[Katana8869]

I decided to by a Kimber based on all the good things I had heard about them in the past. While I was waiting, I started going to diferent gun boards and reading up on them and I was amazed at how bad many people claimed their experiences were.

I even posted here and on some other forums about it, but most responses indicated it was only so much errornet non-sense. With that in mind I decided to go through with the purchase.

Now I am one of those posting about how crappy my Kimber is.

My gun, a Pro Carry HD II is the most disappointing gun purchase I have ever made. I decided to get my 500 round break in done and experience every kind of malfuntion possible. Multiple FTF's, some on the 1st round out of the magazine, some out of the last, brass ejecting into my face several times, and I lost count of how many times I had to push the slide into battery. Let's also not forget the slide repeatedly locking open on loaded magazines.

I called Kimber who of course wanted it sent back. I hate dealing with the whole shipping it back scenario, but Kimber offered to pay for the shipping so what the hey.

I work a really crappy schedule, so it was worked out for Kimber to have UPS pick the gun up where I bought it. I dropped it off on thursday and thought no more of it. Today I found out it is still at the shop because Kimber never called the shop back to set up the pick-up ticket for UPS :fire:

All of my frustration aside, when did Kimber decide it is okay to ship guns that are so rough and tight, that they require 500 rounds or more for break in? Every range report posted online seems to include "I had x# FTF and I had to push it into battery and the slide locked back prematurely x# times.

Give me a break! How can a company that supplies guns to the Marine Corps and law enforcement have this kind of QC trouble?

Since when is good manufacturing putting out guns that are so tight and out of spec that bitching at Dennis at the custom shop and sending guns back to New York seems to be part of the standard review on virtually every Kimber product?

What really concerns me is that those that do send their guns back don't seem to fare much better. I hope that's not a club I am about to join as well (that is if I can get them to just pick the damn thing up like they promised :cuss: )

I know Kimber couldn't have gotten to where they are now and gained the reputation that they have (had?) on this kind of stuff. What in the world has happend to this company?

[Just Jim]

My opinion is that Kimbers went bad when they stared making the IIs. They started messing with Brownings gun and screwed it up. I own two early models and they run perfect and shoot straight. I would never buy a two model.

jj

[sm]

Agree with above.
The OLDer Kimbers before "Series I" are fine guns as are the OLDer Series I .
I do not do Series IIs

[gudel]

so did you get your gun fixed?

[glockman19]

My Raptor II and Custom II have performed flawlessly for me. NO FTF's NO FTE's just aim, pull trigger and the round goes exactly where I point it. I like them so much I'm planning on getting a Pro Raptor II and Ultra Raptor II to round out the Raptor II Collection in addition to an Ultra Carry II. They do produce alot of guns and I'm sure some go out without meeting Quality Control. Does your's have the internal or external extractor? I've heard of problems with external. All mine are internal.

[cslinger]

Not to worry Kimbers president moved on to SIG which means he will F up SIG for a while. :scrutiny: :banghead:

[Katana8869]

so did you get your gun fixed?

No it's still sitting in the shop where I bought it waiting for Kimber to pick it up.

Kimber promised me they would send the shop a pick up order for UPS on thursday and failed to follow through. The shop has called them and advised them it is there as well. They have not gotten a call back or any other response from Kimber.

Glockman19, it is an internal extractor. I have only had it since last weekend.

I did the break in all in one day. 500 rounds of FMJ, JHP RNL and LSWC. I had malfuntions with every type of ammo used.

During the break in, I cleaned and lubed the gun every 150 rounds. The problems did not lessen as the session went on but stayed the same all the way through.

Even on the last batch of ammo fired I got failures to feed and failures to return to battery.

Edit to add: I fired the LSWC first and initially wasn't all that concerned. I know LWSC can be hard to digest, especially for a new gun, but everything else had problems too.

[targatop]

I was super surprised to see Kimbers lining the walls of Sportsmans Warehouse today, being tossed around for $800 or less in most cases - with some customs. They must have had 20 Kimbers on the wall of the Sportsman Warehouse today - far more 1911's than any other brand. My impression is that they were generally hard to come by - now I see them everywhere. Maybe they've bumped production to meet demand and lost some quality in the process - much like Harley Davidson went through in the 1980's. HD finally fixed their quality issues by cutting back production and focusing on quality again. Hopefully they will pick it back up - or that these are random cases - because they are a gun I have hoped to add to my collection.

[steveno]

I have a Kimber sst compact (internal extractor) that has 6,000 rounds through it with no problems. I wanted a full size 1911 so I got a S & W 1911 because of what I percieve as quality problems at Kimber real or imagined.

[xring44]

I have a commander size CDPII custom shop Kimber, it has run flawlessly from day one, very accurate........

[Adder]

No issues here with my Raptor II

[1 old 0311]

Years ago EVERYONE agreed Kimber was 'top shelf.' I wouldn't touch one now.

[Ala Dan]

I also have had NO issues with my Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II, and use
it as my everyday CCW piece~! ;) :D

[Hawk]

I've found divining one's chances of getting a bowser from teh intr4w3b to be a challenge.

I responded in your "stop order" thread so won't repeat myself.

I would like to know if service has improved any. Most of the deepest BS came from my dealer, not Kimber directly.

Nevertheless, it was an experience I don't care to repeat. I'm sure the majority of new product runs fine and I might even buy a used one from a member who posts here that his runs great. However, I wouldn't give you 75.00 for a new tacticalgrandraptercustomtargetwarriorII.

I'm worn out with being an unpaid QC inspector. STI, Colt and others don't require it of me. In fact, Kimber seems unique in expecting it.

[skynyrd1911]

I bought a Colt Defender a few years ago and it was JUNK. I too own a "Series I" Kimber and it's the most dependable gun I own.........besides my Ruger SP101. I would probably buy a Series II if I could find a smoking deal on one. Right now I'd like to have a Series I Compact.

[dhoomonyou]

I HAD A Pro carry2, lotsa lotsa trouble.
External extractor, jams galore, KIMBER (DENNIS in the custom shop, A very NASTY person.) refused to pay for return shipping, started to question the way I was maintaining the gun. wanted me to replace all springs (at my cost) and let them know. traded it for a GLOCK 26, been VERY happy since.

[Katana8869]

I'm worn out with being an unpaid QC inspector. STI, Colt and others don't require it of me. In fact, Kimber seems unique in expecting it.

From what I am gathering and based on my own experience, that seems to be exactly what is happening.

The guns are built extremely tight, then released with seemingly no inspection at all. It is then up to the customer to either waste a bunch of money on ammo to "break it in" or do an inordinate amount of legwork to get Kimber to do what they should have done before the gun left.

I thought my Pro Carry would make an ideal carry piece, but after it's dismal initial performance, I would have alot of trouble ever trusting my life to this gun.

[Katana8869]

Years ago EVERYONE agreed Kimber was 'top shelf.'

That was the reputation that I bought this one one. I have always heard good things about them and handled and shot ones that belonged to other people.

I always considered them something that would be a good buy.

The thing is, what really pisses me of is this was a gun that my Dad and I talked about alot. He always said he would like to own one someday. I lost him in October and I bought it in his memory.

I don't think I have to say any more. I'm sure you guys get where I 'm going with that...

[Geno]

Hawk:

Amen to that! Let me lay a quote on you all from "Dennis" since his name has now been presented. It was with Dennis that I had 100% of my Kimber "dealings" during my run of 5 defective "Custom" Shop Kimbers. When I asked Dennis how all of these “Custom Shop” pistols managed to make it through CQ, he retorted,

"We turn out 1,000 pistols a day. There are bound be some slip through with issues! We just have people return them and we'll make it right".

Yeah, eventually! I have owned 14 or 15 Kimbers! I know Kimbers, and I know them well! Kimber's problem is deeper than mechanical...it's "inter-personal", as in "personnel". Call the Senior Executive Vice President of Customer Relations...he knows Dennis' name reeeeeal well...believe me...he had Dennis' "number".

I bought the Warrior that I presently have listed for sale here, because it is a Series I. It runs great, but in spite of the fact that is accurate, and never fails with any ammunition, I just can't get past the way Dennis at Kimber treated me. So, my solution is to do away with Kimber altogether. I personally do not care to ever risk any future interactions with Dennis at Kimber, and that means selling my last Kimber, my Warrior, in spite of the fact that it runs great!

Have any of you ever tried to sell a used Kimber? If you can pull that off, go buy a lottery ticket...you'll be as-likely to win the lottery-as to sell your used Kimber.

Doc2005

[dhoomonyou]

EXACTLY.

what happened to making sure the product is "debugged" before it leaves the plant?

and then the KIMBER (dennis) attitude is "blame the victim"

He wanted to see receipts for the springs I replaced, claiming that if I had a car with engine trouble the manufacturer would want to see oil change records!! you know its a problem with the internal extractor, just replace it (slide) and I will go away if it works well. HE said send it in , KIMBER willl not pay shipping because its my problem not a defect.

