A student in Detroit needs some advice


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DetroitStudent
May 7, 2007, 08:38 PM
Ok guys,

I have posted on here a few times before but I would like to know your input. As my name suggests I live in detroit. Here's the deal: recently a student was walking home on a "safer" street in detroit. Usually there are other people walking on it, a stones throw away from the hospital.

This day, however, this student was unlucky. Two men approached him out of nowhere and held a 9mm glock automatic to his chest, demanding his money. This is increasing in occurrence in detroit. The student handed over the money, and then ran away.

Question: If you are armed, what do you do? No matter how fast you draw, he's the one who has the gun on you. Do you just hand over the money? Do you avoid eye contact, etc?

Please post a number of responses especially if you are law enforcement. I know there are alot of students on these forums. Also, would one be justified in a shooting incident if these were the circumstances?


Thanks
Detroitstudent

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Sig245
May 7, 2007, 08:56 PM
I think common sense dictates that if there is a gun pointed at your chest, yes you give them the money. I sure would rather do that than risk death. I don't care what gun I had in my pocket.

Reminds me of an incident a friend of mine experienced. He is a rough, tough, cowboy type. A crack shot and always has a gun or two within easy reach. He was going through a taco bell drive through window in Los Angeles and a guy walked up and stuck a gun against his head and said, give me your money. Guess what, my friend choose life and gave the guy his wallet!

Thats the smart move! Always choose life! Sometimes you don't get a choice and have to try to defend yourself in any way you can. You may get shot, but then you may kill your attacker also. Best to use your head and always try to take the smart path.

Nomad, 2nd
May 7, 2007, 09:12 PM
When someone is pointing a gun at you... you've already lost the fight!

AVOID the situation... live in condition yellow.

CypherNinja
May 7, 2007, 09:25 PM
If they've got a gun to your chest it's already too late. You've got to be aware of who's around you, and act accordingly.

Geno
May 7, 2007, 09:27 PM
My first question is, how old are you...in Michigan you must be 21 to carry a pistol. No other weapon (knife, etc) is legal for carry.

1. Walking in certain areas of Detroit is not prudent. At worst, walk in pairs or small groups.

2. Be alert...ultra-alert.

3. If in a dangerous area have a hand on your weapon, ready to draw, as you pass through the area.

4. Avoid engagement with all unknown people. If they persist in attempting engagement, you're being set-up.

5. You are NOT required, in Michigan, to retreat. To shoot, you merely need to feel a credible treat to your physical health/life.

6. You do NOT have to wait to see a gun...that's too late.

7. Remember, the justification of shooting is to stop an attack, not to kill! Big difference!

You need to take a MCPL (CCW) course if you're old enough.

Sharps-shooter
May 7, 2007, 10:00 PM
Awareness is key. there isn't realy a simple answer to your question that would always be applicable. In the situation you give, its pretty bad. There are no great choices in that scenario. Some possible choices include:

1. Draw your weapon and shoot the person

2. Run away

3. Disarm the assailant

4. Comply with the assailant's demands

None of them is necessarily the wrong answer, except after the fact. None of them is really a winning choice either. I think it's easy enough to see how the first three might go wrong. The fourth might go wrong if your implied surrender results in you being taken hostage (what could be better than a compliant hostage), or shot anyway (hey, you're a witness after all), or raped, curb-kicked, or otherwise violated.

So in any similar situation you would have to make a decision based on your situational assets and liabilities. Maybe the assailant just wants enough money to keep himself from going into crack withdrawal for the next few hours. Or maybe he's enraged and is in the middle of a muging and assaulting spree. Maybe he's just bluffing, and doesn't really have the guts to kill you. Then again, maybe he does. Multiple assailants complicate things greatly.

Most likely, in this situation, I would talk to the person as politely and calmly as posible. I was mugged once, in an open air market in broad daylight, by three guys with knives, and that is what I did. I gave them my wallet and spoke to them much as I would have if they had asked for it politely. I nearly got in bad trouble for not having more money to be robbed of (only $20, after they went to all that trouble and risk,) but it all worked out okay. Your methods and/or results may vary.

I try to get by on awareness, and thus far have had a pretty interesting life, and lived to tell about it. I'm not sure I would be able to identify the make and caliber of a handgun if it was to my chest, like this person did, but I try not to let anyone come "out of nowhere" on me either.

Happyshooter
May 7, 2007, 10:04 PM
Down by the DMC? Not a lot of metal detectors at Wayne State, you could run dirty on campus with a small pocket gun.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 7, 2007, 10:22 PM
To give another example of what Sharps-shooter was describing, there was recently a story on here about a forum member who was robbed while cleaning out a storage unit. He didn't see the guy until he was on top of him and didn't even notice the Glock pointed at him at first. He handed over his wallet; and then the guy turned him around and frisked him and found his carry pistol (a Keltec P32). He said "So you was gonna smoke me huh?" and then forced the guy into the back of the storage unit. Luckily, he just ran off after that; but that could have gotten really ugly quickly.

As others have already mentioned, the key is to be aware of potential threats and have already worked out your response to them. If you only start thinking through those problems when the gun is already in your face, you are way behind the curve.

Also, would one be justified in a shooting incident if these were the circumstances?

A good synopsis of when you can use deadly force that will apply in most of the states is at Firearms Tactical (http://www.firearmstactical.com/):

A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

1. the ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon),

2. the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to harm you with his weapon), and

3. his intent (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy -- to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that can justify an emergency deadly force response.

If you can run away -- RUN!

