NY University Request to CCW


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Dorryn
May 9, 2007, 05:41 PM
Ok. About 6 months ago, I asked if I was allowed to CCW on campus (I am working on my Masters) and I was told by the President that no, I was not allowed to. Fine, I said ill just have to suck it up and be a sheep. Last week, I figured I would do some research, and lo and behold, I discovered that I *could* CCW on campus with permission of the President. So, I wrote a new letter requesting permission. Several days later, I got a reply from the Vice President on behalf of the president. He didnt argue, just said no, etc etc. That letter is also included below. My question is this:

Should I give up and once again just be a sheep for a few more months until I get a degree? Is there any point in replying? Should I attempt to argue a pro-gun position? Should I threaten suit or even imply legal means if I were to be attacked as a result of their policy? Would it be rude or in any way "non-THR" to bother replying? I dont want to insult or offend, especially if it appears theyve made up their minds. It would also be a waste of time to craft a response if they wont bother to read it. Obviously, the position the university has is a little ignorant, but so are most universities. I just want to do the right thing.

Names changed to protect the ignorant.



My Letter:
Dr. XXXXXXXXXXXXXX,

We previously corresponded approximately 6 months ago regarding myself seeking permission to concealed carry a firearm on campus.

At that time, you denied me permission to do so. As I mentioned in my previous email, I am a former United States Marine. In addition, I have a valid Concealed Carry Permit with the State of NY.

In light of the recent tragedies at Virginia Tech, I believe it is imperative that some students be armed in order to forestall tragedies of the magnitude that occured there. An armed student can stop or limit the damage and severity of these incidents, especially when trained to the degree to which I have been. U.S. Security, the security staff employed by XXXXXXXXXXX University, is not prepared to act in any manner which could protect my fellow students, a fact which I can confirm as a prior employee of said company. As you are no doubt aware, XXXXXXXXXXXX University is close to several areas listed as high-crime/violence areas in the city of Buffalo, and I am concerned for my safety as well as those of other students.

Regarding the legality of such:

Concealed Carry is illegal at Educational facilities, but you can be exempted if you have the permission of the administrator. Carrying on school grounds without permission is Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the fourth degree, a Class A misdemeanor. (See Penal Law 265.01[3])

Therefore, I am writing again to respectfully request permission to carry on campus. I am of course willing to show proof and documentation of these documents (permit, proof of ownership, NYS Drivers License, expired military ID) and file photocopies with your office.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


The Response:
XXXXXXX,

XXXXXXXXXXXX has been in communication with me in relation to your request to carry a weapon on campus. She has also asked me to reply back to you.

The college policy forbids any type of weapon on campus and we are going to continue with that policy. Thus your request is denied.

While we all deeply felt the tragedy at Virginia Tech, and are obviously concerned about the safety of our own students and employees we will continue to stand by our policy on weapons. At the same time we are reviewing our emergency policies and procedures so that we may better respond to any and all emergencies on campus.

I appreciate your concern, and thank you for expressing it to the college.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX

Vice President for Student Affairs
& Enrollment Management

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30 cal slob
May 9, 2007, 05:47 PM
i just about crapped my pants ... i thought you were talking about NYU (in the City). lol.

Dorryn
May 9, 2007, 05:57 PM
You could be in the Witness Protection Program, related to the President, personally blessed by the Pope and Muhammed, and NYC would laugh at you if you requested to CCW.

30 cal slob
May 9, 2007, 06:24 PM
but if you're the lead singer of Aerosmith and have some free tickets to barter for a carry permit, then yer a shoo-in.

Run&Shoot
May 9, 2007, 07:02 PM
I will bet dollars to donuts (not much of a bet any more these days is it?) that if you sent such a letter they would dismiss you from the graduate program as a troublemaker and possible threat.

I imagine they love the control they have over individual lives who have invested a few years with them and they can arbitrarily dismiss them on any flimsy grounds. Go back to start, do not pass GO, do not pass collect $200...

I would shut up and get my degree, and if it were me I would likely carry in some manner anyway but very discreetly and not blab about it. Or you could run the risk of being totally legal and defenseless. But trying to intimidate them as a graduate student likely will only get you bumped.

Perhaps an anonymous letter to the editor, or the board of trustees mentioning the possible liability risk they run by preventing students from having a means of effective self defense.

CNYCacher
May 9, 2007, 07:08 PM
It's ONLY a misdemeanor?
Really?

Dorryn
May 9, 2007, 08:38 PM
As per packing.org, yes.

heypete
May 9, 2007, 08:45 PM
Somehow, I suspect carrying a small gun like a single-stack 9mm Kel-Tec (I'm at work and can't access gunny sites other than THR so I don't know the exact model) in a SmartCarry holster would go completely unnoticed by all and be rather comfortable. Not that I'm encouraging such an action...just hypothetically.

In such an event as VT, I doubt that a lightning-fast draw time would matter, so the "deep concealment" of the SmartCarry would be more of a benefit.

roscoe
May 9, 2007, 08:49 PM
er - I have to agree. Unofficially, of course.

Aguila Blanca
May 9, 2007, 09:06 PM
Should I give up and once again just be a sheep for a few more months until I get a degree? Is there any point in replying?
No. No point whatsoever.
Should I attempt to argue a pro-gun position? Should I threaten suit or even imply legal means if I were to be attacked as a result of their policy?
IMHO, no. You will attract unnecessary attention and be singled out for scrutiny.
Would it be rude or in any way "non-THR" to bother replying?
Not rude or non-high road, but a waste of time and effort.
I dont want to insult or offend, especially if it appears theyve made up their minds. It would also be a waste of time to craft a response if they wont bother to read it. Obviously, the position the university has is a little ignorant, but so are most universities. I just want to do the right thing.
Was there anything about the reply you received to suggest that they might not have made up their minds? It seemed rather clearly stated to me.