I SAID KMA.

I tried to call the Presidents office and got now where.

I paid close to $700 for the pro carry 2, and had very few trouble free range sessions, and certainly no faith in it as a self defender.

[givo08]

I think they spend more money for their full page color advertisements in every gun mag out there than they do on QC.

[ID_shooting]

This has been going on for years. Just do a search on my name and Kimber. I owned one, will never own another again. I am one of the "owned a kimber, got my money back and bought a Glock" crowd.

What bugs me most about it is that they admit to having issues yet still charge custom gun prices. I feel in order to turn them selves around they will have to fix thier QC issues and drop the price to the $500 range in order to win a good following back.

[Geno]

Fellas:

As soon as I can get my daughter off of the cable internet and I can access it, I will post about 14 pictures of one of these "Custom" Shop pistols...a Pro Raptor. It was the 4th of 5 defective pistols that I bought last summer. Even after 750 rounds of ammunition fired, the problems, such as failures to go into battery, etc persisted. Now when I say failures, I mean 7 or 8 out of every 10 round magazine. By the way, changing out magazines is pure BS. Wait until you see this Pro Raptor's pitted rails on the receiver, the pitted bore of the barrel, the bent hammer (the loop was bent…difficult to see in pictures…obvious in person), the gouged-out receiver, gauged out by the spur on the slide's firing pin block plunger. It also had a bent safety on the right-hand side. I swear, I think Kimber maintains a box of defective parts, and from time-to-time, they build a 1911 from defective parts just to pi$$ someone off. If a picture is worth a thousand words, the 14 pictures that I will post constitutes an encyclopedia of Kimberology.

After I post those pictures, you tell me if I over-reacted to call the SEVP. Also tell me if you would have been upset that the pistol was boxed up, shipped back to you, untouched, and never repaired under the guise that the parts were all "...within specs..."!

Doc2005

[Kevinch]

I dunno, I must be a lucky one. I have 2 Kmber 1911 pistols, both Series I, a full sized Stainless (the base 1911 in SS), & the 3" Ultra CDP.

Both work they way they should. I just took a 1 day Handgun Class with my wife & daughter, used the Stainless & it ran without incident for over 200 rounds.

As far as guns going back to the manufacturer, I've done that with S&W, Ruger, & Taurus. It's a hassle to return them, but all were fixed to my satisfaction & returned.

Slightly off-topic, if I did have a handgun - revolver, SA auto, DA auto, etc - that needed repair that was not covered by warranty, I'd consider sending it to an independant gunsmith before going back to the factory. For lifetime warranty coverage, I think the only choices are Taurus & S&W. On the internet, it seems that S&W does get the nod for Best Customer Service when compared to Taurus & Kimber.

[Geno]

Kevin:

No, you're correct...your pistols were series I. My Series I Kimbers were excellent! Even my first 8 or so series II were excellent. Kimber's big problems began about 2 to 3 years back. They went full-blown at the time of the notorious external extractor! These 5 defective pistols were all purchased within an (approximate) 6-month period. I suspect that the defective pieces of junk persist in re-circulating. Until those defective pistols are fixed, or melted down, they will continue to plague shootists. Now, all manufacturers put out defective products...it happens, but not to this degree. And or course, it would be absurd to assert that Kimbers are "junk". They are not junk...they are excellent. The company simply produces an unacceptable number of defective pistols, and further, Dennis (or someone at Kimber) fails to assure that they are fixed right the first time.

Doc2005

[Katana8869]

The company simply produces an unacceptable number of defective pistols, and further, Dennis fails to assure that they are fixed right the first time.

That is exactly what my biggest fear is here. I have seen plenty of post where Kimbers were returned to the custom shop, then came back not fixed. I do NOT want to get into that kind of circle.

I think I know what to do with it for the most part. I ordered an improved XP recoil spring from Wolff, I know that I could either file or replace the slide stop, and even though the tension on the extractor seems okay, I could either try to tune it or just replace it with one of the Bullet Proof models from Wilson.

My main reason for sending it back is that I am hoping that Kimber will go ahead and polish the feed ramp and perhaps work the chamber a little bit. But like we said above, I shouldn't have to deal with this at all.

When I spend over $800.00 for a gun, I should be out shooting it, not dealing with trying to fix the damn thing 1 week after I bought it.

[Geno]

As promised, I am posting 14 pictures of a defective Pro Raptor. This is "Custom" shop quality?!

Pitted bore:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor1.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor2.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor3.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor4.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor5.jpg

Gouged receiver:


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor6.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor7.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor8.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor9.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor10.jpg


Firing pin block w/spur that gouged receiver:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor11.jpg


Pitted receiver rail:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor12.jpg


Failures to go into battery 7 or 8 out of 10 shots, even after 750 rounds:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor13.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/Doc2005/Raptor14.jpg

[orionengnr]

Wow, that is discouraging. I have owned four so far and have had no problems whatsoever. Mine were/are a mix of pre-Series II (one each) and Series II (three), External extractor (one) and Internal (three). All were/are alloy framed, one 4" and three 3". Each was bought used.

What did the letter to the VP result in?

[Hawk]

The team comprised of my (former) dealer and Kimber provided some of the most entertaining attempts at deflecting blame for FTRTBs from the weapon to the user that I've ever heard.

Limp-wrist (boring, everybody uses that one).

It doesn't like that ammo (Federal Red Box, some Fed EFMJ and assorted Cor-Bon). One wonders what it will like.

Insufficient break-in.

Poor maintenance. (It's unclear how something is, at once, both insufficiently broken in and over-used).

You must've dropped it. (in response to the safety that shattered while [trying to] shoot).

But the best example of weasel talk that I have ever had to endure has to be this one: It has a 3" barrel; everybody knows those have problems, you should buy a 4" or 5"... from us.... I could see a manufacturer claim such a thing if they didn't catalog one, but if you put in your book and / or in your display case you have forfeited all right to whine about short barrels being impossible to execute correctly. I believe my (ex) dealer gets all the credit for this one - can't blame Kimber.

History will record that removal of the type II parts cured my limp-wrist, removed the firearm's finicky nature with ammo, resolved all break-in and maintenance issues and evidently caused the barrel to grow in some parallel universe. It did not magically restore the shattered safety but there are limits to everything.

It runs like a champ now, but I'll have to electro-pencil the "Type II" markings off someday. 'Course I can't sell it or carry it but I don't view that as much of a loss.

[Jubjub]

I just talked to someone who was very pleased with a new Ultra Carry. I assume it's a II, though he didn't say specifically. It was a raffle prize at an NRA banquet, so I would think it would be a new new gun.

He said that it functioned great, and was surprisingly accurate for such a little gun. His only complaint was that disassembly was a bit perplexing, and the manual was useless.

[Kevinch]

Kimber's big problems began about 2 to 3 years back. They went full-blown at the time of the notorious external extractor!

Doc2005 - am I to understand that it is your belief that most of these problems came to be on the guns with the external extractor?

[10-Ring]

I had a Custom II for a while & it was okay. I bought it used so I'm not sure when it was produced, but from my experience, the II's can be nice guns. But I've read negative expiences about new guns from almost everyone....hopefully, you're that one in a million & it comes back in good working order.

[Sodbuster]

Not to worry Kimber's president moved on to SIG

You got that right, cslinger. You're probably aware of the discussions at Sig forum lamenting the new breed of Sigs, both the P-series and the Revolutions. And more than laments, actual... problems. :eek:

I was super surprised to see Kimbers lining the walls

I think Kimber makes a dealer purchase a minimum quantity of pistols in order for that dealer to provide Master Dealer pricing. The minimum is quite a few. A dealer can't compete in pricing if he buys only a few.

The only Kimber I ever owned was a non-Series II (the original) Ultra Carry. For all the badmouthing you hear about Officer-size 1911s, that pistol functioned flawlessly. Literally. My only concern was with the lower velocity necessitating lighter bullets.

[Geno]

Kevinch:

No, I am merely stating an observation. I simply know that it was in that time frame that I purchased my defective Kimbers. Of the 14 or 15 Kimbers that I have owned, all were outstanding quality in terms of their fit and function…save for 5 purchased in that 6 month period. My current Warrior is a series I style pistol (no firing pin block), and internal extractor. It functions flawlessly.

I have heard many shootists make the assertion that the problem was the external extractor. That is one problem. The external extractor would not and could not be causal to all of the problems that Kimber is facing, i.e. note the pitted barrel bore?! Ah, no relationship. The failures to go into battery? Doubtful, but it could contribute…perhaps. Whatever Kimber's problems, they need some very serious introspection. They are losing customers who historically have been fanatically loyal.

For my part, I will not take my business back to Kimber for whatever duration of time the current management runs the "Custom" shop. So long as that mismanagement persists, the causal contributors to the pistols' failures make no difference in ultimate customer satisfaction. In the end, it is the "Custom" shop that fails to make timely, and professional corrective repairs.

