[CZ.22]

SHould LEOs have kept their .38 (mainly) and some .357 instead of switching to autochuckers

[DogBonz]

as more and more police come from non-shooting backgrounds, I think that the auto is easier to gut them to shoot quickly and accurately, and then reload quickly if needed. Now, I could be wrong, but I started on an auto, so they just seem easier to me.

[RP86]

6 or 7 rounds vs. 16 rounds(depending on gun/catridge) at your dispense without reloading is a major difference. I love revolvers and autoloaders equally, but I think the change was very wise.

[Soybomb]

Autochuckers? I think they should have went to wizzleworts or cyclezox.

Seriously though there is no comparison between reloading speed and firepower on hand between revolvers and semi automatics. They may never need it, but for the few that do they'll be glad to have it.

[Iggy]

I had to vote for the .41. I switched 40 years ago and it worked for me!!:evil:

[Nomad, 2nd]

How about the officer gets to carry what he is most comfortable/best with so long as it meets minimum quality/power standards.

[ChristopherG]

I have always preferred shooting revolvers to autos, and have shot more revolvers (both in terms of guns and rounds) by a fair margin.

BUT, autoloaders--at least well-fitted, modern and reliable autoloaders--are just easier to shoot well. And easier to reload. And they have the obvious capacity advantage. I know this is true--that autos are easier--because when I put my Glock aside for 2 solid years and advanced considerably in competitive shooting with a wheelgun, I could shoot my Glock faster than my favored revolver (and equally accurate; tested on targets w/a timer) the very first time I picked it up again. NO WAY would that have worked the other way around.

And as for the capacity and reloading advantage, I'd like to live in an age where such things wouldn't matter, and I don't think the difference between six and fifteen shots is ever LIKELY to make a difference or save my life; but now that I'm in the process of getting sworn, I'm glad it's a Glock I'll be wearing.

[Ala Dan]

I voted "NO, they should have switched to autoloaders"; mainly for two
reasons:

a) the .38 Special was a useful cartridge in its heyday, having served many
departments well for a very long time. But, long about the late 70's and early
80's when the drug scene (and crime in gerneral) starting getting out of hand
a weapon with more more power (like that of the criminal element) was needed.

b) Enter the "wonder nines", especailly the Smith & Wesson model 59. After
having filled the 9m/m roll for a long time, the wonderful Smith & Wesson
model 39 and 39-2's were replaced with the "high capacity" S&W model 59's.
Offering more firepower, and better ballistics than the vunderable 158 grain
.38 Special LRN; street officers now had a weapon that they considered an
equal to that of the "street thug".

c) Not until Mr. Lee Jurras invented the cartridge we have come to know
as "Super Vel's", did the S&W .38 Special stand a chance. I knew of one
case where a thug in North Birmingham took five (YES 5) shots to the
chest with the 158 grain LRN .38 Special and lived to attack the officer
who had fired the shots. The very next day, the officer was seen at a
local sporting goods store buying himself a S&W model 57 .41 magnum.

d) But, in todays society the wonderful .41 magnum is waneing in use
by anyone other than "target shooters", for two reasons. Factory ammo
is only made by Remington and Federal; and is very expensive, plus hard
too find.

e) When pressed to give my my revolver a'bout 1980 or so, I temporarily
switched to the S&W 9m/m model 59 myself. Not satisfied with this gun,
I begin to look at other options. Enter the .45ACP, in the form of a Colt
Combat Commander~! A useful weapon that offered the firepower that I
needed, plus the comfort of all day carry. Still wanting a DA first shot,
I switched to a West German SIG-SAUER P220A in 1988; and have never
looked back~! ;)

f) But, today upon retirement from my old upscaled department I choose
to carry a 1911; in the form of a Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry II .45 ACP.
Nope, I haven't given up on the nearly century old cartridge; as its right
by my side, as I type this. :D

[Iggy]

Ala Dan,
Interesting coincidences.. I went from the .38 to the .41 after a fatal encounter with a racoon in a tree.. I got to thinking if that racoon had possessed a gun and had been shooting back.......?

I too bought a .41 as fast as I could get my hands on one.

A few years later I flirted with the Model 59, but felt it was inadequate for me against vehicles and BG's barricaded or behind them and returned to the .41.

My wife, who was a Sheriff's Deputy, adopted the .59 quite happily.

In the last couple of years I was with the Patrol, I followed with great interest the FBI's testing and adoption of the 10mm. I followed their lead and got one too.

As an old Geezer, I still carry a 1911 in 10mm as my CCW today.

[jad0110]

... because there is no "whatever" option ;) .

I agree with Nomad, 2nd about allowing choices. Then again, I understand the need for tightly limiting those choices for logistics reasons.

