[cslinger]

I am reasonably well versed in defensive shotguns. Most of my experience lies with pump guns but I have some semi-auto knowledge such as I understand the difference between gas and recoil operated.

I would like to start looking into a good all around Semi-Automatic 12 gauge. I do not need anything "tactical" or defensive in nature.

I want something that I can use to learn skeet/trap shooting and possibly do a little bird hunting with.

I want a nice looking and feeling gun. Something with some pride of ownership but don't want to spend too much over a grand less would be better. No $5000 engraved pieces of art work. Just a nice shotgun.

I am not brand loyal, although I do like the Browning and Beretta offerings from a purely asthetic point of view.

So talk to me. What do I need. Barrel length, chokes etc.

Thanks so much

Chris

[45auto]

I'd go with a sporting clays model of whatever auto you choose.
Chokes of skeet, ic, modified, im mod and full will handle all your clay target and hunting needs, I suspect. You might have to buy 1 or 2 to get all those. Of course, you can add as you need or not.

The sporting stock should be perfect for skeet, sporting, hunting and good enough for casual trap. If you shot trap as the main sport you may gravitate towards a higher and straighter stock.
In fact, not incommon for skeet and sporting shooters either, personal preference.

I would buy a model with either 28 or 30" bbl depending on the "feel" of that particular gun.

Hopefully, you can try before you buy.


Good luck

[TrapperReady]

If I could have only one auto for all my needs (clays, upland, waterfowl), it would definitely be a Benelli M1 or Montefeltro. I currently own a 12ga Montefeltro (28"), a 20ga M1 (26") and a 12ga Beretta 391 (30") and the Montefeltro is easily the most versatile.

While the Beretta flat-out rocks for clay games, I wouldn't want to take it in the field very often. I just spent about 5 minutes cleaning the Montefeltro, and about 20 minutes cleaning the 391. The Benelli is spotless, and the Beretta is "good enough".

Using all of them, I think that a 30" barrel (on an autoloader) is too much barrel for most hunting situations. If I was hunting more than I was shooting clays, I'd think very seriously about the 26". It weighs a little less, and gives you some more room in tight quarters.

I'd make sure to get something with 3" chambers. The 3.5" offerings can choke on light target loads, and I can come up with almost no situations where I would be at any real disadvantage with a 3" chamber.

As far as makes go, I'm biased towards the Benellis due to my experiences with thousands of clay targets and probably a couple hundred birds. I've never had a problem and the guns are still in near-mint condition.

Both Benelli and Beretta include all five standard choke tubes with their guns (C, IC, M, IM, F). That should certainly cover anything you might need. If you go with a recent Benelli 391 sporting model, they even have extended tubes which don't require a wrench. It's nice on the sporting clays course, but not as useful elsewhere.

Although others vehemently disagree, I find little difference between the recoil from a Benelli and gas-powered autoloaders. My wife is a tiny little thing, and she's currently using the Montefeltro for trap. This past weekend, we shot a LOT of targets, and swtiched guns a couple times. Neither of us found a huge difference with between the 391 and the Montefeltro. See if you can try them both. Also, we were using light target loads. Heavier hunting loads may cause a more noticable difference.

Some people like the Winchester Super X-2. Some like the Browning Gold. I don't have any personal experience with them. I've shot a couple of 1187s, and they just don't float my boat, although I do like 870s... so go figure.

Anyway, that's just my $0.02.

[HSMITH]

I have owned nearly all of the mainstream semi-auto shotguns of the last 10 years or so, and shot the rest. Of all that I have owned and shot the Winchester SuperX2 and the Beretta 390/391 have been the most pleasant to shoot. I lump the 390 and 391 together because I don't think there are any significant differences in them and the feel of both is identical to me. I would pick the X2 or the 391 over anything else on the market, and base my decision solely on what felt better in my hand. They are both under a grand easily, and the X2 will be $150-200 less than the 391. Both are gas guns, and shoot soft. I find the X2 far easier to clean than even an 870, the Beretta is a bit harder but not unreasonable.

Others to look at if my picks above just don't feel right are the Browning Gold, and the trusty 1100. Both can be difficult to keep running with less than decent maintenance habits, they just are not as forgiving as some of the other designs.

Trapper loves his Benellis, I hated mine. It is an expensive mistake to make if you don't like it, as would be any shotgun purchase that did not work out. Call around to the shooting clubs near you, you should be able to rent most shotguns to try before plunking down the hard earned cash. If you can contact some members in your area they might also be able to assist in getting all the potential shotguns in your hands for a few shots.

