Law enforcement view on CCW


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harthamm
May 7, 2007, 02:36 PM
I was wondering whether there is a majority consensus among LEO's as to whether CCW is a good or bad thing.

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Jorg Nysgerrig
May 7, 2007, 02:38 PM
That is going to vary strongly by region, you might want to be more specific.

CZ.22
May 7, 2007, 03:13 PM
Hmm- I read that beat cops love CCW but the high rankers (chief, etc) are opposed

qlajlu
May 7, 2007, 04:22 PM
I read that beat cops love CCW but the high rankers (chief, etc) are opposed
Most articles I have read seem to support this view. However, there appears to be a rift in that way of thinking in...I think it is Los Angeles, or maybe one of the nearby towns with its own law enforcement. I read where either a Lt. or Capt. that was running for chiefdom completely supported CCW. Problem is I can't remember who said it for sure nor where I read it to give a url to link.

Zach S
May 7, 2007, 04:26 PM
In my area (western NC) LEOs dont seem to care.

arashi
May 7, 2007, 04:56 PM
Many dislike it, just like teacher unions dislike private schools.

It lowers their importance.

Many police agencies seek to maintain the myth that they can or will protect you. 99.9% of people are law abiding, so the myth prevails.

If they show open support for CCW, it devalues the myth.

It takes something like the VT tragedy to see through this myth.

Most police like having a monopoly on the use of force. It is where their percieved power is derived from.

DontBurnMyFlag
May 7, 2007, 04:59 PM
Up here in the Northeast a few of the people Ive worked with were concerned about the public owning and carrying guns. Probably 1% of the cops Ive met/worked with.

Myself and others are completely comfortable with civilians carrying firearms. However in NJ, they are prohibited from doing so.

Ive been on more than a few calls that if the victim was armed...they wouldnt have been a victim.

Dorryn
May 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
Here in Buffalo, they have a lot of cars (taxis, POVs) with the bumper sticker reading "Pay Police As If Your Life Depended On It". Those have always pissed me off.

jpk1md
May 7, 2007, 05:03 PM
There is a correlation between High Ranking LEO's and lack of support for CCW.

1. They tend to be out of touch and do not interact with public enough/do not respond to calls and see the benefit of a citizen that can protect themselves and more importantly....

2. They tend to be political animals...either having political aspirations themselves or they report directly to an elected official who TELLS them how they are going to feel about the issue.

ArmedBear
May 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
Cops here are all for it. For themselves and nobody else.

Ala Dan
May 7, 2007, 05:32 PM
As a former LEO myself, I consider CCW a good thing for law abiding
citizens; and those persons that qualify as such should have that right~!;)

Oohrah
May 7, 2007, 05:39 PM
Former LEO. Most are in favor as real life a lot of
carriers. Being in the records system, they know
before your wheels stop turning that you are a CCW
and don't get surprised!:D

bclark1
May 7, 2007, 06:27 PM
i've heard both sides. two examples: FFL i use most of the time, great guy, worked in a lot of the units that see some of the hairier drug-related violence in the chicago area, has seen "the worst" so to speak - totally supportive of unrestricted right to bear arms. another guy who worked diplomatic security is entirely against the right to bear arms, saying that we need to make our laws around the dumbest or most dangerous people, and that they pose a threat to society and the people who take care of society - thus, too bad for me as someone who would responsibly handle my arms. ironically, although his point of view is easier to poke holes in than a wet tissue, the latter is actually probably the "smarter" guy, now in law school. it's just a personal bias he can't overcome, having been involved in shootouts himself, and feeling for the peace officers here and not wanting them to have to deal with that. i just mention this because i don't think there's an answer to this question. there's no national poll i'm aware of, and even if there was, the various reasons for being for or against are so varied as to negate the answer itself. location, experience, etc. create tremendous variability. that said, if you want some numbers to throw around, gunfacts.info is a good place to start.

Damien45
May 7, 2007, 07:06 PM
As a former LEO myself, I consider CCW a good thing for law abiding
citizens; and those persons that qualify as such should have that right~!

