Is this possible? Or even legal?


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zero_chances
May 6, 2007, 10:32 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while now.

Would adapting the trigger group from an electric paintball marker to a firearm receiver be legal? I have never seen a firearm with an electronic trigger. A high rate of fire would be obtainable but it would still be semi-automatic because you would be pulling the trigger each and every time. Also, this could work well for target shooting because of the very light trigger pull. The mechanics of an electric paintball marker and a firearm are about the same. But instead of using a spring to drive the hammer, these use an air valve and piston. Maybe, just maybe, an electro-magnet could be substituted for the air piston and valve if it was strong enough to set off the softer primers.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_fall2003.web.dir/Ian_Dixon/images/aab.jpg

website further explaining paintball markers

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_fall2003.web.dir/Ian_Dixon/electric.htm

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Special_K
May 6, 2007, 10:50 PM
I have always wanted to take a 10/22 and do this to it!!
The problem being is that there are modes that allow three round burst and fully auto. Even ramping in some of the boards.

The best way to do it would to get a 4 way valve, a 3.5 oz Co2 bottle, and a clippard ram. Hose it all together, adjust the trigger and go to town!

If it is thought to be legal I might try this one this summer and have a pneumatic trigger on a ruger.

zero_chances
May 6, 2007, 10:54 PM
I am glad i am not the only one who has thought about this. The ramping/bursts is the only reason why i would presume this to be even considered to be illegal. But if you used an older or cheap gun that doesnt have ramping or burst modes, then all should be good to go. And the things are durable as anything. I have seen them thrown, sumbersed in water, shot with paintballs, and they still work fine.

Shadow Shock
May 6, 2007, 10:55 PM
I have a paintball team and to "walk the trigger" as they say to achieve speeds of up to 40 rounds per second (in a $1500 gun) requires you to remove your hand from the grip and hold the gun with your nonfiring hand. this is not condictive to accuracy, not to mention not very controllable in a real gun (especially like a .308 or bigger). I'm more of a sniper ant take single shots, but even I can get almost 30 rounds per second on a decent gun. What's the point of emptying your whole magazine in under 1 second? and true, you can tune the trigger to make it riddicuously light, but it often causes accidental discharges because you can literally blow hard on the trigger and it will fire. Not to mention, a gunsmith would have to be pretty skilled to make a working gun with an electronic paintball gun trigger

Ned Flangers
May 6, 2007, 10:59 PM
I have thought about this too!
I pondered the double trigger mechanism in a purely mechanical sense thogh.
But, after reading your post, why not tap off the gas from the fired round into a reservoir to supply the pnuematic action to the trigger?!!!!

The Unknown User
May 6, 2007, 10:59 PM
For the sake of allowing paintball to grow as a competitive sport and not give politicians more ammunition to use against it, I'd say not to try it.

SDC
May 6, 2007, 11:00 PM
Since ATF ruled the Akins Accelerator to be a full-auto, I'm sure this would fall into the same category.

zero_chances
May 6, 2007, 11:01 PM
I am familliar with walking the trigger and the rate of fire that can be reached. I had a friend who could get his Angel Speed over 40 bps fairly easily. But you did make a good point with the accidental discharges. But why would I want this? Same reason any civilian would legally by a MG or SBS.

Special_K
May 6, 2007, 11:04 PM
From my understanding the atkins accelerator used the recoil of the firearm to push the receiver back into the stock and then when it came forward again this would cause the trigger to strike the finger again starting the cycle.

The idea is to take regulated air and push a ram back and forth to push on the sear.

The idea of using a ram to trip a sear isn't exactly a paintball thing either. In fact there are very few true pneumatic triggers out there. Lots of electronic triggers but few pneumatic ones.

That being said, if you have a 1 mm pull that is practically nothing I'm sure you could fire a firearm at a rate of at least 8-10 rounds per second and still be semi-auto.


