[Ian11]

As I posted on an earlier post I expressed interest in acquiring a snub nose .357/.38 for close range self defense. I plan to load it with .38 +P then switch to .357 Mag 110 grain or Federal 130 Personal Protection .357 once I feel competent enough.

Is a .38 +P from a snub pretty comparable to a .380 in your opinion? I'm aware of Marshall/Sanow's stopping power "statistics" and Ammolabs's findings. Yeah, its pretty dismal but the snub Ruger SP-101 I'm considering is one of those "better to have a gun than not having one at all" kind of guns.:uhoh:


*By the way anyone know where I can get 158 grain LSWC in .38? I hear this is the optimal load in .38

[SteelyDan]

Well, I'm probably unqualified to offer a reliable opinion, but I do believe that, in selecting a close range self-defense gun, the "line" is kind of drawn somewhere between the .380s and the .38s, with the .38s being on the "right" side of the line. And with +P ammo, the line is even more clear. I'd get an SP-101 over a .380 in a heartbeat, unless recoil sensitivity was a major issue.

[Jim March]

Here's my take: in the debate over 380 vs. 38+P in a snubby, the raw energy numbers don't tell the whole story.

Basically, the snub has other advantages: heavier bullet weights increasing the penetration depth at these marginal performance levels, and the ability to design nosecone shapes for maximum hollowpoint expansion independent of the need for feed-ramp reliability (because wheelguns don't have feed issues.

There are a very small number of 38+Ps I'd trust to perform in a snubby. Two that I can get easy and have tested well in gelatin (both plain and denim-wrapped, tested in 2" barrels) are:

1) Winchester 130grain Supreme +P: it's a JHP with a freakin' HUGE hollowpoint cavity. I'd be willing to bet that a cavity that big just cannot work with a semi-auto. It'd hang up on the feed ramp.

2) The "old standard": 158grain plain soft lead hollowpoint (LSWC-HP) +P. Known as the "Treasury Police load", Chicago load", "Metro load" and similar for various police agencies that used to use it going literally all the way back to the 1920s. It's a primitive, old-school hollowpoint but it tends to expand fairly well at modest snubby-grade velocity and it's got the weight to punch deep. It's cheap, low-tech, not flashy and has been phased out completely by Federal, Remington has almost halted production and only Winchester still takes it seriously and even then it's hard to find.

There's maybe a couple more that are worth talking about in snubs. Either of those will get the job done. I really don't think there's a 380 load that are as good, even if we're talking 3" barrel 380 versus 2" barrel snubby wheelgun.

That said, try and get a 3" barrel snubby instead of a 2". If you're looking at Ruger SP101s, and you want the bobbed-hammer version which is only available in 2", get the 3" and have the hammer bobbed - it's a dirt-cheap bit of surgery. The extra inch of tube will help with velocity and expansion reliability and won't really have much effect on concealability unless you're going to try front-pocket carry, which I feel all the 5-shot 38/357s are too big for.

[WebHobbit]

I would caution anyone from purchasing a 3 inch 5 shot for a CCW piece!

I just bought an SP101 to replace my battered 640 and I at first was set on ordering a 3 inch but then decided against it after I discovered NONE of the big leather holster companies make an OWB pancake style holster for a 3 inch 5 shot. :fire:

Galco did make a nice rig for the SP101 3 inch (still listed on their site) BUT they are discontinuing it due to lack of demand. I was told by a Galco rep that they still have some of the left-handed version left but there will be no more made. :(

Galco is my preffered maker but I also checked out Bianchi and DeSanti (among others) and NONE of them make a pancake for a 3 inch SP101.

So while I LOVE the idea of a 3 inch SP101 it's pretty much OUT unless you wanna spend BIG bucks on a truly custom-made holster (or can make your own).