So, if I were an LEO and if I had a choice of sidearm of say, either a Glock XX and a S&W 686+, I'd pick the 686. Some can shoot the shell shucker better. I shoot the 686 better, particularly in rapid fire with 38s because of nearly zero muzzle rise. For myself, there isn't any advantage in having more rounds if they won't be placed well.

[Sistema1927]

I love my .38 Special revolvers. And my .357 magnum revolvers, and my .45 revolvers.

But, if the SHTF, I am going to grab a Glock 17 and all the hi-cap magazines that I can carry. (Along with a good rifle.)

A revolver is fine as a CCW for someone (like me) who can choose not to intentionally wander into danger. If I was being dispatched to chase bad guys i would want all the firepower that I could muster.

[vanilla_gorilla]

LEOs should at the very least be given the option of a autoloader if they desire. Handicapping them with a S&W Model 10 or some trash like that and then asking them to patrol the modern day streets is akin to throwing a chicken and a bobcat in a cage together.

[ARTiger]

I shoot with LEO's at an indoor range sometimes. All I can say is they should invest a bit more in training rather than the latest wonderpistols. Standard tactic among the younger ones is to run a silhouette target out to about 10 yards then empty a mag or two into it as fast as they can. Some don't even hit the paper with many of their shots. They may get a lot of taxpayer-funded trigger time at the range, but useful instruction seems very lacking.

Not saying they should go back to revolvers, just that when BG's and cops square off now it seems a duel of spray and pray with the LEO's having more folks spraying and coming out on top usually.

On the other hand, I know several LEO's who are excellent shots and take pride in that. Are those guys fast becoming a minority in big departments?

[WeThePeople]

I didn't vote because there is no "choice" choice. I think that an officer/agent should be able to carry any firearm that he/she wants to. Just like me!!!

[welldoya]

As I remember, the shift to autoloaders began back in the 80s due to that big shoot-out with bank robbers down around Miami. The LEOs were simply outgunned and some ran out of ammo because they were shooting six-shooters.
I used to think my Smith model 60 was the ultimate carry weapon. (5 shots).
Now it's my Glock 19 (16 shots).

[ozwyn]

Well............. the caliber and type of hangun doesn't mean squat without good training. In most shootouts where LEO's are said to be massively undergunned, it more often than not turns out that they are undergunned due to accuracy problems more than caliber failures.

Even the famous LA shootout could have been resolved faster with revolvers and headshots than turning to higher powered rifles and people who can't shoot accurately.

Shot placement is still first and foremost.... but I suspect police departments find it easier to buy expensive guns and not expensive training.

[Jeff White]

When I started we were issued Model 65 and Model 66 S&W .357 revolvers. This was in July of 1985. I carried a Colt Agent as a BUG.

In 1987 I started carrying a Beretta 92F on duty as part of a test for switching over to autos. Another officer carried a S&W auto. In 1992 we switched over to autos, with the department buying S&W 5906s. Scores went up measurably.

The switch over to semi autos may not have pleased revolver enthusiasts, but it was the right thing to do.

I currently carry a Kimber Warrior on duty and a S&W model 36 as a BUG.

Jeff

[CZ.22]

Interesting results so far-most people think they shoould have switched to autoloaders.
Should have included a 'choice' and a 'choice with huge stresses on training' category.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that this would still be with shotguns and rifles in the squad cars.

[Geronimo45]

I reckon they should've switched to autoloaders. From what I've read, autoloaders are easier to learn to shoot by the average non-gunny. Why, I don't know. Having 15 rounds of 9mm on tap isn't so much a necessity as a luxury - handy for Miami shootout-type events. Though today, with all the cop cars with ARs in the back, I don't know that a high-cap autoloader is that important anymore. Reloading speed and the amount of ammo you can carry is nice.

If there were no switch to autos, I think PDs should've switched to .357 Magnums as the minimum full-size service revolver - seems that shooting through cars can be pretty important for coppers - and I don't know if .38s do a good enough job of that.

[ArchAngelCD]

As much as I like Revolvers they aren't practical for LE applications in today’s world. The BG's are carrying high-cap pistols which force the Police to do the same. You can't have a Officer come up against multiple BG's with pistols carrying 16-17 rounds each and he has a revolver which carries 6 rounds. Do the Math, the Officer will lose and that's totally unacceptable.

[CZ.22]

ArchAngel
I see your point, but a lot of the guns BGs are toting are cheapo low-cap autos, and I remember hering that the gun most used in crime was the Model 10.

