Home defense long gun - which and why


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Dr_2_B
May 4, 2007, 10:22 PM
Family member owns these long guns and some handguns. He asked my opinion and I would value your opinions as well. Given these options only, which would you use for home defense long gun and why? He lives in a suburb with neighbors nearby.

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zero_chances
May 4, 2007, 10:28 PM
He owns which guns? A shot gun is generaly the best choice when neighbors are near by IMO.

kis2
May 4, 2007, 10:44 PM
i agree, shotgun rounds (of the pellet variety) are round, and therefore usually get less penetration (as compared to say a fmj) through walls and such, that might cause friendly hits. plus you can get a huge variety of ammunition, so theres a lot of flexibility there.

theres gonna be a lot of opinions on this though, and ive seen a couple of threads like this one, but i know how that asking for a friend stuff goes. i know my friend wouldnt be satisfied till someone answered for his particular situation.

Mannix
May 4, 2007, 10:48 PM
For short range stopping power use a 12 gauge.

Blakenzy
May 4, 2007, 10:48 PM
I voted for the AR15. 223 supposedly tends to fragment and limits overpenetration. The platform itself is light and handy, granted it has zero tactical addons. Followup shots are easy because of low recoil. I would use a 20rnd mag to reduce weight. It has to be light and lean.

Second place would be the shotgun because although very effective, I find it to be a bit more cumbersome and less ergonomic. Also, any effective load for the shotgun presents overpenetration issues. I don't consider the use of birdshot appropiate for defense of self and family.

Legionnaire
May 4, 2007, 10:49 PM
12 gauge. Great stopping power, and lots of flexibility through choice of ammo. Everything from light bird shot to heavy slugs.

benelli12
May 4, 2007, 10:51 PM
For HD, IMO, a shotgun is your best choice. Shotguns are not very versatile when it comes to long range hits, but at the HD range it is brutally effective. With a rifle, of course their is the issue of overpenetration, which is not a HUGE deal to me, and most of the rifles posted will most likely go through the average person.

With the rifle, if dealing with a derranged attacker, may not stop them as quickly as the shotgun at close range. With the shotgun, when properly loaded, will put almost any human down at a VERY high efficiancy rate within a 10-15ft range. Rifles are surely capable of this too, but you might as well use the close quarters to your advantage.

A load of 2 3/4 or 3" magnum #4BK to 00BK at that range, even if you dont hit them in the head or chest, will put any man down pretty quick. If you do hit the BG in the head or chest with a shotgun(@10-20ft) its over. period. In that case, you dont need follow up shots, because one hit is WAY more than enough.

IMO, I feel much more comfortable putting 600+ grains of lead towards a BG, than say a 55 grain HP from a 5.56.

blackhawk2000
May 4, 2007, 10:52 PM
Shotguns are good for shooting birds.

nyresq
May 4, 2007, 10:54 PM
Shotguns are good for shooting birds.


especially zombie birds trying to break into your house...:D

qbpc
May 4, 2007, 10:56 PM
Shotgun just the sound of "pumping a round in" will make a BG pee his pants.
Plus all the practical advatages.

A cop friend of mine stopped a forming riot with that sound.

BB

220_Swift
May 4, 2007, 11:00 PM
The shotty hands down, IMHO.

GigaBuist
May 4, 2007, 11:01 PM
I voted for the Sub2k but that's becuase it fits my following rule:

Your HD gun should be the one that you have run the most often at the range.

possum
May 4, 2007, 11:11 PM
i chose the shotgun, not because of the particular model, but because i think that the 12ga is the best in this scenario. i have a remington 870 with number 4 buckshot. it will do the trick.

Frog48
May 4, 2007, 11:16 PM
I'm torn between a AR15 and shotgun. So I keep both a Bushmaster and Mossberg handy.

TCB in TN
May 4, 2007, 11:17 PM
I personally like the good ole 12ga pump loaded with some 00 buck, but to be honest I have a multi layered HD weapon plan, starting with the shotty, backed up by my 9mm, and my wife has a 9mm carbine to keep her company while I go through the house to get the kids. Best is always a relative term, and while I consider the shotty my "primary" I believe in having a solid backup plan, and even some redundency beyond that.

BTW when I talk about HD I am talking about someone breaking INTO my home, not holding off a group of rioters/looters outside. Were that my main concern then I would likely look into the AR or AK platforms which I would consider more appropriate for that rather than the normal SD scenerio, where the short shotty/handgun combo makes the most sense in my mind.

trueblue1776
May 4, 2007, 11:20 PM
prefer a pistol to a 16" barrel

Skofnung
May 4, 2007, 11:21 PM
Of the guns listed, the 18" shotgun wins. It is tough to beat a short shotgun for most home defense situations. Engaging at greater than 25 yards is unlikley in most HD scenarios.

The AR comes in a close second.

Gewehr98
May 4, 2007, 11:28 PM
Shotguns are good for shooting birds.

Uncle Sam thought so, too.

http://mauser98.com/870-3.jpg

(My bedside USMC 870Mk1, loaded with 2 3/4" 00 full-brass buckshot for those naughty little birds...)

Shadow Shock
May 4, 2007, 11:29 PM
I would go with a M1911. It has a lot of power, but without the over penatration of a rifle, or the spread of a shotgun which can destroy your possesions or kill yopu family on accident. Also It's much easier to manuever inside a house. It may only hold 7/8 fatboys, but if you can't kill someone with 7/8 .45 bullets,you might as well throw down your gun and beg for mercy. A pistol in the drawer of your nightstand is more convinient (and safer if you have kids that don't know any better) than a rifle or shotgun under the bed, in a corner or on the wall. And unless you have a gym in your house, you probobly wont be shooting more than a couple yards, so a pistol would do it.

kcmarine
May 4, 2007, 11:37 PM
Shotgun. The only firearm which will blow a man off of his feet.

Shadan7
May 5, 2007, 12:01 AM
Seriously, it all depends.

Two level home - I have a Sub2k upstairs, a Mossy 500 down. Always have a pistol on me, or close at hand in bed.

Something just "goes bump in the night", I've got the pistol in hand and a flashlight. :scrutiny:

Something gets the dog going, a long gun comes out. :eek:

7

Dr_2_B
May 5, 2007, 12:10 AM
really 'preciate the input. BTW 12ga got my vote too.

redman900
May 5, 2007, 12:25 AM
I have a sks for home defense..and if all else fails claymores front and back!!!
thats why its called the "quicker picker upper":evil:

Bartholomew Roberts
May 5, 2007, 12:32 AM
Which is best depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is the training and familiarity the user has with any particular weapon. Shooting at the range, my experience has been that novices seem to do best in terms of time and hits using a light recoiling carbine like an M1 Carbine, Keltec, AR15, AK, etc.

However a shotgun can be a very effective home defense weapon if you can keep it fed and manipulate it effectively. If they haven't had any formal training, you might also have to educate them on many of the myths surrounding a shotgun (you don't have to aim, it will blow a man off his feet, penetration myths surrounding certain ammo, etc.)

Pistols are almost always chosen for convenience, not effectiveness.

Eightball
May 5, 2007, 12:46 AM
00 buck penetrates far more than most people think, and unless he's living in a cinderblock house (doubt it), that round will fly through his walls AFTER hitting the BG, and potentailly kill a passer-by or some other occupier. Unless you're using some very small pellets, say, >6, you seriously risk overpenetration. Plus, many LEOs (at least in my area) tend to frown on 00 buck, because to them, that round has no reason other than premeditated "I'm gonna kill someone" shots. It is much easier, when asked, "why'd you use that particular load?" to say "Dove season"--I would suggest something along the lines of 8 shot. Why? Lots of mass, lower recoil, and there's an average of about 400 pellets per round; assuming you empty the magazine, even if the BG wouldn't die immediately, he would be in a lot of pain and hurt, and have around 3,000 small shots to pick out of his torso/bloodstream.

My vote was for the M1 carbine. Small, light, handy, semi-automatic, and pretty much shoots a hopped-up .357 round. Lots of rounds for the light weight, natural pointability, and the round that everyone loves to hate for being "underpowered" in most situations would aid it in not overly penetrating walls in an urban setting; round-nose bullets are wonderful for that (though HP would work wonderfully as well). It beats a pistol, IMO, because you can point it much easier, which comes in handy if you're groggy, tired, and just woke up from a dream to the sound of a BG/JBT breaking into your house, you shoulder it, point and click.

ArchAngelCD
May 5, 2007, 12:58 AM
There's nothing like a short shotgun loaded with #4 Buck for HD.

