get your cross-hairs on him...unless he was standing on his hind legs eating acorns!

May 6, 2007, 07:32 PM
Hi all, my name is Shadow Shock and I'm a troll....

Really, I don't think you are going to get many people here to pull off there BS filters long enough to believe most of your posts. Entirely too many responsible, knowledgable hunters and here to buy into bullcrap.

May 6, 2007, 07:39 PM
I recently purchased a Ruger #1 single shot in .25-06 from a neighbor as the price was right.
I'm working up reloads around 117 grain Sierras and Hornady bullets as the rifle will be used for deer hunting with some shots around 250 yards(realisticly) and I prefer the heavier bullets for that range.
I did well with a Model 70 Roberts at the same ranges so the .25-06 should do well also.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 08:49 PM
by my point of aim I don't mean where I actually put the crosshairs, I mean were I was aiming for. The deer I shot at 300yd I was holding the crosshais a few inches above his spine, and a little to the right to compensate for the wind. I would have never expected the bullet to hit so close to where I wanted it to, that's just the way it happened. and atblis, the range usualy within 20yd of what I estimate it to be. After we feild dress the deer, my dad (and anyone else there) estimates it also, then we pace it out. And I normally hunt from the ground, not stands. I find it easier to get comforatable, and I can use my favorite rest (my knee). I am not trying to act like the "Buffalo Bill of deer hunters" as krimme so subtly put it, I was simply asking for information on a caliber I am unframilliar with. I only listed my skills so I could get a comparative etimate of what I could do with the larger round. Instead I was assaulted with a hail of ignorance and bias that astounds me to hear coming from experienced hunters.

Brian Williams
May 6, 2007, 08:53 PM
A 223 is a varmint round as far as I am concerned. I can hardly tell what the sex of a deer is at 300 or 400 yards even with the fat Eastern Whitetails around here. I hope that you have a very good stand with a great rest for your rifle and a very good scope.

Otherwise, Welcome to THR.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 09:03 PM
I usually keep the magnification on my scope at 16x, although for those REALLY long shots, I turn it up all the way (24x). while not necesary it is very usefull. Look through a scope at that high magnification and you can see just how much your crosshairs are moving. What appears steady at 4x, can be moving like crazy at 16x. So if you get them steady at such a high magnification, you are minutley ajusting the aim of you rifle untill you can get it exactly were you want it. I have never used a benchrest in my life when shooting at a range. I allways use an improvised rest like I would find in the woods. my knee, a jacket on a table, the crotch of a tree, a stump or log, or even my hand pressed against the side of a tree with the rifle resting between the thumb ant tme index finger. they all work great although nothing I've used beats my dad's brown jacket from Tractor Supply balled up on a table or the hood of a truck. portable, very steady, and it lets you track targets as they walk across your feild of veiw. We use it to sight in and we use it in the woods. As for the .223 being a varmit cartyrige, I don't know how deer are were you live but down here, they're like fairly large great Danes

May 6, 2007, 10:03 PM
Hmmm. I might have bought +-50Yards at 400yards.

Well anyways, a range misjudgment of 25 yards either way (long or short) at 400 yards is an error of about 7" either high or low with a 223 55gr CLKT.

At 500 yards with a 25-06 +-25yards is about +- 8" with a 100gr CLKT.

That's enough to put you out of the vitals.

I'd invest in a laser range finder.

May 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
I'd invest in a laser range finder.

NO WAY then the stories wouldn't be nearly as entertaining.

May 6, 2007, 10:11 PM
That reminds me. I had a friend who used to tell outlandish stories. Personal favorite was the deer he "dropped" at 200 yards with 7 1/2 shot.

He always used to say "yeah it was that far, I stepped it off"

Well, one day we were shooting at fence boards (the neighbors fence no less) with his new 3.5" Mossy. It was hitting them pretty hard, so he's like "what's that, like 50 yards". My other friend and I looked at each other and started chuckling. It was about 20 feet. We designated a new unit of measurement called David yards.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 10:12 PM
I wish i could afford a laser range finder. And if at all posible, I try to sneak in as close to my target as possible. However I can't allways do that. That's when Long range comes in. and that's why I prefer to hunt from the ground. It's a lot harder to get out of a stand without being seen, than to simply bellycrawl through tall grass. However, when I have my .25-06, I can be more confident when I have no choice but to make a long shot. I passed up an 11-point buck early last season because he was in a bad spot on the other side of the top of a hill and all I could see was his head. Not wanting to mess up such a trophy, I tried to sneak closer, but he spotted me. My dad shot him a month later in the neck at 25yd with our .243

May 6, 2007, 10:16 PM
Instead I was assaulted with a hail of ignorance and bias that astounds me to hear coming from experienced hunters.

