[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

I just discovered "thehighroad.org" several days ago, and would like to express my excitment and enthusiasm.

I too have a burning interest in shotguns, and have felt for some time that there has been something missing with respect to the ultimate CQB shotgun. So several months ago I began working hard to develop something that might fill the void.

I initiated several threads on various internet forums that I followed to try and solicit feedback from the general shotgun community (for example: AR15.com development process (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=168809))...I wish I would have known about this place then!

So...here is where I am at:

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/prototype_III.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/Configurations_Concepts.jpg

I am just getting ready to create my master molds for the investment casting process....before I do, I would love to hear what you all think would make it better!

Thank you and take care...

BrobeeBiter

[Dave McCracken]

First, welcome aboard.

Nice, but....

I'm a little skeptical about "Ultimate" anything.

A couple notes....

That stock will not work well with certain sighting systems, including the plain bead that STILL is a darn good setup for close and sudden crisis management. Something like a standard stock with a shorter LOP should be an option. Good pads on either are a must have. With the right sight setup, that AR style stock will perform well.

Pic rails on the bottom and both sides of the extension for lights and so on makes sense.

If you're making Trigger Groups instead of obtaining them from Remington, add 1/8" or so to trigger width for better control, and while you're at it put a bump in the rear of the trigger to reduce overtravel. And get that trigger to a SAFE and clean sub 4 lb pull.

Also, find a low power shotgun scope, like that expensive Leopold 3X, and a suitable mount, possibly QD, that keeps zero for slug accuracy.

I recommend QD studs for a sling both on the bottom and side for versatility.

HTH....

[Mr. Black]

Unfortunately a good portion of us live in the "there is no need for a short scattergun" land

But I like your work, that's very slick.

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's a good system the way it is, imho.


if you want to put lights on it in a QD fashion, then making a pumphandle with rails is the way to go.


how much will this be going for?

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello again!

Dave M: I agree with many of the things you wrote in your reply:

-"ultimate" is a pretty strong adjective in a world where things are often less distinct than a guy might like. Everybody's needs and preferences are going to be at least slightly different (more likely wildly different!) and in describing the system as "the ultimate" I'll confess heartily to a strong dose of my own perspective. Other perspectives are important, and that is why frank and honest discussion has such a high value for me.

- Sighting System. Early on into the development process, I discovered first hand how much my CQB system sucked with the mother of all (and all time reigning K.I.S.S champion) sighting systems...the mighty bead. For those reading, the problem is that your shoulder is anatomically alot lower than your eye (medical discovery of the century for me!) and with the stock directly in line with the barrel (awesome for muzzle rise and recoil control), it is just not possible to sight directly down the barrel. some sort of elevated sighting system would be required to use the adapter the way you see it. My thoughts on the sighting system resulted in the full length rail. I'm going to make one that only runs the length of the receiver, but I like the full length one better) Consideration of a sighting system with use of the stock is extremely important.

- Trigger groups: Thus far I have limited my efforts to the development of the stock adapter and rail system, They fit on a stock 870, the only modification being that the rail system is more secure if you drill and tap a hole in the top of the receiver (but not required) I have replaced many of my 870 express trigger groups with ones from wingmasters and these seem to work well. I do think that limiting the over travel is a good idea.

- Sling: a hole for a swivel will be drilled into the side of the stock adapter, and I really like the GG&G front sling mount that screws on behind the magazine cap.


Andrew W and Dave M:

- Lights and such: Andrew: was this what you had in mind?

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/configuration_rail_handguard.jpg

I've thought about grinding one of these out, but figured I should walk before I run and that it might be a little in the overkill department. I think that the magtube is a pretty good spot for a light, or possibly an attachment that goes on the full length rail. Feedback on what you guys prefer would be greatly appreciated!


Mr. Black:

- Short Barreled Shotguns: Welcome to the world of tradeoffs! The only thing I gain with the shorter barrel on the gun as depicted is associated with maneuverability and handling charracteristics. This comes at a pretty hefty price too: massive muzzle flash (depending on your perspective, this might be an added benefit!), louder report, more dangerous (it is easier to get your hand infront of the barrel...yikes!), fewer choke options, decreased muzzle velocity, regulatory headaches in the US, etc etc etc. However all is not lost...the CQB stock adapter and rail mounting system as seen in the picture attach as easily to an 18.5 or 20 inch 870.

Your feedback is extremely appreciated!

edited to add: Retail Price: While it is a little soon to know, I am shooting for a retail price of $100-$115.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[Correia]

Very interesting.

Welcome to THR Brobee.

I can see this have some good marketing potential to PDs that already have 870s in inventory.

Since you are using an AR stock, I think you should use a multi position type so that they can set the stock up for the individual user, or trim it down if they are wearing body armor.

A rubber butt pad would be great also. The flat metal or plastic works fine on a AR with no recoil, but it wouldn't be pleasant with slugs.

Something you may want to take a look at as an accesory, (I'll try to describe this as best as I can) make a side saddle/iron sight set up. Only instead of it being a side saddle, have it be a Top saddle. It can run the length of the weapon, holds shells (sideways) that can be pulled out and single loaded through the port, and have a basic set of iron sights at the front and the rear. The height of the shells above the receiver, with the irons on top will put it at about the correct height for a good cheek weld with a straight line stock.

However don't patent the Top Saddle because I'm already using one for a shotgun that I'm designing. :D

[BrobeeBiter]

Correia....

-El-MEGA-SEXY-idea: Your top-saddle/sight combination idea now has me sitting here with a massive, uncontrollable grin as I contemplate what a seriously cool idea that is! Rest assured, I have no intention of patenting it...what are your thoughts if I built some with the intent of having it available as an accessory for my CQB 870?

-Rubber Butt Pad: I originally thought this would be required, however having fired over 500 rounds of slug through my test gun, I have to confess that the collapisble AR style stock tames the perceived recoil somewhat. I have no trouble or discomfort shooting
full house loads, and have had some small statured people try it out and report similar feelings. I'm going to have to do more research (ie: have myself and others play with the gun a bunch more)...
:D

-Telescoping Stock: A telescoping stock was the whole reason I wanted to build the adapter...it is extremely useful for shooters of all sizes, as well as T-shirt-brobee vs. winter-coat-Brobee. It is my opinion that a telescoping stock has huge advantages over a folding stock and significant advantages over a fixed stock.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[Andrew Wyatt]

how much will this cost?


is there any way i can get in on the beta testing?

[hilljack22]

FYI...

Just Recently saw in "Gun World" Magazine a writeup of FN's new combat shotgun which used the AR collapsable stock and pistol grip, A2 sights and a piccanty (sp?) rail. I believe it was the May or June issue.

[Correia]

Brobee, go for it. :) The gun that I was going to use this for is still a ways off. I'm currently working on a rifle design, that the prototype is only about 50% completed. So my shotgun is probably not going to have an existing prototype until some time in 2004. Go for it. I think it would be a seriously cool accesory.

Maybe with the straight line stock rubber might not be as neccesary. I just like rubber more for how it sticks to your shoulder than for recoil absorbtion.

If you need beta testers let us know. :) Dave here has forgotten more about shotguns than most of us will ever know, and I'm a good beta tester if you need a big fellas perspective.

[hksw]

What folding front sight on the full rail is that on the first pic?

[CRUSHER]

Looks like a great idea for some applicatons

[Gordon]

I would just make the stock adapter and rail and buy the best existing parts available to make it up. Funny how profile of old Choate pistol grip stock if overlaid on your idea is not that much different. Thats why I went to Choate stock on my 870 and 1100 3 gun match guns in the 80's: to have commonalllity to AR (and HK).:)

[Cameron Lamont]

Do you mean something like this one:


http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/guns_1100px/fn_sg_tactical.jpg

You can find it on the FN Website:

FN USA (http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_tactical.htm)


Regards,
Cameron

[Andrew Wyatt]

the 870 AR will be quite a bit less than that, though.

[Cameron Lamont]

... yep.

You get what you pay for.

Cameron

[Andrew Wyatt]

true. with the defender, you get an aluminum framed gun that won't last as long as an 870.

[Cameron Lamont]

That is funny I remember people used to say that about aluminum frame 1911s...

and Japanese cars.


Cameron

[Andrew Wyatt]

honestly, i'm not that fond of either the 870 or the defender. the lifters cover the loading port and the bolt release is in a funny location.


if someone made a mossberg with a rotary bolt, it'd be the bees knees.

hrrm. would it be possible to put an smbidextrous SKS style safety on the AR/870?

[Dave McCracken]

Brobeebiter, looks good, and I'll be glad to try out the prototype and field test it.

The offers good to any other shotgun designers. Contact me here.

Some KAR style stocks have intermediate positions,IIRC. One of those can let the shooter tailor the LOP to the shooter and situation. Example, shooting with or without body armor.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

- Cameron L: I became aware of the FN Tactical Shotgun about a third of the way into my development efforts. As my original motivation was based on my impression that what I wanted to accomplish was not available, this put a pretty quick halt to development while I tried to learn a bit about the FN. When I learned that the FN was based on the winchester, I was pretty saddened, as it is my opinion that the 1300 is not as good a gun as the 870 (I was a defender owner for 7 years before consciously and purpously switching to the 870, and I'm very happy I did). I was even more discouraged when I discovered that I would have to buck up for the whole shotgun (ie: an adapter would not be offered), and that it was going to be as expensive as it was. Bottom line: as a consumer, based on my personal preference towards the 870 as a shotgun, I was not prepared to shell out the coin required to pick up a souped up 1300. I resumed my development effort. Having played with my test guns a bunch, the full length picatinny rail is growing on me in a big way, and I feel like what I currently have is, again only in my opinion, better than the FN Tactical Shotgun.

One last thing...there is an advantage to the FN gun over mine: the geometry of the FN tactical shotgun's approach to the mounting of an AR style stock is such that any AR style stock can be mounted...ie: A2 type stocks that require the lock ring profile below the buffer tube. To reduce the amount of height required to address the sight alignment geometry issues and for recoil/handling properties, I deliberately chose to make my adapter without this profile. This was a sacrafice, as some people will want to mount fixed AR stocks rather than the collaspible styles.