Gewehr98
May 5, 2007, 01:37 AM
00 buck penetrates far more than most people think, and unless he's living in a cinderblock house (doubt it), that round will fly through his walls AFTER hitting the BG, and potentailly kill a passer-by or some other occupier. Unless you're using some very small pellets, say, >6, you seriously risk overpenetration. Plus, many LEOs (at least in my area) tend to frown on 00 buck, because to them, that round has no reason other than premeditated "I'm gonna kill someone" shots. It is much easier, when asked, "why'd you use that particular load?" to say "Dove season"--I would suggest something along the lines of 8 shot. Why? Lots of mass, lower recoil, and there's an average of about 400 pellets per round; assuming you empty the magazine, even if the BG wouldn't die immediately, he would be in a lot of pain and hurt, and have around 3,000 small shots to pick out of his torso/bloodstream.

Would those be the same LEOs that have shotguns in their cruisers? And those LEOs don't remember why buckshot was invented - namely, for shooting deer (aka, "Bucks"). Any stigma attached to buckshot being a "kill someone" round is purely opinion and conjecture at best. Let me know how that pans out in court. I know of an early 19th century shot tower configured to drop the same buckshot, albeit fired from muzzleloading shotguns. Now, you don't suppose if buckshot works good for dropping deer, that perhaps it might be a good load for dropping two-legged varmints, would you? My own 870Mk1 is loaded with full-brass 2 3/4" 00 Buck, sourced from Vietnam-era Army ammunition plant guard stocks. They must've felt they were going to have to guard against deer attacks and all, since nobody in their right mind would use the load as a defensive round against Homo Sapiens...

Regarding overpenetration of 12 gauge buckshot vs. pistol caliber ammo and drywall:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Summary of tests against sheets of drywall via the Box 'O Truth:

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Eightball
May 5, 2007, 02:13 AM
For what it's worth, this was in conversation with a LEO on the local force for most of his adult life. His son, to help him out, didn't do "tests" with boards, he actually shot inside houses and such to test things out for our area, and those were his findings that I was referring to. Houses come in all shapes and sizes, my friend ;).

And if you'll notice, I didn't debate 00's lethality (it obviously kills people, quite effectively, and if you check my post, there is nothing denying this)--my "anecdote", if you will, was dealing specifically with smaller pellets. I was specifically pointing out that it doesn't instantly stop, as many people seem to assume, but that it does, in fact, go through things when it isn't "supposed" to do so.
Nor did I touch on the fact that you have to aim with shotguns--given the average distance inside houses around where I live, the shotshell would have expanded maybe 2 inches before it comes into contact with a wall (20 feet or so), and anyone who has actually fired scatterguns recognizes that they do not spread shot instantly.

I also did not debate the penetration between a shotshell round and a high-velocity rifle round, the only rifle round mentioned is .30 carbine.

I am aware that 00 as a "kill someone" round is conjecture, but people who rely on such conjecture happen to work in the local Law-enforcment offices.

All of my observations hold true in practice (not theory, using boards) around where I live; conditions are likely to differ in various places, but I hold by what I wrote--because, once again, despite the amount of "conjecture" by some local LEOs and the difference between penetration in boards and actual houses' walls by specific shotgun loads, those are factors where I reside. You are free to dispute this--after all, it is THR, and I cannot blame you with coming up with much more emperical data to show someone, which is universally applicable--most of mine is applicable only to a local area, but I figured I would at least interject something that may be a consideration for the homeowner in question.

And for everyone else out there, don't believe everything you read on the internet. After all, Al Gore invented it :rolleyes:

(yes, I know it sprang from DARPAnet).

Mike U.
May 5, 2007, 02:22 AM
Gewehr98,

Thank you for posting that info. It is appreciated!

To any interested party,
I believe penetrating a human body would take a good deal of the OOMPH! out of a buckshot load. I don't doubt that some of the pellets would penetrate the average human torso, but, how much velocity is left after that passage? Probably not enough to worry the neighbors.

And, how about the kids in the next room? After plowing thru a human torso those pellets have to have slowed down a lot. I'm wondering if there would be enough velocity left to even pass thru a couple of sheets of drywall.
I could be wrong in this assumption, but, look at the performance of buckshot in ballistic gel. One thing I notice is there is not a lot of over-penetration in the gel. What penetration there is though is scary awesome in it's destructiveness.
--------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:

Having followed a hunch and double checking my memory, it seems some 00 buck can readily over-penetrate sometimes up to 20+ inches. :eek:
--------------------------------------------------------
Shotgun slugs are a whole 'nother animal. One that has big teeth and should be carefully considered if you live with family in the other rooms of your abode.
Or, if your an apartment dweller.
Launching a 1 oz. slug @1600 FPS cannot bode well for others in your home. If you decide to use slugs or ANY firearm round for that matter, remember this all-important rule:
You launch it, you own it!

Gewehr98
May 5, 2007, 02:38 AM
I've got pals in CHP who carry 12 gauges with buckshot. We have them in our squad cars, too. As a private citizen, why cannot I have the same defensive weapon and load as them?

Before I punched out of the Air Force at the 20-year mark, I accepted an invite of some LE friends. I did the Hogan's Alley bit with a 12 gauge and buckshot, just to see how well I could maneuver a 20" pump gun. I sure would like a 14" NFA shotgun that swings easier, but I didn't suffer too badly. The experience reinforced my confidence in the shotgun as a viable HD weapon, especially since I don't plan on doing house-clearing maneuvers from my safe room and phone's speed-dialer. The bad guy can have the TV and stereo, no problem. They come into the bedroom for my wife and I, then I'm not too worried about overpenetration into an otherwise-unoccupied house. (The dogs are in the bedroom with us at night, too) We're all set. Now, if you have an infant in the crib in the next bedroom, I completely understand. However, YMMV, and one cannot issue a blanket "shotgun + buckshot = HD bad juju" statement without knowing the particulars.

Conjecture is a horrible thing. It goes into that whole "he used handloads to defend himself" thing, or the "he used hollowpoints to inflict excessive suffering" thing. Court cases remain to determine whether that really swings the jury and judge, a justified shooting remains just that. Cops are known for uttering opinions of varying worth. In my new post-retirement career, I've been a sheriff's deputy for just shy of a year, and already I find my eyes rolled up in their sockets way too often because of the stuff I hear from folks you'd think would know better. As an "old fart rookie", I bite my tongue, but my BP spikes from all the grains of salt I'm taking those opinions with... ;)

I liked this part of the Box o' Truth test:

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

Knocked that one out into the cheap seats, he did!

Mike U.
May 5, 2007, 02:47 AM
deleted redundant content.

Eightball
May 5, 2007, 03:04 AM
I know this has been said somewhere before, but I thought of the ultimate weapon for HD--it has:
1. No penetration
2. Guranteed kill
3. Large ammunition supply
4. Limited range
5. No possibility that the BG can "take it"

That weapon is: the FLAMETHROWER. Now, if only houses were fire-proof. Except that that wouldn't help our friend trying to help his, so we're back to square one.

Stachie
May 5, 2007, 03:17 AM
Gotta choose the pump!!!

Nematocyst
May 5, 2007, 03:31 AM
I didn't vote in the poll because my two long gun choices weren't options.

870P 12 ga 00
336A .30-30 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=54091&d=1172651793)

(Just ignore the 39A for HD.)

Why shotgun? Something intangible - maybe even irrational, relating more to emotion than rational thought - makes me prefer a shotgun for up close and personal SD as I'd be engaged in my studio. Just something about "shotgun" that says power. If I was engaged with shooters at 100 m, I'd not choose the shotgun.

Why Remington and not Mossberg? The Remington just felt better to me. Less a judgment about quality, more just how the gun fit.

Why 870P? I chose it after LOTS of research on THR a couple of years ago. The "P" has a slight edge in materials and workmanship over the standard 870s (which are still fine guns, as are the Mossbergs).

Why do I list the 336A? It's my camp utility rifle, wilderness rifle (until I go to AK) and deer rifle. It's in the studio. Admittedly I train with it more than the 870. In some circumstances, I might choose to grab it because I would be more likely to be accurate with it than the 870 (see other arguments in the thread about the danger of missing with a shotgun...).

Rifle or shotgun for me? It'll depend on the situation, the time of day, my state of mind. Both are within reach. (No kids in my house.)

Handguns?
642 in .38 spl or 686 in .357M depending on
which part of the house I'm in and the time of day.

rangerruck
May 5, 2007, 03:37 AM
the shotty is best 'cuz after you slam lots of tiny holes in the burglar, the shot likely wont penetrate , any more walls, much less go through your house, your neighbor's house, and kill him.

BayouTeche77
May 5, 2007, 03:53 AM
Every time this poll comes up I always go with the shotgun. It just makes sense to me. I can completely understand that at the distances you may face in a home invasion scenario don't really call for much "aiming" on your part with any of these guns, a seasoned shooter will just go with the flow and get the shot without any conscious aiming. But my argument is always that no matter how you slice it, at twenty feet a 2 1/2 inch spread beats the hell out of a 9mm point in space or a .30 inch diameter in space, or whatever caliber you use. It's just a bigger section with just a hair less chance of a miss.