[Frenchy]

Don Hume makes a variety of holsters for the 3" SP101. I've owned four of Hume's holsters and have been quite satisfied.
DON HUME HOLSTERS (http://www.donhume.com/index.html)

[tbeb]

I feel .380 ACP is comparable to .38 special +P from a snubnose. The majority will disagree though. Having said that, I recently changed my CCW from a 12-shot .380 to a 5-shot .38 special. I reverted back to a snubby for various reasons-- mainly because, in my opinion, it is one of the best guns for pocket carry.

[RUT]

>>I recently changed my CCW from a 12-shot .380 to a 5-shot .38 special<<

Are you allowed only to carry that weapon... the one showing on your CCW?

[ACP230]

I currently carry a Smith M649 with Cor-Bon 158 grain LSWCHP (a discontinued load).

I find that I can shoot better groups at 50 feet and 25 yards with a Manurhin (Walther) PP in .32 ACP.

A .380 auto might make sense even though it is lower in power if:
1. You can conceal it.

2. You shoot it a lot better than you do a snubby.

I don't own a .380 so am sticking to the .38.

[Penman]

The SWCLHP .38+P load has a lot of history, with geood results for a .38 Special. You won't find .380 loads with comparable results.

[DDGator]

I realize that felt recoil doesnt translate into stopping power, but try shooting .380 in a light gun (like my P-3AT) and then shoot some .38 Corbon +P in an airweight S&W of heavier but comparable weight. To me there is no comparision that the .38 is generating a lot more engergy.

Whether this translates into stopping power, I don't know. I suspect it probably does.

[popeye]

RUT...Indiana doesn't have any restrictions on carry gun. If you've got a permit, you carry whatever you want. No test, no quaifying, no specific gun.

[Jim March]

Heh. Every holster I make is 100% custom to you and the gun, max price is $40. But I only make a few for local friends, so I can fit it right to them.

Making your own holster in either kydex or leather is NOT that hard. Esp. IWB, where cosmetics aren't as crucial.

[Poohgyrr]

I have always heard of good results with the hollow point version of the 158 gr LSWC.

[Bob]

Hey Web: Before I started making my own holsters I bought from Milt Sparks. I'd bet if you call them they'd build whatever you need and do it right. Don't give up just 'cause you don't see it. Or, you could take the plunge and learn how to make your own. That is an a blast.
Bob

[Mannlicher]

WebHobbit says:" just bought an SP101 to replace my battered 640 and I at first was set on ordering a 3 inch but then decided against it after I discovered NONE of the big leather holster companies make an OWB pancake style holster for a 3 inch 5 shot. "

Any decent leather guy, like Andrews Custom Leather, can provide you with a nice IWB, or OWB holster. Mine is a tension hold, saddle style, no retention strap, since my 3 inch Smith Mod 60 is hammerless. I think the price was about $80, which is a steal for a hand made, custom holster.

and......... a 158 LSWC from a snubbie blows a .380 of ANY kind clean away. Jim March is on target with his comments.

[Jim March]

Any leather holster for a 2" snubby can have the bottom lopped off and used for a 3".

:D

(Seriously though, as long as the gun is stainless, this will work great.)

[WebHobbit]

Jim - I suppose that would work but I'm not about to spend 60+ on a nice quality Galco holster and then take scissor/knife to it.

:what:

That would look awful! :barf:

Call me crazy but I appreciate the beauty of the workmanship and styling of better holsters such as Galco.

Also I rather like having the full length of the barrel protected by the holster as I have had occasion to bump into things. ;)

[makdaddy03]

I like my 38spl Taurus and Rossi snubbies. I feed them 158gr SWCHP lead or the 158 gr SJHP. I also like the 380acp for the more rds the merrier.:evil:

[38Mike]

Your dealer should be able to order you some ammo.
Mine just ordered me 2 boxes of Win. 158 gr LSWC-HP.... $17.95 a box......

[Old Fuff]

Web Hobbit:

There are too many advantages to a 3" barrel to give up because of the holster situation. If you can't find a pancake consider a beltslide style that is open at the muzzle end and will work with any barrel length. I did this with a Colt Detective Special with a 3" and it works fine. It will also carry a 5" Police Positive Special as well.