- hksw: The flip up front sight is manufactered by Knight Armament Corporation, product # 99051. While expensive, it is very well made and works quite well. The only thing that I think would make it better would be if the shroud protecting the front sight came all the way around the top of the sight, as it does in the PRI flip up sight/gas block for the AR-15. For those who are interested, the rear flip up sight is an ARMS #40.

- Andrew W: too soon to know on the cost, but I am targeting a retail price of $100-$115 for the adapter...the stock would be extra (I am working on a deal to buy just the buffer tubes and the collapsible stocks minus the spring and the buffer...you should not have to pay for what you don't need!). I am currently in the process of pinning down manufacturing costs, and expect to have a much better idea within the next couple of weeks.

SKS Style safety: I am not familiar with this particular device...do you have a photograph?

- Dave M: :)...if I had a nickel for everyone who has offered to beta test the adapter, I could probably quit my day job. I sincerely appreciate the offer...perhaps once I have my first production run complete we can discuss the possibility of a product review.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[Andrew Wyatt]

Brobee: It's a trigger blocking safety that's a little lever that's mounted at the rear of the triger guard. down is fire, up is safe.

SKS rifles all have them.

[hksw]

Thanks for the info BB.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm mostly asking about the SKS safety becaue i want one of these stocks for my mossberg. bad.

[natedog]

Oh Yay! Now we can hang crap on our shotguns too! :rolleyes:

[Andrew Wyatt]

Thank you for contributing so VERY much to the conversation.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Small Update: I used some of my prototype parts to put together an 18.5 inch gun to photograph:

http://www.argonautarmament.com/development/14_inch_and_18_inch_guns.jpg

I'm getting both guns/stock adapters/rails powdercoated sometime late this week, and will post some pictures then. I'm also going to try to get outdoors (most of my test firing has been in indoor ranges where the light sucks!) for a shooting photo session.

Production update: casting bids are coming back and looking promising. Tentative production schedule happening in July with delivery mid to late August! Woohoo!

Take care....

BrobeeBiter

[Navy joe]

I'm sorry, but IMO you took one of the best natural pointing and easy to fit guns out there and ruined it.

The conventional stock is what the 870 needs, a pistol grip opens your stance up and things just don't point nice. I'm lanky enough that I don't even shorten std. 870 stocks.

Sights on a shotgun: A shotgun should point. I want a windage and elevation adjustable sight for slugs, but won't do it until I can make a rear that folds out of sight when not used. Front bead/fiber bead will be used with apeture rear. Any other sights obstruct too much of the target for a shotguns primary uses and get your eye up off the bore axis. I shoot with a plain bbl and reciever rib only.

If I want an AR-15 I have one. Further I think an 18" bbl 870 is plenty short enough. That Mattel stock will also make the gun more nose heavy as well as collapse under extreme use. The sight rib goes back to getting your eye away from where it belongs which is down on the bore axis. More crap to undo to strip the gun too. Red dot sight? Uses batteries, not to depend on.

[earl_simmons]

I like it. I don't know how well a rail-mounted forward grip (especially the plastic KAC version) will hold up to vigorous operation, though. And unlike some folks who appear to believe that what fits them should fit every other human on the planet, I appreciate the capability of mounting the collapsible stock. As one with short arms and large pectorals, I'd love to attach the RRA "stubby" A2 stock.

[Kestryll]

Are you planning anything for the Mossberg shotguns?

[Andrew Wyatt]

a mossberg done up like that would need to have a trigger blocking safety as part of the stock, methinks.


it could be done.

[Andrew Wyatt]

another thing you might want to look into is a no tools way of removing the barrel for cleaning. i have a sling ring on my mossberg, and i have to use an allen wrench to clean the gun.


this is no fun.

[BrobeeBiter]

Navy joe:

No need to be sorry! This type of frank discussion is exactly what I am looking for and honestly I am grateful for as many varied opinions as I can get. If all I was interested in was telling people all about my opinion I would not learn very much.

I realize that what I have done is very much targeted towards very specific mission requirements and that it is by far not for everyone....especially those that prefer the very good design philosophy and beauty of simplicity.

I am very and sincerely interested to know what you use your shotgun for?

For those reading, let me introduce you to a bit of the mission requirements that lead to this little project. I primarily use my shotgun for three things...home protection, big game hunting, and backcountry bush bear defense. I suspect this might spark some heated debate, but allow me to briefly discuss my approach to these three Brobee-requirments. While these philosophies extend into many other veins of the smoothbore world, I am going to try to keep them relevent to design considerations inherent to a shotgun equipped as you see above. Let's explore backcountry bear protection and big game hunting first.

I carry my shotgun a great deal in the bush...when I am camping or hiking it is carried on the exterior of my pack and when I am hunting I carry it primarily in a low ready type configuration. When used for general bear protection, the ability to store the shotgun while having it accessable is the challenge. Folding stocks are great for transportation/portability part of this equation, but seriously lack when the gun is called for without the time to muck around with the stock. I feel strongly enough about this to state that in my opinion, a folding stock absolutely has no place on a 12 gauge. Based on experience, I have found it very difficult and unwieldly to carry a full length shotgun attached to the exterior of my pack. The combination of a 14 inch barrel and a telescoping stock makes for me an ideal solution to this scenario...the gun can always be fired from the shoulder, and it's overall length is only 28 inches: only two inches longer than an 18.5 inch gun with a folding-type stock. In these types of situations, I subscribe in a big way to the James Gary Sheldon school of bear defense and as such my bear gun is loaded with slugs. I agree that the gun should be able to point quickly in the event of chargin bear, however a well aimed shot is the overwhelming objective, thus my preference for some sort of iron sights.

When big game hunting, still hunting and stalking is my preferred methodology. I typically carry my shotgun at a low ready and appreciate in a big way a pistol grip type stock during the hours upon hours that I am slowly creeping through the bush. I now believe I understand why most of the world's military rifles are equipped with this type of stock, as it is my opinion that this makes prolonged carrying in a condition of semi-readiness way easier. Here in Alberta, it is illegal to big game hunt with any form of ammunition other than slug, so I also and again appreciate some sort of sighting system a little more precise than the mighty bead. I really like the red dot with the backup irons for this application. The red dot is ultra fast to acquire, lends very well to my preferred style of both eyes open, easy to point, and also carries an inherent high degree of precision. For hunting, I prefer an 18.5 or 20 inch barrel to my 14.

With respect to home defense, #9 shot, #4 buck, and slug are my loads of choice. Both eyes open is a critical requirement and pointability is also very important. Until I tried a red dot style sight on my combat shotgun, I did not appreciate how quick and effective this technology was for me for these requirements of inherent quick handling and instinctual target acquisition. I also appreciate the less obstructed view of a forward mounted red dot sight in comparison to the slightly more limited field of view when sighting directly down the receiver/barrel. I also appreciate a short shotgun here, as I feel it handles slightly faster and is a bit more versatile when negotiating and navigating the geometery of my house.

I want to stress again that these are only my thoughts. I have no illusions that what I prefer is what is best for everyone...and I sincerely want to understand what you prefer and why.

Thanks so much for the feedback...

Take care...

BrobeeBiter!

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello all!

Several things I neglected to address in my last post (I kept getting distracted while writing it...d'oh!)

Why do I prefer a collapsible stock? In addition to the overall length component of the equation as noted in my previous post, I am a short stocky guy who, in the pursuit of my outdoor objectives and living in Canada, can go from wearing a t-shirt to a winter parka in the course of the same day. For me a fixed stock does not have anywhere near the same flexibility in this department as a telescoping one and having my shotgun fit properly is, in my mind, important. This versatility is important to me. I initially tried to address this issue by purchasing a Sage International telescoping stock. Unfortunately, living in Canada, they would not sell me one. *sigh*

Durability of the collapsible stock: This was originally a big concern for me as well. I was especially worried about the steel pin that locks the stock onto it's fixed buffer tubey housing thing (the part that screws into the back of the AR lower), I was concerned that the pin would deform the indexing holes under the recoil of full-house 12 gauge loads. Well...these fears have thus far proved in practice to be unfounded. I have over 2000 rounds through one of my test guns, (with a thousand slug/buck and the remaining lighter trap loads) and there is no sign of deformaties or fatigue. The stock looks and functions as it did the day I screwed it onto the back of my shotgun.

The mossberg: Pending commercial success of the 870 adapter, I was going to tackle the Winchester next (only because I am frightened of mucking with the mossberg safety!).

Forward mounted vertical handle: I agree...a plastic one would be iffy at best...my thoughts are that if I pimped up a gun like that it would have to have a steel vertical handle of some sort. I don't think that the three sided picatinny pumper is going to happen any time soon and if so it would probably only be to put on the gun, have a good laugh, take some photograps to post and figure out if there would be any interest in something like that. My personal feelings are that it is a little exessive. The reason I drew it up was in consideration of places to put an M4 illuminator...maybe I'll start with a small mounting rail under the front stock...

Tool-less removal of the rail: I don't think this is going to happen. One of the things I really enjoy about the rail is how much better it secures the barrel in contrast to the mag extension/cap alone. Currently, removing one countersunk hex-keyed capscrew detaches the rail from the front rail adapter. Alan keys are plentiful, and I feel like I would sacrifice an improved ease of takedown for the rigidity of the system the way it is. If a guy really wanted to, I guess a hand-tightened bolt with a large head could be made...it could even have a threaded hole for a permanent front sight....I might have to spin that up on my taig (teeny-weenie hobby lathe) just to check it out....:)

Thanks again for the feedback...

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter!