We do have that Right. Unfortunately it needs to be restored.

In my experience, the LEOs I have encountered did the standard "attitude check" (during a stop, start of conversation, ect.), inquired about "dangerous items" and never brought it up agian. To me, that says most LEOs do not have a problem with CCW. Unless the individual brings the problem. Just my opinion.

Aguila Blanca
May 7, 2007, 07:16 PM
Hmm- I read that beat cops love CCW but the high rankers (chief, etc) are opposed

That is going to vary strongly by region, you might want to be more specific.

CAPTAIN MIKE
May 7, 2007, 07:18 PM
Having travelled extensively, my take on it is that it "Depends" on the jurisdiction. Generally speaking, you'll be much more likely to find support by LEOs in those jurisdictions which are "Shall Issue" states and less likely to find support by LEOs in those states which are "May Issue" jurisidcitions. In the several states that have only recently (i.e. within the last 5 years) passed 'Shall Issue' laws, it simply takes awhile for most law enforcement in the state to get used to the idea. Many of them came up through the ranks in a time when only police and criminals carried firearms.

Most experienced law enforcement officers today probably subscribe to the reality that the police just can't be everywhere and most often respond to crimes rather than interdict them. I believe that as experience grows and as statistics continue to show that armed, trained law-abiding citizens help stem the growth of crime, the resistance will continue to slowly evaporate.

Speaking from personal experience, I generally found LEOs to be fair about it. In other words, if they know you are carrying lawfully and that you are mindful of their own need for 'officer safety' I have never experiened any negative encounters.

DMK
May 7, 2007, 07:27 PM
My local sheriff has gone on record as being publicly supportive of CCW and my conceal carry class was taught by a deputy from a neighboring county.

CountGlockula
May 7, 2007, 07:39 PM
There are pros and cons.

Self defense verses non-fully trained CCWers.

Is "CCWers" a word?

BrianB
May 7, 2007, 08:00 PM
Count, I agree. If you're not gonna get trained to a decent level, don't bother carrying.

Steve499
May 7, 2007, 08:12 PM
I retired after 29 years in law enforcement. I never had any concern about an honest man and his gun, regardless of how or where he carried it. The majority (7 out of 10, approximately) of the officers I worked with looked at it the same way I did. That wasn't the way the brass viewed it but they weren't there with you. I figured if they wanted ccw cases made, they could get out on the road and make them!

Steve

rosco22
May 7, 2007, 08:15 PM
From the industry perspective of law enforcement executives we are overwhelmingly opposed to the carrying of firearms by citizens," said Michael Heidingsfield with the Memphis and Shelby County Crime Commission.

His response to a note I sent him .....................

Mr. James--I appreciate the deep and emotional feelings that surround this issue and you have every right toyour position as do I--It is an absolute fact that the leaders of American law enforcement do not support the philosophy that citizens should be armed, and I would respectfully point out that virtually every law enforcement executive has been a beat officer at some point--As a 30 year law enforcement veteran and military officer, I have served this nation in two wars and been confronted both in the military and as a police officer with those who tried to take my life and making the decision as to whether to take the life of another--My comments, whether you agree or disagree, are borne of my experience and not from "steaks and dinner" or being a "talking head"--

Respectfully,

Mike Heidingsfield

The Amigo
May 7, 2007, 08:21 PM
As an LEO myself I support CCW for law abiding Citizens. I believe in a multi state permit reciprocity. And even if its a second amendment right. I believe its your responsibility to maintain yourself proficient and safe enough as far as safe weapon handling.

Ive seen some people at the range with CCWs that would scare the crap out of everyone here.

But that nonsense that all LEO,s hate CCWs or are anti is bull. I look at it this way the more good guys with guns in the Streets the easier my job will be.

ProficientRifleman
May 7, 2007, 08:33 PM
Myself and others are completely comfortable with civilians carrying firearms. However in NJ, they are prohibited from doing so.

Are you active duty military? If not, then YOU ARE a CIVILIAN!

