Wolf Ammo in Iraq?


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Bluehawk
May 6, 2007, 09:09 AM
It's been stated many times the prices of Wolf ammo has gone up
severely the past several years because of shortages of small arms
ammo for our Iraqi allies. Come to find out our military doesn't
supply 7.62x39mm ammo to them and we don't use Wolf or any other
Russian ammo maker for ammo over there. Here is a short excerpt from an
article concerning our ammo shortage from a military newsletter::

When supplies (from Lake City Army Ammo Plant in Independence, MO)
were drawn down quickly last year, (2005) the Army had to turn to
foreign suppliers to make "urgent buys."
That ammunition was supplied by Poongsan Metals Corp.(PMC) in South
Korea, Israeli Military Industries, SNC of Canada and the Winchester
division of Olin Corp. in East Alton, Ill. Rider said Israeli rounds
have been used for training in the U.S. but not in Iraq, where the
ammunition's origin might create political problems with Iraqi
citizens.
I strongly suspect the price increases we have been subjected to are
on the part of the distributor/wholesalers and the dealers simply to
line their pockets. The next time one of them tells you it's because
of the war in Iraq I suggest you find another supplier.
The excuse of metal prices have skyrocketed doesn't hold much water
either because if you will notice American ammo prices haven't risen
all that sharply in contrast to the sharp increase of Russian ammo. If
metal prices were so high why can we still buy
Winchester...Remington...etc, bullets in bulk fairly cheaply??
This is the same nonsense we went through years ago when powder prices
doubled. I spoke to the President of Accurate Arms Powders a number of
years back when the retail price went way up. He informed me his
company had not raised prices more than 10 percent in many years and
that the increase we were seeing was on the part of the distributors.
As many of you may remember AA powders were about half the price per
pound than those of other popular brands. :fire:
::steps down off his soap box::

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jpk1md
May 6, 2007, 09:25 AM
Just like the Oil/Fuel Industry the Ammo Companies will charge whatever the market will bear.

At some point it will likely become lucrative enough that a new player will enter the market, bring total volume of avail production up to a point where prices will stabilize at a lower level as each of the suppliers jockey for market share.

Simple supply and demand but its going to take several years to stabilize.

answerguy
May 6, 2007, 09:30 AM
Are you thinking that if Wolf ammo isn't being used in the Iraq war that the price of Wolf ammo shouldn't be affected here in the US? it doesn't work that way.

jpk1md
May 6, 2007, 09:41 AM
No, simply that the ammo market is truly a global market and as manufacturing capacity increases past demand price will come down.

Has nothing to do with Iraq per say only that there is increased global demand. It doesn't matter WHERE a particular manufacturers ammo is being consumed, only that a portion of the global commercial manufacturing capacity IS being consumed that normally would not be that is causing increases in price.

Consider a fictional situation:

The world came to its senses and every country adopted its own version of the 2A.

There would be a LOT more people out there practicing and having fun......that would increase demand and at least at first there would not be enough capacity to satisfy.

Businesses would soon realize the opportunity for profit and set up new/additional manufacturing capacity....this takes time but eventually as supply increases price will come down.....in the meantime price will go as high as the market will bear.

Why do you think we are seeing more ammo from Prvi come into the US than ever before particularly in 308 and in BP's no less....its because there is adequate demand becuase Fed and Win are busy filling other obligations and the Surplus market has largely dried up.

Bluehawk
May 6, 2007, 07:34 PM
Why do you think we are seeing more ammo from Prvi come into the US than ever before particularly in 308 and in BP's no less....its because there is adequate demand becuase Fed and Win are busy filling other obligations and the Surplus market has largely dried up.

Who is Federal supplying to? Not the US military! Privi Partisan ammo has been on the US market for a good number of years and sells well because normally it's much cheaper than domestic ammo...or used to be cheaper.
One of Wolfs' lines of rifle ammo is made by Privi!
Olin/Winchesters' contract was temporary until another Govt ammo facility could get up and running to supplement Lake Citys' output so I imagine Olin no longer is making ammo for the military.
As to the why we are seeing more of Privi (I don't know that we are seeing "more") it would be most likely importers are getting good prices on it!!!!

Nomad, 2nd
May 6, 2007, 08:13 PM
The Marines have handed me a AK to train with and the ammo they gave me was Wolf.