[Navy joe]

I use my 18" bbl 870 Police for HD, truck gun, 3 gun, deer hunting, and skeet if I can find a range where people don't die when a IC bore riot gun with a sidesaddle shows up to break birds. :D

I am a big believer in conventional stocks in that they position my hand in such a way that instinctive sight alignment/shooting is very possible. I Won't have a stock that offers a bad cheek weld. Also, nowhere did I say that it must fit everyone as someone else implied, cut the stock shorter.


Here are some guns that I shoot very well. M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine, M-1A, 870. What they have in common is a conventional comb stock that I can get a good cheek weld on. The lack of a pistol grip gets my stronghand elbow up high in dynamic off hand shooting, making a very stable shooting platform. Another commonality is that what sights there are are very close to the bore axis and align with where my face plops down on the stock.

I shoot my AR quite handily, but it requires more thought since with the PG my stance is opened up and I find myself wondering if my nose is touching the charging handle, where my offhand should be for best balance etc. I find that the PG ,straight stock, and high sights take a little more work when snap shooting than does the std stocked guns. As a shotgun should point naturally I don't want to mess with success.

I am also at my limit with crap on my gun, that limit being a long mag and a sidesaddle. I want (Iwannacoolgunvirus) a Surefire forend, but am 1. Cheap and 2. don't know if I'll like how it makes the gun feel which leads back to #1 in that I'm scared to buy and not like it.

If you do this, get a metal coll. stock like Colt used to make, them cute little plastic ones ain't gonna make it. Hey, you could store ammo in all that space in the stock!

[BrobeeBiter]

Navy Joe:

Thanks for your continued contribution....!

I historically lusted after a sure-fire forend for a long time, and one day one of them showed up on a gun at the range I frequent. I spent quite a bit of time with it and quickly aligned myself with what you expressed your fears to be. Was I ever glad I did not shell out the big cash to buy one! My dislike was centered around the massive girth of this thing and the material it was made from...it was not comfortable at all and I found it very awkwards to handle and work the action of the gun. Again, I'm so very glad I did not buy one.

That being said, the seemingly zillion-candle power light gleaming out the end of this thing was pretty glorious and made me want to put the time into learning to like it...:(. I can certainly see how a light like that is useful and advantagous in a home defense situation, and have been mulling the whole thing over in my mind ever since (that is where the picatinny pumper/M4 illuminator idea came from...as ridiculous as it seems!)

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[max popenker]

just a little idea: why not to mount a short pieces of rail onto the sides of the top rail support (aside the barrel)?

this will leave the forend smooth, yet provide 2 mounting points for laser and light next to the barrel....

on the attached picture, arrow points to the suggested place (both sides of gun)

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=346591

[max popenker]

one more completely crazy idea.

if you can use picatinny rail to mount something ON that gun, why not to use that rail to mout .... shotgun ON something else?

if you know the Masterkey system (that is, a stripped rem870 mounted under the barrel of M16 or M4), why not to desigh a quick-detach masterkey adapter? just mount this adapter under your AR-15 rifle, and when required, remove the butt from shotgun and attach under the rifle using shotguns' rail... when not in need, quickly detach shotgun, and you immediately can user it as a pistol-gripped "cruiser"...

the key problem will be strenght of the Picatinny rail on shotgun :confused:

PS: following that, you can build completely weird "modular" systems, like .22LR pistol under your 12Ga for spotting, or .50AE Desert eagle under the 24" AR-15 sporter for CQB :neener:

:cool:

PPS... i definely need a good beer. cool Guiness will be fine.

[max popenker]

and how about raised full-lenght rail that can be used as a sighting rib, as well as carrying handle, with small integral bead at the front? :uhoh:

[Cameron Lamont]

max popenker: if you can use picatinny rail to mount something ON that gun, why not to use that rail to mout .... shotgun ON something else?

That is it!

If I can find the duct tape

I am going to duct tape my 870 to my AR right now.

C

[45R]

BrobeeBiter-
Now are these conversions for dedicated shotguns. How easy it it to take the picatinny rail off if one wants to switch barrels? Is this secured to the reciever (drilled and tapped) or are these no gunsmitting mods. I'm curious for those who like to play with their toys have their SGs pull various types of duty. (ie HD, hunting)

All in all your mods for the 870 are pretty interesting for the "tactical junkie" who needs to have the latest and greatest of all toys. It looks like it would be alot of fun for 3 gun competition. Maybe good for a competitor to have the same type of grip on the AR as they do the SG. Do you have anyone on your staff that does field work. What do they think? Its definetly got some cool factor.

Let me know!

45R

[355sigfan]

I personally don't use my Vang comped 14 inch 870 with speedfeed shock, side saddle and MMC night sights much any more. I dropped it when AR15's got approved. A bead sight has no place on a fighting shotgun. It severly limits the potential of the gun. Rifle sights or a ghost ring set up is a must. Optics are great so long as you have iron to back them up. I am not sure this conversion is needed. I think the speed feed pistol grip stock is to be preferred of the M4 stock on a shotgun. The optic rail is interesting. But for me I would not bother with all that money into a shotgun when I can have an AR15.
PAT

[Andrew Wyatt]

But for me I would not bother with all that money into a shotgun when I can have an AR15.


I like shotguns for HD and general carrying around instead of a .223 because they throw a .72 caliber lead slug or 9 .30 caliber lead balls around.

a .223 is a little light for anything but people or small deer.


I'm not saying i feel unarmed with an AR or mini-14, i'm just saying that i feel more armed with a shotgun.

[355sigfan]

like shotguns for HD and general carrying around instead of a .223 because they throw a .72 caliber lead slug or 9 .30 caliber lead balls around.

a .223 is a little light for anything but people or small deer.
END

I like a shotgun for bear defence when loaded with slugs. I also like it for home defence because of political reasons. But for work I will take the 223. In this area its more versatile. Now a shotgun is not a bad weapon in the hands of a skilled user. I just prefer the 223 carbine concept. I feel confident in the 223 ability as a fight stopper. I prefer it to buckshot. I would give the 12 gauge slug a nod however.
PAT

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Other than the over-penetration factor (which is irrelevent for 99.9% of the things I use my shotgun for), it is my opinion that it is hard to beat slugs. WHo can argue with a .74 caliber 450 grain projectile whoomping along at 1600 fps? Besides...having the choice to negotiate with a .74 caliber slug, 9-32 caliber balls, 27-22 caliber balls, or 550 pieces of #9 shot is also something I sincerely appreciate. Shotguns truly do it all, and well if you ask me!

max popenker: I think your mini-rail mounted to the z axis of the front barrel clamp has some merit and is something that I might try sometime down the road. For right now, I'm going to concentrate on getting what I've got into production.

45R: The conversion can be mounted without tools to any remington 870 (the current configuration of my full length rail only requires a non-ribbed barrel). I drilled and tapped one of my receivers for the rear rail adapter, however I didn't on my second build and honestly it is not really required. The only reason I might be inclined to do this would be if I was using a picatinny rail that only ran the length of the receiver. In this case I would suggest drilling and tapping one hole into the receiver, but with the full length rail it is unnecessary.

With the full length rail installed, to remove the barrel from the gun you need to remove one hex-key bolt from the front rail adapter.

With respect to my staff...:)...I am an army of one. Well...maybe not entirly...my spouse is planning to help out with the office managing aspect of things once I am past my production run. I'll get some photographs of her handling the gun and post them with some of her comments! (This will have to wait a week or two, as both my test guns are in getting re-finished right now....a greenish-black powder coating that in my opinion, will look extremely sharp!) What did you mean by "field work?" I have had the gun at the range many times and have had as many people as I could find fire the thing...reactions thus far have been extremely positive...in fact I've got about a significant number of my 150 unit preliminary production run already spoken for by these people.

While I am certainly biased, when I try to be as objective and detatched as possible while trying to describe the whole system I can still say that an M4 telescoping stock on a shotgun with elevated sights (either the flip up irons, my EOTech, or my Aimpoint) is a radically different experience I find difficult not te get excited about in a positive way. The only application I believe it falls way short on is in the bird hunting department. For my requirements of HD, Brobee-bush-bear defense gun, and big game hunting, I think it is the cat's a**.

355sigfan: I too really like the AR15 and for a home defense or law-enforcement patrol type application I think it is well suited (particularly if it is a select fiire weapon) as it opens up the effective engagement range from 75-100 yards to over 300. If it is not a select fore weapon, then it is only my opinion that it is not as effective a tool as a shotgun. This also applies for bear defense.

Here in Alberta there are legal considerations across all of my mission requirements with respect to the AR15. Firstly, it is not legal to hunt with a caliber smaller than .243, and secondly even the semi-auto AR15's are considered to be "Restricted Firearms". In Canada, for the most part the only place a regular civilian can legally be in posession of a restricted firearm is at a goverment approved range, their residence (where the firearm is registered as being stored), or a reasonable direct route while transporting said firearm from residence to range (the transportation also requires a permit...called an Authorization to Transport). *sigh*...so while I have a strong affection for my AR15, I can't really use it for anything. While not completely off the government radar (only things like an m203 are...go figure!), a pump action shotgun is at the bottom of the list with respect to legal restrictions and as such it fits both my needs and preferences very well.

I own two speedfeed pistol grip stocks for my 870s and think they are extremely well made and very ergonomic choices. If I did not have the capability of mounting a collapsible M4 stock on my shotgun, the speedfeed products would be my stock of choice. The only mission requirement they did not fill for me was the adjustable length of pull.

Andrew Wyatt: For engagements under 100 yards, I too feel more armed with a shotgun (again unless the alternative to my shotgun has select fire capability)

Take care....

BrobeeBiter

[45R]

What did you mean by "field work?" I have had the gun at the range many times and have had as many people as I could find fire the thing...reactions thus far have been extremely positive...in fact I've got about a significant number of my 150 unit preliminary production run already spoken for by these people.

I meant law enforcement and military types. How did these guys respond to your prototype?