Doc2005

[another okie]

I have no inside information about Kimber, but I suspect some gun manufacturers have figured that a lot of the people buying guns, and maybe especially 1911s, fire about five rounds through them, are happy, and put them away.

People who fire lots and lots of rounds are the ones who find the problems. People like the members of THR, who are a minority.

So maybe some manufacturers have decided it's cheaper to use the high round count folks as their beta testers and fix those few guns that come back, than to get them all right the first time. All those 1911s out there with five rounds fired through them may have the same problems, but the owners will likely never know.

[Geno]

another okie:
I think you just nailed it Re: customers' expectations. Some people simply want a pretty face regardless of performance. If it goes "boom" they're happy. They take it home and feel content that if a badguy comes into their house that the Kimber will be there. For me, I CCW. My pistol, regardless of how pretty or how ugly must perform.

Hawk:
Oh my word! I've heard every single one of those lame excuses! Between Kimber and the sales person, they had all the bases covered! It wasn't until they stood to lose my business that they gave a dang. Well, in the end they lost my business....both Kimber and the gun store lost my business. I plan to sell my last Kimber (and I will have to sell it with a full-function assurance or free return to me), or it will never sell...after all, it is a Kimber.

Doc2005

[Nomad, 2nd]

So Doc, since it's a POS... how cheap ya gonna go?

Let me know.

[Gary Frost]

I have several Kimbers in several calibers,Berettas, cz and other manuf. The first thing I do is take them to my pistol smith and have them warmed up. Being an avid USPSA shooter I rarely see a pistol out of the box run at high speed wo any trouble. Also very important, HAVE YOUR MAGS TUNED TO THE GUN.
I have standing orders at my pistol smith, if a series 80 or series II be sure to inspect the bottom of the rear sight. If anything falls out when the sight is removed don't put it back.

[Geno]

Nomad, 2nd:

That's good! I posted it at $1,000.00. I took the post down because it said MI (only). I will repost it for all states as soon as I get new pictures to post. My Warrior is fine. It functions flawlessly. I'm just turned off on Kimber from my experiences.

In all seriousness, I refuse to sell a firearm that will not function flawlessly. I had a Kimber Ultra Eclipse that was defective that cost me $999.00; I sold it for $375.00 because it remained defective even after being "repaired" by Kimber. The Warrior is not in that boat. It's tight, accurate and reliable.

In fact, it is my home defense (night stand) pistol. That fact does not change the past experiences with Kimber, right?

Doc2005

[SiG Lady]

I had a Stainless Target in .45ACP for about three years and it was flawlessly reliable and never showed unusual wear (or hardly any wear at all) the whole time. Comfortable and accurate. It was (reluctantly) sold to finance a Kimber Grand Raptor II (nearly-NIB) that was purchased a few short months ago. It's been great. Barrel bushing a little tight, but that'll ease up, I'm sure, as it's more a matter of the textured finish on its surface than a poor fit. Damn gun was all-but-new when it arrived, and it seems quite accurate. Not as tight as a Les Baer, but reminiscently close.

Even took it to the range for a little workout yesterday and was reminded how nice it was. It 'feels' a little different than the Stainless Target, but no two guns are ever exactly the same. The older Kimber felt like a pair of comfortable broken-in shoes; the Raptor is the new pair of shoes, still breaking in. :cool:

[Cesiumsponge]

I have the Kimber Warrior which has the series I internals. I was told there might be a break-in period to smooth up the roughness when I purchased it.

I did the 250 round break-in with no failures of any type using a mixture of WWB and Rrem UMC but that's my personal experience. The only gripe I have is the Kimpro finish seems to wear off if you even stare at it.

A friend has one of the Pro-carry compact Kimbers as well which he purchased around the same time I did. I don't recall getting any failures when I was shooting it during the same break-in range period.

Granted, two pistols is far from the typical representation of Kimber products but I haven't been let down yet. I probably just won't get myself another Kimber since I'm not fond of the series II internals and I believe only their Warrior series use the series I guts.

[kentucky_smith]

Have 2 full-size Kimbers, a 96 manufacture and a 2006 manufacture. Both are flawlessly running and very accurate works of art.

[lance22]

Those photos will be hard for me to forget ... yikes ... I hope a Kimber rep reads sees them.

I bought a Kimber Tactical II (pro size) about 9 months ago as an alt carry piece. I have about 1,200 rounds through it and it's had about 3 ftf's. Not perfect but really, really good. No complaints.

My older brother bought an Ultra Carry two weeks after I bought my Kimber. He's had a lot of feeding problems with it. And, one of my friends dumped his small fleet of Kimbers because the company would not stand behind it's warranty on a faulty Eclipse that he had.

So, I got lucky ... but it's obvious that Kimber's are become pretty hit and miss as far as their quality goes. You might get a lemon, you might get a gem, and you don't know until after you buy.

[skynyrd1911]

It is a shame that a new $800 pistol should have to go back to the factory so soon after purchase no matter what brand it is. I guess I'm just lucky with my Kimbers & Springfields. Not so lucky with Colt & Para's.

[Pumpkinheaver]

I have a 5" series I Kimber and never had a problem with it. Bought a 4" series II last year and guess what, no problems. Any mass produced item is subject to having a lemon slip by QC once and awhile. I don't care if it is a Ford, Chevy, Springfield or Kimber.

[the pistolero]

I think Kimber makes a dealer purchase a minimum quantity of pistols in order for that dealer to provide Master Dealer pricing.

Close -- from what I've heard from several FFLs, to get master dealer pricing & services, a dealer has to purchase either $12,000 or $15,000 worth of Kimbers. And I've just been lucky, I guess. My two Kimbers have been good to me and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

[mljdeckard]

I have a Custom II that I bought four years ago for $630 from Sportsman's Warehouse, and it has been flawless in every way.

In every game of statistics, there is a measure of inevitability. Even if the odds are 1/1,000,000, someone has to get #1,000,000 sooner or later. I would not be at all concerned if I heard one guy in a shop complaining, because most of the time it's going to be a guy who doesn't follow care and maintenence rules and screws all kinds of things up and blames manufacturers. He's also got a dead transmission and a computer full of viruses.

Now, on the other hand, if Kimber has made it more like 1/100 pistols that are seriously flawed, this is something that they need to fix before word of mouth destroys many years' worth of good reputation. If their head service dept guy has so many complaints that all Kimber owners know him by name and reputation, this also needs to be examined.

What makes me crazy is listening to people who claim that any pistol in this category is unacceptable because it costs less than a Wilson/Les Baer/ Ed Brown etc. Spending 2k on a pistol certainly won't eliminate these problems.

[jad0110]

Doc2005,

Jeez, in your photos it looks as if a very tiny person with a very tiny shotgun blasted buckshot all around the inside of the bore. :eek:

And I see what you mean about the bent hammer in pic #10. Dropped at the factory perhaps? :what: . I am sorry to hear about all your troubles. I hope everything works out well for you.

I won't be looking at Kimber anytime soon. I'm more interested in a back-to-basics, no frills 1911 anyway. It appears the Springer Mil-Spec is right up my alley.

[Geno]

I think some people have missed the reason that I posted the pics of the Pro Raptor. I agree that even the best QC will miss some. But, when they come back, for the pete sake, fix them.

The "Custom" shop director packed it back up, and returned it to me...untouched. After reviewing it, he found NOTHING wrong with my CCW pistol (that Pro Raptor). His answer...it was within spec.

Go back and take a look at that "custom" pistol, then answer me this, if you had been permitted to break it down before buying it, and you observed that damage, would you buy it?!

I will never buy another Kimber for one reason...the principle of the matter.

[skynyrd1911]

I understand...........

[sgtgeo]

I HAD A Pro carry2, lotsa lotsa trouble.
External extractor, jams galore, KIMBER (DENNIS in the custom shop, A very NASTY person.) refused to pay for return shipping, started to question the way I was maintaining the gun. wanted me to replace all springs (at my cost) and let them know. traded it for a GLOCK 26, been VERY happy since.

Same gun same issues. Dennis sent me two different extractor designs all the time saying this is some kind of isolated incident. Clearly there was a problem and they were trying different extractor designs to fix it. Well non of the worked. Sold that POS got a DW PT-CBOB that has been flawless

ETA: "All of your page 3 are belong to me"

[tbtrout]

No issues with my Warrior, but it was also made in the original design with none of the Series II crap added in.

[45auto]

" We turn out 1,000 pistols a day"

In their "dreams". :rolleyes:

Production numbers are posted by the BATF. They produce between 40-50,000 pistols per year if I recall.

Or, they don't work many days per year. ;)

[dhoomonyou]

914 964 0771

cant even get someone to complain to.

KIMBER will not get another penny from me.