3" chamber vs 2.75" is non-issue for me. For any and all shooting of lead shot I prefer the 2.75" to the 3". Speed kills when shooting shotshells, and the 2.75 will be faster than a 3" due to the lighter payload in nearly all instances. Pellets must drive deeply into game to kill cleanly. More pellets at the expense of speed is a poor bargain in my experience. If waterfowling is on the agenda for your new shotgun the 3.5" chamber is a trememendous advantage, it offers the capacity for a large payload AND high velocities. It is the best of both worlds, with the only drawbacks being slightly higher initial cost for the shotgun and significant recoil when shooting the 3.5" shells. My 3.5" SuperX2 is dead reliable with 2.75" 1 ounce target loads, and sees quite a few of them when target shooting. Target shooting with your hunting gun/ hunting with your target gun is a darn good idea if you want to become more effective in the field.

I prefer a barrel that is as long as I can get it. If a 30" is made I will opt for it every time, but only because I can't get one longer. Some guys like the short barrels too. Barrel length preferences are as much about personal shooting styles as anything could be, my opinion formed over the years is that your tempo will determine what type of barrel you like. If you have a fast tempo the shorter barrels will feel better, and if your swing is a little more on the lazy side the longer barrels will feel good. Nearly all of us will shoot better with what feels right, and there is no functional difference to worry about.

Blabber mode off, hope I provided some insight that can be helpful.

[mete]

I have had a Benelli for a long time and am very happy with it . I think the best barrel length is the 24" for an all round gun , I have used it for sporting clays, and various types of hunting. . You don't sacrifice anything with the 24". Very well designed and well made.

[sm]

HSMITH - Nailed it ( as usual).

All around do everthing gun I currently use a SX1. 28" bbl with Nu-Line chokes, '74 model and I used to putat least 12-15K rds a year thru it.

Today, as much as I like the Browning's for blue and wood , I'll do a citori in o/u but not in a semi. Yes I know the same guy that did the SX1 did the Gold and SX2 just in my hands the SX2 felt/fit/performed better.

2 3/4" chambered SX2 or 390/391 with the longest bbl. Also a good used Beretta 303 is a great gun.

Longer bbls- why do HSMITH and mention this--lessens apparent lead. Hogwash on long bbls being slow getting on game/targets. I bet HSMITH will agree its jsut as fast, smooths swing, stuff falls/breaks. Hey that the idea-right?

I prefer external knurled chokes. I hate wrenches, and protects muzzle.

And of course gun fit may determine whats best for you.

Might as well get sheslinger a 20 ga while your at it...gonna have to get her one anyway...I bet she'll share...:D

[PJR]

Chris:

The question is whether you intend to be a target shooter than hunts or a hunter that shoots targets.

It sounds like you intend to shoot targets with the possibility of hunting. In that case, go with one of the gas guns. Having owned a Remington 11/87 Sporting Clays and a Beretta 390 and shot just about everything on the market, I prefer the Beretta. Soft shooting, reliable with the full range of loads and handled nicely for me. Although I shoot o/u most of the time, were I in the market for a gas gun the 391 would be my choice with the Winchester SX2 close behind.

I agree with HSMITH about barrel length and target shooting. Longer barrels help smooth out and maintain the swing. 28" would be my absolute minimum and 30" inches would be preferable. Try and handle guns in both lengths and see how they feel in your hands.

If you are a hunter that shoots targets it's hard to argue against the Benelli. They are simple, reliable with heavy loads and unphased by the elements. The downside is in my experience they kick harder than gas guns and don't handle the light target loads as well as the Beretta. I have never owned a Benelli but I sometimes think I learned the sporting clays malfunction rules waiting for Benelli owners to reshoot because they weren't using stiff enough loads.

What you intend to hunt should also affect your final decision. Barrel lengths in hunting guns tend to be shorter particularly among hunters chasing grouse in the thick stuff. A 30" semi auto is a handful to manage in the thickets but in a cornefield or duck blind it's just fine.

If for some reason I was restricted to semi auto shotguns only I would have the exact same guns as TrapperReady. If there's a perfect semi auto battery for everything, he owns it. Asked to choose only one gun for everything however it would be a Beretta 391 with a 28" barrel.

Lots of smoke here. Hope you can find some light.

Paul

[Dave McCracken]

Once upon a time....

The guys nailed it,as usual. What a group!

First shotguns shouldn't be gotten with the idea of being forever shotguns, though it works out like that sometimes.

If I were just starting out with any gas gun, I'd get a nice used 1100 for less than $400. I'd shoot it for a year, and then have a better idea of what I wanted.(Thanks to Bruce Buck for the year thing).