[willyjixx]

Brobee:

M203s are legal in Canada?

i like your proto type! but as for the mossberg adapter you said you gotta work around the safety. couldnt you use the Maverick which is basically a mossy an has the safety behind the trigger?

or were you looking into the 590 as your weapon to adpat the AR too?

another thing. to raise the line of sight of the weapon could you lower the mounting of the stock? it looks like you got a little room to do that. or maybe angle it like a FAL an curve the butt with a rubber pad? might raise cost a little but would provide the use of the bead an lineup.

[Andrew Wyatt]

if you angle the stock, the comba height changes when the stock is collapsed. this is not good.


lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.

[Andrew Wyatt]

if you angle the stock, the comba height changes when the stock is collapsed. this is not good.


lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello!

willyjixx: Believe it or not, the M203 is legal in Canada....well...sort of. You are not allowed to import one, but if you can find one already in the country then there is not problem. It is not even considered to be a firearm by the canadian government as the muzzle velocity of your standard 40mm round is below the magic number (I can't remember exactly what it is, but it is in the neibourhood of 400 fps). I am currently looking for one that I intend to fabricate a standalone stock (so it does not always have to be attached to my AR15; that which is considered to be a firearm and not only that, but one of the evil ones).

The Maverick: I was unaware that the maverick is the same thing as the mossberg, but with a trigger guard type safety. I will have to do some market research and see how many there are out there....most of the Mossbergs I have seen have had the safety on the topmost rear portion of the receiver.

When I designed the adapter, it was my intent to have the stock parallel to the barrel and within an inch of the centerline of the bore. This serves several purposes....putting the stock directly in line with the barrel all but eliminates muzzle rise as well as povides a consistant comb height regardless of the stock position. I put the stock a little lower (but still paralell) such that the elevated optics (required with this configuration) would not be too high above the centerline of the bore. I did a little trajectory modeling with slug ammunition and came up with what I thought was a good balance between all the different variables.

45R: LE and military personnel that have had the opportunity to test fire the weapon have thus far been impressed....I don't have a very large sample group here though (only a couple individuals). They are a large portion of my target market and I need more feedback from them. Several of my initial production models are earmarked for lending for this purpose.

Take care all!

BrobeeBiter

[willyjixx]

here you go brobee.

http://www.maverickarms.com/

its basically a mossberg with a crossbolt safety instead of the one on the rear (tang?)

i think they allready do have versions of a stand alone M-203 which uses a folding stock. like a over the top model that choate makes for shotguns. ill look it up some more!

can you get 203 rounds in Canada? if so what type an how much per round? an would it be illegal to ship/drive across borders woth this kind of ammo? if it is then forget it!!!! but if it isnt then ........Cool!.......

i would like to get ahold of some TPT. its the training rounds the military uses. its just a marking powder in the shell an is fired from the primer no powder. there very fun though!!

[nvrquit]

.... and a possible option for future mods for my 870.

Keep the posts updated on production/cost of units. How close are you to production or pre-production testing of commercially cast units?

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello!

willyjixx: 203 rounds are available here in Canada, however as I don't yet have a launcher I have not put much homework into what flavors are available (I think I can state with some certainty though that HE is out...:(!). I believe they are also pretty expensive, like $25/round. If this were true, it would be my intent to spin my own casings and fabricate my own ammunition.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Progress Update: The master injection mold is about a week and a half away from being complete with pre-production testing of the commercially cast units scheduled to take place the last week of July. This testing will entail two or three units, a thourough measurement sessionfor each one, mounting to all 6 of my 870 receivers to test for fit (amazingly enough, they are all slightly more different dimensionally than one might imagine), and then 250 rounds of buck/slug for each adapter. I'll also have to do some testing on the finish I'm planning to use, but I don't think that this would hold up proceeding with the casting run. I should be able to get all of this testing done in a weekend and have the main production run underway by the first week in August.

I currently have two guns rigged up as test platforms and continue to shoot them with much enjoyment:

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/14_inch_gun.gif

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/14_inch_gun_II.gif

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/14_inch_gun_III.gif

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/18_inch_gun.gif

These are both finished with a matte grey heat cured polyester based powder coating. The coating is a little thick and made for a slightly tight gun assembly, but thus far has proved to be quite durable.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[willyjixx]

those are sweet looking!! keep us all posted. even individaul e-mail on my part would be great!

[nvrquit]

I agree with other following this post on the request that you post the results of the T&E.

I like the looks of the last posted pick. What length barrel was used, 20"? Are the fold down non-optical sights G,G&G?

[Dave McCracken]

Looks good, let's see how it works. Thanks for the update....

[IRONFIST]

Looks like I am going to have to buy one when they are available for retail sales. My wife is gonna hate you BrobeeBiter!

Michael of IronWolf Industries in Sandy, Oregon

[dport]

This makes a semi-auto guy like me want an 870. The LCV is extremely high.

[CWL]

Hi Brobee,

I'm late in joining this bandwagon but I like what you are doing (is retail price quote in $CDN?) Whatever the cost, it's much more solid & practical looking than the Beretta M4.

I'd also like to suggest allowing for addition of white light/lasers to the top rail (I like all my controls in one place). Possible appliation for me in SD will be at night. I think that LEOs will be needing white light for their applications as well.

If it is too late or bothersome to add side rails onto the top rail, how about addition of mountable side rails?

[OEF_VET]

You're going to make me shelve my Mossbergs in favor of an 870 in the near future. Man, that thing looks sweet!

Frank

[Rob62]

Hi BrobeeBiter,

Good luck with the project.

My comment pertains to the fore end. May I strongly suggest that you re-look the issue of making one with the built in rail mounts. Maybe 3 rails, one on each side and one on the bottom, would be excessive. But how about 1 just on the bottom, or one on each side.

AFAIK no one is making anything like this for shotguns and someone SHOULD!

I believe you could do quite well just selling an item like this as an aftermarket accessory. The value I see in such a fore end is the fact that any M3 type light could be easily slippped on and off the fore end and used as needed. As you know many of us prefer some type of a white light capability on such a gun and don't want to spend the bucks for a Surefire front end light.

Regards,

Rob

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

nvrquit: The longer gun in the newest set of photographs is equipped with a 19 inch barrel and a two round remington magazine extension. The 14 inch gun is equipped with a Knight Armament RAS Flip up front sight (product #99051) and an ARMS #40 flip up rear sight. I mail ordered them from Sableco (http://www.sableco.net) and while they are expensive, they are in my opinion both very good products.

willyjixx: I am currently building an e-mail list of people to notify as soon as I take delivery of the first set of adapters. People on the list will be given the opportunity for first dibs. If you would like, send me an e-mail to jason@argonautarmament.com and I would be more than happy to add you to the list.

CWL: Thanks so much for your encouragement! I am still trying to quantify with more certainty the cost of doing business across international borders; my target price for adapters sold in the US is between $100 and $115 American dollars.

CWL & Rob62: I have long lusted for a surefire illuminated forend, and have almost bucked up the mega cash required for one more than once. Then one showed up at the local range I frequent and I had the opportunity to play with it for the afternoon. Was I ever dissapointed and glad I did not buy one! My dissatisfaction centered around it's huge girth and clammy soft plastic feel. I also felt the switching mechanism left alot to be desired. All that being said, I have to confess that the seemingly ga-zillion candlepower shaft of brilliant light that dissolves darkness on command is pretty seductive. It has had me thinking about the best way to incorporate an illuminator ever since. Currently, some of my thoughts are:

1. I really like the M3 illuminator type light. They are compact, very bright, and easily adaptable to the picatinny standard.

2. I recently acquired in a trade both a pump action and semi auto fabarm shotgun. (I'll post some pictures in the appropriate fabarm related discussion topics as soon as I can bring them home...they are at the range/shop right now pending my government to get their butts in gear with respect to the paperwork!) They both came with a longer forend with a short picatinny rail screwed upfront onto the bottom. I thought this was pretty cool until I fired them and found that even with the extended forend, the sharp edges of the rail made for some moderate punishment (with broken skin) on my support hand. I have not written the concept off though and I still have a lot more playing, er...make that research to do.

3. So with 1 and 2 in mind, I've been thinking that one solution is to manufacture a t-type picatinny to picatinny type fixture that would allow the M3 illuminator to be mounted sideways off the full length rail accessory to my stock adapter system. Esthetically though, I like the light inline (ie: underneith) the gun and am still toying with some other ideas for mounting to a forend.

As always, spirited feedback and discussion is highly encouraged and valued!

I agree with many of you that the Bad-A**-Cool factor of the gun is extremely high....I was out shooting slug and buck through both guns again this evening and had a big grin on my face the whole time....

Thanks again for your feedback....

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

[nvrquit]

... look upon the "non-fixed" stock and the "pistol type" grip in combination on a AR15/870 CQB equipped 870 as an evil assault weapon?

Seems each country has its own PC problems.

[CWL]

Brobeebiter,

I was thinking M3 lights as well. It is very compact, light, bright enough for SD/CQB environment and doesn't require expensive mounts.

I'd prefer a side mount because this keeps all controls in one area or side of weapon rather than one set for top and one set for bottom of SG.


You are going to make me 'soup up' my 870, a day I'd never think I'd see!

[gun-fucious]

your design is much cleaner looking then the Cav arms unit:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=61&t=140700
http://www.cavalryarms.com/SST-870-03.jpg

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello Everyone!

nvrquit: I believe that the Assult Weapons Ban evil feature list applies to semi-automatic firearms and as such, we are good to go with the AR15-870 CQB Stock adapter for a pump gun. I readily admit that I am by no means an expert in this department, so people with more experience/knowledge than me please pipe up! I have written a letter to the ATF to clairify this and several other issues, and will keep you all up to date with their response.

Interest in the adapter is high enough that I am starting to have a considerable number of people asking to get put on a *RESERVED* list to save them an adapter for when the first manufacturing run of 150 arrives in late August/early September.

In response, I have created this "RESERVED" list of people who would like to secure their adapter. All you have to do to get on the list is send me an e-mail at jason@argonautarmament.com and I will both reply (to confirm receipt of your e-mail) and place on reserve an adapter for you. Those who have e-mailed me in the past are already on the list.