Steve in PA
May 7, 2007, 08:48 PM
ohhhh........panties are going to get in a bunch now!!!

cheygriz
May 7, 2007, 09:02 PM
Most police like having a monopoly on the use of force. It is where their percieved power is derived from.

That simply isn't true! In 22 years of law enforcement, I knew perhaps half a dozen that felt that way, and none of them lasted until retirement.

A very small percentage feel that, but nowhere near MOST!

There is a correlation between High Ranking LEO's and lack of support for CCW.

That IS true! Many "high ranking officials" are there due to political connections rather than ability, and they reflect the opinions of those who put them there.

Most of the officers that I have known and worked with over the years either support CCW, or don't really care, one way or the other. [I]VERY FEW actively opposed it

Mortech
May 7, 2007, 09:07 PM
Bunch , wedgie , whatever . Lets just keep the the topic centered . Around here all the LEOs I know are pretty much pro CCW .

aerod1
May 7, 2007, 10:07 PM
I am not an LEO and have never been one on tv. I do have some friends who are LEO's and they are all very pro CCW for honest citizens.:)

big44
May 8, 2007, 12:07 AM
I really don't care what they think!

ABCDE
May 8, 2007, 12:36 AM
I'm all for CCW for the honest citizen. Too bad it's not an option here, and will lead to one's arrest if caught.

Zen21Tao
May 8, 2007, 02:10 AM
That simply isn't true! In 22 years of law enforcement, I knew perhaps half a dozen that felt that way, and none of them lasted until retirement.

A very small percentage feel that, but nowhere near MOST!

The problem is that there are always more popping up to replace those that don't last. I have a friend that was a 10yr sheriff's deputy and he says that he has seen his share of people strap on a badge on and all of a sudden their ego goes through the ceiling. They have a taste of authority that they would not have in any other field.

While they are disproportionately fewer than the good respectful officers, their action are remembered more than those of the good cops. It is a sad fact of life that people remember the 1% of bad things they see much more than the 99% of good things they see.

Rickstir
May 8, 2007, 09:19 AM
The ones in rural Missouri don't have a problem with it. I have an ex-brother in law who has just retired from the St. Louis Police department. Until he went to the acadamy, he had never touched a gun other than the service. He does not like it.

kludge
May 8, 2007, 09:46 AM
Here are the questions I would be asking any LEO who thinks ordinary "citizens" should not be allowed to CCW:

Knowing what you know, would you encourage your wife/mother to carry?

and

Knowing what you know, do you carry off duty,a nd would you encourage your fellow officers to carry off duty?

Why?



That quickly sorts out the hypocrits.

Norm357
May 8, 2007, 11:15 AM
I have never met a Cop in Metro Atlanta who was anti CCW.

jcoiii
May 8, 2007, 12:39 PM
No problems with it in the Northeast TN LE departments

erict
May 8, 2007, 01:59 PM
A good friend of mine runs a construction company that hires officers to direct traffic on a daily basis. I've BS'd with 10-15 of these guys while out riding to sites with him and the topic of guns always seems to pop up. We've checked in with a few of them on more than one occasion while we were returning from a gun show and they checked out the firearms we bought/traded. I have yet to hear a negative comment from an officer about CCW, I think they could care less one way or another really.

The one thing I do find interesting is not one of the officers I've met has been into firearms or recreational shooting! I'd say 1/2 of them didn't even know the model # Glock they were issued??? I realize that being in the law enforcement field doesn't mean you have to be interested in firearms, but some of these guys would look at something common like an AK that we bought at the show and say "wow, what the heck is that".

Zen21Tao
May 8, 2007, 02:20 PM
Let me add to my previous post that a couple years ago I worked on the political campaigns for the president of the local Frat. order of police when he ran for county commissioner, for the former sheriff when he ran for re-election, and for the current local state attorney when he ran for re-election. I crossed paths with MANY police officers doings this and have to say that at least 80% of those that I talked with were very pro-gun and in favor of legally armed CCW permit holders.

akodo
May 8, 2007, 04:40 PM
Irrelevant

The job of the police is to catch badguys, not to protect you, and not to take care of your civil liberties.

