Red Dots - MOA Size vs. Group Size?


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rhubarb
May 8, 2007, 08:40 PM
Looking at red dot scopes, you see that they list the size of the dot in MOA - 4 MOA, 6 MOA, etc. I understand that these scopes aren't designed for benchrest work, but how does the size of the dot translate to your ability to shoot groups?

If a scope is 4 MOA, then could I not likely shoot a group at 100 yards less than 4"? Or would it be even bigger due to whatever level of intrinsic inaccuracy exists in my rifle? Would it possibly be much smaller depending on my ability to re-center on the target?

I ask not because I want to shoot well off a bench with a red dot, but because I am curious about the practical accuracy in the field hunting.

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Jorg Nysgerrig
May 8, 2007, 09:00 PM
All that 6MOA means is that the dot would appear to be 6" at 100 yards. Here's where you run into a problem. Let's say you zero at 100 yards and are shooting at 3" circle. Your dot is twice as big as your target. Makes it hard to accurately hit a 3" target when it is hiding behind 6" dot. Smaller dots will allow finer shot placement, provided the gun can do it and you do your part.

cslinger
May 8, 2007, 09:10 PM
Its all about the right tool for the job. Red dots really are about fast engagement and less about precision at distance.

I have a 4 MOA Aimpoint on a SIG 556 and it does make 100 yard precision difficult. I was able to pull off some decent 1.5-3.5 inch groups pretty easily and even a couple tight suckers but it wasn't near as easy as using a scope.

Your best bet for best of both worlds is probably an Eotech with its 1 MOA dot or an ACOG with its ARM/LEG cost. :D

The review below shows some groups shot at 100 yards with said 4 MOA Aimpoint.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=273630

Chris

Nomad, 2nd
May 8, 2007, 09:28 PM
A 4 MOA dot obscures a peperpoper at 400 meters. (Can still hit them, but it is not easy.)

I prefer a smaller MOA for this reason.

glockman19
May 8, 2007, 09:32 PM
What scope to get for an AR-15 I would like to have it Co-witnessed, if that's the term, red dot or holo? I'm looking at Eotec 511's

bofe954
May 8, 2007, 09:52 PM
I'm going to have to start playing with red dots.

I can see how having a smaller dot could aid in precision to some extent, but I would think that you could get smaller groups than your dot.

If you were aiming at a 4 inch round black area on a target and you covered it exactly with your 4MOA dot your rounds should be going in to the center of your 4MOA dot and the bull of the target right?

I am just asking because my front sight is typically wider than the groups that I shoot when I use decent ammo in my M1A, because I am lining up the center of the post with the target. I am assuming if I did the same with a red dot that appeared as wide as my front sight appears I would get similar groups. I realize there is a limit, I even bought a narrower front sight for my rifle at one point.

However, a 4 MOA dot should not limit you to a 4 MOA group.

Glockman- cowitness is a term that applies to having your iron sights align with your dot. That is, your dot would appear at the tip of your front sight. I am pretty sure an Eotech would cowitness with typical irons if placed on the flattop of an A4.

270Win
May 8, 2007, 11:03 PM
What optics have the smallest red dot?

I know BSA was advertising something on Midway not all that long ago that claimed to have a 1MOA dot... I was skeptical. But who knows.

M2 Carbine
May 8, 2007, 11:20 PM
For precision shooting with a Red Dot I use a (black) bullseye that's a couple inches larger than the dot.
So the sight picture is a Red Dot centered in a black ring.
Depending on the gun and ammo, I expect to get 3-3.5 inches at 100 yards with a 5 inch Red Dot.
On a target of any size, that's larger than the Dot, you can center the Red Dot pretty good.

This is about typical (for me) using a 5 inch Red Dot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRnewRedDot.jpg

BigSoundRacing
May 9, 2007, 12:25 AM
Nice!!

I'm using an EOTech to play golf with the FS2000, works pretty good!

Be safe, BSR

10-Ring
May 9, 2007, 01:17 AM
From what've I've experienced w/ my Eotech & its 1 MOA dot, I have all the precision I need out to 100 yards. Recently, I was able to put 5 shots on a 3/4" orange dot at 50 yards. But if true precision is really your objective, go w/ a scope ;)

DMK
May 9, 2007, 10:35 AM
Your dot is twice as big as your target. Makes it hard to accurately hit a 3" target when it is hiding behind 6" dot.

When zeroing a red dot with a large dot, you put your point of aim at the top of the dot (sort of an inverse six o'clock hold). So if you were doing a six o'clock hold on a round target, your sight picture would look something like an: 8 (target on top, dot on bottom). If you were doing a center hold, the bottom circle would eclipse the bottom half of the top circle. Basically you are using it just like you would your front sight post.

That allows you keep from completely obscuring the target and to get some semblance of precision back.

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 9, 2007, 06:04 PM
DMK is, of course, correct on the proper way to use a large dot. I just find that most don't do it that way. They just stick the big dot in the middle of what they want to hit. :)

RNB65
May 9, 2007, 06:12 PM
I wear contacts and have uncorrected astigmatism in my right eye. When I look thru my red-dot sight I usually see two different dots that slightly overlap. I try to zero them at the point where the two dots overlap.

And somehow, amazingly enough, it works! :D

Jackal
May 9, 2007, 06:32 PM
You dont need an Eotech. Just get yourself a nice Bushnell Holosight and be done with it, at $100 lower price. With my Holosight's 1moa dot, I can hit my targets quite accurately at 100 yards with my Bushmaster.

richardschennberg
May 10, 2007, 03:02 PM
You want the dot size to be easy to see on the target you use most. Smaller dots usually translate into better potential accuracy, but as long as the dot is not bigger than the bullseye or notable features of the target, you should be fine.
Richard
Schennberg.com (http://www.schennberg.com)

cracked butt
May 10, 2007, 05:46 PM
When zeroing a red dot with a large dot, you put your point of aim at the top of the dot (sort of an inverse six o'clock hold). So if you were doing a six o'clock hold on a round target, your sight picture would look something like an: 8 (target on top, dot on bottom).

Exactly right!

Shipwreck
May 10, 2007, 06:02 PM
What optics have the smallest red dot?

I use a 511 model EOtech. Inside of the reticle is a 1 MOA dot. It makes it much easier to shoot at long distances. U can control the brightness too to help "see thru" the dot to still see the target. I love the eotech :)

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