Focus on getting your degree, and watch your 6 o'clock.

WeThePeople
May 9, 2007, 09:15 PM
I am almost ashamed to admit that I put up with the same policy at the university that I went to for my BS and JD. I really had no choice. No university that I looked into didn't have such a policy in place. I needed to go to college and grad school and figured that it was worth the sacrifice. I did, initially anyway, try to get them to change their minds, but I was met with the same exact response; no real reason, just no.

mek42
May 9, 2007, 10:24 PM
Ok, this is a little late, but I would not have made any reference to the first letter in the second letter.

I might also have been a bit vague about what I was asking for. Perhaps something like: "Dear Sir: Would you please grant me the administrative permission mentioned in NY State Consolidated Laws Penal Code 265.nn." where nn is the exact number of the section specifying this law (it might be section 400.something instead). If there was a way to reference the Penal Code by number instead of using the word "Penal" I would probably do that also.

Having received the letter that you did though, the only reply I might make would be to say "Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter. I appreciate that you have decided to accept full corporate and individual liability for my safety from violence while on campus as well as commuting to and from campus. My attorney is very happy to have a copy of our communications."

I would also make sure that copies of these communications were at (at best) an attorney's office and at the very least in a safe place separate from your residence. Make sure that your loved ones know to sue the school, president and vice-president into bankruptcy if you are ever the victim of violence while at or commuting to or from school (or witness to - emotional pain and suffering suits are the American way now).

I wonder if it would be possible to find out how many requests / approvals the universities in NY have had.

another okie
May 9, 2007, 10:59 PM
Let it go. If you send any more letters or emails you will be marking yourself in their minds as a "dangerous gun nut" and invite scrutiny of your person, your car, your transcript, and your backpack.

Raising the issue is good. You put the idea in their minds. People are not convinced about such things overnight, or even in a week or a month. But they have to believe it's their idea, and if you are persistent they will raise their mental defenses.

another okie
May 9, 2007, 11:01 PM
Let it go. If you send any more letters or emails you will be marking yourself in their minds as a "dangerous gun nut" and invite scrutiny of your person, your car, your transcript, and your backpack.

Raising the issue is good. You put the idea in their minds. People are not convinced about such things overnight, or even in a week or a month. But they have to believe it's their idea, and if you are persistent they will raise their mental defenses.

qajaq59
May 10, 2007, 08:00 AM
Just be the sheep until you get out of there. It's all well and good to be a martyr but it also hurts.

Dr. Dickie
May 10, 2007, 08:16 AM
There is likely going to be only one thing and one thing only that will motivate them, money.
I would write back, explain that I was keeping a file or all correspondence, explain that you can legally can carry in the state, and ask them for a clarification that they are accepting all legal responsibility for your safety, since they are denying you your ability to defend yourself.
If you have a friend who is a lawyer that could write the letter, even better.
Worse case, you get their pulse up a bit and force them to think about what they are actually doing.

DragonFire
May 10, 2007, 09:58 AM
I think the part about preventing another incident like VA Tech, may have hurt your case rather than help. I'm sure the university doesn't want people trying to act as security.

Though I don't think that was your true intent, I can see how the administration could see it that way.

DogBonz
May 10, 2007, 10:05 AM
Explain that you understand their fears, but that they are unfounded. Then quote your source where you found that you may CCW with the Presidents permision. Also include that if something should happen to you on school grounds because you were denied your rights, the you will seek to hold the university and her responsible financially.

trickyasafox
May 10, 2007, 10:08 AM
I go to fordham university in nyc, and it's something i've had to deal with my entire undergrad, and will continue to deal with my entire grad. if your school is like mine i'll bet they didn't read the letter, just saw the word: gun, firearm, etc and denied.

they could care less if you are a purple heart, metal of honor winning hero, they are convinced that if mother theresa had a gun, she'd have off'd some people and that they are the root of all that is evil in this world.

Dorryn
May 10, 2007, 10:10 AM
'm sure the university doesn't want people trying to act as security.


Well yeah, I want to be security for myself! The place is a sieve and a block from many of the shooting/gang violence areas.

The frustrating thing is that I intend to respect the law... and be a potential victim... it just galls me that I have the legal right to defend myself everywhere except a facility/service I pay thousands upon thousands of dollars to attend.

geekWithA.45
May 10, 2007, 10:12 AM
Analysis:

The leaders of your school are suffering from policy paralysis.

Policy paralysis occurs when deviation from policy becomes grounds for disciplinary action or termination, regardless of nobility of intent.

The converse of this is also true in this situation: no matter how bad the outcome of following established policy is, the "nuremburg" defense of "I was following established policy" is a get out of trouble free card.

The bottom line:

Not worth the effort.

You're on your own.

trickyasafox
May 10, 2007, 10:12 AM
i see your in buffalo, if you go to UB south campus is a bit rough, i don't know much about buff state.

budney
May 10, 2007, 10:16 AM
There is likely going to be only one thing and one thing only that will motivate them, money.
I would write back, explain that I was keeping a file or all correspondence, explain that you can legally can carry in the state, and ask them for a clarification that they are accepting all legal responsibility for your safety, since they are denying you your ability to defend yourself. If you have a friend who is a lawyer that could write the letter, even better.

+10--that's an awesome idea.

IANAL, so I have no idea if such a letter would have legal force, but it gets to the heart of the matter: if they take away your ability to defend yourself, then they are accepting responsibility for defending you.

If VA Tech were liable for any harm suffered on campus, you can bet your bippy they'd be considering mandatory CCW. :D

--Len.

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