Now, a good lot of police can step aside from their job and say 'Wait a minute, I am an American, and believe in some fundimental freedoms' and then do in fact support your civil rights and all that.

Many times police come down on the side of 'we would like to do X, Y, or Z' and it is all about catching criminals. This is especially true of 'the brass' and higher leadership, who are often judged by how many criminals they catch per year, crime rate drops in the city, and such. They are not judged by how well they protect our civil liberties.

There is a reason we make them read Miranda and stop questioning you once you ask for a lawyer. Of course, if they didn't have to do that, they might catch more badbuys. Same with 'plain sight' search laws. Cops would love to be able to have everyone they pull over for speeding pop their trunk, and they probably would catch more badguys hauling guns, drugs, illegal aliens, bodies, underage booze, etc.

We had a stink here in MN where a city put up cameras to catch red light runners, with the car owner getting the ticket, and potentially jail time, with no need to prove he was actually driving. Due process, innocent until proven guilty, etc applied and the cameras were thrown out. (how does that compare to say a parking ticket? well, you don't ever get jailtime for a parking ticket, you just loose your driver's licence eventually...and driving on public streets is not a constitutionally guarnteed right)

Yet the police wanted to keep the cameras sighting how it helped them control traffic problems, and reduced accidents.

Another stink in MN right now is 'Lurking' crimes, where it is against the law to be partially obscured from view, etc. Basically it is turning into 'Walking while Black' where people are waiting at the bus stop, and police are arresting them for Lurking. Of course when questioned how the law stacks up against the civil liberties, and stuff like proving the person was attempting to hide from others with intent to do some harm or whatever, the police response from the higher ups have been "But this is an important tool for controlling crime!"

I am fine with police pulling over people with a broken taillight, weaving over the white line, minor speeding, etc and running them to see if they have warrants, etc. I am against pulling over people at random and running them for warrants.

Many police, from the police perspective, simply see more guns as more tools for ciminals to use to commit crimes.


Now, a good lot of police can step aside from their job and say 'Wait a minute, I am an American, and believe in some fundimental freedoms' and then do in fact support your civil rights and all that.

The Unknown User
May 8, 2007, 05:12 PM
I would hope LEO's support CCW's in the hands of honest citizens.

Also, being a police officer has little to do with carrying a firearm. It has more to do with the authority you're entrusted with. I was under the impression that a police officer's firearm was there only as a last resort.

The one police officer in my town I've talked with (as he was opening my car door after I locked myself out) didn't know the model Sig he was carrying. I think it was a P228, but neither of us were sure. No big deal. As long as he knows how to use it, I'm fine with it.

tmajors
May 8, 2007, 05:16 PM
If I get pulled over and I'm carrying I get told "thanks" and given a warning.

If I get pulled over and not carrying I get told "why aren't you carrying" and get a ticket.

Your mileage may vary but apparently my local LEO is very CCW friendly :)

ArfinGreebly
May 8, 2007, 05:28 PM
I've been a full-time citizen for more than fifty years.

It is my view that LEOs should also be allowed to participate in the CCW program.

I believe that LEOs have the right to be just as armed and protected as anyone else.

WeThePeople
May 8, 2007, 05:55 PM
From the Second Amendment Foundation:

33. What do Police Officers think?

According to the 13th annual survey that was sent to 21,000 sheriffs and police chiefs across the country, by the National Association of Chiefs of Police, the vast majority of officers believed that citizens should be able to buy guns.

Responding to the question, "Do you believe any law-abiding citizen should be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self-defense?" Ninety-Three percent of officers responded affirmatively.