[berettashotgun]

Liked mine, but REALLY liked the Para wayyyyyy better.
That was almost a decade (???) ago, wow, time flies.

[-terry]

...

[-terry]

To me there are two issues. First, the gun came to the dealer with a number of problems. At Kimber, either no one looked at the gun before shipping it to the dealer (no QA at all), or the gun was QA'd but the QA standards were so low that it passed and was shipped. Either is unacceptable in my view (as a former QA manager).

But the real problem is that when the defects were discovered, annotated, and demonstrated, Kimber did not stand behind it. If it were me, first I'd fire the QA team. Second, I'd hand pick as good a gun as I could find and ship it to the customer ASAP.

Result, more motivated (new) QA team, happy customer spreading the news about how Kimber goes the extra mile, and increased sales.

The final thing is to find out how a gun like that got made in the first place. Are there others? Who is examining the parts before assembly? If barrels are sub-contracted, call the sub and do a little chewing...and look at every barrel and send back those that are bad.

Sheesh! This is not rocket science, folks. Before long, people will find out what a wonderful gun a (Sig, XD, CZ, ??) is and your sales will stop. Everyone knows that a good reptutation is much harder to build than it is to (a) maintain (b) create.

PS: I've found that when finances get tight, the first thing to go is documentation, the second is QA.

-terry

[Hawk]

No issues with my Warrior, but it was also made in the original design with none of the Series II crap added in.

Apart from a crystal safety and a nasty tritium rear sight, I believe all my other Kimber issues related directly to a specific Type II part. They steadfastly maintained that the Type II could simply not be the problem.


The mere existence of the Warrior is enlightening in ways they likely never intended.

[Geno]

Precisely argued, Hawk! If the Series II parts were not causal to the problems, what possible motivation existed for Kimber to create the Warrior, and to extend then to the Dessert Warrior and let's not forget the Match Target (I think it's called). Three (3) new Series I Kimbers in as many years. :confused: Okay. Now, my Warrior is excellent. As I have said, it's my nightstand pistol. But, it's a Series I. Maybe Kimber will drop the Series II before the company loses too many customers.

Getting rid of the MIM parts may not help in reliability, but it can't hurt either. I'd rather the take the money saved in that extra step of creating series II out of series I, and redirect it to using barstock parts. Just a thought...but what do I know...I'm only their customer base. Anyone else here ever been contacted by Kimber for your opinion? I didn't think so. Kind of odd. As a former Mustang 5.0 owner, Ford contacted me pre-the-4.6L engine to asked my thoughts Re: the 5.7L versus the 4.6L before making the change away from 5.0L!

Let me throw out another positive of Kimber...just imagine the popularity of a stainless steel Warrior?!?!?! Offer the chamberings in a choice of 9MM, .38 Super, 40 S&W, 10MM or .45ACP! Checker the front strap, lose the bumped grip safety, and put an arched mainspring hosing. That would have to be one of the sweetest pistols ever created! As I said, I am not anti-Kimber...they just need to make some improvements.

Doc2005

[dhoomonyou]

IMPROVMENT NUMBER 1:

Give Dennis some lessons in customer SERVICE, dont blame the victim, or argue that the gun is fine, "it must be you".

[dhoomonyou]

IMPROVMENT NUMBER 1:

Give Dennis some lessons in customer SERVICE, dont blame the victim, or argue that the gun is fine, "it must be you".


NOTE: something went wrong with my computer, forgive the multiple posts.

[James NM]

Doc2005:

I've been inspecting the pictures you posted of your Pro Raptor. Wow!

I've seen guns in better condition after the Guns & Ammo torture test.:what:

[Boats]

We turn out 1,000 pistols a day.

Maybe they're counting multiple warranty returns?:D

Or perhaps he meant to say "We turn down a thousand pistols a day?":evil:

Back in 2002, with Colt's on what seemed to be end stage life support, I went shopping for my first clone.

I am a fan of Commander sized 1911A1s, so I was looking at a Kimber CDP as opposed to SA Champion Loadeds. At the counter, the clerk clears the CDP and locks it back on an empty magazine and hands it over. I look it over and it appeared to be a nicely finished weapon. Then I dropped the slide and the magazine rocketed out of the well. Not a good sign. Then I looked at it more closely, with a bore light down on the mag catch. Part of it had been sheared by the seating of the mag and it looked like bad pot metal. Definitely not bar stock machining anyways.

I wound up buying a Springer, saving about $150 in the process. I had an easy decision to make after seeing a Kimber fail during routine administrative handling. Three primary factors also swung the deal. One was that Imbel had done a magnificent job of machining the pistol I bought. Definitely not a Monday morning or Friday afternooner. Second, every component on it was properly installed as far as I could eyeball it. Ejector was pinned, plunger tube on straight and solid, the firing pin retainer was snug, the slide stop was properly marked by previous slide overrides, everything looked straight and true with no strange rub marks on the front of the slide from the dustcover or anything. Final clincher is that aside from a genuine Colt's repo or a used gun, it's about the closest thing to a Series 70 that one can buy off of the shelf. There is a ramped barrel, which I am indifferent about, the ILS, which has never been switched on, and there was a FLGR, which I knew I'd be dumping.

That gun has become my favorite 1911A1. I jokingly refer to it as my "Brazilian supermodel" Of course, as a 1911A1 owner I couldn't leave well enough alone and now the Champ is bushingless, FGLR-less, and features a mixed lot of premium American made aftermarket parts including, a Wolff recoil and firing pin spring, Wilson BulletProof extractor, an Ed Brown ambi safety, reverse plug and GI guide, a Cylinder & Slide pin set, sear, sear spring, and disconnector. The pistol has been to Robar once and its aftermarket non spring parts once. I just sent in its slide to Robar to get it NP3d. Despite trying to sell it last year during the dire need for a medical copayment, I wound up hanging on to it and am I ever glad that I have.

Oh, did I mention ZERO malfs ever?

I only mention the mods because the Springer's lack of tinkering with basic design (Series 80, Series II, or external extractors) allows for easy shadetree gunsmithing. Extractors in particular, a well known bugaboo with many companies not bothering with spring steel, are particularly easy to change on Springers. The only true oddity besides the ramped barrel, is the ILS, which I have left intact as it has never proven to be a problem.

Oh yeah, a big part of the decision was also "Deb." SA's customer service is more or less a constant presence at 1911forums.com. That is invaluable and SA treats it's 1911A1 buyers like these folks know how their weapons work, because frankly, most of them do. That's worth having to put up with "FI Brazil" on the bottom of the dust cover.

Then again, I have never needed SA's warranty service either.:D

I still wish Colt's would get its act together enough to see more than one example at a time on a local shelf or a table--when one sees them at all, but until they do, my Springer will continue to serve.

Kimber need not apply.

[Fun2Shoot]

Kimber's warranty, the worst of all 1911 makers :barf:

This is directly from Kimber's website:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is Kimber's Warranty Information?

Kimber firearms and accessories have a limited one year parts and labor warranty. Should you experience a problem within one year of purchasing a new Kimber product that cannot be resolved by speaking with the Kimber factory (Call (914) 964-0742 and ask for Warranty Service. There is not a toll free number for this purpose.) it will be necessary to return the item to the factory for evaluation. Kimber does not authorize any dealer or gunsmith to attempt repair or adjustments to Kimber products, and non-factory adjustments or modifications will void the warranty.

Shipping cost to return an item for service is the responsibility of the owner. Kimber will pay return shipping cost.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not exactly confidence inspiring is it?

You couldn't sell me a Kimber at half of MSRP! And yes, I have shot them as rentals, but to me they are a way over-priced & shoddy from what I read here and on other boards.

Oh yeah, I handled a nib Kimber once and I cut my thumb on the slide stop due to lousy QC. I mean the gun drew blood just from handling it.

I'll pass on the Kimber's made in Yonkers NY 1911's.

[Hawk]

<sigh>

Kimber is the only 1911 "misadventure" I've experienced. The SA loaded and Colt 80 ran fine and remain stock.

The DW "project gun" came out well, even the RIA restricted its problems to a mag catch - I needed practice fitting a McCormick catch anyway.

As far as fit, function, accuracy, trigger-action, 100% reliability go, my STIs have been outstanding. Even the customer service is great. I have, except for one thing, become an STI fanboy.

That one thing? The Kimbers are soooo much prettier. The Eclipse, especially with those Carbon Creations Blue/Black grips, looks fine. Even the "problem child" Ultra CDP looks good. It pains me that I won't buy another Kimber as the Raptor just looks really good to me. As do many of thier models.

Just call me "Shallow Hal", I guess.
</sigh>

My EDC is an STI VIP. It looks as plain as a mud-rail fence next to Doc's Pro Raptor. That shouldn't bother me but...

Somebody needs to steal whoever's in charge of Kimber's cosmetics and send him to Georgetown. Quick.

:o

[.45&TKD]

My full size Kimber TLE II has been flawless, even through the break even period. Internal extractor, bought a few years ago.