[braindead0]

.380 ACP 100gr loads are running (from a variety of powder manufacturers) between 900-1000FPS

Compared to .38special 110gr loads which are all > 1000FPS. Or even better, 158GR loads which run from around 750 to the 990's (published data, not 100% sure of barrel length). Add to the mix +P and I think even with a 2" snubby you should be able to get 800+ FPS with 158Gr.

.38+P can be roughly 25% more power than .380. If you reload (bad according to some for personal protection) and have a firearm that can handle .380+P the gap is smaller, but not by too much.

[Jim March]

I have no doubt you can equal the energy level with a 380. With the few 4" barrel 380s out there, you can top the energy of a 38snub.

But you can't top the effectiveness. Bullet design matters too.

Another thing: all these small guns are often used as close-range fighters. And it's at "bad breath range" that the snubby wheelgun becomes the king of the fighting handguns, bar none. They can't go out of battery on muzzle contact, and are difficult to grapple away (even in 3", much less in 2"). They're generally tough enough to use as a dire-emergency bludgeon and at least be able to crank off the five or six on board; if the ejector rod is exposed, it could bend and then you've got reload issues galore but the rounds in there are gonna go off.

[braindead0]

Perhaps, I do know that I can get 980fps out of 115gr FMJ's from my Makarov (+P load).

Of course as another mentioned previosly, slower speed 158GR would probably provide better penetration... I doubt you could do wrong with 158GR LSWC-HP's out of a .38....

[WT]

Some chrono date published in COMBAT HANDGUNS, August 1992. Test weapon was a Smith Model 642 - 2" snub revolver.

CB 115 jhp +P+ = 1189 fps
WW 110 jhp +P = 904 fps
RP 110 jhp +P = 965 fps
CCI 110 jhp = 822 fps
Fed 110 jhp +P = 978 fps
WW 125 jhp +P = 952 fps
RP 125 jhp +P = 988 fps
CCI 125 jhp +P = 944 fps
BH 125 jhp +P = 966 fps
Fed 125 jhp +P = 995 fps
ww 158 lhp +P = 825 fps
RP 158 lhp +P = 839 fps
Fed 158 gr lhp +P = 845 fps
CCI 158 lhp +P = 815 fps
Fed 158 lhp +P Nyclad = 845 fps
WW 158 swc +P = 819 fps
RP 158 swc +P = 805 fps
CCI 159 swc+P = 799 fps
WW 158 rnl = 653 fps
RP 158 rnl = 616 fps
Fed 148 rnl = 644 fps

[WT]

2 typos - should read 158 gr.

Sorry ' bout that.

[Jim March]

Per most of the testing I've seen, 158 lead hollowpoints based on the Keith SWC profile will expand at speeds of between 825 and 875. At 900 to 1,000 they're right at their peak.

This is why I like 38 snubbies that have TIGHT gaps. Mine is at .002", so my odds of hitting 850fps with the Winchester or Remington variants is quite good. I trust this load at that speed. At 800fps they're marginal but still probably the best choice.

I would recommend *against* the Federal Nyclad 158+P hollowpoint. Based on the tests I've seen, the plastic coating retards retention just enough to screw 'em up in a snubby. In a 4" or especially 6", sure, no problem.

[Tamara]

...I checked the .38's I have currently loaded.

Three J-frames: one has 147gr +P+ Hydrashoks, one has 158gr +P LSWC-HP's, and one has 125gr +P Golden Sabers.

Two K-frames: one has 158gr +P LSWC-HP's, and one has 148gr wadcutters (an old Airweight).

Obviously, I'm real dogmatic on this topic... ;)

[SkunkApe]

Article on .38 Special loads for a snubbie:


http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

[Glamdring]

Tamara: Is there a reason for all the mixing of ammo for same caliber? :confused:

Do they shoot to point of aim with fixed sights or?

Most of my guns have just two types of ammo (one for expanding and one that doesn't).