[RevolvingCylinder]

How about the officer gets to carry what he is most comfortable/best with so long as it meets minimum quality/power standards.
This is the best answer. It's kind of funny when there's a "9mm vs. .45" debate the words "shot placement" come up but not when it comes to the platform an individual can most successfully place accurate shots with.
LEOs should at the very least be given the option of a autoloader if they desire. Handicapping them with a S&W Model 10 or some trash like that and then asking them to patrol the modern day streets is akin to throwing a chicken and a bobcat in a cage together.
I agree that there should be no choice restriction but I forgot that during the heyday of the S&W M&P that there were no gang problems nor did they possess fully automatic weapons. Thanks for the history lesson.

I think it's bad policy to force a specific sidearm on entire departments. Individuals should have a choice whether they want to carry a Glock 17, M1911A1 variant, or S&W 686.

[DawgFvr]

I love my 642 for personal defense and such a great pocket carry! Still, while in the Military or as a LEO, I would prefer an Auto with a bigger/faster bullet in beau coup quantities. Oh...and I wouldn't be worried about concealed pocket carry...the side arms would be just that: side arms.

[ArchAngelCD]

I see your point, but a lot of the guns BGs are toting are cheapo low-cap autos, and I remember hering that the gun most used in crime was the Model 10.
CZ.22,
I would like to see that stat about the Model 10 because I find that hard to believe. I don't know where you live but the BG's using cheap guns is history. That may have been true 20 years ago but no more. Most big cities have gang problems and gang members are using high quality expensive weapons. All the drug money affords them that ability. Don't you believe the BG's are walking around with cheap low-cap guns.

It's a war on the streets in many cities and the Police have to be properly equipped. It's unfortunate but sadly true.

[Lone_Gunman]

I think police officers carrying high capacity autos pose more risk to public safety than those carrying 6 shot revolvers.

Feel free to flame me.

Case in point is the old black lady recently murdered by the Atlanta Police Department. I believe something like 39 shots were fired by the police, and they hit each other more than they hit the old lady.

[obxned]

Anything but a round-nosed lead 158g .38 Special!!!

[nemoaz]

Ala Dan, Interesting coincidences.. I went from the .38 to the .41 after a fatal encounter with a racoon in a tree.. I got to thinking if that racoon had possessed a gun and had been shooting back.......?

I sure hope it was the racoon that got the worst of the fatal encounter. :D

Anything but a round-nosed lead 158g .38 Special!!!

For sure. 700 fps of round-nosed, ice-picking fury. I don't trust any round that only has 200-250 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. These .380s and 38's have a place... on my ankle as a backup. And the .380 or .38 is going to have as many plusses on the box as possible. If I'm carrying a fullsize pistol or wheelgun, it will have 400 fl-lbs more or less. That level of power is easily controlled by a skilled shooter so I see no reason why I would consider anything less... even if a pocket pistol round in a fullsize weapon does produce a very soft shooter.

EDITED: I don't know why I cannot proofread my own darn work these days!

[Checkman]

Well it's a done deal. This issue was dead approximately 15 years ago when the last of the really huge city PD's went to autoloaders (NYPD).

I really like revolvers and own eight of them, but for the past seven years I've been a cop and I've only carried an autoloader. First it was a Sig 220 and now I carry the Glock 19.

Autos don't move me like a really nice blued steel wheelgun, but whne it comes to the street I'll take an autoloader anytime.

[thebaldguy]

I see nothing wrong with a .38 revolver. But I see the possible advantages of having a pistol larger ammo capacity as well. Just in case.

[351 WINCHESTER]

Alan Dan, Next time you got a coon up a tree, load your .38 with standard wadcutters. I think you will be pleasantly surprised as will the coon.

[fireflyfather]

Welldoya,

As I remember, the shift to autoloaders began back in the 80s due to that big shoot-out with bank robbers down around Miami. The LEOs were simply outgunned and some ran out of ammo because they were shooting six-shooters.

Those guys didn't need to upgrade from revolvers to autoloaders. They needed to upgrade from handguns to rifles. If you bring a handgun to a rifle fight and get your butt handed to you, do not blame the handgun. This has all been said before.

[kmrcstintn]

I chose not to vote since this is not a clear cut answer, but I will offer comment...

revolver~ .38 spl/.38 spl +p; autoloader~ 9mm (lower 9mm is near .38 spl +p)

revolver~ .357 magnum; autoloader~ 9mm (mid to upper 9mm is near .357 magnum)

revolver~ .357 magnum; autoloader~ alternative--.357 Sig (almost toe-to-toe with .357 magnum when comparing 125 grain loads)

revolver~ .41 magnum; autoloader~ .40 S&W (both bullets are near the same diameter and are close to each other on the ballistic scale)

I like revolvers and feel that they have great applicability among the civilian popluation and also function as back up guns for LEO's; making the switch to autoloaders made sense when the transition was made and the decision is even more sensible with the availability and proliferation of high tech/high performance loads that have been developed in the last decade or two