I leave mine loaded with #4 magnum steel shot because this is what I hunt with mostly out of mine, duck, and I feel really comfortable with how this performs in my gun in the field and trust it in the home. There is always a handgun in reasonable range though, so if it was the closest at the time, I would be using a handgun if necessary. Also, if you have time to rack your shotgun when someone is in your house, you also have time to raise ten kinds of hell screaming and throwing things to let the BG know of your presence and intentions. I think a BG confronted by a screaming mad man would feel atleast a little discomforted. Then go ahead and give him a good hollywood pump is you still feel it is essential.

Chuck R.
May 5, 2007, 09:46 AM
My current HD gun is my Benelli M1S90, so I vote Shotgun. However I'm giving serious thought to changing to an AR.

As for shotgun loads, after doing some reading and taking a couple classes I used #1 buck for a HD load until I had the chance to pattern the Hornady TAP in a combat shotgun class. As for over penetrating, the bottom line is, anything with sufficient penetration to be reasonably effective on a human being, is going to penetrate walls. This is a pretty good article that supports the use of #1 Buck:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm


BTW in two tactical shotgun classes, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12” with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at “bad angles’ IE through limbs etc. That's 12" regardless of distance.


http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

Here’s a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...geindex=3#page

Here's some more data, to include use of bird shot. Keep in mind, the distance was 3 yards or 9 ft. Even at that close distance the birdshot, although dramatic looking, didn't penetrate much past 9 inches. This is just ballistic gellatin, and doesn't take into account clothing or poor presentations.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

After reading all of the above and talking to a couple of instructors, I think that bird shot is highly effective when used to defend against attacking birds.

Chuck

Dave Markowitz
May 5, 2007, 09:57 AM
Any weapon with enough penetration to reliably stop an aggressor with penetrate walls. if you miss. So, my concern would be a weapon which allows me the best shot palcement. For me, that means a rifle.

I vote for the M1 Carbine. It's light, handy, short, easy to load at a moment's notice, and has less blast and flash than an AR or AK. Loaded with 110 grain JSPs at ~1900 FPS, it'll do the job. This thread is gives me a reason to post my HD Rock Ola again:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/davemarkowitz/M1_Carbines/Rock_Ola_Side.jpg

It has a Ultimak rail on which are mounted a Bushnell red dot sight, and a Surefire G2 in a Viking Tactics mount. (The GI 30 rounder in the pic is just for show, at least until I test it. I stick with 15 round mags for serious work.)

Bartholomew Roberts
May 5, 2007, 10:31 AM
Training and familiarity is important. There is no question that the poll lists several capable tools that will get the job done if you have the training to use them.

On the overpenetration issue, the best solution is not to miss in the first place because as others have stated - anything that will effective stop a human being is going to zip right through several walls if you miss. This is one of the reasons it bugs me to see people recommend shotguns frequently on the basis of power.

To use an example, if you broke into a friend of mine's house. You'd probably catch all nine pellets from the shotgun center mass; because he trains with it regularly and has patterned his shotgun with his defensive ammo at different ranges.

You break into my house, I'm going to hit you with the shotgun; but probably a few pellets are going into the wild blue yonder because I don't train as often with it and I haven't patterned the loads I use in it. Still bad news for the bad guy; but not so great news for my guests either.

You put somebody behind the trigger who has never fired a firearm, or has very little experience, load the shotgun up with a nice super-powerful load like 3" Magnum 000 buck and let them fire enough just to get a good flinch; but not enough to pattern the load or get any meaningful training with it and you've probably got someone who is at least as much of a menace to others in the house as they are to intruders.

If you gave that same person in the last category a .30 Carbine M1, they would likely be a lot more effective with the same amount of training.

Essex County
May 5, 2007, 12:00 PM
I voted for the short barreled AR, but I would be equally happy with an M1 Carbine. I live in a rural log cabin so overpenetration is'nt an issue. If I was an apartment dweller I would have rethink this. Essex

heypete
May 7, 2007, 02:57 AM
My friend Rita votes for the shotgun:

http://lh6.google.com/image/heypete1/RiL_1S82OEI/AAAAAAAAB4w/ZkPfuDztAQc/s800/12.jpg

Our loyal opposition, Bob the Zombie (with myself holding the wounded Bob), similarly votes for it:

http://lh6.google.com/image/heypete1/RiQ91y82OXI/AAAAAAAAB7M/DZIH0R7-m7I/s800/31.jpg

#7 1/2 birdshot tears up cardboard and is useful on small birds. Small birdshot is not terribly useful against bad guys. #4 and larger buckshot is the way to go.

silverlance
May 7, 2007, 04:21 AM
for HD i use a sig p228. it's really not practical to keep a loaded shotgun lying aroudn the house at all times. and i dont want to open the safe several times every day. it's much easier to keep a pistol in a minivault. saves wear and tear on the safe and much easier to open.

JShirley
May 7, 2007, 04:59 AM
:banghead: the round that everyone loves to hate for being "underpowered" in most situations would aid it in not overly penetrating walls in an urban setting

Very fast, lightweight rounds tend to expand and/or fragment much MORE reliably than slower, heavier ones (45 grain HP @ 3400 fps, say, vs. 110 grain JSP @ 1900 fps). When I actually shot .30 Carbine JSP at stuff, I was amazed at how deeply it penetrated.

I like the little carbine a lot, but don't assume anything about its penetration until you've actually tested it in media.

John

a1huntingsupply
May 7, 2007, 07:49 AM
MY long gun choice would be the AR-15 (mine is ready to go with 2-30rd magazines). I have read that due to the light weight bullet it will not travel through walls as easily as most people think. The high velocity bullet will fragment easily at close range in flesh. I also like the fact that you have plenty of rounds in the magazine if you have to face multiple threats.

I have seen first hand on two occasions what a shotgun will do.

One time was in self defense from about three feet and it was devastating. This happened to my family about 20 years ago.

The other time was a neighbor that was in a hunting accident. It hurt him pretty bad, fortunately it wasn’t life threatening.

K.L.O.sako
May 7, 2007, 07:55 AM
nothing, in my veiw matches a short barrelled shot gun for close range work. plus there is the over penatration issue( walls, doors, etc )that puts favor in the shotgun's corner as well. nothing, firearms wise, is as leathal at short range than the good ole shotgun.

RandyB
May 7, 2007, 09:59 AM
Out of the choices I would pick the AR-15. Looking at the actual testing on building materials, the handguns penerate more than the AR. I would have picked the shotgun if it had been a choice other than the mossberg. I nver have cared for them. Give me a 870, Ithaca 87/37 or a Winchester 1300 anyday. BTW. I have a 870 and 1911 for home defense.

MHBushmaster
May 7, 2007, 12:57 PM
kcmarine
wrote: "Shotgun. The only firearm which will blow a man off of his feet."

I hope my sarcasm detector is broken. I guess all those crew served firearms that we see in the military should be replaced with shotguns, eh?
The basic laws of physics would tend to disagree with your assertment of a shotgun, but hollyweird special effects types would agree with your statement and are probably glad that you think their effects are reality.

Shotguns = low capacity, slow recovery time, and tend to either really over penterate (slugs) or really under penetrate (any shot that is not buckshot).
That being said, shotguns (loaded out appropriately) are much preferable to stoping an aggressor than a pistol for home defense applications. Shotguns are great for shooting trap-skeet-upland game, breaching doors, and slinging slugs out to 75yards reliably. The racking of the slide to "scare off" an aggressor = :banghead: I wish people would stop perpetuating this ridiculous ascertation. In essence, your treating your pump-action shotgun as a "talisman", all you have to do is touch it in certain way and all evil will go away:rolleyes:

Go with an AR15, 16" barrel, KISS except for an upgrade to an Eotech or an AIMpoint (illuminated reticle for lowlight) loaded out with the largest bullet grainage your barrel twist can accomodate, and don't look back.

Oohrah
May 7, 2007, 04:10 PM
Anything will penetrate a wall or two. A shotgun pattern doesn't
open much in an average sized room. A matter of user friendly
to the household, and being able to put into use. Living in rural
environment, the family dog mostly tells of any possible property
invasion long before there is a threat factor. It allows for a mind
set factor instead of surprise!:D :D :D Even though I marked
shot gun, I am just as apt to pick up a 1911 A1, slightly modified,
with expanding rounds.:)

George Hill
May 7, 2007, 04:42 PM
An M1 Garand? Are you kidding? Who voted to use a .30-06 for a home defense gun? Do you live next to the Huns or something?

BigSoundRacing
May 7, 2007, 04:46 PM
FN FS2000 because it is more tactical than my FAL.

Be safe, BSR

unrealtrip
May 7, 2007, 05:03 PM
A shotgun is the hands down home defense weapon. A handgun is second.