Once I have approved the quality control of the master mold/casting process and pay the remaining balance on the first production run, I will finalize and publish my pricing and begin to take payment from those wishing to purchase. This should take place in the next couple of weeks. People on the reserved list will get an e-mail with instructions on where to send the cheque/bank draft or how to use paypal. Once this e-mail goes out, your reserved status will be maintained for 3 weeks pending receipt of payment. If, after the three weeks is up and no payment has been received, an individual would be removed from the list and their reserved adapter would go back into the pool of those available for general sale.

I have 150 adapters on the way and a smaller batch of rear rail adapters and receiver length picatinny rails. Everything is still on schedule for late August/early September availability. The full length rail is quite expensive though (ie: at least 4 times the price of a receiver length rail) and I'm thinking that to more effectively manage my cash flow it will be made available by pre-paid special order (ie: manufactured only when I can afford to pay for it.


Does this sound reasonable? If not, discussion is encouraged!

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[gun-fucious]

the 1994 ban says:
SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS and
LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING
DEVICES under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER
44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime Control
and Law Enforcement Act of 1994
(enacted September 13, 1994)
§ 921(a)(30) The term 'semiautomatic assault weapon'
means:

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

(B) any firearm that -
(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;

[nvrquit]

..., to have answered my inquiry as to the BATF/AW94 Ban applying. Though there is the never ending manner in which the BATF will sometimes "re-interpret" a ruling or section of existing code/law.

I guess it's best to wait for the "official BATF" response to BrobeeBiter's inquiry.

Excellent post though!

[BluesBear]

I would really love one of these for my Mossberg 590.
However I really don't have the need for the rail.

Regarding the top mounted safety of the Mossberg how about just a basic stock adaptor that mounted lower on the receiver? It seems to me that if the center line of the buffer tube was on axis with the magazine tube instead of the barrel you could still access the safety and use the original sights.

Recoil should still be better than a standard stock.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Here are the photographs of the illuminator mount I've been working on. I was holding off on taking the pictures as I am waiting for a more compact ARMS throw lever mount (the dual lever mount is a little large and a single would suffice), however delivery of this item to me has been delayed.

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/Universal_Front_Adapter_M3_.gif

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/Universal_Front_Adapter_Gun.gif

The ARMS dual throw lever mount is what I am currently using for the bayonet/illuminator combination, and it is quite a sight to behold! One might think it's a little excessive though, and as such I hesitate to post photographs of the beast in her full glory (I would not want to frighten the children!).

[edited to add] I've been experimenting pretty heavily with the placement of the illuminator; it started out mounted way forwards and a little lower, however once I stumbled upon the ARMS throw lever mount and attached the whole nine yards to the rail, I quickly came to really appreciate the ergonomics of the M3 illuminator controls above the pumping mechanism. The support hand can easily access the controls and in my opinion/experience was extremely intuitive to use. All I can say about the light is WOW!

BluesBear: Pending commercial success of the 870 adapter, I might try my hand at an adapter for manufacturer's shotguns. I'd love to start the work right now, but in all realism it is more than likely not going to take place for some time. My sincere apologies...:(

Take care all...

BrobeeBiter

[Dave McCracken]

Wow! That's an impressive looking shotgun. You may want to consider reversing the light mount to put the light on t'other side. That way, it'll balance out the cant to port caused by the rounds in the Side Saddle.

How much does the whole shebang weigh? My guess, close to 10 lbs....

[BrobeeBiter]

Admiral Dave: I hoisted the completely pimped up gun over the scale this morning and you are very right: she's 9.6 lbs with the side saddle loaded up. The light mount is ambidextrous...it can hang off of either the port or starboard bow of the battleship. I'm left handed and as such, my right is my forwards support hand. I've monkeyed around with the light hanging off both sides, and can't decide whether I like actuating it with my index finger (left side) or my thumb (right side).

All: As a side note, on one of the other forums I'm posting on, some recent discussion has been initiated on the M3 illuminator and how does not meet the muster with respect to military/heavy LE deployment. How about your experiences?

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[Dave McCracken]

Can't help much about the M3. When Erick gets back, I'm sure he's much more current on this. I've heard through the grapevine there's much coming out of the Anti-Jihad about lights, infra red and so on. Stay tuned...

S'funny, my HD 870 with 18" barrel, extension and S/S runs close to 9.5. That's with 5 in the mag. I'da thought the setup was a bit heavier.

Meanwhile, let me know when you need Beta Testers....

[Daedalus]

It looks cool, and you are keeping us all in the loop during the design phase and even showing us prototypes. :cool:

[dport]

It still works for me and I shoot it on my Benelli. You could get a pig-tailed pressure switch. Doesn't look as good, but function over form in this case.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Dave: I bet the bulk of the difference is in the stocks...The AR telescoping stock weighs nothing while the standard shotgun stock has a bit of mass to it. The gun was also unloaded (but with 6 on the sidesaddle)...so deployed weight is going to have the incremental weight of the additional 5 rounds

Daedalus: I'll do my best to keep you guys in the loop! Feedback is especially important to me as it is so easy to get caught up in my own train of though and forget about the world of experience that flourishes outside outside of what and how I think. All who participate in these discussions have helped enormously and I am grateful.

dport: I haven't had any issues with my M3 either...however I have not been kicking down doors nor crawling through the mud with it either (I will do some crawling through the mud this fall come deer/bear season though!)

Aww shucks...my self restraint is eroding and the beast is scratching at the door of her cage:

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/Bayonet_II.gif

Take care all...

BrobeeBiter

[Dave McCracken]

Yup, between the 5 in the S/S and the 5 in the magazine.

Not much on the Cool Factor, but sure would like to play with this one...

[Nightcrawler]

I generally don't like the CAR stocks....but you can put a BAYONET ON IT?? SWEET....

I've been lusting after your design ever since I first saw it. WAY cooler than that thingamagig from FN.

Thanks for taking lefties into consideration! (I'm left handed too). I don't like the 870s safety, being lefty, but it works. (I don't have an 870, I have a Chinese clone of one...your attachment wouldn't work on my gun, I don't think, but this setup would be worth buying a whole new gun for).

I'd be durn tempted to go through all of the hassle of getting a short barreled shotgun just so I could have this....

[BrobeeBiter]

Nightcrawler: I'm familiar with several iterations of the Chinese knock-offs (Norinco) and the adapter will work with all of them. The rail system might be a little more problematic, but I wouldn't write it off immediately.

For those reading, some of the chinese made guns have extended the built in magazine tube (like an extension) and as a result have the barrel mounting lug further down the barrel. The front rail adapter/barrel clamp I use for mounting the fore part of the rail might still fit if it did not interfere with the pumping mechanism/transfer bars.

The bayonet mount in it's current execution only works with a 14 inch barreled gun. *sigh*...It is so excessive, but at the same time oozing with a primal sort of barbaric attraction I can't quite describe; I oscillate wildly between hating it and loving it.

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

[2nd Amendment]

Man I like that. I like that a LOT!

[nvrquit]

BrobeeBiter,

You are making the other items on my wants list(or maybe it really is a "needs" lists?!?) get very nervous.....

The Inox Beretta Type M and Sig220ST have stopped figthing for the top spot and are forming a pact, in an effort to keep the AR15/870 CQB from being in first position.....

Ah, decisions, decisions.....


Keep us updated and I'm looking forward to that email for order info when the units are ready!

[dport]

I just read where you got the information about the M3. I did a search on that forum. I could find no negative posts about the light itself. There does seem to be a problem with using it on certain pistols, something about the recoil spring.

I think as long as you can mount a M1913 rail system light to the gun that you'll be fine.

[jthuang]

Wow, this may actually convince me to buy a (used) Rem 870 in anticipation of acquiring this kit. :)

Justin

[Dr.Rob]

Well the AW ban answered my first question why an 870 instead of an 11-87.

I'd shop this design around to some hollywood armorers. Looks wicked cool, needs some screen time. the green finish is tough-looking and nonreflective.

As for actual utility, I still think raising the aiming point 3 inches over the bore is a bad thing.

Still, I think you are onto something.

[Nightcrawler]

Now am I to understand that you can ONLY mount CAR stocks on this shotgun? I think I'd prefer an A1 stock, myself.

[ctdonath]

Nifty gizmo!

I built something along the same lines (though not as slick) precisely to create the hands-down most legal gun in NY. <tangent> Perversely, a rifled shotgun (as originally built at factory) is not, in NY legal jargon, a firearm or shotgun or rifle or anything defined. Lacking legal definition, it is not regulated. Painfully extensive details here (http://www.donath.org/Rants/NYSpecial). My result was a Mossberg with folding stock, pistol grip, red-dot sight, and sidesaddle.

Yours is, of course, slicker. Point is: build it from a from-factory rifled shotgun and it may be more useful in NY (city included).

[BrobeeBiter]

Nightcrawler: Yes you are correct...the stock has been designed for a telescoping tube type stock. A regular A1 stock will fit, however not very well(the bottom nub sticks out).

ctdonath: My plan for the get go is to not build complete guns for sale...I am primarily interested in manufacturing the adapter and making it available to as many people as I can. This is where my focus will be for the first couple of years. Pending commercial success, I might look at packaging complete guns, but my as a startup type company I think this would be a mistake to tackle too early. I was interested to read the NY rules....part of my motivation for building the 870 adapter was that pump action shotguns are some of the least regulated type firearms here in Canada as well.

Dr. Rob: I would love to get one of my test guns some screen time. It is something that I have not pursued at all, however something I am very interested in. That being a wold I know so little about, do you have any suggestions on where to start?

Others: I apologize for making you question your respective religions ( ;) ), I too have succumbed to the seductive ways of and a tempestuous relationship with my 12 gauge siren. She certainly has a way of demanding attention.

Thanks so much for your collective encouragement....

