Took my CCW Class today and mixed feelings.


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kd7nqb
May 6, 2007, 12:52 AM
So, as Oregon law requires I took my Basic Handgun Safety class today before applying for my CHL. I did not expect to learn anything AMAZING or surprising but didn't object to the idea of the class.

Here are some observations.

1. The instructor who was a former LEO and currently runs my range I belong to, was very hesitant to give us clear "Green light" scenarios where we would be justified he seemed to be hesitant. I assume this is just as much for his liability as ours.
2. I was disappointed in the fact that there was no gun handling or live fire training for the class, a little concerning that we don't require something at least basic.
3. I refuse to complain about ANY day I get to spend 3hrs at the range. Even though I didn't fire a single round today.


Here are questions I know have for the group.

1. In the class the subject of Personal liability insurance was brought up saying make sure your PLU coverage does not specifically exempt self-defense situations. Does obtaining insurance against civil liability hurt you in court? I could picture somebody getting convicted because having that insurance would go towards intent in an odd way.

2. The instructor made a comment that he believes that you should inform an LEO of your CCW holder status at all traffic stops including when your NOT carrying. His argument was that this way they know your not hiding anything.

3. The instructor said it was a really bad idea to use your CCW as photo ID ANYWHERE. Does anybody else share this feeling?

4. The point was made that smaller firearms are harder to handle so there for your first carry gun should be a larger framed one until you gain the skills and ability to carry something smaller and thus harder to handle. I guess my counter argument would be that, larger guns are less convenient thus less likely to actually GET carried.


All in all I enjoyed it, reviewing safety is never a waste of time and I got to spend 3hrs at the range with several friends.

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tmajors
May 6, 2007, 01:03 AM
1. Completely got me there. I know my home owners insurance doesn't cover nuclear detonation but it doesn't mention anything about guns.

2. In Idaho the police will know you have a CCW before they even come up to the window. It's courtesy to tell them if you are armed or not.

3. The only time I use my CCW photo ID is at the gun store. Other then that think of your permit as your gun. CONCEALED.

4. The smaller is harder to control comes from mouse guns. Those dinky things that you hold with your index, middle and thumb and nothing else fits. Anything that you can get your ring finger on is fine. Glock, Springfield, CZ, Sig, HK, all make "compact" guns that are large enough to get your whole hand around and still be small enough to conceal easily.

WeedWhacker
May 6, 2007, 01:18 AM
1. If you already have that type of insurance, why bother to switch? If not, the chances of you having to defend yourself with lethal force are stastistically slim. Insurance, in my opinion, is mostly a scam, with a few exceptions (renter's insurance, where your flammable building is shared by 4-20 other transient misfits, etc.).

2. Personal preference except perhaps where there is an applicable law. I do not voluntarily give information to law enforcement, etc., unless a law compels me. Why cause a potential needless panic? I'm not a threat to LEOs.

3. CCW cards should never be shown to anyone, with few exceptions (e.g. bypassing stupid NICS and associated fees at a firearms shop).

4. Depending on your financial situation, I also feel it is best to learn handling skills with a full-size pistol. Once someone is capable with a larger pistol, then they shouldn't have much trouble with the smaller ones. However, if finances don't permit owning multiple firearms, buy the most reliable firearm of the type, class, and size desired and practice often with it.

BFIII12
May 6, 2007, 01:23 AM
I think his point about always showing your CCL to a LEO is just so that the Officer knows your not a dirtbag. He will know that you have a clear background. I have been told to do the same by at least 5 LEO friends of mine.

Ready2Defend
May 6, 2007, 01:26 AM
1. Hadn't thought about the insurance issue.

2. In Oklahoma we are required to declair only declair if carrying. I almost always am so moot point - I will declair because I am carrying.

3. Agree with tmajors: I never use CCW for ID. In OKlahoma it's not equavalent to a NICS check so I don't even show it when buying a gun now.

4. I have pocket carried a glock 27 for 5-7 years now. I practice enough with it often enough that I don't miss the pinky being part of the grip. I don't use the extended floor plate mags because it would compromise pocket concealment. My full size guns rairly get carried.

camslam
May 6, 2007, 01:41 AM
1. Insurance: Oregon is a fairly liberal place and I would imagine you could end up having a few issues with juries up there. Who knows. A good attorney can spin things any way they need to.