[Geno]

If I don't buy another Colt, next time I will buy the receiver, slide and remaining parts from Caspian...LIFETIME warranty...fitting available.

http://caspianarms.com/

Do you all like "Warriors"...check this sweetheart out: http://caspianarms.com/specials.html XR Kits...they should be rated..."XR" for << 'xtra rico >>, at $575.00!!!!

Care to guess who supplies Night Hawk their slides, receivers, etc? Caspian!!!!!

Hello XR Kit!

[Nomad, 2nd]

I wouldn't buy one of those... I don't go for external extractors on my 1911's.
(I was looking at that frame for a build when I decided to just go with the Kimber)

I AM interested to note why I have had NO problems with my Kimbers, I don't buy a series II anything.

[Geno]

Ditto. I do have all Series I and Series 70 1911s, save for 1 Colt 1911 Series 80 chambered in .38 Super. However Colt's Series 80 is a far-cry different from Kimber's Series II. For one, Colt's Series 80 is nearly what, 25 or 26 years old? I still prefer Series 70 or Series I. Less to fail. Of course my all-time favorite is the Colt 1910.

[XLMiguel]

I have owned 4 Kimbers, still have two, regret selling the other two. I have had 3 series 1's - a Custom Royale, stainless Compact, and an Ultra Carry, plus a 9 mm TacPro II. I still have the Custom Royale and TacPro, my BIL has the compact, sold the UC to another THR member. All have run well from day one, no muss, no fuss, ate whatever they were fed. All mfrs put out lemons from time to time, the important thing is what they do to make it right . . .

[Belgiboy]

I just bought the Custom Target II just 2 weeks ago and I have nothing but praise for it. Accurate, reliable and no problems whatsoever after about 300 rounds. I admit that is not a lot but i figure that any problems with feeding or ejecting would show up pretty much right away, but nothing so far. My only gripe is the supercrappy manual which made my first time putting it back together after fieldstripping and cleaning very frustrating. Once you've figured it out all by yourself, it is a breeze.

[BigG]

I thought once the hand built ones they gave to the gun writers and were marketed against the billboard marked Colt 1991 (at cheap prices) ran out. I was never impressed with them once they became mainstream.

[gudel]

this comes to the bottom line question, why are people still buying them?

[Haycreek]

My 1997 model Kimber Classic Gold Match runs like a sewing machine, BUT, my new 1911 is a 5 inch made be Detonic. It is fantastic, I'll buy another Detonics. Not very inexpensive, but quality is second to none. :)

[arkangel06]

:cuss: dont buy their conversions ive had nothing but trouble:banghead:

[45auto]

I've never talked to Kimber service, but I have to feel sorry for the guy!
Can you imagine taking the "brunt" of the "issues" with external extractors, series II, short barreled 1911's and they are the largest sellers of 1911's.


It probably was a sweet job when they produced only series I and no 3" 1911s. ;)

I'd still "guess" that the vast majority of Kimbers work well in the 5" barrel.

I wouldn't buy one because of the series II, but I'll still "stick up" for them in many ways. They did "reinvent" the production 1911 over 10 years ago, improved the overall quality, forced others to "step up", and they could "reinvent" themselves again IMO...it's time.

[Mot45acp]

My Ultra Carry CDP II is the first Officer 1911 to function without problems. After 2 Springers and a Colt that were single shots.

Just got a Custom II with external extractor. $500 no problems yet.

[CDignition]

None of the Kimber Pistols fall into "Custom" gun Pricing. A true custom will run you $2k and up...STI, Kimber, Colts, etc..none of em are customs..nor do they come with a custom price tag. If you think $800 bux is a custom gun price, you're fooling yourself.

I have fixed more Springfield's and colts than Kimbers, but have worked on a few...they have tight chamber issues(some folks like a tight chamber for target work, but cheap ammo wont work).. A little reamer and chamber polishing, and all if good....

I redid my Kimber Tactical..it is a nice carry gun, I added some checkering to the slide, and changed out safety, and lockwork. The anodizing is thin from the factory so I Duracoated it...it is VERY nice now..:)

http://www.cdignition.com/images/DSC01894_resize.JPG

[browningguy]

Kimber probably makes more 1911's than anyone, so more people to report problems.

I believe they also use a lot of MIM parts, good in the right application, but one of the recent reviews I read mentioned the sear and hammer were MIM. I really find that hard to believe but anything is possible. Keep in mind the reviewer made a big deal out of the slide, said Kimser wouldn't use castings because they were inferior to forgings, then in the next paragraph listed all the MIM parts.

[Geno]

"...one of the recent reviews I read mentioned the sear and hammer were MIM. I really find that hard to believe but anything is possible."

Yes, the hammer is MIM. Go to the pictures titled "gouged receiver" and look at the hammer. That weird void in the hammer is the MIM mark. A hammer machined from bar stock doesn't have that void.

[Kevinch]

Certainly, we should expect our guns to shoot when we buy them & also a level of QC that indicates pride in workmanship.

I will say this though - & hope I'm not flamed (it's only my opinion!) - that if a few pits on the rails & in the bore do not affect the accuracy & operation of the pistol, then I'd probably allow a pass on them. Granted, with everything else Doc has verified was wrong with his gun I don't blame him for pointing them out. I'm saying that if it was my gun, the pits were not rust, & it ran well & shot accurately, I'd probably just accept the pits.

Please don't hurt me.....:uhoh:

[Geno]

I would agree save for the fact that this is not a run-of-the-mill pistol. It is a "Custom Shop" pistol. The words "Custom Shop" make the difference.

Oh wow! Hey, Kevinch...you just reminded me of the Pro Raptor's other defect! When I fired it, the bullets' point of impact was approximately 3" to the left of the sights' point of aim at 5 yards. At 25 yards, it was at the papers edge. I had several people try the pistol, including one professional shootist. I was dead-on, and the sights were dead-wrong. Sheesh! I'm glad you posted that. I never would have thought to post that without that prompt to remind me! The sights were already pushed as far as could be adjusted. Again, Dennis asserted, "it was within spec". :)

Gene

[Katana8869]

Kimber picked up the gun on Tuesday morning and had it back here Friday afternoon.

The return invoice listed a whole laundry list of repairs that were done. They consisted of the following:

1. Polished the feed ramp
2. Reamed and polished the chamber
3. Adjusted the extractor
4. Adjusted the slide stop
5. Adjusted the grip safety
6. Replaced the ejector
7. Replaced the recoil spring

When I brought the home, it still felt like it had a weak recoil spring. The slide would come back at least 1/4 to 1/2 inch before there was any resitance from the spring. I am convinced that Kimber is putting the wrong springs in these guns.

While I was going through all of this I ordered a extra power recoil spring that Wolffe makes specifically for the Pro Carry guns. I took the OEM spring out and put the new one in and it was like a different gun.

I have not had the chance to do a formal range session yet, but I did take it out on the property this afternoon and simply blazed off 5 magazines of ammo, shooting to lockback as fast as it would fire, reloading and repeating.

No failures at all so far. (Thank God! :scrutiny: ) I am convinced however that would not have been the case with the factory spring.

I'd give Kimber a low "C" for service due only to the fact that they turned it around so fast after they finally picked it up. I would give them a "B" for repair because of the spring issue. Kimber REALLY needs to examine this issue. A undersprung 4" 1911 is not a platform from which anything good will come.

The moral to this story is still a lack of QC on Kimber's part. A product should work the first time. An $800.00 firearm should have every thing listed on the repair list done BEFORE it is shipped. I hope that the Kimber redeems it's self and becomes the carry gun that I bought it to be, but after this kind of a start, there is still a long road ahead to reach that destination.

[CDignition]

IF the spring was that short, it likely would not chamber the round...Springs are cheap...do you have any others laying around??..

Kimbers DO have tight chambers, as I stated in my last post...they wear out the reamers and don't swap them out fast enough. I have fixed more than one Raptor.

[Katana8869]

Over on 1911.org, someone said that the spring that Kimber is using in the Pro-Carry is basically the same as that used in the Colt Officer's ACP. Being that the Officer's model has a 3 1/2 inch barrel and the Kimber has a 4" barrel that would explain alot.

With the OEM spring that came with the gun as well as the new one that Kimber installed at the shop, there was at least 1/4 to 1/2 an inch of travel before the spring caught any real tension. With that being the case, it seems to me that most of the force bringing the slide home in the last bit of slide travel while feeding a round would be the momemtum of the slide itself.

Combine that with a tight or dirty chamber.... instant FTRB issues. When you read through Pro Carry range reports those letters come up over and over again.

The Wolf XP spring that I installed is made by Wolff for the Pro Carry. It is longer so it holds tension all the way through the cycle. It is also heavier at 23lbs -vs- 22lbs on the OEM spring.

The lady that I talked to at Wolff also told me that it is good for at least 1200 rounds -vs- Kimbers recommended 800 rounds for the standard spring.