My P11 though gets fed whatever is nearby since so far it feeds everything the same (malfs couple of times per box of 50). I keep hoping to find something that feeds well in it (hasn't happened yet). Oh well it will get replaced by a J frame before long anyway

[Tamara]

Tamara: Is there a reason for all the mixing of ammo for same caliber?

Sure is; it's what was closest at hand when the gun was loaded. ;)

The Model 12 has wadcutters in it because it's an 1966-vintage alloy-frame revolver and I don't want to do anything to hasten its demise. The 158gr LSWC-HP +P's are my preferred loading, but I've bought other stuff because it was a deal or just to try out (hence the Hydrashoks and Golden Sabers.)

[Cal4D4]

Years back, I got put on a jury for a murder trial. Weapon was a .38 snubby of low quality (RG possibly) shooting a 200gr RN. Lowest performance load in a marginal platform complete with multiple misfires. Shooter hit victim's lower chest cavity at about 10 feet. Slug cut thru nearside rib and bounced back off farside rib. Both lungs involved as well as part of heart. Victim chased shooter 20 yards before collapsing. Placement is everything.

[Dave Markowitz]

Ammoman.com has Federal's version of the FBI load (158 grain LSWCHP +P).

KY Imports (www.kyimports.com) has Remington's.

[SnWnMe]

380 vs 38. My most truthful answer is: Don't lose sleep over it.

Pick the gun you feel comfy with and stoke it with a reputable load.

Also, about the SP101, since you said that you will eventually load up with 357s anyway, just pick a good +P load from the Ammolabs tests or the G&A Pocketful of Dynomite article and call it a day.

[Majic]

Remington still lists the 158 grain LHPSWC on their website.

[Dave T]

My experience in teaching cops (6 years) and civilian CCW (9 years) is that very few if any can shoot 2" five shot 38 Special revolvers well. I not talking about just being able to hit a target but rather doing so quickly, with your +P loads, from concealment and that includes follow up shots.

I always hear the 2" 38 is just for close range use... How is it you can assure the assailant is going to cooperate and do things the way you want???

My answer to my students who ask about 2" 38s is to show them the Kel-Tec P-11. It is the same length and hight of a J-Frame S&W. It is thinner and weighs less than the steel models. Yes it has a long trigger pull, just like a DA revolver. The pull is set at 8 pounds which is better than most any DA revolver. It holds 11 rounds of 9mm, which is more effecient out of a short barrel than the black powder vintage/designed 38 Special. I won't even get into the subject of reloading as it isn't fair to the revolver. And yes, I've heard the argument that if you need to reload...blah, blah, blah. See paragraph 2 above.

Every ballistic test I've seen, done by someone with a scientific background, indicates the 2" 38 Special looses so much velocity as to be marginal at best. Despite that the dogma is to load +P rounds (less control) or go to Magnums (almost no control) to solve the problem. I don't get it, but then I don't understand people who carry 25 autos or 32 ACP either. Neither approach seems to be taking this subject seriously.

As always, YMMV!

[WebHobbit]

or go to Magnums (almost no control) to solve the problem

My recent range session with my snub SP101 disagrees.

I'm not that great of a shot but yet I was able to fire a 7 inch 5 shot group (well centered but slightly low) of 125 grain Golden Saber .357 Magnum ammo into a sillohette (sp?) target at 10 yards.

No the above won't win me any awards or competitions but I am confidant that it would have put down a BG.

[Majic]

Teaching novice shooters I can agree that there may be problems with high powered snubs. Experienced shooters have been using them for years with very good success.
Sounds like someone is playing up the semi-auto vs revolver theme, but that is good as we each are allowed our choices. Just step away from your novice shooters and look around. You will find some very good shooters using snubs very effectively.

Ability to carry more bullets means nothing when most situations are solved with very few shots fired.
The glowing ballistics most refer to for the 9mm also comes from 4" barrels, not the snub models.

[Gewehr98]

I always hear the 2" 38 is just for close range use... How is it you can assure the assailant is going to cooperate and do things the way you want???