If I were getting a gas gun for myself, after 40 years of shotgunning, I'd probably scrimp and save up for a 391. Second choice, an 1100. Third, an X-2. The order might be changed tomorrow, but those are the three.

They are very durable,easily serviced,and aftermarket stuff like shell catchers and stocks are easy to find.

All else equal, get the one that FEELS best.

[cslinger]

Thanks for all the great advice, as usual.

As for Sheslinger, 20 gauge heck she has settled in nicely with a 12 gauge pump.

Let me migrate this topic a bit.

Based on wanted a good shotgun to learn to shoot trap/skeet with but also be able to possible hunt with, would a nice over/under be a better choice?

Do they make O/U with a 3.5 inch chamber. How durable are they compared to a pump or semi auto. I realize they cost quite a bit in comparison but what are their advantages other than they are beautiful?

Sorry to be such a pain but I know very little about sporting shotguns.

Thanks
Chris

[Dave McCracken]

O/Us are not the best choice for beginners, c. I suggest a repeater first for the basics.

IMO, a Big Four pump make a great base shotgun for your battery. A gas gun's also good, just a bit more expensive.

Once to journeyman level, then a double or six.

[cslinger]

Dave,

What's a six? Slang for SXS or side by side?

Out of curiosity why is an O/U not good for a beginner? I have shot quite a bit of shotgun it is just most of it has been through pumps with a smidgeon of semi-auto thrown in.

Thanks again.
Chris

I am really liking the feel of the Beretta Extrema. I just don't care too much for the look. I would prefer some nice wood. I have enough evil black firearms. I have a buddy with an extrema who is going to lend it to me to give it a go.

[Dave McCracken]

I should have said, a double or six of them.

Here's my take on doubles of both kinds, and this is opinion, not Universal Truth....

Good ones aren't cheap, cheap ones are rarely good. For what it costs to get a decent double, even used,one can get set up with a good repeater, with cash left over for lessons, ammo and range fees.

And, shotguns aren't universally loved by all. I'd hate to see someone blow lots of dinero on something it turns out they don't shoot well, or comfortably.

Repeaters are also easier to adjust the stocks on. Mostly, a few shims and a short session at the pattern board suffice. Doubles oft need the stock bent, this take expertise, time and cash to do right.

Also,by my using 870s for all things both for fun and for "Serious" work, practice with one carries over to all.

However, it's your money....

[HSMITH]

Slinger, that 12 gauge O/U with a 3.5" chamber is a nasty beast when shot with 3.5" shells. I have shot the Browning, and handled the Beretta (not sure if the Beretta was factory gun or a reamed chamber) with 3.5" chambers. Not fun, and nearly as bad as a pump gun with a 3.5" chamber. Unless you can consider yourself nearly recoil immune don't even try it. Buy a used 835 for $175 from someone that can't handle it (quite common) and shoot a full on turkey load through it, if you can't take the recoil sell it for $175. If you can take the recoil then consider a 3.5" O/U and use the 835 as a backup gun as it is quite a good shotgun. The 3.5" O/U is more than a standard gun and resale/trade value is less, if you buy one and don't like it the loss is substantial.

Research the Xtrema on Waterfowler.com and some of the other sites out there. It had some serious issues when introduced in quite a few of the guns out of the total number owned by posters there. The scary one was the guns that shot significantly away from point of aim for any and every shooter that tried it, and Beretta said it was "in tolerance". I have lost touch with the situation over the last year or so, but early on there were some issues. $1200 and 2 feet left at 40 yards only to be told to pack sand is a frightening prospect.

[Smoke]

While I prefer doubles for target and hunting; when its time for one of the auto feeders to come out of hiding, the one I shoot best year in and year out is Granddaddys old Browning Humpback.

I just really like that gun.

My $.02

[PJR]

The o/u (or sxs) has several advantages over a semi automatic. They are more durable in my experience and more reliable. Properly maintained they will last longer without needing parts replacement. There is a redundancy factor with two barrels (e.g. if you break a firing pin in the field you can continue hunting with your now single-shot gun).

I believe they are safer guns to use and more reassuring. They are easier to make safe and you can see from a distance if a breaking gun is safe whereas with semis it's more difficult. You can look down the chambers each time before you fire to ensure there is no barrel obstruction. They give you two choke options and, if you reload, it's a lot easier to recover your hulls. Overall length of an o/u is less with comparable barrel lengths and the manual of arms is simpler.

They have several downsides not the least of which is only two shots, good ones, as Dave noted, are comparatively expensive but they hold their value. Some of the best bargains I've discovered are used o/u as target gunners upgrade or change guns (something we do with alarming regularity ;) ).