Personally, I like the idea because I have most of the parts and its a cheaper route than getting an aftermarket trigger for something like the ruger.

edit: In this position I Think we should be talking about pneumatic triggers and not electronic ones. The pneumatic ones are not as picky and do not require batteries.

zero_chances
May 6, 2007, 11:05 PM
Since ATF ruled the Akins Accelerator to be a full-auto, I'm sure this would fall into the same category.

But with the AA, you pull the trigger once, and your finger stays stationary as the gun moves and fires again. Thats the difference here, your finger would be moving to pull the trigger each and every time.



I pondered the double trigger mechanism in a purely mechanical sense thogh.

I have also wondered why there are no double triggered firearms. I find them quite comfortable.

Special_K
May 6, 2007, 11:08 PM
A double trigger isn't a good thing for accuracy. If your moving your fingers back and forth like that it would be wildly inaccurate. (Well, at least as firearms go.)

The Deer Hunter
May 6, 2007, 11:09 PM
Remington made a target rifle with an electronic ignition. I think you can find it in the special runs section.

I guess it never really took off.

zero_chances
May 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
Remington made a target rifle with an electronic ignition. I think you can find it in the special runs section.

I guess it never really took off.
__________________

Are you talking about this?

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/special_runs/past_special_runs/model_700_etronX.asp

Model 700 EtronX
It says that it used ammunition that has an electrically responsive primer. So maybe that ammo is hard to find or expensive. Or it was the 2,000 dollar price tag of the rifle. Seems like it had some good features though.

heron
May 6, 2007, 11:16 PM
I thought I read someplace of target rifles with electric triggers . . . long time back.

Ooops, never mind.

The Deer Hunter
May 6, 2007, 11:19 PM
Are you talking about this?

http://www.remington.com/products/fi...700_etronX.asp

Model 700 EtronX
It says that it used ammunition that has an electrically responsive primer. So maybe that ammo is hard to find or expensive. Or it was the 2,000 dollar price tag of the rifle. Seems like it had some good features though.\

Yes thats it.

CypherNinja
May 6, 2007, 11:20 PM
Electronic triggers are a no-no according to the BATFE.

Too easy to convert to full-auto.

There are probably allowances made for honest-to-God single shots, I seem to remember Hammerli 160 and 162's having electronic triggers.

The Deer Hunter
May 6, 2007, 11:27 PM
we used to be able to delete our own posts...

HeXeD775
May 6, 2007, 11:43 PM
Check this out, it was highlighted on "FutureWeapons". It's called Metal Storm...stacked ammunition, fired electronically. no moving parts, if you go to the link below it will take you to their web sites with video. They literally stack multiple projectiles on top of another in each tube. The electric charge fires the entire stack & multiple rounds toward the target.

http://www.metalstorm.com/

I think that the electro paintball trigger thing has been in alot of out thoughts but i have to say the more you pull the trigger the less accurate. It would alost have to be designed just to keep heads down, your full autos already do that. as far as an electro fired competition rifle it would really cut down on motion of the trigger pull itself.

CNYCacher
May 7, 2007, 12:43 AM
You paintball guys need to get off the idea of incorporating pneumatics into the design. Go purely electrical with a low-draw solenoid to operate the sear and you are good to go.

Can't wait for ATF to declare the 555 chip a machine gun :)

RE: MetalStorm;
The electric charge fires the entire stack

Not quite. The electrical charge fires the top round in the stack. The expanding gases from that charge compress the charge below it, which causes it to make contact with the electric rails in the tube, and gets it ready for the next electric pulse. Rapid fire is by a series of pulses into the tube. Rediculous rates of fire achieved by strapping a bunch of tubes together on one firing computer. I think they can go above 1,000,000 rounds per minute (for a very short time).

Jim Watson
May 7, 2007, 01:04 AM
Yes, but have they ever explained how to reload it?
Most likely just replace with a pre-loaded barrel bundle, it is just the taxpayer's money.