You know the one, it talks about most defensive shootings happening within 21 feet.

Which seems just fine for a 2" J-Frame loaded with those horrible blackpowder-vintage heavy bullets.

It almost sounds as if a prospective CCW student in Dave's class would be run out of the class and told not to return until they had a Kel-Tec P-11. Good for the folks in Cocoa, FL, maybe they could even send Dave a buck or two...

[Dr.Rob]

The biggest difference in "power" between a 380 and a .38 is bullet weight. Just about any 38 will out penetrate a 380.

Most 380's are doing 1000fps, but with a bullet that only weighs 90 grains.

Your 38 +p LSWCHP is doing almost 900 fps, with a bullet that weighs half again as much.

.380/38 is the minimum caliber for a serious defensive pistol, and I feel the 38 edges out the 380 for novice shooters.

[444]

It didn't get any comments, so I hope I am not going to kill your thread also.

I recently attended the Gunsite 250 Basic Defensive Handgun course. This was my second course at Gunsite and for both courses, the facility provided a notebook filled with good information on everything from Lead exposure, to firearms safety, to more in-depth information on the course material. In both notebooks there were very interesting ballistic studies pertaining to the weapon you are training on. In this class obviously the information pertained to handgun cartridges. The studies were carried out at the California Highway Patrol Academy Weapons Training Department Indoor firing Range by Gary K. Roberts, DDS who is a Lieutenant Commander in the U.S. Naval Reserve, performing wound ballistic research and combat casualty care training. One such study included in this material was entitled; Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant. Acceptable perfromance was arbitrarily defined as meeting both a minimum penetration of 12.0" and expansion of .55". Weapons used were a Colt Mustang Pocket Lite, S&W 60-3 with a 3" barrel and a S&W Model 38 with a 2" barrel.
Boiled down to a nutshell, the study found that All of the .380 ACP JHP bullets tested offered generally inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration, as well as inadequate expansion. In .38 Special however, he found that The .38 Special bullets which offered the most reliable wounding effects for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use in revolvers of two and three inch barrel lengths and were most likely to provide rapid incapacitation were the Remington +P 158 grain LSWCHP (R38S12) and Winchester +P 147 grain JHP (RA38147HP). The Federal +P+ 147 grain "Hydra-Shok" JHP (P38HS2) bullet offers outstanding performance in revolvers with at least a 3" barrel, but should not be used in 2" barrel weapons due to insufficient expansion. The Winchester +P 138 grain JHP (SXTS35P) bullet offers acceptable performance in 2" barrel revolvers, but should not be used in longer barrel lengths due to insufficient bullet penetration.

[Jim March]

I *think* the 138 Winchester has been replaced by the 130 +P Supreme. Which is a superb round.

The other one everybody forgets about is the Gold Dot, when driven fast enough and when loaded with the big-JHP-cavity variant meant for 38, versus the projectile version of the same 125grains meant for (faster) 357 use. Speer's own 38+P is good stuff, the Georgia Arms is probably the fastest, Proloads and Black Hills are known for accuracy. I'd love to see speed comparisons between the four. And they're available as a component, so you could brew 'em up weird or have Weshoot2 do likewise :).

Gold Dots are neat because they resist "over-speed problems". So if you had a 6" 357 and 38snubbie, you could load a Gold Dot 125+P in both and despite a couple hundred FPS difference, it'll work well in both. Load a Winchester 130+P Supreme 38 in a 6" tube and I'll bet you good money it'll come utterly unglued (as in, shred the nosecone, dropping back to about 40cal after expanding, lose about 25% total projectile weight).

[22luvr]

First off, no, my hands do not like shooting .357 mags out of a 12 oz Scandium 340SC but I can under rapid fire and keep the five shots in an 8" paper plate-sized target at 7 yards.

That's shooting across the size of a larger living room.

Snubs take practice but with the proper training, grip technique, and repeated sessions, it pays off.