This was not in Iraq.

That is all I know.

cheygriz
May 6, 2007, 08:58 PM
The excuse of metal prices have skyrocketed doesn't hold much water
either because if you will notice American ammo prices haven't risen
all that sharply in contrast to the sharp increase of Russian ammo. If
metal prices were so high why can we still buy
Winchester...Remington...etc, bullets in bulk fairly cheaply??

I would suggest you check the bulk dealers. Two years ago, I was buying Remington 9MM 115 gr FMJ bullets in lots of 5000 for $38/thousand. Today, I pay$65/thousand from the same dealers.

Also, check www.cnbc.com and click on the commodities market. Look at current prices and 5 year history charts. Or just ask your local commodities broker.

jpk1md
May 6, 2007, 09:27 PM
Bluehawk, you're missing my point.

I was not trying to explain where each and every vendors inventory is going...rather only that it is going somewhere....ie DEMAND has outstripped SUPPLY which in part explains the increase in cost and why different organizations/retailers are obtaining product from non-traditional sources and/or in quantities from others that they were never forced to buy before.

WRT Prvi...I personally have never seen sealed BP's of 308 Win from them before and have never seen .223 from them before this year.

Consider this while looking at ammoman.com, ammunitiontogo.com, the-armory.com, and any six more of your favorite vendors and look at what .223 they have in stock for under .65/rnd and what .308/7.63 they have in stock for under 1.00/rnd....you MIGHT have one, possibly two choices where at this time last year you had a choice not only of Am Eagle Red, Win Q3131, Fed but also Radway Green, Argentine, Venezuelan, South African BP's, Port etc etc etc and we all considered .25/rnd to be expensive!

Currently the US Military is purchasing ammo from other sources because they do NOT want to dip into the 1 BILLION rnd pool (1 year supply) that they stash away for a rainy day.

The US Gov OFFICIALLY (as of several months ago) had contracted to purchase ammo from Britain (RG) and also were getting some from Isreal (not for use in sandbox for political reasons) in order to get them over the hump until a supplemental manufacturing facility could be brought online to help the LC Facility.

I personally have not heard whether or not that facility is online yet.

WRT to Wolf or any other ammo...it doesn't really matter WHAT ammo the US Gov is using in its guns only that it has not been able to keep up with supply using domestic production. I personally would not flinch to hear .gov using Wolf...who cares...its ammo...a disposable commodity.

I personally find it disturbing and short sighted that we have the vast majority of our ammo production situated in a single facility (ie Single Point of Failure/target for a terrorist) instead of distributing an industry that is critical to national security to several different facilities across the country...Ideally something like, NW, SW, NE, SE and Heartland facilities to prevent catastrophic impact of one of these facilities going offline for whatever reason....very shortsighted....

RockyMtnTactical
May 6, 2007, 10:34 PM
The WOT is only one reason for price increases with ammo.

Prices have been raising on metals, oil prices are rising (which affects EVERYTHING), demand is up (not just in Iraq, also here in the states).

There's a lot that factors into it... The demand for ammo is greater than the supply, it's as simple as that...

Bluehawk
May 7, 2007, 01:55 AM
Two years ago, I was buying Remington 9MM 115 gr FMJ bullets in lots of 5000 for $38/thousand. Today, I pay$65/thousand from the same dealers.

Chey
Who were you buying from two years ago at those prices? As for todays prices I know Midway beats your current price by several dollars! Winchesters 115 grain FMJ is about $57 per 1,000 in lots of 4,000. They did have free shipping on lots of 4,000 but they are saying they are out with no back order available but you can buy in lots of 2,000 x 2 at the above price but I guess they will charge you shipping.

Prince Yamato
May 7, 2007, 02:01 AM
It's been stated many times the prices of Wolf ammo has gone up
severely the past several years because of shortages of small arms
ammo for our Iraqi allies. Come to find out our military doesn't
supply 7.62x39mm ammo to them and we don't use Wolf or any other
Russian ammo maker for ammo over there.

Yeah, but it makes a great excuse to jack up ammo prices. 7.62x39 is in such abundance, to even suggest that we'd be running low or out is pure garbage. Some people have caught onto this. Also, keep in mind that half of what Wolf sells is hollow-point, which wouldn't be used by NATO troops anyway because it'd be in violation of the Geneva Convention.

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