I wouldn't buy one in 3.5" chamber length. The 3" is more than enough on the rare occasions that I need it and most of my hunting is done with 2-3/4" shells. The newer non-tox shot is a real advancement over steel even if it is more expensive. There are also more guns to choose from in the 3" chambering.

Finally, about the Extrema. I spent an afternoon with one that belongs to a friend and it had probably the foulest trigger of any gun I've ever fired. The added weight was an unwelcome trade off for the 3.5" shells. I'd go with a 391 over an Extrema.

Paul

[Sam]

Ifin I haad to use a semi auto (I'm a pump guy) I'd get me an Ithaca 51. It is sort of aa grown up 1100 with the bugs worked out. Out of production because of lousey marketing. Too bad.
My kid has been using his nonstop since about 1980. Despite everything I try to teach him, he still can't clean a gun worth snot but keeps shooting.

I do not care for any of them Italian jobs, the feel just isn't right.
1100's are OK but a little maintenance intensive and you got to keep some spare o-rings around.

A5's are as good as they get 'cept that the forends are weak, the profile is baaaad what with the hump, and I don't care for the bbl sliding back towards my face. If you can live with those an A5 is a real killer of a gun.

[Matthew Courtney]

This time of year you can usually pick up an 1100 at a pawn shop for $250-300. Try one out. Not as easy to clean as some newer guns, but very soft to shoot.

[HSMITH]

Out of 25+ shotguns owned in the last 10 or 11 years I have kept one Browning Gold 20 ga, one SuperX2 3.5", one 1100, one Red Label and one 870. Several Citori's have left, along with some other popular models. The first shotgun I bought was an 1100, it is the only shotgun from early in my shooting still here and that is for a reason. It is a darn good shotgun.

Yeah I went through a lot of change buying shotguns, but I have the ones that make me smile now. Better go look around and make sure none have slipped my mind and still live here........

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Call around to the shooting clubs near you, you should be able to rent most shotguns to try before plunking down the hard earned cash.Any in the southeastern PA area that do? (I won't even bother to ask about PRNJ.)

- pdmoderator

[frank c]

I have a winchester SX-2.This gun has preformed flawless for me.I also own a browning gold hunter, with same results.

[figment]

http://media.winchesterguns.com/pdf/om/superx2_manual_om_s.pdf might have something valid...

[chas08]

Trapper loves his Benellis, I hated mine. It is an expensive mistake to make if you don't like it,
+1 on the above. I parted ways with a sbe1. I'm back to another 1100 I bought to replace the one I sold to help finance the benelli. The upside to getting rid of the benelli was that it held its value well. Try before you buy if possible. I own four different platforms of autoloaders; Remington 1100 & 1187 Supermag, Remington SP-10, and Winchester 1400. The 1400's the softest recoiling 12 ga I've ever shot. I like them all for different reasons. There will be a Winchester Super X model 1 in my future at some point. I prefer gas operated over recoil operated guns. I take down the "gas end' and wipe it down after each outing and clean the reciever/trigger group as necessary. Which consists of once or twice a season, or if it gets a good soaking on a rainy hunt. I don't consider the o-ring in the 1100-1187 to be a weak spot whatsoever. I've never had one fail in more than 25 years of collective ownership of the two models.

[FAS1]

I have a Benelli Super 90 in a sporting clays model which is my choice of a very good all around 12 guage shotgun. It was the first shotgun I purchased other than a 1201FP for home defense. I purchased it mainly for skeet and sporting clays and most people were telling me to get a 26" barrel since it swings faster. I picked up all the shotguns I could and went to several shops looking and feeling. Hands down when I picked this one up, it just felt right in my hands. It has a satin walnut stock with a 28" barrel. It's as beautiful as it is functional and I think I paid around $600.00 at the time. It came with 5 chokes and wrench. Would prefer chokes that you can change by hand and I think that's how they come now. A side benefit with the recoil oprated action is that it stays very clean. I would absolutely buy another. Pick them all up and see how they feel in your hands. Good luck and have fun shopping!

[Fred Fuller]

Umm... anyone notice the date of the OP??

Chances are, in seven years a decision has already been made... :D

lpl

[figment]

Umm... anyone notice the date of the OP??

Chances are, in seven years a decision has already been made...

lpl this seems to happen a lot around here

[FAS1]

:confused:Dat is Vierd!

[chas08]

Umm... anyone notice the date of the OP??

Chances are, in seven years a decision has already been made...
NOPE...not till you mentioned it. Maybe he's worn that out by now and is ready for another one:D

[Hunterdad]

Every auto-loader I've owned has jambed at the worst times. And yes, they were clean and properly lubricated. My pump guns have never given me an issue and thats why I shoot them exclusively.