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Some progress to report: I received an e-mail/progress report from the foundrey today. They have cast some of the quality control units and need to modify the master die slightly to bring some of the dimensions into spec as well as add another plug (the hole for the mounting bolt).

http://www.coyotecanada.ca/870_cqb_stock/argonaut/pics/tool004.gif

While this might delay commercial delivery a bit, I don't find it disappointing as the quality of the production pieces is going to be extremely high and this is in my opinion more important than hurrying to market.

Take care!

BrobeeBiter

[Preacherman]

BBBiter, I strongly agree. Get it right, and you'll have many satisfied customers (including me! :D ), and lots of enthusiastic referrals and repeat business. Get it wrong, or sloppily finished, and you'll get nowhere. I'm looking forward to trying one out!

[2nd Amendment]

BBB, rather than go back thru this entire thread I'll just ask if you are taking email addys/orders at this point? Not cash or Pymts, just contact addys for when your first units become available. If so then I'll send ya a mail. I want on the list. :)

[TechBrute]

Any idea on the cost?

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

2nd Amendment: I am maintaining a *reserved list* of people who are interested in purchasing an adapter. If you would like to get on the list, send me an e-mail to jason@argonautarmament.com and I will make that happen. The stage I'm at in the production process is working out the last little quality control kinks in the casting process. Once I approve the master mold/process, I will begin taking orders. People on the reserved list will have three weeks to take advantage of their "first dibs" status.

TechBrute: Pricing is slowly firming up: the stock adapter (just the adapter with no pistol grip or stock) is going to be $99.00 US. I still have a little work to do to firm up pricing for the rails, however I have some targets/preliminary numbers. The rear rail adapter will be approximately $25.00 US, and a receiver length rail will be approximately $45.00 US.

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

[Preacherman]

BBB, one question comes to mind. The AR-15/M16 collapsible stock was, I presume, engineered to withstand the relatively mild recoil of a .223/5.56mm. cartridge. How have your test units stood up to the much greater impact of 12ga. recoil? Have you strengthened them at all? Do they remain locked in position, or do they sometimes "collapse" themselves under recoil?

[BrobeeBiter]

Preacherman: Initially I was pretty worried about the durability of the aluminum indexing holes and the steel pin that locks the stock in place on the buffer tube. I now have over 3000 rounds of slug and buck through my two test guns and have never had the stock collapse. I've been frequently inspecting the indexing holes for signs of plastic deformation, and there is none.

Based on my personal experience with my test guns, it is my opinion that a properly maintained stock should be able to stand the pounding no problem. Careful readers will have picked up on the attached condition of proper maintenance, and I believe this is important. I have seen some telescoping stocks on AR15's collapse and all have been a result of improperly tightened fasteners on the stock lock pin mechanism. I check mine every time I clean the gun.

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

[Blain]

Isn't that gun like this one??

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=10845966

http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2003-03-09/Vito_1047761417_fn-1.JPG


http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2003-03-09/Vito_1047761420_fn-4.JPG

http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2003-03-09/Vito_1047761418_fn-2.JPG

[Gewehr98]

Did you happen to take a look at the first page of this thread? There's a picture, about 2/3rds of the way down, posted by Cameron Lamont, formerly known here as HS/LD, patron of the Church of the Winchester 1300 Defender. ;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

Isn't that gun like this one??


No, its considerably better.

[Sir Galahad]

How is it "considerably better", Andrew?

[dport]

Read the entire post. BBB goes over the advantages and disadvantages of his system over the FN gun. Then make up your own mind if it is considerably better.

[hksw]

You know, clicking on this thread every time it comes up in the Shotgun section really isn't helping me and is going to hurt me financially. The more I look at the pics, the more I'm liking it. Not really a fan or hater of 870s but this is making me consider.

[BluesBear]

Would it be possib;e to make one of these for the Mossberg? I know the Mossberg's have a the top mounted safety, but couldn't you just lower the position of the attachment point?

If the center line of the buffer tube was on axis with the magazine tube instead of the barrel you could still access the safety and use the original sights.

[Andrew Wyatt]

i think that in a mossberg adaptor, no compromises should be made, and instead, the adaptor should have a trigger blocking safety, like the SKS.

[Gewehr98]

Haven't heard from ya in a bit, BrobeeBiter...

[TechBrute]

These people seem to have the same idea, however they want twice as much, it seems...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=61&t=141105

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Gewehr98: My apologies for no updates in a while...I've been really busy and progress on the adapter is happening, albeit at a slower rate than I might like. The foundry has cast what I hope will be the last bunch of quality control adapters and is heat treating them prior to final machining right now. I expect to receive a casting in the mail next week for dimensional checking while they do the machine work to the rest. I've also been dealing with a little bit of excitement over on AR15.com, making the rounds of some local 3 gun matches around my neck of the woods, and preparing some promotional material to send down to the SWAT magazine annual 3 gun championship.

For those reading, I have been maintaining a similar thread pertaining to the development of the stock adapter over on the armoury board of AR15.com. This thread has recently been locked due to my violation of some advertising policies. There are some political nuances to what has been happening over there, but by and large they are in the right. It does suck for me though as these internet forums are a great vehicle to solicit feedback and keep people abreat of the progress of the development initiative. In the mean time, I've created a *news* page on my website (www.argonautarmament.com (http://www.argonautarmament.com)) which I will be using as a poor substitute to post frequent updates and photographs.

The High Road Moderators: Forum participation has been extremely important and valuable to me in the development of my fledgling first product. I really hope to avoid here at the the HighRoad.org what has happened on AR15.com...if you could offer some guidelines as to what how far into the ethical grey areas I might be with repect to commercialization of the adapter and my participation on the high road, I would be sincerely grateful.

BluesBear: I'm thinking hard about the Mossberg, however my reality is that I cannot affoard to pursue the development work until the 870 adapter has enjoyed a some commercial success.

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[Acolyte]

This is great! I know what I'm getting in my Christmas stocking this year! :)

[Variable1]

WOW!

I really like the design of both your stock adapter and rail. Does the rear adapter allow the use of ANY ar15 stock. Wondering if an A2/A1 would fit?

I also sent you an email tonight. Look foward to hearing from you.

Thanks
Adam

[BrobeeBiter]

Hi all!

Variable1: The Argonaut stock adapter has been designed for use with telescoping type stocks only. This was done intentionally in the design process and relates to the height of an 870 receiver being not as high as an AR15 lower. As such, we've eliminated the lower hole for the lock ring from the rear geometry of our adapter. In order to acommodate this one would have to lower the grip in relation to the trigger as well as modify the relational geometry of the stock adapter significantly. Both ACE and Cav Arms have done this with their adapters, however it was our opinion that there were some significant advantages to our geometry that warrented sacrificing the ability to use a regular fixed style AR stock.

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[edited to add] Progress report: Yesterday the foundry shipped a couple of test castings to me for dimensional checking...others are in their machine shop for the final threading of holes. I should receive the test units within the next couple of days and will post photographs when it happens!

[TechBrute]

So these are cast, not forged?

Also, are we still looking at around $99?

Will these work with ALL Remington 870s?

Will they be offered in different finishes, or unfinished, as well?

Do we have any expected dates?

Any discounts for "testers"? :D

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Progress Report:

The foundry shipped a sample from the latest iteration of dimensional quality control castings and it arrived yesterday!

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/casting_prototype_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/casting_prototype_II.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/casting_prototype_slug_gun.jpg

Tolerances are excellent and exceed even my wildest expectations. The foundry is currently machining for QC approval some from the same casting lot and these are expected to ship late this week. Once that has happened, barring no surprises the main production run will start immediately after!

The crappy part? Now I have to get higher rings for my slug gun, move the scope forwards, and go re-sight in before open deer season opens. *sigh...:)

TechBrute: They are cast from a 7000 series aluminum and then heat treated for hardness before final machining and threading. This was the only way I could keep the retail price at or under $100US. They will fit on any 12 gauge Remington 870 (I have successfully tried them on a Norinco clone, an 870 express, a police, a marine magnum, and several wingmasters of different vintages). I do not know if the receivers of the 16 or 20 gauge 870s are the same dimensions as the 12...perhaps someone might be able to comment? I am planning on finishing the first batch with a matte black polyester based powder coating or black GunKote. Other finishes may be available by special request. Dates: I'm just waiting to sign off on the machining process (expecting the test pieces to be sent late this week) before the main production run starts. It is looking like early to mid October before I will be able to start shipping orders. I'm a little embarrased about perpetually bumping the timing back, however it is important to me to work out all the details in the manufacturing process such that I can deliver what I believe to be a high quality product. Your patience is appreciated greatly.

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[TechBrute]

Will unfinished castings be available?

[gulogulo1970]

I'll buy one at the first of the year. Good idea!

[Preacherman]

I've already picked out the shotgun that's going to get this adaptor... looking forward to the fitting and experimentation process! :D

[nonbox]

You guys should check out these shotgun stocks:

ACE SHOTGUN PRODUCTS

http://www.riflestocks.com/shotguns.html

[BrobeeBiter]

Hi All!

TechBrute: The foundry I am using is also doing the machine work and the pricing I have in place with them covers both casting and machining. I think that arrangements could be made to supply unfinished ones though...

Progress Update: The foundry shipped twenty machined test pieces...they should show up any day! After completing the machine work on the dimensional test casting I received last week, I did a little investigation/experimentation into GunKote as a possible finish. A much thinner coating than the powder coating I was originally planning on using, this now has me seriously considering going this route. I'm going to GunKote my entire slug gun this weekend and will post pictures soon.

I'd be very grateful for any collective feedback on the topic of coatings...

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[TechBrute]

I'd be very grateful for any collective feedback on the topic of coatings...

What type of aluminum is used? Is it A356T6 or 7076T6? The A356 has a high silicone content and can't be annodized like the 7076, which is aircraft grade and significantly more expensive. Gunkote is one of the better "easy" finishes for the A356 aluminum.

I'd be inclined to get an unfinished adapter and have the whole gun refinished in a non-black color. I don't think I have a tan shotgun yet... hmmm...