ALL of those tacticool looking guns are out. Why? Because when the prosecutor holds up an "assault rifle" that looks scary, you may find the jury ruling in favor of the deceased POS that was in your house instead of you.

A plain jane shotgun is the best bet. Hell, some of them are even called the HD aka Home Defense model.

Cosmoline
May 7, 2007, 08:58 PM
I'm actually intrigued by the M-1 carbine as a home defense firearm, esp. after those great gel test results recently posted here.

Personally, I use a Mosin with handloads.

Shotgun. The only firearm which will blow a man off of his feet.

Let's not get carried away. Only a punt gun would do something like that.

Glockman17366
May 7, 2007, 09:13 PM
Well, 12 gauge here too...same reasons as the other folks

High Planes Drifter
May 7, 2007, 09:49 PM
Shotgun. The only firearm which will blow a man off of his feet.

No it wont.


As for the original question, go with whatever you practice more with. Thats my advise. I voted handgun. I find it easier to use an AR, AK, or a handgun your farmiliar with. Personally I just find shotguns harder to use than carbines and handguns.

rantingredneck
May 7, 2007, 10:05 PM
I voted 12 Gauge Mossberg in the poll, but would prefer an 870. I keep mine loaded with Rem light recoil 00 buck. I've patterned it and put a box of buckshot or two (and occasionally slugs) through it at various ranges once every other month or so. I also deer and dove hunt with this gun (different barrels) so I get practice handling and shooting it throughout the year. I would trust my life to it without question. It sits in my safe at night with the door unlocked and open for ready access.

On the shelf beside my bed (up high where the 2 year old can't reach) sits a loaded Ruger P90 or P89 at night. The other sits on a shelf in the safe right above the 870. One of the two goes with me during the day, the other stays at home in the safe.

Also in the safe is a Ruger PC9. That covers everything from the average intruder to the slobbering zombie horde. :)

TimboKhan
May 7, 2007, 10:48 PM
As a whole, I tend to agree with the shotgun as the perfect HD tool. Just don't fall prey to the internet and gunshop commandos who tell you not to aim. Yes, you do. Perhaps it doesn't need to be as perfect as a pistol or rifle, but you do need to aim.

That said, I have a chinese sks imported by Polytech called the "hunter". It is a slightly cut down (no bayonet) and now rests in a Tapco T-6 stock. I feel very confident in the rifle and my ability with it, and it is my go-to HD rifle. That combined with a pistol by my bed, a pistol in the kitchen cabinet and another in my closet pretty much round out my HD options.

rkh
May 7, 2007, 11:18 PM
For close-range work, the shotgun is the superior weapon.

Don't think of it as a low capacity pump gun, view it instead as a really hot 32 ACP tricked out to give you 8, 9-12 round bursts.

Tokugawa
May 8, 2007, 11:34 AM
George, regarding the M1- it would do a fine job if the assailants are armored. Or if there is a car with a bunch of thugs hosing your house down. It depends a lot on where a person lives.
Serious reccomendation here- handgun. It can be concealed so you do not cause dirty shorts with every false alarm, and one hand can be free to attend to other tasks, open door, press dial 911, flashlight, etc.

MHBushmaster
May 8, 2007, 12:56 PM
unrealtrip

A shotgun is the hands down home defense weapon. A handgun is second.

ALL of those tacticool looking guns are out. Why? Because when the prosecutor holds up an "assault rifle" that looks scary, you may find the jury ruling in favor of the deceased POS that was in your house instead of you.

A plain jane shotgun is the best bet. Hell, some of them are even called the HD aka Home Defense model
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your presume to much: Handguns are third place buckaroo: they are inefficient at the job of stopping attackers, their main assest is concealability, but in your home concealability is near pointless. Handguns shoot rather large diameter bullets at relatively slow speeds. "But a .45 will knock someone down even if you hit them in the arm", that is B.S. and it is proven not to be the case.
Shotguns have their place and niche, home defense is not their strongest suite, but will work if loaded out appropriately (buckshot). The reason shotguns are prevelant in many peoples answers to this thread is because most folks own a shotgun, not as many own a shorter barreled carbine. If someone chooses a shotgun over their carbine, if it is not a training/comfortability issue, then they are making a poor choice in going with the shotgun, this bucks decades of popular thought, but think about it, are out guys in Iraq using shotguns while going room to room, clearing buildings?

Next, any defense lawyer worth his salt can pound that "assault weapon" claim down the toilet. And if the prosecutor is going to go after you for killing a home intruder, you are in the same same boat irregardless of the tool that you used. Show me some case law that supports your claim that a Zumbo gun or a shotgun got a defendent off the hook from a prosecutor whereas a similar defendent was put in the slammer for using an "assualt weapon". I'll save you some time, it doesn't exist.
For home defense and personal defense, use the best tool you are trained with, and quit being whiney about how others are going to perceive your actions. You have to first survive the encounter to be judged...."rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6". And don't spew stuff about handguns being second place right after shotguns for self defense:banghead: Guess we should just collect the M16's, M4's, M14's, etc and issue Mossberg 500's.
And a shotgun thought of as a tricked out .32ACP, yeah, great self defense load right there:banghead:

Cosmoline
May 8, 2007, 01:12 PM
An M1 Garand? Are you kidding? Who voted to use a .30-06 for a home defense gun? Do you live next to the Huns or something?

You can control what bullets you load in, and how fast they are going. Why is it people assume every rifle must fire AP ball?

Chuck R.
May 8, 2007, 01:18 PM
Your presume to much: Handguns are third place buckaroo: they are inefficient at the job of stopping attackers, their main assest is concealability, but in your home concealability is near pointless. Handguns shoot rather large diameter bullets at relatively slow speeds. "But a .45 will knock someone down even if you hit them in the arm", that is B.S. and it is proven not to be the case.
Shotguns have their place and niche, home defense is not their strongest suite, but will work if loaded out appropriately (buckshot). The reason shotguns are prevelant in many peoples answers to this thread is because most folks own a shotgun, not as many own a shorter barreled carbine. If someone chooses a shotgun over their carbine, if it is not a training/comfortability issue, then they are making a poor choice in going with the shotgun, this bucks decades of popular thought, but think about it, are out guys in Iraq using shotguns while going room to room, clearing buildings?

:rolleyes:

Wow, like to come off a little strong don’t we “Buckaroo”?

I have both, train on both, and still prefer a shotgun. It’s got something to do with 4000 lbs of energy compared to 1500 or so. For me it comes down to; at household distances which gun stands a greater chance of a 1 shot incapacitation.

Comparing military operations/Iraq to home defense is quite a stretch. I do not expect to have to engage multiple attackers, and I don’t need the effective range flexibility IN MY HOUSE that a carbine offers.

I dunno, maybe the guys in Iraq are using carbines because they don’t feel like carrying around an indoor gun, and an outdoor gun.

Chuck

BigSoundRacing
May 8, 2007, 01:52 PM
no sound in the world as distinctive as the sound of a pump shotgun

Be safe, BSR

DoubleTapDrew
May 8, 2007, 02:15 PM
The reason shotguns are prevelant in many peoples answers to this thread is because most folks own a shotgun, not as many own a shorter barreled carbine. If someone chooses a shotgun over their carbine, if it is not a training/comfortability issue, then they are making a poor choice in going with the shotgun, this bucks decades of popular thought, but think about it, are out guys in Iraq using shotguns while going room to room, clearing buildings?

I can see a short barreled AR with a suppressor being a good choice, but without a suppressor wouldn't you completely destroy your night vision and hearing with the first shot?
I thought the main reason most .mil and LEO teams are using 5.56 as opposed to shotguns or subguns for clearing is the threat of multiple enemies wearing body armor.

heypete
May 8, 2007, 02:25 PM
If someone chooses a shotgun over their carbine, if it is not a training/comfortability issue, then they are making a poor choice in going with the shotgun, this bucks decades of popular thought, but think about it, are out guys in Iraq using shotguns while going room to room, clearing buildings?

That's because the soldiers in Iraq are issued M16s/M4s. A few are issued shotguns, but they're mainly used for breaching the door, not as a primary weapon.

In situations that the military is likely to face (large number of bad guys, confined space, possible hostages/innocent bystanders) a shotgun is more of a liability due to its increased recoil, slower recovery time, limited ammo capacity, and lack of very precise aiming ability (yes, at indoor ranges shot patterns don't spread much, but in a hostage situation that's still a bad thing as you might wing an innocent).

At situations commonly found in most home defense situations (between 1-3 bad guys, lightly armed, and main goal is theft of valuables rather than killing the homeowners), a shotgun would be perfectly suitable.

Just because the military does something doesn't mean it's the right thing for civilians to do. Private citizens have a much greater flexibility in the type of guns and ammo we have at our disposal, and can make those decisions for ourselves based on our own specific situations. In my apartment, I'd much rather use buckshot than rifle ammo due to the population density in the building.