2. In Utah you must show LEO your permit if pulled over. They will know immediately after running your driver license number anyway. This way you identify to them if you are a threat or not. Both times I have shown my permit to LEO it has been no big deal. On 1 stop we ended up talking about guns for about 10 minutes and he let me go wth a warning. I was happy with that. I also think it shows some respect to let them know and they will appreciate it.

3. I never use it for ID purposes unless I'm purchasing a gun. Here they can call BCI (Bureau of Criminal Investigations) and if the permit is valid, it clears you from the background check.

4. Get a gun that you will practice with, be comfortable using, and will do the job. Every person has a different gun, different way of carrying the gun, and different reasons for carrying in the first place. Find what works for you and then practice as often as you can.

Congrats on taking the class and being a responsible citizen. We need as many out there as we can get.

ezypikns
May 6, 2007, 01:46 AM
1. I don't believe the subject of liability insurance was even discussed, but the inclusion of that subject in your training seems like a good idea.

2. In Texas it's the law that you must hand over your CHL along with your driver's license during a traffic stop.

3. He's right. You should never hand over your CCW license as a form of I.D. (with the possible exception of purchasing a firearm). I've done it twice mistakenly. Once was in a National Park. The young man I gave it to thought it was "the coolest thing he'd ever seen", and handed it back with a wink. The other time I handed it over as I.D. at my bank. The teller never even paused, just took care of my transaction and told me to have a nice day. Now I carry them in a sleeve in my wallet with the CHL well concealed (like my carry piece) so I don't mix them up any more.

4. He's generally right about smaller weapons, but I believe the main reason to avoid a smaller weapon starting out is the increased skill required to shoot one accurately. I think most people will agree that a snub nose revolver is more difficult to shoot accurately than a revolver with a 4" or 6" barrel. A shorter sight radius doesn't lend itself to easy accuracy. Of course, there are peole who can shoot a snubbie really well, but I'll bet they've practiced to acheive their skill. As someone pointed out, there are compact semi autos that are concealable, easy to shoot, and plenty accurate. It really depends on what you're comfortable carrying.

tmajors
May 6, 2007, 02:37 AM
I've done it twice mistakenly.

I have mistakenly at a bar I used to go to. I was a regular so the bouncer knew me but still insisted on carding and searching me. One night I accidentally handed him my CCW. He never carded or searched me after that.

YMMV and don't try this at home and all that jazz.

Albatross
May 6, 2007, 02:50 AM
You don't have to inform officers in Oregon of you carrying status. At least it isn't the law.

If you want to take a CCW class that will really teach you what you need to know, drive south to Oregon Firearms Academy and take their Defensive Handgun 1 course.

They teach you what you need to know about actually using the gun. You shoot around 400 rounds during the course of the day with excellent instruction and high teacher/student ratio.

They also make clear the laws without a bunch of opinionated LEO snootiness (however, the main instructor and owner are senior LEO in the area) It costs around 140 bucks and if you intend to carry in Oregon it is a wise investment as they will come to trial to defend you.

If you take their "Basic Handgun" class, the former state D.A explains the legal use of lethal force and provides do and don't shoot scenarios. As I recall they also do this in defensive handgun 1.

Give them a call/check out their webpage. They are top notch.

glockman19
May 6, 2007, 02:52 AM
1. ?

2. I live in CA don't have a CCW in my own state so not an issue I guess I would anywhere else I might be carrying.

3. YES...bad idea to use your CCW as photo ID ANYWHERE.

4. I am proficient with all of my carry guns. Also had a live fire test for either UT or FL CCW

jeepmor
May 6, 2007, 03:29 AM
I'm from Oregon also and got an ex-LEO instructor for my CCW course.

1. Means, Opportunity, Intent - it they have all three, it's green. We went over several shoot/no-shoot scenarios as well as where some folks got themselves in trouble by making bad choices.

2. In Oregon, it is not the law to disclose CCW permit, but it is a courtesy and the officers appreciate it. It usually gets you the "good guy" stance immediately instead of the "suspicious character" response. YMMV.