If you come in here like you did talking about how you want a rifle to shoot deer 500yds plus and bragging about shooting deer at 300yds with a .223, you shouldn't be surprised at all that experienced hunters are going to call your BS on it, and you don't have room to talk about ignorance. If you want to shoot that far and test your skills, stick to targets not live animals. There's no reason in the world you couldn't fill every tag every season at 150yds or less anywhere in Texas. I have for the last 20 or so years. Purposefully shooting at deer 500yds plus is not ethical hunting in many people's eyes.

However, when I have my .25-06, I can be more confident when I have no choice but to make a long shot

You ALWAYS have a choice whether or not to pull the trigger.

May 6, 2007, 10:17 PM

May 6, 2007, 10:23 PM
To answer your question, the 25-06 is leaps and bounds ahead of the 223 at any range.

I suggest downloading some ballistics software (Remington has some on their website), and playing around with it to figure out if you're really up to the task of long range shooting. The numbers they give are pretty good. If you're smart, you'll figure out that you should just get closer.

A misjudgment of 25 yards at 600 yards is about a foot difference in impact (with the 25-06). So if you insist on long range shooting, GET A LASER RANGE FINDER

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 10:25 PM
By ignorance, I mean people not accepting that a better expanding version of a cartrige, that's been combat proven for 4 decades against everyone from Vietnamese, to Somalis, to Iraqis, to Afgahnis, wouldn't be able to take a North American Whitetail. Does this make a lot of senseto everyone out there? And I only talked about my longrange kills so I could get info on the .25-06. Asin, "If this guy can take a whitetail at 300yd with a .223, how far should he be able to take one with the more powerful, flatter shooting .25-06?" And there is no point in telling BS stories to people I have never met, and probobly never will meet.

Art Eatman
May 6, 2007, 10:39 PM
I remember one time my uncle mounted a scope on a guy's rifle and then sighted it in for him. The standard deal for a .30-'06; two inches high at 100 yards.

The guy comes back, later, griping that there was a problem with the scope. He'd missed a deer at 300 yards!

So, Uncle Joe takes the rifle and ammo and the guy out to the benchrest.

"Yeah, that's 300 yards!" the guy said, looking at the target.

He was ready to fight before finally taking my uncle's word that no, it wasn't 300 yards, it was 100 yards. Surveyed. Three lengths of a surveyor's 100-foot chain.

Lotsa deer killed, out there at 300 yards. Some get missed, too.


May 6, 2007, 10:44 PM
You're argument is flawed. Hunters don't have the same standards for performance (much higher actually), or the same considerations that the military does. The military doesn't use the 5.56 because it is the best performing round. They also don't generally issue expanding hunting bullets.

Weight. I do not carry a couple hundred rounds of hunting ammo.
Training. Low recoil requires less rounds to train a new recruit.
Recoil. Rapid fire not needed for me so...
Tactics. I am not sure they're always interested in actually hitting targets. Suppression till you can get something better in there.
Killing Power. Again, I am not convinced the military actually wants a round that drops somebody on the spot. At least it isn't the top priority.

It's an optimization. It doesn't do anything the best, just good enough.

etc. etc.
And you should note that the debate about 5.56's performance is at longer ranges (anything past 300 yards really). It's generally accepted that it works okay at ranges where it has enough velocity to fragment.

With most capable deer rounds, 300 yards is usually about the point were things start to get interesting regarding drop.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 10:52 PM
300yd estimated by Myself, Leon White (my dad), and stephen Savory (property owner. Then Mr. Savory paced it out at exactly 298 yd. Oh did I mention that my dad did a lot of surveying when he was in the Sea Bee's (Naval Construction Battalions) and as his current civillian job as a contractor?

May 6, 2007, 10:54 PM
Dude, give it up. This conversation is going nowhere. Your outlandish stories are a little hard to believe.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 10:59 PM
I did not want the conversation to get to people bantering back and forth about my favorite round. However, thats what happened and I can't help but reply back. We're all to stubborn and our beliefs are to strongly rooted for anything we say to change anyone's mind. If gun owners wern't like that, the librals would have disarmed us long ago.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 6, 2007, 11:04 PM
Instead I was assaulted with a hail of ignorance and bias that astounds me to hear coming from experienced hunters.

It occurs to me that many of the hunters here have been hunting for more years than you have been alive. Perhaps if you are so well informed, you'd be better off making your own decisions on these issues instead of asking such poor ignoramuses whose 20 years of hunting experience conflicts with your own.

In the meantime, this thread does not seem to be going anywhere informative, so consider it closed.

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