The Canuck
May 8, 2007, 02:46 PM
If by home defense you mean that the goblins have got past your front door, the 12ga. for sure. The psychological effect of a shotgun blast will rattle even the most whacked druggie. The shotgun can be deployed with a wide variety of loads, everything from birdshot right up to 1oz. slugs and even bean-bags and lock-busters if you know the right people (also depends on the legality of such rounds in your political jurisdiction). It is relatively easy to use and is ubiquitous in Western Society.

If you are defending your home in a state of Emergency the whole thing shifts to rifles and carbines pretty quick. In this case it is a draw between the AK and the AR. The reason being you will want to consider projection of force and magazine capacity. The AK tends to leap out for me here as the AR has a shorty barrel.

Afy
May 8, 2007, 03:23 PM
You want a long gun... I presume to stop BG's as far away as possible...

.338 Lapua..in a Sako TRG 42 with a Nightforce scope.. high magnification.

1100 yards is the radius of the circle I want to be minimally safe in.

Lashlarue
May 8, 2007, 03:58 PM
Double barreled 12ga loaded with 00 buck. " Shotgun, extreme close range, double-O. Starkey was hit four times, first two cut him in half.
Sgt. Joe Friday: The second two turned him into a crowd.

Tokugawa
May 8, 2007, 04:00 PM
You guys are expecting the threat to come in a big package labeled "THREAT".
No use to have a concealed weapon at home? Try this- A car , that seems a little shifty pulls in your drive, you go out to see what is going on with your shotgun, rifle etc. They are are lost and looking for directions. The next car that pulls in has blue lights on top.
Repeat scenario. A knock at the door, two people who appear innocuous, but it sure would be nice to have a gun handy just in case. So what do you do with the rifle? How do you respond?
Get real here folks, a handgun is the primary, the long gun a backup, because MOST of the time, the threat will be a FALSE alarm, and you will become known to the cops as the crazy guy who pulled a gun on the Mormon kids or the lost yuppies or the neighbors new gardener.
Yeah, sure, when a lowrider pulls up and three gangers jump out with AK's, sure, grab the long gun- but most of the time, the question of whether there is a threat is going to be somewhat ambiguous- and if you go around with a visible rifle you are going to become familiar with the wrong side of the cops.

unrealtrip
May 8, 2007, 05:06 PM
MHBushmaster: Relax brother, this was just a poll asking for opinions, that is mine and I'm sticking to it.

I didn't think my post was whiney in any way, just what I think. From a technical standpoint, I believe the cylinder choke shotgun is a superior short range weapon. Sure it needs to be aimed, like any gun, but the amount of energy it dumps into said bad guy is far more substantial than any .223. Mine holds 7+1 and that's plenty for home defense. It's not a gun I'd tote into a lasting gunfight, but then again if I'm outgunned with 8rnds of 00 buck *in my house* then I'm already in over my head.

I think it has been mentioned already by Chuck R., but you can't seriously compare tactical room clearing scenarios in war-torn Iraq to a home invasion. Without going into every possible scenario that could happen, the swiss army knife of weapons, in my mind the shotgun, is what I want in my hands when someone is coming through a window, back door, etc. If, God forbid, I actually have to fire at an intruder, it *will* put him down; that boom will not only wake up all of my neighbors, but if he has a partner he will think twice about following his now dead or dying friend as he realizes this is not the soft target they thought it was.

I have a .308, I also have a .45ACP. My wife is comfortable with both. What do I do if something goes bump in the night? First off it just woke me up, so I continue to listen intently. Then I let my German Shepherd loose, while she's investigating I grab the loaded shotgun and chamber a round, hand my wife the phone and my .45, then go investigate. If the dog didn't scare off or maim the bad guy, he gets one loud verbal warning and then a chest-full of buck. I would have a solid defense case even here in the People's Republik of **********.

I listed the handgun as my second for the reasons mentioned by Tokugawa and as a backup for the shotgun. Also, I know an attorney can play down the AW image, but when someone is holding up an AR15 to a jury, it sure will look a lot more menacing than a Remington 870 Home Defense shotgun purchased at the local Big 5 Sporting Goods. Because when they see the image below, the prosecutor won't have to do much to make his case.

http://odspec.com/AR15/ar15_6.gif

Chuck R.
May 8, 2007, 11:40 PM
You guys are expecting the threat to come in a big package labeled "THREAT".
No use to have a concealed weapon at home? Try this- A car , that seems a little shifty pulls in your drive, you go out to see what is going on with your shotgun, rifle etc. They are are lost and looking for directions. The next car that pulls in has blue lights on top.
Repeat scenario. A knock at the door, two people who appear innocuous, but it sure would be nice to have a gun handy just in case. So what do you do with the rifle? How do you respond?
Get real here folks, a handgun is the primary, the long gun a backup, because MOST of the time, the threat will be a FALSE alarm, and you will become known to the cops as the crazy guy who pulled a gun on the Mormon kids or the lost yuppies or the neighbors new gardener.
Yeah, sure, when a lowrider pulls up and three gangers jump out with AK's, sure, grab the long gun- but most of the time, the question of whether there is a threat is going to be somewhat ambiguous- and if you go around with a visible rifle you are going to become familiar with the wrong side of the cops.
__________________
tokugawa

I see your point, but none of those circumstances qualify as what I consider to be HD.

You also assume (and you know how that goes) that the guys recommending a long-gun, don't have a handgun. In my case I have both at ready secured in V-Line gun cases. So here's how I'd respond to your scenarios:

1. Strange car: Grab CCW gun go out and great with gun concealed. If it's really spooky I'm not going outdoors to investigate chit, watch from my widow, dial 911 while caressing my Benelli. So a long gun will suffice.

2. Knock on door late at night: Concealed carry gun, IF I decide to open door. Again, if really spooky long gun will suffice while we talk through the door.

3. Crash bang sound of someone breaking in: Benelli M1S90, 7 rounds of #1 buck, M3X Tactical light.

4. Drunken/stoned knucklehead trying to kick in my door at 0200: Benelli M1S90, 7 rounds of #1 buck, M3X Tactical light.

There is no one weapon that covers all possibilities, but I'd rather error on the side of weapon effectiveness. Also, nothing says I must exit my "castle" there's nothing "out there" that can't be replaced, so conceal-ability is pretty moot in HD.

If I could only have one, I'd still probably go with the long-gun because numbers 1 & 2 are not identified as a threat, while 3 & 4 are. Once identified as a threat, I'm not worried about concealment in the least.

Chuck

john paul
May 9, 2007, 12:18 PM
put a heavy bird shot in the chamber and buck in the magazine. across a normal living room the bird shot will stop just about anything. then you have buckshot for your follow ups.

JShirley
May 9, 2007, 12:22 PM
I think it has been mentioned already by Chuck R., but you can't seriously compare tactical room clearing scenarios in war-torn Iraq to a home invasion.

True...the M4-style carbine will be even more effective when used by a defender and loaded with expanding ammunition.

heypete
May 9, 2007, 12:26 PM
put a heavy bird shot in the chamber and buck in the magazine. across a normal living room the bird shot will stop just about anything. then you have buckshot for your follow ups.

Oh? The Box O Truth says otherwise (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm).

I quote: Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.

Gewehr98
May 9, 2007, 12:54 PM
True...the M4-style carbine will be even more effective when used by a defender and loaded with expanding ammunition.

Based on which test vs. buckshot? Box 'o Truth? :confused:

SSN Vet
May 9, 2007, 12:56 PM
I thought my .357 with a 6-1/2" barrel was a long gun.....:p :p :p

innerpiece
May 9, 2007, 01:11 PM
i voted a yugo.
its my HD long gun, if the pistols arent enuff.

I keep it with a folding stock for easier movement. I dont need 30rd mags either, I can hit what I shoot, and a well placed 7.62 x 39 wont normally let somone back up...

as for politics of such a weapon for HD... I dont care if a hypothetical jury seen it as bad and I got time.. so long as my family is safe!


ip.

MHBushmaster
May 9, 2007, 02:39 PM
Ok. The assumptions many have made about lightly armed attackers, and them being few in numbers as well others saying birdshot is viable for home defense: these are all assumptions. Cut to the chase, some one is in YOUR HOME, where they don't belong, assuming they are few in numbers, poorly trained, not wearing body armor of some sort and that they are gonna run at the sound of shotgun chambering a shell, that they are not organized or motivated, etc all of these are DANGEROUS assumptions = Decreasing your odds of coming away from the encounter alive and keeping your family safe from harm. You might be thinking, "come on, the chances that they are wearing some kind of bullet resistent vest or armor or something is ridiculous". Great, you just took up the same rationale as the sheeple who think YOU are being "ridiculous" for choosing to arm yourself to defend your family in your home or out in the world. Plan for the worst, pray for the best.