3. I wanted some range time and more instruction also, however, Oregon not requiring this added "required" expense is fine by me. I think it encourages more folks to go ahead and get the permit. It leaves the training up to you, which is still an expense, but not a mandatory one to get the permit. (addendum - I also think it is why Oregon's permit does not recieve the same reciprocity as others)

4. yes, small guns jump more, simple physics. Probably considerably important point to women. and hey, if she can't shoot the guy, she can always club him with an extra 30 oz or more of steel and lead in her purse.

buttrap
May 6, 2007, 03:56 AM
Jeep I think the deal on 3 is Oregon does not honor any out of state CCW permits is all that does in the other states honoring a Ore permit..though about 15 states do.

Baba Louie
May 6, 2007, 08:27 AM
Insurance is probably nice to have but knowing most insurance carriers, my guess is they'll try to distance themselves from any claims against their policy and pocketbook. They're in existance to make money, not spend it, believe it or not. :rolleyes:

While it might not be a legal requirement to alert an LEO about your CCW status, it might be wise in some instances to let them know should you find yourself in a situation where they are a little (ahem) nervous about something or other... but then again, I try to not stand out from the crowd, break any laws or otherwise act in any way that'd bring me into their radar, as it were. I am concealing my being armed from most of the world, I have nothing to "hide" from the police, I just also do not feel the need to "share" everything in a "one-size-fits-all" sorta answer tho'. Ya know? Concealed means concealed (unless otherwise noted).

CCW license to be used only when necessary, as others have stated, when by-passing NICS at your local friendly gunshop.

Smaller v. larger handguns for carry. Really depends on the persons size and abilities to my way of thinking. Generally I agree with the concept that the smaller the gun, the more experience it takes to use it well. Or, should I say, to AVOID the need to use it at all.

Regarding training... can you ever have too much? While one could worry about an opposing attorney painting you out to be a bloodthirsty vigilante wanna-be who wants to kill, your own attorney will repaint that picture to show you an experienced, well taught (with documentation to back it up) citizen who cares enough to master the tool utilized to save your life.

kd7nqb, Portland OR Police offer a Citizen's Academy.

http://www.portlandonline.com/police/index.cfm?c=32121

I took the class that LVMPD (Las Vegas) offers years and years ago. Besides being fun, the class offered me yet another chance to learn a bit more about a subject worthy of study. They also let us run through their FATS course (Shoot or No shoot scenarios) and spend some time on their range. Our Academy Alumni group does things in conjunction with Metro to help out, not to mention some type of annual shooting competition against some of Metro's finest. Don't believe it when people say Cops can't shoot well. Some Cops can shoot really REALLY well. Really. But so can SOME Citizens. :D

I mention the Academy because it's just another bit of training, another life experience, more friends and allies one can add to one's list... and did I say it was Fun? I'd recommend it to anyone who carries and even to those who simply care. Another form of Insurance, perhaps. Just in case.

BigRobT
May 6, 2007, 08:33 AM
I spoke with my insurance agent and our umbrella policy would cover a "good shoot". They key thing would be that there would be no criminal charges brought. If it were deemed "criminal", then the insurance wouldn't cover anything.

Stickjockey
May 6, 2007, 09:36 AM
1. Does obtaining insurance against civil liability hurt you in court? I could picture somebody getting convicted because having that insurance would go towards intent in an odd way.

Never a bad idea to have insurance, but saying that it indicates intent is like saying that having car insurance indicates that one is looking to wreck their car.

2. The instructor made a comment that he believes that you should inform an LEO of your CCW holder status at all traffic stops including when your NOT carrying. His argument was that this way they know your not hiding anything.

In Oregon, they'll know when they run your license anyway. I think of it as a professional courtesy; the fewer surprises all round, the better.

3. The instructor said it was a really bad idea to use your CCW as photo ID ANYWHERE. Does anybody else share this feeling?

You betcha. Sheepdogs quite frequently look like wolves to the unenlightened.

4. The point was made that smaller firearms are harder to handle so there for your first carry gun should be a larger framed one until you gain the skills and ability to carry something smaller and thus harder to handle. I guess my counter argument would be that, larger guns are less convenient thus less likely to actually GET carried.

Both arguments are good. Find a balance that works, and don't forget a good holster/belt combo.

FCFC
May 6, 2007, 09:50 AM
During a traffic stop, I would not ordinarily inform the officer that I'm carrying legally unless he asks. If he wants to know, he'll ask.

4. I have pocket carried a glock 27 for 5-7 years now.
That's a fine carry weapon. What kind of holster do you use?

beaucoup ammo
May 6, 2007, 09:53 AM
Regarding #3..As a rule I never use my CHL as ID, with the exception of a gun purchase for obvious reasons.