The thread about this over at 1911.org that was very helpful. One of the guys over there also reported good results with a Wilson 22# spring that they offer for 4" 1911's. I might pick one of those up to try as well.

If anyone wants to check it out, it is here. It is a long read but very informative.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=29584

[Hawk]

Thanks for the update. The relationship may have started off rocky but you seem to have gotten some passable CS - orders of magnitude better than some report getting.

Perhaps we're seeing a turn-around?
That would be nice.

[.45&TKD]

I don't know if that's because of the heat here in AZ, and the fact that I'm using wax, not oil to lube

You should be using a good gun oil. I use FP-10. While I have used grease on other 1911's, I don't use anything but oil on my Kimber because of the tight tolerances.

[springmom]

Glad to hear the problem was resolved. Apart from the long time sitting and waiting, it sounds like they did pretty well with it.

I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II and it has never given me a moment's trouble. I almost didn't buy the thing from all the internet complaints about them, but my Kimber, at least, is super. It's my usual CCW (except part of the time in summertime, when I go "snubbie" for concealment) and it makes me look a lot more talented on the range than I am. :rolleyes: Excellent gun.

Springmom

[Katana8869]

Thanks Sringmom.

I took it out to the range today and all of the issues seem to be resolved except for the slide locking back on a loaded magazine. I fired 100 rounds of WWB fmj and 50 Remington jhp and had about 5 slide lock malfuntions.

Rather than jump through the whole process with Kimber again, I am just going to run the gun for awhile with the slide lock out of my Trophy Match and see what happens.

I also had 2 rounds nosedive in the magazine and fail to feed. This happened with the two 8 round McCormick magazines that I brought along. (1 malfunction per magazine). This happened at the begining of the range session within the first 50 rounds fired while shooting the WWB. The slide lock issue happend mainly with the stock Kimber magazine, but also happened once with one of the McCormicks.

Anyway, while the gun runs much better than it did, it isn't where it needs to be yet. :(

[.45&TKD]

Sid,

I like FP-10. It has similar dry bonding qualities like Militec, but is also a CLP. FP-10 is also a cleaner and a rust inhibitor, unlike Militec. FP-10 is also thicker than other CLP's, so it stays on better. I think that Kimber was recommending FP-10 at some point as well.

My Kimber TLE is my carry weapon and I'm also in the AZ desert.

[Geister]

I never quite understood what I would be getting with a Kimber while spending $700.

[Geno]

Yeah...and if you think $700.00 is bad, wait until you put in $1,999.00 and get a POS! :banghead:

[glockman19]

My experience with Kimbers has been nothing gut good. :) I purchased a Raptor II in December and have had NO issues what so ever. :D Great right out of the box accurate and excellent trigger. :D So I liked it so much I got a Custom II. ;) The only issues were the sights were slightly off. :rolleyes: A trip to the local gunsmith and $10 It was dead on. :) I just bought an Ultra Raptor to go along with my Raptor and can't wait to shoot it. :D:D I'll let you know of any issues after I get it. I can't DROS another handgun until June 10th and won't get to shoot it until the 20th.:banghead: Crazy CA laws? :cuss: but I can get as many AR's as I can afford.:confused:

[Katana8869]

No more slidestop malfunctions after replacing the OEM one with the one with my Springfield. Just for kicks I also ran the gun with the Springfield's extractor and I had no more feed problems with my magazines.

The reason I tried this is I thought that the Kimber's extractor seemed much too tight and I felt that the extractor might be occasionally pushing the rounds down into the magazine instead of slipping over the cartridge rim. When I checked the extractor tension on the Springfield it was much lighter.

When I took the gun to the range, it ran perfectly. Both of the Kimber parts went in the spare parts box and I have now installed a Wilson Bulletproof slide stop and a Bulletproof extractor in the gun. When I ordered the parts from wilson I also ordered one of their 22# recoil springs that they offer for 4" 1911's just to try out.

The Wilson spring is 2x as long as the OEM spring (as is the Wolff XP spring).
I totally believe that Kimber is using the wrong spring for this gun. Their spring is only half as long as either the Wolff or the Wilson spring and is weak to the point of being ridiculous in comparison.

I have been back to the range twice, once with the Wolff spring and Springfield parts and once with the Wilson spring and the Wilson parts. I have fired a combined total of 600 rounds of combined FMJ, JHP and LSWC reloads using both the Kimber Magazine and the McCormick magazines and have not had 1 single issue.

The gun runs fine now, I just find it irritating that a kitchen table gunsmith has to fix what the so called "custom shop" couldn't figure out for themselves. I have no doubt that if I had sent the gun back again, it would have been just more of the same results (or lack of).

While my gun now seems to run fine, (due mainly to my work and money) Kimber will see no more business from me. This has been nothing but a frustrating experience and I really have not enjoyed being Kimber's field QC tester and repair department.

[.45&TKD]

Sid,

You have been having a feeding issue? Not an extraction/ejection issue?

The most common problem with failures to extract/eject is due to an improperly tuned extractor. I've never bought a 1911 that was properly tuned out of the box. Wilson Combat has instructions on extractor tuning that are easy to do. The extractor on my Springfield Loaded was a limp noodle. The gun ran fine with a new Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor.

I've never had a feeding issue.

[RonSC]

Although I'm not a Kimber owner it would seem that sending a link to this thread to the powers that be at Kimber just may help. Just a thought FWIW.

Ron

[CountGlockula]

Thanks for sharing your Kimber experience Katana8869.

I guess the one thing to look out for when purchasing a Kimber is aftermarket non-Kimber parts.

I was looking into a Kimber, but I'll be much more cautious now.

[Geno]

What do you all think of doing a Kimber poll and then contacting Kimber, or dropping the Kimber bellyaching? That would depend on the poll's result of course. Here is what I think (JMHO):

RonSC stated that, "...sending a link to this thread to the powers that be at Kimber just may help." You know, that just may be a good idea. However, given how insolent Dennis was in his dealings with me, I sincerely doubt it will change anything. Go back to the pics that I posted in #27. How could Dennis look at that pistol and assert that is is fine?! The barrel alone should have compelled his attention. But, here is the difference...pride.

I take pride in what I do. What I do reprisents me, and my abilities. Dennis, it seems does not care, and his lack of pride "shines" in that "Un"Professional Raptor. :) The Sr. Ex. V.P. for Customer Relations knew of the incident, yet the problems persisted, and persist even today. I think it would be interesting to do a poll thread, regarding the percentage of Kimbers coming out with problems...not a gripe thread, a legitimate assess Kimber's status of repairs. It's easy to just bellyache, but that resolves nothing.

Does anyone think it would be beneficial to do a poll to determine the frequency and types of repairs to Kimbers? Then, "armed" with the data of that poll it would be time either 1) to approach the management to ask, what gives?! Or, 2) we would see that the overwhelming majority of Kimbers are staisfactory and drop the issue. Thoughts Re: a Kimber poll?

I am thinking it should adress if the pistols are Series I or Series II, internal extractor or external extractor, and perhaps the size (3", 4" or 5"). Was it reliable? What type problems? It should assess Custom Shop service...quality.

But, the poll should be purely fact...no gripes. Just the facts. Thoughts?


Doc2005

[Hawk]

I can't picture Kimber taking anything on the intr4w3b seriously.

Neither would we get much insight into the percentage of Kimbers being shipped with issues. Even gunshop owners can't tell whether someone buying a handgun has high or low expectations, or even if the thing will be used much.

I could picture some constructive ideas coming out of such an exercise, though. I've picked up a few opinions but it would be nice to have a larger sample size - e.g.

"If issues manifest after 500 rounds, type II part wear or damage is probable"

"If your commander length Kimber has 'short spring syndrome', replace with Wolff"

"Don't dremel the feed ramp of an alloy frame in an attempt to fix 3-point jams." (no, I didn't).

"What are the legal ramifications of changing the type II system to Baer's 'drop safety' (extra power firing pin spring and titanium pin)"

"What cleaning issues arise out of dumping the type II parts, does one need a spacer where the frame plunger went?"

...that sort of thing. Then it turns into a "support group" more than a "Kimber bash".

One can ask, but hardly expect, that those reporting issues will report only on their own issues or issues personally observed and so noted. It'd also be nice if those reporting positive experiences would "come clean" with all malfs - in other words no "500 rounds with perfect reliability except for the 4 times I limp-wristed it" - that's 4 malfs in 500 rounds, no point in sugar-coating it.

[ruger 100]

I had a kimber pro carry II. It was a pile of crap. The shop were I got it from looked at it and. Said it was fine so 2 days latter I sold it back to them and got an xd 40 and have had no problems. I will never buy a kimber again

[BAT1]

Series one ONLY. You won't find many for sale, because they are keepers. Had a ultra carry, and it was accurate. When they started making their own parts they started having problems. I have a friend who got a Pro Carry II and has nothing but trouble with it. I got a SA SS Champ and not one burp. Mine has tritium night sites, his doesn't. He is so jealous. He paid 985.00, I paid 700.00.

