BATF pulling my leg ?


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pollpegj
May 10, 2007, 12:15 AM
I have a Yugo SKS for sale on a local forum. I have man interested by the name "Al" and I think the BATF might be trying to get me to do some illegal activities.

First message-
Al-Does your SKS have a 30rd magazine? Can you send me a picture?

My Reply- No, You can buy them online though. I attached a picture for you.

Second Message-
Al-Ill buy it whats your address so I can send a check to you?

My reply, a little suspicious at the time- I cannot ship you the firearm. I do not have a FFL. I will only sell face to face, cash only. You must be 18 years of age to purchase. Plus I believe 30rd magazines are illegal. You wouldn't happen to be the BATF would you?

Thats all so far, so am I being a little over protective or is somebody playing games with me.

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jlbraun
May 10, 2007, 12:16 AM
Where are you located? 30rd mags are legal in most states

boredelmo
May 10, 2007, 12:17 AM
Yep, BATF. Better start running.

pollpegj
May 10, 2007, 12:18 AM
I havent done anything illegal. I live in Iowa and I believe the 30rd magazines are illegal.

Sam
May 10, 2007, 12:19 AM
I think you have come across an idiot.

The BAT Men have done some silly stuf but I think they are a bit busy for that one.

Sam

cslinger
May 10, 2007, 12:19 AM
No point in calling them out so to speak. Just follow all the laws as all of us should do. No muss no fuss. Either he is a legitimate buyer who doesn't know the law, a legitimate buyer who knows the laws and is trying to circumvent them or the BATFE/LEO

You follow and explain the law and one of a few things happens.

1-You teach somebody the law and education is a good thing.
2-You run off a potential felon/illegal purchaser, keeping the gun out of the wrong hands.
3-You show the BATFE that we are law abiding citizens.

All win win IMHO.

Follow the law to the letter and you are good to go.

JesseL
May 10, 2007, 12:21 AM
Don't you only need an FFL to receive a firearm? I thought anybody could ship a firearm to an FFL.

cslinger
May 10, 2007, 12:24 AM
In most states anybody can ship the firearm following the shippers regulations. For example most shippers require firearms to be shipped 2 day air or other expedited method. The receiver when crossing state lines MUST be a FFL. If the gun is a curio and or relic it can be sold to a Curio and relic license holder in most states.

In all cases it is best to get an ink signed copy of the receivers FFL, although I believe the BATFE has indicated that a legible fax is OK proof.

State laws can be and are in some case more strict so YMMV.

Chris

pollpegj
May 10, 2007, 12:28 AM
I know I havent done anything wrong and wont. But its just like a cop being behind you with his lights on when driving, you keep thinking to yourself, what did I do wrong? Then he pulls around you.

kingpin008
May 10, 2007, 12:32 AM
Be advised, there have been cases of Nigerian-type scammers trying to buy guns illegally from people who list guns for sale on auction sites and classifieds. The possibility is there that it is a BATFE/LEO trying to bait you, but I'd agree with others, in that they'd have to be pretty bored to randomly try to bait someone who hadn't ever been on their radar. Much more likely to be someone who is either A. Completely ignorant of gun buying laws B. Trying to make an illegal purchase on purpose or C. Someone trying to make an illegal purchase on purpose, through some sort of scam.

be wary, just as you already are. State the laws, don't call them out, and see where it goes. If it seems like an individual tryintg to scam you/otherwise make an illegal purchase, maybe think about forwarding their information to the proper authorities, as they may be worth having a look at.

Good luck sellin' that SKS, by the way. :D

cslinger
May 10, 2007, 12:35 AM
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but in my exp. with ATF agents they really don't care a whole hell of a lot about guns in general. Bombs yes, gun running yes, illegal importation etc. yes, but single incident things like this not so much.

Years ago I had the unpleasant exp. of speaking with some agents regarding some potential nastyness at my workplace at the time. I was not involved, nor did anything happen or would have but questions needed to be asked, and should have been. At any rate I mentioned I have several totally legal firearms but don't even reload for feel of blowing my fingers off. They laughed and said we don't give a sh$@ about guns. Bombs on the other hand are serious business.

In another incident I was inquiring about some magazines I had during the ban that I was unsure of legality. The agents laughed and asked if I was planning or knocking over a Mapco or killing somebody? I laughed and said of course not. They said then you have nothing to worry about. Its not worth our time and paperwork but we will tack it on if you really do something wrong.

kingpin008
May 10, 2007, 12:36 AM
Also - to my paranoid mind, "What's your address I'll send a check to you" sounds a heck of a lot like "What's your address I'll send myself out to rob you blind."

Careful with ol' Al. he may be a goblin in disguise. :scrutiny:

MDW GUNS
May 10, 2007, 12:37 AM
Any black helicopter flying lately around your house?? :neener:
The guy does not know the law or is banned form buying a gun and is fishing for someone to sell a gun this way. The ATF is busy with other things and I don't know if something like this would not fall under entrapment!