TechBrute: The foundry I am using is also doing the machine work and the pricing I have in place with them covers both casting and machining. I think that arrangements could be made to supply unfinished ones though...

I'm sure you wouldn't move many that way, but some people get a kick out of the machining aspect of it all.

[riverdog]

TechBrute: They are cast from a 7000 series aluminum and then heat treated for hardness before final machining and threading.

[TechBrute]

Thanks, riverdog. This thread is getting kind of long and I'm sure I've forgotten some of the stuff I've read.

7000 series aluminum is generally superior to A356 aluminum for these types of applications. It can also be anodized, which is a fairly easy process to acomplish on a small scale. Many sites on the web offer info on how to anodize things in your garage.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

The foundry delivered a shipment of quality control castings yesterday with the machining steps completed. 17 adapters were sent for quality control checking, and overall quality again was remarkable. In test fitting to several test guns (a 870 wingmaster and an 870 express), two minor issues were uncovered. The first one was that the 0.25inch 28tpi threaded hole was not tapped to full depth. This is easily remedied and will only require a phone call to take care of in future production runs.

The second issue relates to extremely tight tolerances where the adapter mates with the shotgun's trigger group. On the wingmaster, all the adapters fit with no issues. On the 870 express however, the plastic trigger guard was just so slightly wider that things were too tight and the adapter did not fit properly. With approximately 20 minutes of work, I made the appropriate modifications with removal of just the smallest amount of material and hand fit all 17 adapters to the 870 express. The permanent, long term fix to the second issue will require re-tooling of one of the plugs that make up the master precision investment mold, however I've decided to proceed for now with this mold as is and hand fit each adapter until the burden of doing so justifies the incremental expense of re-tooling.

This effectively gives the green light to the first main production run and e-mails for those on the *reserved list* will be going out shortly!

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/slug_gun_w_adapters_I.jpg

For those interested, deer season is coming up quick and while trying to stop chewing out my fingernails waiting for the quality control adapters to arrive, I've been tweeking and playing with my slug gun quite a bit. I recently acquired a rifled remington slug barrel, and am still stunned at how accurate it is when fed either sabboted or brenneki slugs! I re-finished the whole nine yards last weekend (it was pretty ugly before!) with Gun Kote, the results of which you can check out in the above photograph. I hope it wears as well as it prints!

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/slug_gun_target.jpg
(5 rounds at 50 yards.)

Techbrute: hmmm...a tan shotgun...you've got my gears turning (albeit slowly!) now! I'll save a couple of adapters from the black coating process...

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[TechBrute]

What's the status of the full length top rail?

[nonbox]

Is there an adapter with a parkerized finish to match a parkerized finish 870P?

[Onslaught]

Wow! It's AMAZING what you can miss when you're "offline" for a couple of months!

I will be resisting the urge (once they're available) to purchase any of these goodies for my Winchester Defender as I have absolutely no need for any of them... But they sure look like fun! :D

I am very fond of the AR15 telescoping stock configuration though.... And I do like to keep continuity between weapons when feasible...

See, there I go talking myself into it!

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello...

nonbox: The initial production batch will be finished with a matte black KG Gun Kote finish. It matches quite nicely with all the parkerized 870Ps that I have seen.

Techbrute: Status on the full length rail is that I am still awaiting shipment of a significant number of 20 inch picatinny rail stock. Not sure what the holdup is (I think they are waiting for enough demand to tool up and run a big bunch), but this is preventing me from hammering out my manufacturing costs and is frustrating beyond description. As a result and looking towards the future, I've called the supplier and significantly increased the number of rails I have on order to hopefully combat future iterations of this backlog. Management of this part of Argonaut's cashflow is looking to be a little more complex than originally anticipated...:(

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[Andrew Wyatt]

why don't you machine it in house? i don't think a picatinny rail is overly complex to make.

[TechBrute]

Brobee,

Will the adapters that are initially available be compatable with the full length rail?

why don't you machine it in house? i don't think a picatinny rail is overly complex to make Andrew, I agree with you, but I'm shocked as to how many picatinny rails are manufactured out of spec. I think that any product that is to be taken seriously should be manufactured within spec to ensure complete compatablility.

[BrobeeBiter]

Andrew: I've thought about machining in house, however to do justice to the rail I would need much better equipment than what I already have and this early into my business plan I can't justify tooling up to the degree that would be required. As a result, I find myself at the mercy of my ability to seek out and build relationships with those that are tooled up right and can cost effectively manufacture the picatinny blank material.

Techbrute: I too have seen many picatinny products that were not to spec. With respect to current adapters being compatible with the as-yet-to-be-manufactured full length rail system, they are 100% compatible. All of the initial adapters have been machined with threaded mounting holes intended for attechment of the full length rail hardware.

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[nonbox]

will the flat black match the 870P dark parkerized finish?

[USAFA]

Any chance you'd be willing to post pics on how you managed to mount that bayonet, and where you found the parts to mount it with.
I think I'll have to second the statement that someone else made, my wife is going to hate you ;) but my 870 is going to love it's new clothes.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Progress report: I successfully coated all the test adpaters this weekend! The main production run is underway (waiting on the foundry to communicate a delivery date), and I am frantically trying to find the time to finish the last polishing steps of my commercial internet site upgrade! Several of the recently coated adapters have homes (going to some police departments for trial), but there are going to be some precious few that wind up shipped to those first in line! This is a pretty exciting time for me, and I want to thank all of you for what has been amazing support and participation. I can't wait to start receiving feedback from those first to put the initial commercial units through their paces....:)

USAFA: I'm pretty busy with tieing up the loose ends on getting the first batch out the door, but I will take some photographs of the bayonet attachment as soon as I get a chance and post them. The bayonet was nothing more than a Cold Steel true flight thrower mounted to an aluminum angle iron bracket. The bracket has holes drilled for the knife on one plane, and on the other plane holes drilled for mounting on an ARMS dual throw lever mount. The whole apparatus then just clamps to the full length rail. The catch? It (the bayonet, not the rail) only works on a 14 inch barrelled gun.

Nonbox: The flat black finish will fairly closely match the parkerized 870Ps that I have seen....but be more close to the black typically found on the back end of your standard AR15 telescoping stock/pistol grip.

(edited to add): I thought it might be appropriate to address a question posted on the recent thread (AR-style 870 shotgun (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41081) ) about my competitor's (Cav Arms) product. I'm going to post here out of respect for them and not wanting to take the wind out of their sails (and sales)...Andrew W is not my marketing director...he is one of hundreds (literally) who have participated across many different forums in similar development threads. I have never met him, however I believe he (and others) feels a strong sense of ownership in an idea that he has honestly influenced greatly, and is as excited as I am to see it initially spread it's wings. Is one better than the other? That is an extremely difficult question to answer, as I can't begin to imagine what is important to one person compared to what is important for another. There are certainly some differences in design philosophy in comparison of the two adapters, and they both have been done to address different problems. I for one am excited to see some variety, as ultimately the consumer then has more choice in an arena where previously there was none. I'll be excited to see their product succeed, as if it does then it is a pretty positive indicator that ours will as well...

Take care all...

BrobeeBiter

[nvrquit]

Brobee,

Very nicely worded commentary on your stance regarding competition, as well as the differences between your product and other competing similar products. Should this be your true opinion and feeling(and I have no reason to think otherwise), it is a healthy one and refreshing to read.

I look forward to the day when a notice is received, indicating the product can be ordered.

[BrobeeBiter]

nvrquit: Thanks for those kind wods...

I've been frantically trying to find the time to make the last little changes to my website such that commercial transactions are enabled. This is pretty frustrating for me, as with the exception of her order processing infrastructure, Argonaut is ready to spread wings and feel the breeze of the open world rather than watching from the nest. The main production run waas authorized last week and is now underway.

Photographs of the control castings in their coated states:

http://argonautarmament.com/news/coated_adapters_II.jpg
Upper right: crossover plate (designed to allow for varying tolerances in 870 receiver/trigger group materials and still have the adapter fit extremely tightly to the gun) which have been laser cut from 0.25inch steel. The white packages are more coated adapters from the same control units that are being shipped to various law enformement agencies for trial. The remaining adapters will find homes with those first to respond to the ordering process (if I can ever get it enabled!)


http://argonautarmament.com/news/coated_adapters_I.jpg
A closeup of one of the coated control castings. They have been serialized and stamped with a small maple leaf. The commercial production adapters will be available both with or without the maple leaf.

Take care All...

BrobeeBiter

[TechBrute]

The commercial production adapters will be available both with or without the maple leaf. Yeah, but can you get them with stars and stripes?:D

[BrobeeBiter]

TechBrute: :) If I can find a small metal stamp with the stars and strips, they will definitely be available stamped that way. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

BrobeeBiter

[cookhj]

brobee, are you still looking at a target price of $100-$115?

also, do you have a projected date of when you'll be selling them?

[BrobeeBiter]

cookhj: Retail is going to be $140 canadian (exchange rate today was 0.741$can/1.00$us)...that puts the price in US dollars at approximately $100.00. I'll start processing orders as soon as I get the website commerce enabled...I have intentions to finish this work this week for christening next week!

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[cookhj]

is that just the cost of the adapter, or is that the adapter and the rail?

if it's just the adapter, how much will be added for the rail?

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Well...the Argonaut's been towed out of the harbour and there's light reflecting off her sails as she catches her first breath of wind on the open sea! E-mails to those on the *reserved list* have been sent and the e-commerce component of the website has been uploaded and enabled.

While I'm hoping the destination is something akin to the new world, it's the voyage I'm most looking forwards to...

Hoping to share it with many of you!

Sincerely,

BrobeeBiter

[Variable1]

Really looks great!

BrobeeBiter, sent you an email.

I would like to say that i am really excited about receiving our first unit! Will post pics and review of unit when it arrives.

Thanks
Adam

[Brian Dale]

Ahoy, Argonaut!

Fair Winds and Following Seas, BrobeeBiter!

email sent, and thanks!

[Preacherman]

I'm in! E-mail sent.