[hemiram]

My friend has at least 2 Kimber 1911's, both of them loaded up with all the goodies. They sure look nice, but they don't seem to be very good at actually shooting. He had an older one that shot great, but he sold it 2 years ago to buy a newer model Kimber, and really regrets doing it.

I don't remember what the models are, but one of them is full sized, and the other is a Commander type. Both of them have had ongoing FTF problems since they were new, and all his other high buck 1911's have had similar issues, but he bought an old LLama 1911 that will shoot anything. It's only got about 50% of the finish left, and it's got a lot of nicks in it, but it outshoots the other 1911's he's got. His heavily worked on Baer 1911 is almost 100% reliable now, after a couple of trips back and a couple of trips to a local gunsmith. $2000+ into a gun that get's outshot by my $360 Witness, his nasty old LLama, and his new $550 CZ 97B. :rolleyes:

These problems are rapidly making him into a nonfanboi of high dollar 1911's..:D

Especially when my witness passed the 1200 round point last week with a total of one FTF, the case wasn't even close to being right, and it got jammed when the slide tried to chamber it. I put three mags through it right after that with no problems. It was cheap S&B so one out of 150 rounds isn't bad, but the gun sure was loaded with "stuff" after it shot it. My friend's two Kimbers both had multiple jams with better ammo. He's got one of the Kimbers sold to his brother in law, who probably won't ever shoot it, and he's ordered one of the Dan Wesson 1911's. We'll see!

[Hawk]

I'm not sure my sub-1,900.00 Dawson/STI qualifies as a "high end" 1911 but I can't coax a malf out of that beast and it's not for lack of trying. It just flat refuses to mess up.

I have Kimber to thank for driving me to it. So it's not like they've never done anything good for me. I do miss the Kimber's aesthetics, though.

[bigmedicine]

The thing about Kimber to remember, is that they are selling so many guns that I personally don't think they care about the problems anymore. I mean, geez, if they would just cut out ONE of their full page adds from any Peterson publication, they would still have 1-2 left and then they could hire some more Quality folks for inspection prior to shipment. Until they feel that their quality issues are causing decreased sales, they won't take the time to address this real and growing problem.
I love my Kimber now - but have nothing good at all to say about the intial product I received and even less good things to say about the 2 failed trips back to their shop to "fix" the problem. I lost patience, sent it to Wilson Combat and finally have a gun that will work. That is sad, but it is what I was forced to do.
The really bad thing, to me, is that Kimber could be making a product that was so good that people wouldn't need to go and buy the high $$ products. However, they just are happy with their profits and won't bat an eye until their is reason to change.

[Daemon688]

Boy am I glad I stumbled across this. I actually sent the link to one of my friends who is considering getting a Kimber Pro Carry II for his CCW. He's never fired one before so he didn't really want to believe my review of the Pro Carry II.

Here's my experience with the Pro Carry II:

I had rented this pistol at a local gun range and brought 100 rnds of WWB. I won't lie, but I love the trigger. It allowed me to make very small ragged holes in the target. BUT I would never trust my life to one of these guns. In nearly every magazine we had at least one FTF or FTE. I had one instance where I couldn't get the trigger to function for some reason. It was in battery, thumb safety was down, and the grip safety was depressed. I had to drop the magazine and clear the pistol before I could get it to function again. The Kimber also had a nasty habit of ejecting shells right into the middle of our foreheads.

For a high priced gun, I would want it to work 100% out of the box. Boy oh boy did the kimber fail this test. I've never had problems like this in any other gun. It decidedly left a sour taste in my mouth for 1911s. Although I would still like to own one someday.

[.45&TKD]

Daemon688,

I would not let your gun rental experience ruin your opinion of 1911's or Kimber for that matter. There's alot of simple maintenance reasons that could cause a rental gun to run poorly; cleaning and extractor adjustment to name two.

I've had a Kimber TLE with an internal extractor for few years that has been flawless. I plan on buying another and will let you guys know if it is any different.

I think a lot of Kimber problems have to do with short barrel 1911's and external extractors. These are 2 areas where the buyer should beware.

[.45&TKD]

Well, I went and bought another Kimber, a Stainless TLE with internal extractor, to go with my black TLE mentioned.

It will be a few days before I can disassemble, lubricate, and get to the range. I'll let you know how it goes.

[cbecnel]

Maybe I am lucky, I have owned three Kimbers (Custom II, Ultra Carry II, and a Target Match) all with no problems (I sold them all, expect the Target Match). Makes me sick to the stomach, to think "What if I have a problem with it, will Kimber take care of it?"

[Geno]

The sad fact is, we never know when we are going to get a lemon...from any company. And so, we can only make our purchases with the faith that if it (any brand pistol) breaks, that it will be corrected properly, promptly and without expense. I have come to believe that it makes no difference what brand you buy; it only matters that the customer relations director (CRD) is ethical. For fact, any pistol will eventually break. It only varies as to how soon. Only then, will you learn of the CRD’s ethics.

[First Shirt]

My circle of shooting buddies lists seven Kimbers spread among five shooters. Did a quick poll of them this morning (at the range) and no one can remember their last malfunction. One, (a Custom Shop Eclipse) was returned to have the night sights replaced, and from call to returned part was less than seven working days. Maybe we just got lucky?

Joel

[Hawk]

I wouldn't think it'd be hard to put together 7 Kimbers in a row without a problem. My personal guess is that if their defect rate was as high as 10% they'd be out of business by next tuesday.

They've bettered their odds by dropping the type II parts (one of the failures on one of my Kimbers) from the Warrior. Doc's gouged frame was clearly a type II issue and my FTRTB was obviously a type II hitch. In at least 2 cases, Kimber solves type II issues by simply plugging their ears and singing "Tangerine" at the top of their lungs.

[Snapping Twig]

I have a Custom CDP II with @ 800 rounds through it. The only problem I have encountered was FTRB and the more I read about it, the more I lean to Wolff for a new spring.

After round # 350, it fed flawlessly, whatever I put through it from FMJ to HP from 230g to 165g, mixed mag or not. That being said, occasionally it doesn't want to completely seat the first round every so often and this can be fixed by a new spring.

Accurate...faggettaboutit! One ragged hole at 10 yards. Done deal! I'll get a spring and be delighted with this pistol.

[Geno]

Hawk:

I've never heard that before...that is hilarious! That aside, I believe that you are precisely correct. There is no way that their defect rate can be 10%...the US would be up-in-arms! No pun intended.

My Warrior is a great pistol, as was my Series I Kimber. In fact, I will go as far as to say that none of my first Kimbers (#1 through #9) ever had a problem! It was Kimber pistols (#10 through 14) that were defective, and I believe that all 5 of those 5 had external extractors. Then, Kimber #15 (my Warrior) has also been excellent. Note, the defective pistols were purchased in a single summer...but, so was the Warrior. So, my defective Kimber rate was precisely 33% (5 of 15), but I do believe that my experience has been the exception.

Snapping Twig:

I'm glad that your Kimber is excellent, as most are. I would request that you return to view those pictures which I posted. Please score the barrel's bore for quality, on a 0 to 10 scale, 10 being highest. Do the same regarding the receiver and components, and the slide and its components. Give me a total score of the "Pro" Raptor total potential of 0 to 30. Then, sum your assessment with if YOU would purchase that very "Pro" Raptor that I have posted. It is one fact to boast of our excellent pistols...we all have them. That resolves nothing. This thread focuses on problematic Kimbers. Please now turn your attention to the problematic "Pro" Raptor, assess it, and tell me, would YOU buy it?!

Doc2005

[glockman19]

Doc,

Hey Now. I would love to have a Pro Raptor to add to my Raptor & Ultra all I'm missing is the 4". If I can get one in CA I would it never made the DOJ approved list. Are you telling me I shouldn't waste my time looking for or waiting for it?

I've been sorry to read all along of your issues with both the gun and Dennis but of the three I have I've had little of no issues, however, If I went through what you did I'd surely have poor feelings towards them too.

Since your troubles they have gotten their act together because the three I bought over the last 6 months have been great.

So on that note...Thanks you for helping to change the ways of kimber. I'm sure your posts letters & phone calls along with others has helped the company turn around.

G19

[gunfighter48]

Purchased a Kimber Pro Carry II about 3 years ago. 1450 rds fired with out ANY problems except for magazines. Switched to Wilson 47Ds and cured the mag problems. I replaced the MIM firing group parts with Ed Brown and Wilson parts. There was nothing wrong with the MIM parts, just personal preference. It has a very nice 4 lb trigger pull with a glass rod break. This is my only carry piece and it's 100% reliable.