[abaddon]

Jim March,

You said that a 2" .38/.357 snubby is too big for pocket carry. Is this true of everyone? For instance a 5' 11" 165 pound guy? Have any others been able to conceal a snubby in a pocket?

Jeff

[schapman43]

You said that a 2" .38/.357 snubby is too big for pocket carry. Is this true of everyone? For instance a 5' 11" 165 pound guy? Have any others been able to conceal a snubby in a pocket?


I'm 6'2" 230 lbs but cant fit much more than change in the pockets of my Wranglers. Its all about what you wear.

[RCS]

My LW j-frames are loaded with 148gr wc based on the recommendation given by Dr Roberts, the testing done at www.ammolab.com, and my ability to control and shoot this round very well out to 15-20 yds.

MY belief is that for .22/.32/.380/.38spl(in a 2 inch bbl) penetration is desired more then expansion (given good shot placement) from these calibers.

regards

[Jim March]

:scrutiny:

I'm 6'4", 270+ lbs and it ain't worked for me yet.

I dunno, maybe the pants type matters a lot. Once you get up past a 46" waist, your pants options drop precipitously :uhoh:.

[WebHobbit]

I've carried my steel framed 640 and the other day I even carried my SP101 in the front pocket before! But I prefer my OWB belt holster. It's more comfortable and conceales better. I only do the pocket carry when I'm in a hurry to run to the drug-store and I don't wanna put all my "gear" on..but only for short quick trips.

[444]

I have been pocket carrying my Model 60 all week. I have it in a Kramer pocket holster in my right rear pocket. The butt sticks out above the pocket and is easily covered with a T-Shirt. Yesterday I did my standard range drills drawing each time from the pocket holster. It isn't as good as a belt holster, but easier to conceal. I am going to do the same drills today. Then back to the salt mines tomorrow.

I can carry this same set-up in my front pocket and it is actually comfortable and of course much more concealed. The gun is hidden from view no matter what position I am in. However, it would require to great a change for me to carry like this. For the last 25 years or so I have carried my change, my keys, and my knife in my front right pocket and I am not going to change now. I long ago designated my right hip from 90 degrees to 180 degrees as where my gun is kept. This covers everything from a standard belt holster, to an IWB, to this pocket holster; the gun is in relatively the same position at all times.

[SAWBONES]

Anybody who can't easily carry a J-frame snubby in a proper pocket holster is either VERY diminutive (less than 3' tall) or wears pants that are WAY too tight.
Pleated-front Dockers-style pants, cargo-style pants and any number of others (NOT including tight jeans) work well.
Best.

[DDGator]

I carry a j-frame is a pocket holster (mine) all the time in my right front pocket. Its easiest, for me, in jean shorts--which is my standard non-work wardrobe for about 9 months out of the year. Its hard to see when standing. When sitting (people normally dont see your pockets when sitting) there appears to be something in my pocket -- but could be about anything.

LOTS of people pocket carry -- it is definitely do-able.


Duane
www.kdholsters.com

[22luvr]

I'm 5'-10" and 205 lbs and have a 38" waist. For me, pocket carry is easy.

I seldom wear jeans and opt mostly for Docker-style pleated-front pants and the same design in short pants for summer wear. My 12 oz 340SC goes in the right front pocket in an Uncle Mike's size 3 soft flexible pocket holster.

The ony time it looks a little lumpy is when I sit or squat.

Some pockets are shallower than others; you certainly don't want the grip or backstrap peeking out the top of your pocket.

When standing or walking that sucker is undetectable and the entire package: gun, ammo, and holster, still weigh less than a pound.

Another advantage of the hammerless S&W snubs is that they are practically "melted" from the factory. Mine is finished off beautifully and very slick on the draw.

[abaddon]

yeah, I just went to the range today and rented a bunch of .357 revolvers. I put them in my front pocket to see what it looked like and could conceal it even without a holster. I really liked the S&W scandium one - it felt like it wasn't even there! I may have to buy one.

Jeff