Special_K
May 7, 2007, 01:55 AM
I can't imagine something like metal storm can be that accurate.
With rounds stacked like they are the first round has a considerably shorter barrel than the last. differing velocities sending rounds everywhere downrange!


As far as going purely electronic? I think that Co2 is cheaper than batteries and also more reliable! You have never had to deal with a P.O.S. electronic frame on the fritz. The worst thing that can happen with a pneumatic system is that the most that can go wrong is an O-ring or a Hose which is not likely!

The 3.5 ounce tank can fit in the buttstock (It would stick out slightly on both sides) but I don't foresee any problems with it!

HiroProX
May 7, 2007, 02:03 AM
Actually going purely electric isn't that far out of the question.

See also Remington's EtronX rifles.

Special_K
May 7, 2007, 02:06 AM
No, it isn't. But if you want to pay for special primers and an expensive ignition system be my guest.

230RN
May 7, 2007, 02:39 AM
CNYCacher wisecracked thusly:

Can't wait for ATF to declare the 555 chip a machine gun

ROFL

It's almost midnight and I think my uproarious guffawing woke up my neighbors.

That was a good one!

-- 230RN wd0xxx.

-------------
For reference/background purposes:

http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg

http://www.disam.upm.es/cybertech/Docs/General/NE555.PDF

MattC
May 7, 2007, 03:13 AM
Please listen to Rob's concern over legal attention. I had a hell of a time being able to advertise for the paintball club on campus for awhile until I convinced them that paintball markers really aren't firearms, and so did not fall under the ban on depicting firearms in any postings on campus.

But, as pointed out above, yes it's possible. No it's not advisable. If you put any electronic paintball grip on it, no matter what chip you use or how successfully it works, paintball markers will become highly restricted within a year as the Brady Bunch et al. perverts the issue and begins screaming that children can make fully auto machine guns. "Think of the children and enact common sense, reasonable laws!"

p.s.--40 bps unassisted is utter BS. Human fingers, no matter how great a drummer your friend might have been or whatever else he did to "work up" his fingers, cannot move that quickly. Trigger bounce on the Angel was more likely the case.

TexasRifleman
May 7, 2007, 09:27 AM
Electronic triggers are a no-no according to the BATFE.

I'd like to see where you find this document.

As shown, there have been major manufacturers trying electronic triggers; see the link above for the Remington Etron.

Electronic triggers in and of themselves are clearly legal.

AntiqueCollector
May 7, 2007, 09:35 AM
BATFE says on their site adding an electric motor to a gatling gun might make it a machine gun. It doesn't apply to either hand cranked gatling guns or electronic triggers in general.

CypherNinja
May 7, 2007, 12:50 PM
I don't have enough time to dig anything up right now, but I'm VERY sure that any sort of electronic trigger on a semi-auto falls under the "readily convertible" guidelines.

And even if it wasn't, if the BATFE ever heard of someone actually doing it, it would take all of two seconds for them to decide it was and arrest the guy.

All the manually operated stuff should be fine (bolt actions, break actions, falling blocks, etc.), but then again shoelaces and open-bolt single shots are machine guns according to the BATFE.

EZ CZ75
May 7, 2007, 01:42 PM
It looks like the words "semi-auto" might be the clinchers in this topic. I, personally, can't see why an electronic trigger couldn't be used in a semi-auto when they are already incorporated into the Etronx.

Besides the high price tag, the Etronx also floundered because of the new idea. We have become so accustomed to the "mechanics" of a firing system that trying to turn it into electronics seemed rediculous to many. One reviewer of the system wrote that it was almost as rediculous as using multiple springs, levers, fulcrums, etc to fire the weapon. With a lock time that fast (99% faster) they even claim an improvement in accuracy.

I actually would like to see the electronic system incorporated into handguns. The mainspring may still be needed, though. I ain't too sure on that. I'm not a gunsmith.

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