So as far as I'm concerned Kimber makes great guns! Are they perfect 100% of the time, of course not. But neither are any other brands perfect and that includes the custom makers guns also. Kimber puts out something in the neighbor hood of 50,000 guns a year and you are going to have some lemons. You'll always hear about the bad ones, over and over and over and over, but you'll rarely hear about the good ones. Take some time and read the groups of other makers guns and on different gun boards. You'll see that they all have their share of lemons!!!:)

PS When you read the other makers groups pay attention to some of their customer service horror stories, some of them make Dennis and his group look like angels!!!!!!!

[Hawk]

GF - noted that the MIM parts were swapped out only due to personal preference and that numerous owners swap out mags.

But with Wilson mags and a Brown/Wilson FCG, a lot of people wouldn't really consider it a Kimber anymore. It might have been a Kimber once but now it's a custom. I'm not at all clear on how much of that rubs off on Kimber. My Ultra didn't start messing up until after 500 rounds - if I had turned it into a Wilson / Brown / Kimber I'm not sure those issues would have come up. Probably, but who knows?

Similarly, ST notes that his is perfect except for FTRTBs that will no doubt be cured by a Wolff spring. One still wonders why Kimber shipped a product with a defective or incorrect recoil spring.

Defective magazines and defective springs and both are great guns. Perhaps our expectations of a 1K firearm are simply different.

It would be nice to think they've cleaned up in the last year. I traded my problem-child Ultra CDP for a 686 so my dog has left the fight.

[Condition Plaid]

My CDP II Compact has been virtually flawless through over 3,000 rounds. I carry it almost every day.

[Geno]

Hawk:

That is basically where I am at present...do I keep my Warrior or trade it even-up for a new Colt? I have that very offer standing from a local gun shop. To be certain, the Colt is worth less (at least on paper) than the Warrior, so is, yet one more financial loss. What I ponder, or try to project, what will be the value of each pistol respective in the future as a collectible piece? There, I suspect that the Colt will hold its value better, but, people are pretty hot on Warriors. Then, going back to the point that all pistols eventually need repair, what will be the treatment from each company at that point?

Recent Posts:

The most recent posts are illustrative of "skirting the issue". Furthermore, they presuppose the existence of continuing issues by ignoring the contradictory evidence posted by numerous, unsatisfied customers. It is tantamount rather to the ostrich and the sand, or kindergarten egocentrism, "My Kimber is good, so all Kimbers are good. I am happy, so you should be happy." All is not well at either at Kimber, nor at Dennislandia. I submit that by virtue of the fact that people continue to post factual evidence of defective product and dissatisfactory service, that Kimber has not improved, nor has Dennis stepped up to the plate.

In closing, not one of the recent posts has stepped up to the plate to assess the "Pro" Raptor as requested, nor have they asserted if THEY would purchase it, and if they would be content that Dennis returned it to the owner, untouched, and as photographed after the non-repair.

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

A guy I worked with bought a Kimber Stainless Ten II and I was one of the worst made guns I have seen. It also didn't work. He took it back to the gunstore and they said it was factory defective and gave him his money back. Something about the feedramp having a gap or something. I forget what he said but it was a POS for sure.

He used to have an old Kimber that he loved but said the plastic Kimber were a joke and wouldn't buy one. I don't know about the newer steel guns. I have heard they are made in S. America out of castings.

[JonP]

I had a Kimber Eclipse Ultra II and it was nothing but problems. I never had to deal with Dennis directly, as I went through my gun shop, but it went back to Kimber twice. That's in addition to being worked on in the shop. I recently traded it. I'm glad Kimber has satisfied customers, but I was at the point where I didn't trust the pistol, and for a carry piece, that's not acceptable.

I won't trash Kimber, but I probably won't be buying one in the future, either.

[Hawk]

Doc
The Warrior would be a tough decision. I'm in no rush to take a bath on my Eclipse. I'll trade it or sell it if the opportunity arises but it's one of the "good ones" so there's no urgency. Apart from a shattered safety, my issues were type II derived - the Warrior is immune from those concerns.

[Geno]

kgriggs8:

I have heard numerous people comment on the no-longer forged receiver and slide. I have always thought that Kimber was forged, heat-treated, then machined. I hope that they have held true to that standard. The last I verified this (data from 2 years back), they were still forged. I recently posted that finding (the past 3 or 4 months).


Hawk:

Amen to that! In fact, look in the bedside thread...what pistol is at my side at night?! Warrior! A Warrior and an 870 Tactical 12 gauge keep me sleeping comfortable.

JonP:

Great comments! I agree. I do not want to come across as "trashing" Kimber. I hope people do note my many positive comments. To me, it is the "principle" of the matter. Yes, my Warrior is excellent. However, my "brothers" are not being treated properly, and as such, I too have to stand behind them, and perpetuate the insistence that Kimber improve, and Dennis step up to the plate. I would hate to see Kimber fold. It would be a horrid loss to America!

[Hawk]

I had a Kimber Eclipse Ultra II and it was nothing but problems. I never had to deal with Dennis directly, as I went through my gun shop, but it went back to Kimber twice.

JonP touches on an excellent point: a good dealer can take a lot of the pain out of a less than ideal new pistol. They can ship for less money and may well have more strokes than we do.

I no longer patronize any dealers whose attitude with a new gun they sold me can be summed up with "Good luck with that, guy".

[Kimber1911_06238]

my custom classic is very reliable. It's a shame you have had such a horrible expereince. I love kimber's, but have seen several posts on here where people have had a bad experience. hope they sort everything out for you.

[glockman19]

Doc,

I'd buy a PRO Raptor II in a heartbeat and am looking for one in CA at this very moment. There is no doubt or argument you were treated poorly and recieved badly made guns durring a specific period years ago. However your criticism along with others has turned things around at kimber and lately they have been more accomodating with Customer Service and have increased their Quality Control substantially. Dennis is another story entirely. He is curt and unfriendly, perhaps management said something to him. He doesn't have that bad a rap on http://www.m1911.org/

[.45&TKD]

I have heard numerous people comment on the no-longer forged receiver and slide.

That would be a serious drop in quality. Is this true?

[Geno]

Post to Redirect Thrust

I sense that people are not fully reading the thread prior to posting. The recent direction of posts is frequently off-topic. The thread's topic and thrust is toward a persistent, diminished quality at Kimber, both in product and in service.

Furthermore, the focus is not on my current Kimbers. My current Kimber is flawless. The focus is on the multiple other posts, by people who persist in experiencing sub-par quality, and as was aforementioned, this in both product and in service.

To the end of redirecting, what is the cause of defective products reaching the market, why does the sub-par service persist, and how do we encourage improvement?

[Hawk]

I haven't heard anything about a change in slide or frame and Kimber is still showing this:
Kimber pistols are 100% manufactured in the U.S.A. in our Yonkers, New York facility.

and..

Every part on the Kimber pistol is manufactured in our New York plant. From polymer frames to adjustable sights, it is all made in house.

SA uses some Imbel Brazil parts.

In an interesting twist on value 1911s, STI is putting their parts into slides / frames / barrels by Armscor Philippines in the Spartan.
Perhaps STI fact has gotten pasted on Kimber as rumor? Stranger things have happened.

Edited to add: Sorry, Doc. I was typing when you were posting.

[glockman19]

why does the sub-par service persist, and how do we encourage improvement?
By doing exactly what we are now. discussing it and giving constructive criricism. They don't want to lose our business any mor than we want to get sub-par firearms from them.

I know that Management reads boarda like this and I believe that we are making a difference. Thansk Doc, for spearheading the revolution.

[Michigunner]

My Kimber Custom II Stainless Target .45 has been absolutely perfect, even during the break-in period.

I am highly satisfied with the reliability.

[sturmgewehr]

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/228013510.jpg

[sturmgewehr]

I have Kimber to thank for driving me to it. So it's not like they've never done anything good for me. I do miss the Kimber's aesthetics, though.
If you want STI reliability in a package that is classic in design - look no further than Ed Brown.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/Ed%20Brown/k_kc_4.jpg

[sturmgewehr]

Another problem, as I see it, is that Kimber uses a much higher carbon content in their stainless steel guns to make the metal softer which in turn leads to increased tool life (machining). This is a cost cutting measure which causes problems like these:

This is a brand new (in the store) Ultra Carry Kimber.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/ultra_carry.jpg

This is a brand new (in the store) Kimer TLE. The barrel is rusted inside and out, and the crown looks like someone used it to drive nails.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/tle_3.jpg

This is another TLE with rust on the barrel. All of these came new from Kimber covered in rust by the way.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/tle_2.jpg

This is a shot of the slide to frame fit of a TLE. The fit is by no means tight or even what I would consider good. I've seen better fit on $400 Taurus 1911's.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/tle_1.jpg

When I pay over $1k for a 1911, this is what I expect with regards to fit and finish. This is a Springfield TRP (same class as the TLE and price point $1,100 to $1,300).
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Forums/guns/4.jpg