Next, assuming that your 1st shot with a shotgun is going to hit its mark at 3:34am is a pretty high assumption (it is of some comfort to know that you can have 29 more opportunities to stop the attacker). Lump that assumption with the slow recovery/follow up shot time with a shotgun and you are decreasing your odds of coming thru this situation unharmed. And in the slow reload time if you expend your 6+1, or 7+1, or 2 in some peoples cases, and again you are decreasing your chances of survival as well as endangering your family as you have not stopped the threat and they are still moving about in YOUR HOME while you try and find some more shells. How many extra shells do you keep as reloads on hand and accessible? I bet many are assuming on getting the job done with whats in the shotgun...

To the folks that say that our soldiers are only using 5.56x45mm weapons platforms, (M16/M4) because that is what is issued to them, I disagree. Many of our brave troops carry shotguns in combat, as breaching tools. They don't employ their shotguns as a primary weapon because they are not as effective as their carbines. They use the M16/M4's because they work well for their intended purpose. They are light, accurate, and pound for pound you can carry alot more ammo than compared to .30 class weapons. Clearing a room in Tikrit can be compared to clearing your living room, it is all about tactics. Sure you probably don't own flashbangs, frags, and your not supported by 3 or more buddies, but the same theories apply, use surpise when possible, split the pie, don't get tunnel vision, and fast is slow-slow is fast for shot placement.

I own shotguns and swiss army knives and I agree with the analogy of them being similiar type tools. Swiss army knives are great at nothing but are better than not having anything at all for tools. They are horrible for whittling, horrendous as a screwdriver, painful for use as a file, etc, but they can get the job done but not very effectively or efficiently. If I am defending my families lives (which is the highest honor), I don't want to use a tool for defense that is equivalant to the Swiss Army knife, the shotgun. I want to use the sharpest blade, something capable of precision, and with just enough heft to its mass to be made for the task at hand. Likewise, if all you have is a swiss army knife (shotgun), it is surely better than harsh words and balled up fists at getting the job done.

Again, concealability is moot for HOME defense, you are at home, if a shifty car comes onto your driveway, why are going outside to investigate? You loose all elements of surprise, and you are choosing the shifty cars drivers place for a possible confrontation. Wait inside and observe, turn on exterior lighting, and if something is amiss and needs reaction by you the homeowner, concealabilty is moot. I cannot think of an example right now, but if a situation warranted you going outside and needing a firearm, why conceal it if you need right then. Plus outside the engagement distances are increased compared to in-the-home distances, this puts a minus in the shotguns category because with greater distance, the less effective your shot placement is going to be (which is nothing if the projectiles don't actually hit something vital, ie it is all about shot placement and not all about 4,000 lbs of energy). Bottom line, Shotguns loaded for home defense are not as reliable as a carbine at getting appropriate shot placement as engagement distances increase. Sure you could use slugs and get some more distance, but now you have to unload your buck and upload your slugs = time lost, advantage gone, and you assumption has decreased your chances of surviving.

And to the double barrel shotgun post, :uhoh: , I hope you at least have a cap and ball revolver to follow up your 18th century technology SxS. At least upgrade get a pump action Maverick or a used Ithaca M37 with some more capacity. Taking your life and your families life in the context of an assumption that 2 shells of buckshot is all your ever gonna need is taking a risk that is un-necessary.

I am glad that this site is having this dialogue and debate. Home defense is important and I am glad that this topic is being discussed.
I am not a shotgun hater(I have a passion for collecting Ithaca Model 37 featherweight shotguns), nor do I purport to be a die hard "The AR15 is the best rifle in the world" type person. I enjoy shooting my Mausers as much, if not at times, more than my AR's. I shoot trap and skeet when I can find the time, and I participate in CMP rifle matches and am looking forward to the Appleseed shoot in Van Etten, NY in 2.5 week. :)

RockyMtnTactical
May 9, 2007, 02:47 PM
AR15 Carbine.

Because I have trained with it the most and it's very effective.

W Turner
May 9, 2007, 04:59 PM
I voted for the KT sub-2000 in 9mm. Many people chooses pistols because they are easily portable and potent enough to do the job with good placement. HD is the perfect assignment for a pistol caliber carbine in a semi-auto caliber, IMO.

I was a diehard fan of shotguns for HD until I read The Book of Two Guns by Tiger McKee. He makes a convincing argument for a SG only being appropriate for HD use after much specialized training.

IIRC, his main points are.....

-reloading sequence requires multiple fine motor skills and both hands
-when using generally accepted ammunition (slugs and buck) the chances of overpenetration are very real
-limited capacity
-effective operation of the most common version (pump) requires the use of both hands all the time

I still use one for now, but I have given serious thought to selling my pumpgun and getting a good rifle.

W

Gewehr98
May 9, 2007, 05:00 PM
Next, assuming that your 1st shot with a shotgun is going to hit its mark at 3:34am is a pretty high assumption (it is of some comfort to know that you can have 29 more opportunities to stop the attacker).

Ok, so you don't think you're gonna get a COM hit on the badguy with the first round of your AR? (Hint, use the sights) So, which round's gonna do the job? #15, #29? Pity the poor slob who has a revolver in his nightstand, then, too. From the way you put it, he's guaranteed to die for entering the fight without a bazillion rounds available. NOTE: Your marksmanship skills and plan of action may dictate you want 30 rounds. That doesn't, and shouldn't, mean everybody else does, or will. I'd wager the police reports show a broad spectrum of what worked and what didn't.

I've got an AK in the corner, loaded with Winchester 123gr SP rounds, sitting #2 in the G-98 HD layered-defense stack. #1 is my USMC 870Mk1, it carries 8 rounds of full-brass 00 buckshot. Where the shotgun's front sight is pointed, that's where a tight pattern of 9 pellets of 0.33" diameter are going at 1450fps, giving me 8 extra chances of causing the bad guy to leak badly and generally stop doing Bad Things to me and mine before I rack the slide and send 7 additional batches of 9 towards the attacker. That's 72 pissed-off pellets looking to shut down an aggressor who decided to head towards the master bedroom. Will they "overpenetrate" and go through drywall? Hell, yes! As stated before in this thread, and demonstrated in tests, so will any round deemed powerful enough for HD, be it SG, Rifle, or Pistol - duh. It would be a good idea, then, to not miss the bad guy, be it with a SG w/8 rounds, Rifle w/30 rounds, or pistol/revolver. However, I ain't clearing hovels in Tikrit with an M4, I'm stopping an attack on my person. I'm not doing a sector-by-sector clearance of the house, cutting the pie, duct-taping trauma plates to my back, or doing a sweep. There IS a difference, and the definition of One True Sword varies from person to person based on what works for them, albeit some proselytize it more than others. BA/UU/R is the better strategy, regardless of platform.

Bottom Line: There's grannies who have been recently recorded as ventilating an intruder with a shot or two from a dusty old .38 revolver pulled out of the sock drawer. Their minds were in the fight, and I'm much more impressed with their success than any defensive rifle/shotgun/handgun pissing contest on an online internet forum. :scrutiny:

Lashlarue
May 9, 2007, 05:26 PM
I'm sorry anyone took me seriously about the double barrel shotgun, I have two longuns an 1894s and a HP995, the HP is at my bedside along with a 9mm kel-tec P-11, both are loaded with Glaser ammo, the ammo the FBI found was most likely to kill the bad guy and least likely to harm your neighbors.

3fgburner
May 9, 2007, 05:49 PM
I voted for what I use -- Mossberg 500 12ga, 18" barrel.

RexDart
May 9, 2007, 05:58 PM
Don't see my current option:

Winchester '97 w/ Hornady TAP Reduced Recoil 00 Buck. Old-school home defense.

Nematocyst
May 9, 2007, 07:59 PM
Where the shotgun's front sight is pointed, that's where a tight pattern of 9 pellets of 0.33" diameter are going at 1450fps, giving me 8 extra chances of causing the bad guy to leak badly and generally stop doing Bad Things to me and mine before I rack the slide and send 7 additional batches of 9 towards the attacker. That's 72 pissed-off pellets looking to shut down an aggressor who decided to head towards the master bedroom.

<snippage>

I'm much more impressed with [the grannies] success than any defensive rifle/shotgun/handgun pissing contest on an online internet forum. Say, amen?

deputy tom
May 9, 2007, 08:03 PM
I voted 12 ga shotgun.HD is just that.Up close so I don't need long range benefits from some of the other choices.YMMV.tom.:cool:

_N4Z_
May 9, 2007, 09:16 PM
I voted 12 ga, though I have a Rem870 with a 20" barrel.

It is stocked with slugs and 00buck of the 2 3/4" variety.