The Unknown User
May 8, 2007, 09:44 PM
tmajors, stop getting pulled over enough to be able to notice that pattern. :P

TheOld Man
May 8, 2007, 10:16 PM
I live in Washington state. I've been pulled over 2 times in Oregon. First time, got pulled over for ??? (possibly random search of out of state vehicle) Officer sees my CCW, immediately calls for backup. Backup draws on me through open window of cruiser. "Hands on the hood, @$$hole!" Crew of police spend 40+ minutes searching my car. Finally, he finds a bottle of whiskey in trunk. He opens it, pours it out on ground,throws empty back in trunk. Goes to cruiser, spends 10 minutes writing something after conferring with other officers on the scene. They throw my wallet back in my front seat and they tell me I can leave. I check my wallet and there is a ticket folded up in it for "Driving With Open Container of Alcoholic Beverage":cuss:
Second time, a few weeks later. I just leave a friends home in Oregon when I notice turn signal acting funny. On Chevy that usually means a burned out bulb. I pull into auto parts store. Police cruising by spots my Washington plates, backs up running over curb to pull up inches from drivers side door. Within minutes I'm surrounded by police from 2 different cities, 2 counties, plus state police. They take turns shining flashlights in my eyes and looking under (?) my car. Finally all but one leaves. She asks me what I'm doing there, where had I been, where am I going, etc. She asks me why I'm sitting in parking lot, I explain about light. She offers to look for me. Then she hands me a ticket for "Driving with Taillight Out" and leaves. Ironically, the friend whose house I was coming from had complained about the local police being so short of manpower that when his house had been recently burglarized, they couldn't send anybody out to look, just sent him a form to fill out and mail back in.
FWIW: I'm a middle age, middle class businessman, well educated, driving a decent car in a not bad area. I talked to a recently retired CHP who told me that in a lot of jurisdictions, "Concealed Carry" means you are "Armed and Potentially Dangerous." which would explain a lot. I don't even carry my CCW in Oregon anymore.

Surat
May 8, 2007, 11:31 PM
Many dislike it, just like teacher unions dislike private schools.

It lowers their importance.

Many police agencies seek to maintain the myth that they can or will protect you. 99.9% of people are law abiding, so the myth prevails.

If they show open support for CCW, it devalues the myth.

It takes something like the VT tragedy to see through this myth.

Most police like having a monopoly on the use of force. It is where their percieved power is derived from.


I smell troll poop. I somebody mad at the ticket they got?

95% of my of my time is spent talking, not using force. I don't have a monoploy on force, what I do have is a monoploy on the legal power to drag people's tail to the magistrate and then locking them up in jail to wait for bond or court.

CCW is good, and responsible firearms ownerhip is good. It makes criminals less eager to commit crimes if they think there's a risk of getting killed.

Darko
May 9, 2007, 12:41 AM
Good thing for all willing Non Felon Citizens. I'm a cop. :)

Autolycus
May 9, 2007, 12:53 AM
In my experience the majority of LEOs in the Chicagoland area are antigun. However it the rural areas they are more understanding.

However if the majority of LEOs support CCW then why dont they support it nationally and campaign for it? I believe non-LEO organizations supported the LEOSA (HR 218) bill which gave them national carry. It seems that their seems to be a disproportionate number of articles in the papers where there is a quote by a local cop supporting anti-gun measures or advocating more gun control measures.

Green Lantern
May 9, 2007, 12:55 AM
I totally got flamed off another gun board's LEO section when I tried to ask the same question. They accused me of "trolling," though all I did was open with the truthful fact that since no matter HOW good they are, the police will never be able to be everywhere at once, people need to be able to fend for themselves....

IV Troop
May 9, 2007, 01:17 AM
I have been "on the job" for more than a decade. I am very pro CCW.

And I use the word CIVILIAN.

CIVILIAN CIVILIAN CIVILIAN CIVILIAN CIVILIAN.

GET OVER IT !!!!!!

IV Troop
May 9, 2007, 01:22 AM
AFTER READING THIS POST:

I live in Washington state. I've been pulled over 2 times in Oregon. First time, got pulled over for ??? (possibly random search of out of state vehicle) Officer sees my CCW, immediately calls for backup. Backup draws on me through open window of cruiser. "Hands on the hood, @$$hole!" Crew of police spend 40+ minutes searching my car. Finally, he finds a bottle of whiskey in trunk. He opens it, pours it out on ground,throws empty back in trunk. Goes to cruiser, spends 10 minutes writing something after conferring with other officers on the scene. They throw my wallet back in my front seat and they tell me I can leave. I check my wallet and there is a ticket folded up in it for "Driving With Open Container of Alcoholic Beverage"
Second time, a few weeks later. I just leave a friends home in Oregon when I notice turn signal acting funny. On Chevy that usually means a burned out bulb. I pull into auto parts store. Police cruising by spots my Washington plates, backs up running over curb to pull up inches from drivers side door. Within minutes I'm surrounded by police from 2 different cities, 2 counties, plus state police. They take turns shining flashlights in my eyes and looking under (?) my car. Finally all but one leaves. She asks me what I'm doing there, where had I been, where am I going, etc. She asks me why I'm sitting in parking lot, I explain about light. She offers to look for me. Then she hands me a ticket for "Driving with Taillight Out" and leaves. Ironically, the friend whose house I was coming from had complained about the local police being so short of manpower that when his house had been recently burglarized, they couldn't send anybody out to look, just sent him a form to fill out and mail back in.
FWIW: I'm a middle age, middle class businessman, well educated, driving a decent car in a not bad area. I talked to a recently retired CHP who told me that in a lot of jurisdictions, "Concealed Carry" means you are "Armed and Potentially Dangerous." which would explain a lot. I don't even carry my CCW in Oregon anymore.


I HAVE TO THROW THE TOTAL B.S. FLAG!!

There are so many parts to this story that raise the BS meter to fully pegged it is sad.

stevelyn
May 9, 2007, 01:33 AM
Definitely not an issue in my jurisdiction. We tend to promote the idea. I've trained with cops and troopers from all over the state and at the academy (except Los Anchorage) and can't ever recall the subject ever coming up or being talked about in a negative fashion. I've never heard of PSEA (state union) or the Alaska Peace Officers Association taking a position on it either.
I did a stint as TAC officer at the Academy last year during gun week. So the primary firearms instructor and AST assistant instructors were there. It was talked about a couple times (or three) over dinner and drinks. Everyone was supportive of citizen concealed carry.

The only time there was public (or rather official) opposition to concealed carry, was during the legislative process for our initial "shall issue" bill. The only people I remember being against it was the POS Public Safety Commissioner at the time and a "can't understand normal thinking" senator from one of the bush districts that didn't understand the concept. The PS Commissioner even went as far as forbidding state troopers from teaching the "legal aspects" portion of the CHL class in their off time.

One of my best friends was rather pi$$ed the Commissioner's ruling, because he believed that if troopers were authorized to teach that portion of the class that they should be out there to ensure a degree of uniformity on the information being passed out. Afterall, they'd be the ones responding to SD shootings outside municipal boundries.

Of course a couple years later after an election and the appointment of a new PS Commissioner he called the new Commisioner's office on his lunch break (making sure he didn't pursue the matter on the state's time;) ) and requested he consider changing the policy.

He received an answer the next day. The ban was lifted.:D :neener:

Cuda
May 9, 2007, 01:33 AM
I don't want to seem against LEO's but why should I care what they think or approve of? I have the right as do they and they should have no say whether I carry or not.


C

Fulcrum of Evil
May 9, 2007, 03:01 AM
> why should I care what they think or approve of?

Lone wolves don't last long. It's good to make friends and influence the influential toward your way of thinking.

Dr. Dickie
May 9, 2007, 07:20 AM
I would be willing to bet that in the more rural localities the LEOs are more comfortable with CCW than their counterparts in the more urban areas.
No proof, just a gut feeling. The higher the crime, the more potential threats around you, the more at ease I would think you would be with thinking that it might be good to reduce the number of guns around you--that coupled to the general more anti-gun attitude that there is in cities (it's just human nature to adopt the attitude of the majority of those around you).
Of course that would be generally, generally, there are always exceptions to the rule.
I know there are a few LEO's locally that shoot in IDPA with me, and they are quite comfortable with CCW's. Wish there were more, but damn glad there are some:D

Joe Demko
May 9, 2007, 08:13 AM
Many dislike it, just like teacher unions dislike private schools.

1. Not factually correct WRT teacher unions.
2. Not germane to the topic.

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