I did use it at a retail store last year. In Texas (and other states no doubt) you can renew your drivers license by mail or over the net. The photo on my Tex DL is 12 years old! I'm grayer, have a moustache and wear glasses now..I didn't 12 years ago. The CHL reflect a more representative view of myself and the clerk, after eyeballing me, asked if I had another form of photo ID. Hence the showing of the CHL.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 6, 2007, 10:10 AM
1. In the class the subject of Personal liability insurance was brought up saying make sure your PLU coverage does not specifically exempt self-defense situations. Does obtaining insurance against civil liability hurt you in court? I could picture somebody getting convicted because having that insurance would go towards intent in an odd way.

I have read hundreds of "self-defense" (I use quotes because few of them were true self-defense cases) cases and I have never seen the issue of insurance being used that way. Under the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 411), you cannot even introduce the fact that someone had liability insurance into evidence in order to prove that they acted negligently or wrongfully. Most states have similar rules as well.

About the only problem I can see with liability insurance is that you don't want to be overinsured when it comes to liability (i.e. a $2 million liability policy when you only own $50k worth of property and cash). In some cases, it would not be worth a lawyer's time to pursue a civil suit against a self-defense shooter because the potential payoff is too small. However if you put some deep pockets behind that by making a large insurance settlement a possibility, the situation changes. If you have the kind of assets and property that are attractive to lawyers anyway, then by all means protect yourself with some liability insurance; but you don't want to create a financial incentive if there wasn't one already there.

mec
May 6, 2007, 10:45 AM
The instructor declined to give a "green light" on shooting situations. This is fairly imbedded in the Texas cirriculum. The reason is that the totality of the circumstances determine whether the shoot is justified. One example the dps trainers used was the "21 foot rule" ( a guy with a knife can cover 21 feet and stab you before you can get your gun into action). Shooting a knife guy 22 feet away might be jutified on flat ground and might not if there are barriers in between to slow him down. Another one was " My instructor said to always shoot twice then observe effect." This one doesn't work out two well if the second shot happens when the guy is on the ground doing the chicken.

Sig245
May 6, 2007, 04:20 PM
Sure is a lot of Oregon folks on this forum!

I think the basic concealed carry class assumes that you are quite familiar with firearms. The class presses the point that to pull that gun you are putting your future and your personal assets at risk so you better make sure its for the right reasons.

You want to be able to tell the Grand Jury, "I knew I was going to die", thats your best defense. Your life, under Oregon law, has to be at risk.

Shoot someone in the back in your home while they are stealing your TV, on the way out the door will get you put in prison for a long time. Shoot someone in your yard while walking towards your home, you better be able to produce a weopon that they were using as a threat against your life.

Carrying a gun is a big responsibility. I show my permit to nobody except close friends and relatives. I believe I would disclose my status to an officer if stopped, with my hands on the wheel, in plain sight.

To master a small carry pistol/revolver does take much practice to hit anything. They are for short range defensive use only. If you are going to a gunfight carry a 45 acp.

Lee
Portland, OR

Molon Labe
May 6, 2007, 05:42 PM
At least your class was safe. My class was 12 hours of unmitigated horror (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=158014). :cuss:

Cesiumsponge
May 6, 2007, 05:58 PM
It's a bad idea in WA to use your CCW as a photo ID because...it doesn't have your photo on it :D

I do recall once I was at a bank and needed to talk with one of the desk people in transferring a joint CD. I didn't happen to carry an SS or birth cert card for a 2nd form of ID on me (forgot to bring 2 forms of ID, and not something you regularly carry anyhow) so I used my license and CCW. No eyebrows or alarms.

Big Calhoun
May 6, 2007, 06:06 PM
During the class I attended in Texas, our instructor also did not give any 'clear cut' scenarios as to when to shoot vs. when not to. Rather, the focus was on what would you do in any given scenario -- situation awareness. I actually appreciated the whole approach as it is a personal decision and there's more than just reacting to a defensive shoot.

a. Our instructor did break for a short 'commercial break' for an outfit offering insurance for concealed handgun carriers. He didn't offer an opinion one way or the other, other that its something good to look into. With the new laws we have coming into play in Texas regarding self-defense shootings, I think it'll become a moot point.

b. In Texas, you must inform LEO if you are armed when stopped.

c. I've used my CHL for ID once or twice. Because of our requirement to give LEO a CHL when asked for ID, I just leave it behind my DL and pull out whatever comes first. One lady gave me a wide smile and nods as if to say, "coool." , the other person didn't even blink IIRC.

d. Your last point I'd say is up to personal preference. I personally started with .40 in a fullsize and then a compact before moving up to .45 in both fullsize and compact. Since I could feel the differences and knew how I should adjust, I think it made me more prepared to move along to the .45. That was just my take on it...again, it's all a personal approach and what you feel works. You know you.