DetroitStudent
May 7, 2007, 11:11 PM
Living in Condition yellow is not always possible. Living in Detroit is different than in a small town or even similarly sized city- homeless people, crackheads, and just poor bums are just part of the city. I have walked by them a lot- but to be fair i rarely go outside when I don't absolutely have to. Many are innocent people asking for change. Others are probably not so innocent. Another part of my question- what if the attacker had a knife?


BTW I am in my mid-twenties- old enough to carry.

bsf
May 8, 2007, 02:58 AM
I only skimmed the other posts. Since you claim to be of legal age for CCW, go take the required training to get your license. That will be a start. If the instructor is good, you can get sound answers for all your questions. Also, you need to get your color codes straight. The only time you should not be in condition yellow or higher is if you are sleeping, unconscious, etc. Yellow signifies “relaxed alertness & preparedness”. Maintaining condition yellow is not hard.

Concerning all the pan-handler, bums, or whatever; avoid them. If you feel the need to be charitable, do it in a way that allows you to provide for your own safety.

Nomad, 2nd
May 8, 2007, 03:14 AM
Right now I am not in condition yellow, but I'm sitting in a chair, facing the only door in the room, with my 'typical carry' and a AK next to me:D
-Just happened that way... and THAT's the point.

You MOST CERTAINLY can be in condition yellow when out and about... walking out in the open... It will take time, and effort to put in the training, and mindset issues, your friends will mock you for wanting to sit back to the wall...

But they will get used to it, and naturally let you take that seat, and after awhile you will not even realise you are doing what has become first nature to you.

Not saying you can't get supprised... no one is perfect, but your way of carrying yourself, and scanning without knowing it will warn away the wolves. When your demeaner says "I AM NOT FOOD." they will often look elsewhere.

Check, but in many areas, inside 21 feet with a knife you can shoot them, that's because with a drawn knife you can cut (Most people) before they can draw.

Mumwaldee
May 8, 2007, 03:31 AM
Being as this is a "what if" or a "what would you do?" scenario.

I think you pitch your wallet as far over their heads behind them as you can...after/if they turn and go for the money...well then you're on your own. If they're going to shoot you...then they're probably going to shoot you regardless.

These are truly life or death tactics, but chances I would take if I thought I were going to be shot.
I've seen this one work:

"Hey man! Don't you remember me?" As confusion crept over BG's face then "victim" acted to great effect. I am sure there are a lot of variations to this, but again these are very high risk. You could also fake illness, heart attack...bowel evacuation.

kellyj00
May 8, 2007, 10:42 AM
Unless you're Jason Bourne it's just not going to happen for you.
Give up the dough.

Remember, in the movies the bad guy's don't fight back and the heroes are super-human. In the real world, we all move about the same speed.

Getting mugged doesn't mean game over. Just the start actually, you learned what they guys look like hopefully, and that you AREN'T safe so you must keep your nose clean and get a CCL.

If you ever see the guys again, you can get the drop on them.

fspitzdorf
May 8, 2007, 02:10 PM
What I really want to know is: In the heat of the moment, how your average "student" can discern that the weapon pointed at his / her chest is a "Glock" and it is an "automatic"... :banghead:

The best way to avoid confrontation is to not put yourself in the situation to begin with... unfortunately, yes, I have spent time in Detroit and understand how that could be difficult to do...

Mumwaldee
May 8, 2007, 02:48 PM
Unless you're Jason Bourne it's just not going to happen for you.
Give up the dough.


Where do you usually walk?

Crunker1337
May 8, 2007, 04:38 PM
I'm a student of martial arts.

We actually have techniques just for situations like this; I'd employ one of them. Basically you hit the guy's wrist and the gun in opposing directions at the same time. The gun comes loose, you counter, draw your own weapon, or run.

akodo
May 8, 2007, 05:00 PM
As others said, condition yellow, avoid the situation. Once it gets to that point, you are way behind the curve.

As far as 'detroit is rough, too many bums, cannot be in condition yellow'

B.S.

Think guys in heavy urban combat in WW2 said 'too many potential threats, I'll just stroll around like normal!'...?

Your life is valuable, correct? Then it may take time and effort to preserve it.

Does this mean you need to cross to the other side of the street every time you see a pan-handler? no. But it does mean you need to give that panhandler a good looking over, see any clues to if he is the kind to upgrade to violence to get his cash. You better be alert enough to know when some loiterers you just passed by stop loitering and start following you

Chui
May 8, 2007, 05:34 PM
Go to The Firingline in Westland (38427 Webb Drive) and sign up for their CPL (Concealed Pistol License) Class.

If you have the means learn some self-defense techniques (open hand and with a small blade).

If the pistol is already at your chest you give it up. Or you may "eat it".

Gnarkill
May 9, 2007, 05:21 AM
cruncker's answer is the perfect answer. Your outward arm muscles are weak. You knock someone's arm towards their chest and you should easily be able to draw and fire.

ConfuseUs
May 9, 2007, 07:09 AM
Living in Condition yellow is not always possible. Living in Detroit is different than in a small town or even similarly sized city- homeless people, crackheads, and just poor bums are just part of the city. I have walked by them a lot- but to be fair i rarely go outside when I don't absolutely have to. Many are innocent people asking for change. Others are probably not so innocent.


If there's so much "noise" that you have trouble discerning what a real threat is you have to make some decisions:

1) move to an environment with less camouflage for street criminals, i.e., lower noise to signal ratio. That probably means leaving Detroit, but you'll probably feel better if you do so.

2) maintain your current mindset and take the inherent risks that entails. That means stay in Detroit, and pay the same attention to people on the street as you did before. Hope nothing happens.

3) work on developing the skills to determine who is and isn't a threat on the street.

Since Detroit is declining economically and socially (negative net migration is the indicator) it would be easiest to pack up and leave, unless you have some sort of obligation keeping you there.

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