Back up to the shotgun is my Vector AK, 7.62x39. One partially loaded 30 round mag (BG's guess as to how many :D ), 123gr full metal jacket.


Back up to long guns, One GP100 w/ 6 rounds 158gr Rem SJHP (.357mag), and one SP101 w/ 5 rounds 158gr Rem LHP (.38spl +p)

RexDart
May 9, 2007, 09:28 PM
Quote:

Shotgun just the sound of "pumping a round in" will make a BG pee his pants.
Their advice to me on home defense is there is nothing better at making someone (BG) reconsider exactly why he's doing what he's doing quite like a "click click" of a shotgun being pumped.
...And generally that's enough to scare some reality into him, and hopefully make him turn around and RUN away.

Case in point at this guy's blog (http://www.machinedreamer.com/archives/2007/05/06/crime_tried_to_happen_to_me_thursday.php).

Apparently the sound of a pump shotgun makes goblins remember somewwhere else they want to be more cuz when I looked over at the window that fellow was backing down my drive like somebody set his d*ck afire.

Rifleman 173
May 31, 2007, 03:31 AM
I would say that your friend should find the firearm that HE feels would best work for him. ANY time you fire ANY shot there is ALWAYS the possibility of a bullet, slug or buckshot penetrating a bad guy and then striking another person out beyond them. Which ever firearm that he feels best about is the one that he should practice with until:
a. He COMFORTABLY has his accuracy of fire, at different distances, developed to a fine edge and,
b. He needs to practice, practice and practice some more even once he's comfortable with his firearm and,
c. He should practice switching from one firearm to another firearm over and over just in case something goes south on him during an emergency and,
d. If possible he should practice shooting in different kinds of light to prepare himself for shooting in the daytime, at dusk and at night.
Once your friend has mastered his weapon of choice, he should then practice with other weapons so that he develops a variety of choices for himself. If his shotgun breaks, then he KNOWS, in advance, that he WILL be able to use his .223/5.56 rifle to defend his home or ruin a bad guy's day because he's thought ahead, practiced and developed his needed skill for the bad times.

retrieverman
May 31, 2007, 07:41 AM
If an attacker enters my house, he is getting 00 buckshot as a welcoming gift. I voted shotgun and practice what I preach.

Landlocked Pirate
May 31, 2007, 11:07 AM
As for using shotguns in military house clearing operations, gunwriter Jan Libourel wrote an interesting piece in a past issue of GUN WORLD magazine. He wrote that the late Rex Applegate had once told him that towards the end of WWII that he had been given the task of clearing fanatical Nazi holdouts from buildings in towns that the allies had taken. He said that they could have had any weapon they wanted for that task, and that they overwhelmingly chose pump shotguns using 00 buck.

DawgFvr
May 31, 2007, 11:23 AM
I voted Shotgun. I have many weapons...from the M1 Garand down to the .380 P3AT. If, however, I am going to defend my Home...give me my Mossberg 590 and 00 low recoil buckshot.

1BLINDREF
May 31, 2007, 11:47 AM
Shotgun :evil::evil:

Koblenz
May 31, 2007, 12:12 PM
I have kept an SKS for home defense for a long time. The reason is that I can keep it unloaded, and thus less of a risk should young children or a careless adult pick it up, yet I can load it lightning fast with a stripper clip of ten rounds should the need arise.

glockman19
May 31, 2007, 12:36 PM
I'd have to agree with my estemed coleuges who chose a 12 guage shotgun with #4-#0 shot. Most efective is the racking of the round. anyone who sticks around to see what's comming next is a fool.

There's nothing like a short shotgun loaded with #4 Buck for HD.

+1

Browning
May 31, 2007, 01:25 PM
I'd choose the 12 gauge if the person was going to actually practice with it quite a bit.

It seems that dove and other bird hunters added to the number of trap and skeet shooters is going to outnumber the number of tactical military style rifle shooters by quite a bit. So hopefully they'll practice more and be a little bit more familiar with a shotgun than they would with a military style semi-auto rifle. It's completely possible to miss with a shotgun at close range, but most people tend to shoot sporting firearms much more and so it seems much more likely that they'll get good hits even when under stress.

A semi-auto shotgun that soaks up some of the recoil might also be a good weapon for a woman or a teenager. That way they'll instantly have a second, third, fourth and fifth shot (or possibly even more) as quick as they can sqeeze the trigger and they won't have to give away their position by racking the slide. I know that some people count on the noise of a shotgun being racked to scare someone off, but some burglars might respond to the sound of a shotgun being racked by shooting where they think that the sound came from instead of running away the way that the person expects and thinks that they would. I'd prefer to shoot the burglar instead of trying to scare them with a sound if they've already broken into my house and if I believe that they're about to attack me.

#4 buck would be my load of choice.

BOONER
May 31, 2007, 01:52 PM
The Box of Bs......I will stick to real world and actual facts and reports from depts and ME's and my own experiences,

I choose the AR
Repeate hit capability
low recoil.
ease of one handed operation
less penetraion (actual documented reports and testing in homes and shootings.
very good at ending life functions.


here is some more reading

http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=page&page=223articles

SatCong
May 31, 2007, 02:28 PM
12 ga, for close range in home, it's better then a pistol.:cool:

armoredman
May 31, 2007, 02:36 PM
Yugo SKS. Why? Because I have one, and none of the others.

foghornl
May 31, 2007, 02:52 PM
My humble 1/50th of $1 . . . .

First up (As it is the "Bedside Table Companion") is the Springfield 'GI-45'. Next I have the Maverick 88 with #4Buck. If I run those both dry, then either it is TEOTWAWKI, and/or said miscreants are Body Armored. Then I pick up the Most Serious Artillery...The US Rifle Cal .30 M1 Popularly Known As "The Garand".

CU74
May 31, 2007, 05:38 PM
HD = HOME defense. Not a long-range rifle defense situation.

S&W Model 586 on nightstand; Mossberg 500A 12 GA. pump with #4 buck in the corner.

Oh yeah, a couple of brass-chuckers in the closet (1911A1 and S&W 5946).

boerseun
May 31, 2007, 07:29 PM
I voted Shotgun - even though I don't use mine for HD - barrel is too (it's a hunting shotgun with a 28" pipe).
To the folks that said "The whole racking of a shotgun to scare the BG's off with the sound is BS"
Ever been on the receiving end of that sound? I have, and I assure you, I reconsidered my actions!

wraith56
May 31, 2007, 11:55 PM
Don't know if someone already said this but...

use the one you can handle the best.
The one you shoot the most.
The one that automatically lines up on your target by reflex.

If you don't know which one that is, spend more time shooting.

mister_wilburn
June 2, 2007, 10:53 PM
Check out the ballistic gelatin comparison of calibers and gauges. The 12 ga. has an awesome amount of knockdown power at ranges up to 50 yards, and tears apart gelatin (or flesh), not a small hole that goes deep and expands, gaping hole that separates the gelatin into multiple pieces. I dont know about you, but my yard isn't so big, 50 yards is in someone elses house. The realistic confrontation range (for me) is much much shorter, more like 10 or 15 yards. And in that range, the 12 gauge shines. 00 buck in a plain ole remington 870 is my choice for HD, hands down.

Nematocyst
June 3, 2007, 01:03 AM
I own an 870, not a 500.
(See user name.)

But I voted for the 12 anyway.

12 gauge: 63.64%

It's light years ahead of the next category
(AR at 17%.)

This is no contest.

63 out of 100 gun owners agree:

12 rules for HD.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57556&d=1178354118

Rifleman 173
July 27, 2007, 02:04 PM
For close range "social events" in the dead of night: a 12 gauge shotgun backed up by a .45 pistol backed up by a sheath knife. My kit is a Remington 870 pump with a Sig Sauer P-220 with a tanto type sheath knife with an 8" blade.

For distances out beyond 15 yards or so: a good carbine type shoulder-mounted firearm backed up by a .45 pistol backed up by a sheath knife. For this action I have a .44 magnum lever action Marlin saddle carbine or a Bushmaster M-4 type .223 carbine backed up by my P-220 pistol and sheath knife.

Your friend should practice frequently with his choice of firearms and be able to transition smoothly from one firearm to another and back again. In other words, he should shoot his shotgun and then draw his pistol and then practice going back to his shotgun. He should document his training he gets/does and might even consider videotaping some of what he does and filing it away. If something does happen, he should know which attorney he is able to call in the middle of the night and he should let the attorney know about the documentation/videotapes that are on file so that the attorney can use them as needed or not.

Have a plan and then have a back-up plan just to be safe.

Bitswap
July 27, 2007, 09:25 PM
Shotgun with the shortest barrel you can put on it (legally) with 00 buckshot and surefire flashlight. Racking a round will get everyone's attention and immedatly know what it is, and when it hits, they'll be dead. Just make sure what your shooting at with the surefire. Neighbor friendly as far as penetration goes.