Cesiumsponge
May 6, 2007, 06:29 PM
Also one other reason why a CCW would probably make a lousy ID...I don't think most people know what one is or how they're supposed to look like.

Soybomb
May 6, 2007, 06:45 PM
I was disappointed in the fact that there was no gun handling or live fire training for the class, a little concerning that we don't require something at least basic.
You seem unimpressed with the classroom portion of the class but think there needs to be a live fire requirement. I would urge you to ask yourself if the current system is broken and actually causing any problems to justify your concern, and if you think live fire would actually wind up being better than your classroom time.

J-NM
May 6, 2007, 07:22 PM
SIG245 says [quote]I believe I would disclose my status to an officer if stopped, with my hands on the wheel, in plain sight.[/qoute]

And if LEO ask to see your CCW and "do not move your hands from the wheel" just how would you reply to LEO?

Would LEO not think you could be a problem since you put your hands on the wheel before being asked or told to do so?

Has anyone ever had a problem with LEO once you stated you have a CCW?

fatelk
May 6, 2007, 07:56 PM
The instructor of the class when I got my liscense (many years ago) told us it was better to not say anything unless asked during a traffic stop, but a LEO friend later told me that it was fine to just hand the officer your liscense with your driver's liscense and insurance info.

I've been stopped twice since then and each time didn't even think to mention it, but then again I almost never carry. Both times the officers were very professional, even polite, no tickets.:)

The general consensus here seems to be that LEOs appreciate CHL holders to let them know right away. Any officers here care to weigh in?

I have the CHL because I take a gun in the car whenever we go out of town. I never carry one on my person, just don't like it. Personal decision; absolutely nothing against those who do.

As far as the good shoot/bad shoot question; I have never worried about that myself. I know I could never personally use lethal force unless the life of myself or a family member was clearly and immediately in danger. The thought of taking a life is very unpleasant to me. I could do what I had to to protect myself and my family but only if there was absolutely no other option.

The Unknown User
May 6, 2007, 08:46 PM
1. In the class the subject of Personal liability insurance was brought up saying make sure your PLU coverage does not specifically exempt self-defense situations. Does obtaining insurance against civil liability hurt you in court? I could picture somebody getting convicted because having that insurance would go towards intent in an odd way.The idea of killing someone isn't a good subject. It's dependent on a lot of factors. Where does the shooting take place? Were you honestly in direct danger of being killed?

2. The instructor made a comment that he believes that you should inform an LEO of your CCW holder status at all traffic stops including when your NOT carrying. His argument was that this way they know your not hiding anything.I don't care what the law says or doesn't say. If I get pulled over or have to deal with an LEO for anything other than a simple hello in passing, I will be telling them I carry and that I am licensed. LEO's are there to protect and serve, and as I could potentially present a threat I want them to know I am not one.

3. The instructor said it was a really bad idea to use your CCW as photo ID ANYWHERE. Does anybody else share this feeling?I agree with that. It doesn't matter if it's legal to own/carry/etc. Don't make more work for yourself. You don't need to identify yourself as a gun owner for no reason.

4. The point was made that smaller firearms are harder to handle so there for your first carry gun should be a larger framed one until you gain the skills and ability to carry something smaller and thus harder to handle. I guess my counter argument would be that, larger guns are less convenient thus less likely to actually GET carried.One hand I want to say you should practice with what you'll be carrying, but on the other hand I think it might be better to start out on something user-friendly, such as a .22 or something that won't be difficult for a new user to use.

skidooman
May 6, 2007, 08:59 PM
on the subject of using your ccw as ID, I was in casino waiting in line to get money from the ATM, and was approached by a security guard, I look young for my age and he wanted to see some ID, after presenting my DL he told me that he thought it was fake and asked if I had another form, I said sure, presented my ccw, he looked at it for about a half a second, and said "have a nice day sir."

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