[Kharn]

BrobeeBiter:
I believe that if an individual wishes to import over $100US worth of gun parts into the US, it must either be done in person (like driving up to Canada, picking the parts up and crossing the border back into the US) or the individual has to fill out a bunch of paperwork with the ATF to be able to do the importing through mail order.

I purchased a parts kit from Dlask of Canada about a month ago that was priced at exactly $99.99US for that reason (and there was a copy of the applicable laws in the box the kit came with, in case the customs inspectors opened it, but all the paperwork is at my parents' house so I cant post a copy at the moment).

Kharn

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Rest assured we have done a considerable amount of homework with respect to US import/export regulations and how they apply to Argonaut's castings/machined parts and accessories. When we ship, to the best of our knowledge, we are in compliance with all rules and regulations and there should be no problems with moving these castings across the border.

A large number of our first shipments are going out airmail today, and I'm looking forward to hearing feedback from those on the receiving end!

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[JShirley]

Brobee,

Just found this thread last night. Very interesting. I'm not a big fan of the M4, but it does have superior ergonomics- and I believe the stock to be a large part of that. As a stocky 66" tall man, I find that most American stocks are much too long for a good cheek weld with me. The M4 stock, one click out, is just right for me w/out body armor, and with, fully collapsed is perfect.

You have my sincere respect for your courteous comments towards your competition.

some recent discussion has been initiated on the M3 illuminator and how does not meet the muster with respect to military/heavy LE deployment.

Well. I had a SureFire mounted to my M4. When I went to Yakima Training Center a couple of months ago, I took my M3, which stayed on my M4. The M3 does not feel nearly as sturdy, and I do not feel it will hold up as well to hard use as SureFire units. Also, it was very easy to accidentally trigger the switch on my M3, and the battery was soon drained. (I have heard that newer units have a kill switch to prevent this from happening.) I feel that the M3 will probably well suit the needs of the average homeowner who wants the ability to rapidly mount a light to his defensive firearms.

John Shirley

[Variable1]

Just received my adapter this afternoon, ran inside and mounted it on the only 870 at the house.

All I can say is very nice! Fits very well, nice black finish, and the ergonomics are WAY better! I have always has a hard time with my shotties having a LOP way to long. I have used shorter stocks, but prefer the pistol grips. Very hard to find a short stock with a pistol grip.

The angle on the pistol grip feels perfect! I will have to try an ergo and a Battlegrip on there later.

http://www.jamdreams.com/midwest/870adapter1.jpg
http://www.jamdreams.com/midwest/870adapter2.jpg

Still need a couple other parts, but this is going to make a great social gun.

Email at you Brobeebiter! So when are those rails going to be available?

:neener:

[Brian Dale]

Hooray!!! :D You've posted the first one. I hope we'll see a lot of reviews of this at THR.

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Testing Update: A local range ran a SigAcadamy Basic Shotgun course this past weekend, and while I was not participating (I took the course last year and while I really really wanted to participate again, it was suggested by people wiser than myeslf that the money might be better spent upgrading my shooting education with a different course), an 870 marine magnum was equipped with the AR15/870 Stock adapter, a receiver length rail from GG&G, and an Aimpoint was fielded by one of the course participants. Round count consisted of 75 rounds of slug, 75 rounds of 00 buck, and 100 rounds of birdshot.

As a slight diversion from the topic of the adapter, this course is EXCELLENT. Due to an extremely high round count, it is also a torture test for your 12 gauge (shotguns were breaking left right and center) and will definately unveil whether or not you have the mechanical kinks worked out of your pump gun or semi in addition to any handling techiques you may posess that make you more prone to any number of different mechanical stoppages. It is also a sound introduction/complete immersion into the operation of the shotgun and in my opinion provides a significant foundation upon which to build some serious tactical shotgunning skills. Improvements had been made in the target handling capacity of the range since I had taken the course as well...where I had shot almost all paper targets that required constant repair under the insult of 122 gauge annumition, reactive steel targets were employed this time around. A thourough and highly effective immersion in the world of the tactical 12 gauge that earns high marks with the Brobee.

Back to the topic at hand: the 870 marine magnum equipped with the Brobee adapter. Part of the course involves a stoppage clearing drill intended to clear a double feed on the 870. The drill is performed by striking at a 45 degree angle the butt of the shotgun against the ground with a considerable amount of force. When performed on the M4-style stock equipped shotgun, the plastic stock cracked (no visible deformation to the locking pin or holes machined in the buffer tube). The operator of the gun found himself quite surprised to find his aimpoint inches away from his face as the stock collapsed immediately afterwards under fire and reported increased, but not unmanagable recoil, however he cowboyed up and shot the remainder of the course of fire with the stock completely collaped (and did quite well accuracy wise if one is to believe what is around here quickly becoming urban-superheroesque-caliber legend!)

I'll take some photographs of the damaged stock and post them for all to see. It is probably relevant to note that two wooden stocks on other guns were cracked under the same drill (one on an 870 and another on a mossberg). I'm curious to see whether increasing the angle of the strike to 90 degrees still effectively clears the stoppage, as I'm currently speculating that on an AR15 stock equipped shotgun the 45 degree angle of the drill's current butt strike focuses force on the stock in a that might be avoided with some slight modification to the technique. I will be looking for a crappy stock to test the theory...

Images of the marine magnum equipped with an AR15-870 CQB Stock Adapter, a GG&G piece of picatinny rail, and an Aimpoint CompML2 with a GG&G canteliver mount:

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/marine_magnum_rlr_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/marine_magnum_rlr_II.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/marine_magnum_rlr_III.jpg

Participants of the SigArms Basic Tactical Shotgun Course:

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/sigarms_shotgun_course.jpg


I'll get some photographs of the broken stock up later...

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Progress Report (it's been a while!): The UPS truck showed up yesterday, and dropped off a large, heavy box. While moving it out to the workshop, I came to the conclusion that I need to finish landscaping in the yard. This thought occured to me while my body went horizontal and was re-enforced when I landed flat on my back and then once again when the box landed on me. I lay there for a moment, appreciating the deep blue of the evening sky, the minus 30 degree (C) weather, and the crispness of the snow as the latter two were sure to counter the effects of impending bruising if I lay there long enough. I could hear the laughter from inside the house...:( The wet nose of a concerned dog was the motivation to get up. At least now I know who my friends are!

Well...any feelings of bruised ego (the physical bruises will eventually heal!) dissapeared when I managed to drag myself into the shop and got that box opened. Woohoo! Adapters Galore. I'll be coating them this weekend, and should be able to start shipping again next week. I have a large number of backorders, however there should be plenty of adapters left over.

While I'm coating the adapters, I'll also coat the receiver length rails that I have finished thus far.

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/2nd_shipment_arrives_uncoated_I.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/2nd_shipment_arrives_uncoated_II.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/2nd_shipment_arrives_uncoated_III.jpg

http://www.argonautarmament.com/news/2nd_shipment_arrives_uncoated_IV.jpg

Take care,

Brobee

[Badger Arms]

Would one be available serialized to my gun? Is the dog for sale?

[Andrew Wyatt]

DO they come in coyote?

Can i get one with PALS?

[TechBrute]

DO they come in coyote?

Can i get one with PALS?


Hehehe... wrong thread Andrew. This isn't Lightfighter...:D

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

Badger Arms: :)...I could certainly serialize one to match your gun, however the dog is not for sale (how could I sell my recently demonstrated only true friend?)

AndrewW: PALS?

Progress Report: Coating is done and we are shipping! Woohoo!

Take care,

BrobeeBiter

[Mute]

Along these lines, has anyone had a chance to check these out yet?


http://www.cavalryarms.com/SST-870.html

[BluesBear]

Major resurrection here, but does anyone have an update on this project?

Are they still available and has any further research been done?

[natedog]

I believe they are shipping now. I've tried a pre-production one on Andrew Wyatts Mossberg. Seemed pretty slick, except that the rail made it almost impossible to reach the safety, and the M-4 stock is not ideal at all for shotgun shooting.

[BluesBear]

I didn't think they'd fit on a Mossberg?

Wasn't the trigger reach a little long? The receiver of the Mossberg extends more rearward of the triggerguard than the Remington does.

AR-15 stocks seem to be all the rage right now but Brobee's system looks to be the most solid.

I think one with a lower mounting position more inline with the magazine tube than the barrel, so you could use the regular shotgun sights would be a hot seller. I have only actually held one that allowed that, but the stock was mounted witrh a traditional downward angle so the D@C/D@H changed as you moved the stock. I didn't think much of that idea but the guy said he was selling them as fast as he could get them.

Hells Bells™, just paint it black and call it testic.. er, um, I mean, tacticle and there are enough suckers to stand in line for it.

[Mesa Tactical]

In about mid-January we will begin shipping a version of our Mossberg stock kits in which the rail is screwed into the receiver using the tapped holes found on most late-model Mossberg 500s. This should make it a lot easier to get to the safety switch.

Also, Quake Industries make a plastic replacement safety switch that sticks out to the the side.

Finally, an informal survey of our Mossberg-toting customers reveals that most of theme simply do not use the safety anyway. The Mossberg safety is poorly located for use with pistol grips in any case, with or without a rail.

Regarding stock elevation, in the spring of 2005 we will introduce what we call the Low-tube adapter, which lowers the stock elevation an inch:

http://www.mesatactical.com/news/images/low-tube_mossberg.jpg

[BluesBear]

That's what I had in mind a few years ago.

I am hoping that the stock on the prototype MesaTactical unit only appears to be slightly askewed at an upward angle because of the wide angle lens on the camera.

[msfitoy]

Hello...just found this thread and it appears that I'm late to the party...has Argonaut Armament gone out of business? I can't find this adapter anywhere on the web except here...

[Wanta B]

Hey all!
I too just ran across this thread and am VERY iterested in this adapter...anyone know where to get them? Been looking for two days now:banghead:

[SoCalShooter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:XM26_2_highRes.jpg

Yes you can get one of these.