Some alternate bird shot and buck, no time to be nice here, I say all buck. Dead people can't sue. Anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting twice.

Add a three point sling and take a HD shotgun class and your set. Use a standard stock.

Yes, there was a reason why the good guy in 'Terminator 1' choose a shotgun.

This is for inside the house. For outside it's another story. For this I'd look at a 223 with an eotech. Farther out? Go 308.

Pistols are good for ccw and backup.

Why a shotgun? Well in most shootouts, usually the first round misses for pistols (don't bank on this). You just don't know how you'll react when faced with that kind of stressful situation. You may limp-wrist a semiautomatic and now your screwed. How many shots were fired at the OK Corral? and how many hit? Spot on the surefire and chances are you'll get a hit the first time plus blinding the bg.

There is another consideration here that is VERY important. Say you do kill someone and the county proscuter decides to go after you. The more 'generic' your gun, the better. He will paint you as a right-winged-conseritive-foaming-at-the-mouth-to-kill-anarchist if you do ANYTHING special to the gun. Trigger Job? Why? Special sights? Why? The surefire light can be easily explained away as to identify a target and not raise eyebrows. A super-Ar-15 or trick 1911 will put you in a bad light. Just the way juries are.

One last item. When you shoot something living, you don't notice the recoil, till after. Recommend going to a trap or skeet range and trying out a 12 guage then a 20 guage. 12 is recommended, but if more conforatble with the 20, go for it. 20 may be better for smaller human frames.

Now, which shotgun to get? The 870 is reliable and is the standard. Get one that will hold as many 2.75" rounds 'stock' as possible with the shortest barrel. Next choice would be the Mossberg 500. These are sometimes sold with two barrels, one for hd one for hunting. I have both. The 870 appears to be better made. I'd stay away from semiautos for hd. Oh, and if you do get one, get one that looks like a hunting shotgun with a wood stock... again the juries perception.

You need to keep in mind that the guy in your house may not mean you any harm. He could be your son coming home from college and didn't call or a drunk that mistakenly wandered into your house. There must be a threat and you need to identify and assess before you pull the trigger.

Nematocyst
July 27, 2007, 11:50 PM
12 rules for HD. That was me on June 2.

What a difference two months can make.

Now, don't get me wrong.
12 gauge still "rules" for HD.
Of that, I have little doubt.

But for me, the picture has changed.
I'm selling my 870 tomorrow.
(New owner is coming after it.)

It's a great, great gun. I've enjoyed owning it.
I came to THR to learn which 870 to buy,
bought it, learned from it, and enjoyed it.

But now, I've changed my mind.

I've decided, after much reflection and research,
that I'm just not a shotgun kind of guy.

I'm a rifle guy.

So, I'm giving up the 870 in favor of a carbine,
that will be mostly a camp gun, a walk around gun.

But it'll do nicely for HD if I need it.

Which one? 1894C in .357 mag,
to match the mod 65 in the same cal.

Full story can be be found elsewhere.

My '94C is on the way ...

briansp82593
July 28, 2007, 12:13 AM
im going to have to go with the SLP 12 ga with a pattern of buck-slug-buck-slug... too bad i dont have one, but i do have a mossberg 500 with one of those flamethrower shells nearby for a runner, and for up close and personal business i would say my G35

telomerase
July 28, 2007, 12:44 AM
1. Shotguns are longer and clumsier than 16" barrel rifles. Or even some 18" barrel rifles.
2. Follow-up shots are slower from a shotgun.
3. Buckshot overpenetrates sheetrock more than light-bullet or frangible rifle rounds. (Slugs stop [unarmored] people better than buck.. but you'd better live in Montana to use them!)
4. If your house is big enough that the shot spreads enough to matter... then some of the buck will miss the intruder and go sailing into the neighborhood.
5. Buckshot won't penetrate even light body armor.
6. A 30-rd mag holds a lot more energy than a 6-round tube.
7. Pump shotguns are less reliable than many rifles (not even counting short-stroking).
8. If you have to shoot around a family member, you sure don't want to use a buck load out of a cylinder bore :uhoh:.
9. You can't really stop a Terminator with a shotgun (you need a Barrett .50, but any rifle would penetrate better than a Foster slug)

All that said...

use the one you can handle the best.
The one you shoot the most.
The one that automatically lines up on your target by reflex.

Hard to argue with that. Use whatever you won't forget to take the safety off of...

Stevie-Ray
July 28, 2007, 01:33 AM
CAR-15. Because I've got one and not a shotgun. For me, it's handguns mostly. But I do keep a few AR mags loaded.;)

Rexster
July 28, 2007, 02:46 AM
I saw at least one post that mentioned short-stroking pump shotguns; that is indeed a problem I have seen in fellow police officers at shooting classes and qual lines. I have never short-stroked a shotgun, probably because I trained myself to SLAM the forearm fully to the rearmost position, and then SLAM it forward, from the very beginning. I guess some guys want to speed things up to much, or perhaps they are trying to baby the gun, to treat it gently.

Dannavyret
July 28, 2007, 09:22 AM
I like to keep it simple, a Remington 30 sport rifle with a Bulvar scope.

Dannavyret
July 28, 2007, 09:24 AM
5. Buckshot won't penetrate even light body armor.

When's the last time you ever seen a home robbery perp wearing body armor?

Cocked & Locked
July 28, 2007, 09:40 AM
870 Police Magnum (20" Imp. Cyl.) works for me...

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL523/3082611/6263277/268027575.jpg

Therfore, I voted for the shotgun :cool:

indie
July 28, 2007, 10:22 AM
dont have one yet, But after much deliberation i have decided that i would feel more confident in defending my family all around with a semi auto rifle than a shotgun.

so, it will be a Saiga 7.62x39 for me for multi purpose. Vicious Dogs, Rioting and Looters, home invasions, and plinking/practice

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/076316000/76316610/pix3003458843.jpg

why the choice?

1. Shotgun pattern..as other have mentioned. I am concerned about a situation where a family member could be in the line of fire. Imagine a bad guy has a hold of your child, and you have a shotgun loaded with buckshot. I'd rather risk overpenetration than peppering my child with buckshot. In buying a long gun, precision is possibly the main factor. I want to hit my target with as much precision as possible, not just send a fist full of projectiles hurling in its direction.

2. Recoil. My wife should be able to handle it as well.

3. Quick follow up shots.

4. Capacity and quick reloads. I know its unlikely to need to reload in the typical situation, but if you're prepared, you're prepared for the atypical situations as well.

5. Cost of Ammo. I can get a whole lot more practice with a rifle defensive load than a shotgun defensive load.

6. the saiga with the 16 inch barrel and skeleton stock is easier to wield than a HD shotgun IMO, and its not uncontrollable with a pistol grip type configuration.

Landlocked Pirate
July 28, 2007, 10:43 AM
My Mossberg 12 ga. 20" 8-shot Model 500 is my favorite, but my bedside long gun is a Remington 870 Express with an 18" barrel and standard magazine because it's much handier.

telomerase
July 28, 2007, 12:29 PM
When's the last time you ever seen a home robbery perp wearing body armor?

According to the FBI, criminals use body armor "routinely" (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_n3_v64/ai_16984614).

Of course the FBI has been known to fib a bit in the interest of higher budgets :D. The heavily armored bank robbers that the crime shows love to show over and over are still the exception.

Still, you see surplus kevlar vests at gun shows for $100; sooner or later even Joe Dirtbag is going to notice. The point here is that high velocity bullets can give you lower overpenetration on soft materials and better penetration on armor, the best of both worlds.

BTW the poll is missing two important categories: better-quality AKs, and lever carbines.

Nematocyst
July 28, 2007, 02:45 PM
BTW the poll is missing two important categories: better-quality AKs, and lever carbines.Yep.

But I've changed my vote to lever carbine, anyway. (See #108.)

indie
July 28, 2007, 02:59 PM
telo you nailed a couple more considerations for my choice. The quality and rugged extreme condition reliability of the saiga rifle. And the ability to penetrate body armor.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 28, 2007, 03:20 PM
8. If you have to shoot around a family member, you sure don't want to use a buck load out of a cylinder bore .

Actually with the caveat that you:

1)Pattern the shotgun at different ranges with the defense ammunition you plan to use
2) Use a modern shotgun loading such as the Hornady TAP or Remington Reduced Recoil load

Then there are several shotguns I would feel quite comfortable making that shot with at household distances. Like anything else though, the bangstick does you no good if you don't also invest in the training. A .22LR that you use and know may well be better than the 12ga Wilson Vang-comped tactical shotgun that you have never fired.

SecondAmend
July 28, 2007, 11:58 PM
This is "Mercy". She watches over us at night.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r103/latinocowboy/02/DSCN1390-1.jpg
870 Express Magnum, 18.5", 6+1

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