For your protection, only make a private sales to someone you know.
Otherwise use a FFL.
If you don't know the buyer, how do you know that this guy is not planning something like those six terrorists in NJ.
If your rifle is part of something like this, you can be sure the ATF will visit you!

kingpin008
May 10, 2007, 12:41 AM
I had an odd experience with a P22 I was trying to sell. A woman from Ohio contacted me about it (i had it listed on a forum i visit) and offered me $200. I said deal, let me have your FFL's info and we'll get the ball rolling. We talked back and forth through email for awhile, but when she still hadn't sent the FFL I finally pushed her for it, explaining I couldn't sell it to her any other way - Silence. Never heard from her again. She said she worked for a newspaper in Ohio, so the closest I can figure is maybe she was trying to get info for some "OMGWTFBBQ" type story about how "gun traffickers" are getting firearms from illegal interstate sources.

There are a ton of shady people out there these days..

hotpig
May 10, 2007, 12:42 AM
YFI, Yugos are starting to dry up. The longer you keep the gun the more it is worth.

boredelmo
May 10, 2007, 12:56 AM
Sorry, it was sarcasm. Most likely you have nothing to worry about.

I made some videos of my guns and posted them on youtube for the benefit of buyers being able to see the action on them.

I have had 12 messages with idiots going "Thats full auto right? But $300 is too much!". i just ignore.

Majic
May 10, 2007, 01:27 AM
Also - to my paranoid mind, "What's your address I'll send a check to you" sounds a heck of a lot like "What's your address I'll send myself out to rob you blind."
Well without the address just where is the buyer suppose to send the funds?

pollpegj
May 10, 2007, 01:30 AM
Im not giving out my address. Id meet him in my apartment parking lot maybe. Plus why would he just send me some money without seeing or even talking about shipping or coming to pick it up.

bratch
May 10, 2007, 01:34 AM
In some states it is legal to ship a long arm to another resident without a FFL.

heypete
May 10, 2007, 01:42 AM
Be advised, there have been cases of Nigerian-type scammers trying to buy guns illegally from people who list guns for sale on auction sites and classifieds.

*nods* I had one of those types when I listed a gun on GunBroker. Started out with an IP address in New Jersey, then somehow switched to Nigeria (either using a partner in the US, a proxy, or perhaps was travelling?). Totally ignorant of the law, and said he'd send a shipping company with the FFL to my location (which I never revealed).

For legitimate transfers, I recommend having a PO box at your local post office to receive checks and whatnot. Very useful to separate your mailing address from your physical address.

As far as I know, 30 round magazines for SKSs are not illegal in most states, though they tend to be unreliable.

PotatoJudge
May 10, 2007, 02:07 AM
Don't know the laws in Iowa, but here in Texas nothing he asked was illegal or suspicious (except trying to pay without a shipped price). Just ask for a postal money order instead of a personal check and that'd be it.

Am I missing something?

roscoe
May 10, 2007, 02:47 AM
The receiver when crossing state lines MUST be a FFL.
Not true. I bought my dada a rifle and sent it to him. Same with my buddy. You cannot make a SALE across state lines without a FFL.

skinnyguy
May 10, 2007, 03:02 AM
If you've got alarms going off in your head, listen to them. You may be totally wrong, and you may never know. But if you are totally right, you'll have a good looooooong time to sit in your cell and cuss yourself for not listening to the alarms.

Tell whoever "Al" is that you have another buyer interested, and you're just going to sell it to that person.

10 Ring Tao
May 10, 2007, 03:45 AM
None of those questions seem out of place. It sounds more like you put up an ad that was devoid of useful information like a picture and good description of the gun.

Asking for an address to send the money is a logical next step when you decide you'd like to buy a gun from someone.

Anyway, unless IA has some silly laws I'm not aware of...........

-You don't need an outgoing FFL. You ship to the receiving FFL in the other state. If the gun crosses state lines, it must be sent to an FFL.

-If the buyer is in the same state, you don't need an FFL on either end.

-There is no silly limit on magazine capacity in IA.

gaudio5
May 10, 2007, 04:01 AM
correct me if im worng but isnt it illegal to change some sks rifles in anyway?

aaronrkelly
May 10, 2007, 05:03 AM
I live in Iowa - we have NO magazine limit laws. You can have a 30 round magazine, no problems.

Its also NOT illegal to ship a rifle without an FFL. You must ship it to an FFL if the buyer is out of state......however you can do the shipping yourself. Just get a copy of the buyers FFL and send it to the address. If the buyer is in state you dont even need to go thru an FFL, just meet him and hand him the gun or mail it to him.

How the email should have gone:

Al-Does your SKS have a 30rd magazine? Can you send me a picture?

MY reply - Nope, dont have any 30 rounders cause they are pure JUNK. Attached is a picture of the rifle.....grab a 20 rounder from TAPCO if your wanting high capacity as they are known to be quite good magazines.

Al-Ill buy it whats your address so I can send a check to you?

My address is

1234 Any St
Anytown, USA 123456

Just include a copy of the FFL I am to send it to or have them fax me a copy at (123) 456-7890.

or if hes in state

Let me know where you want to meet to pickup the rifle or the address I can send it to.




No problems, except you need to do some reading up on your state laws.

Note that in Iowa the person must have a valid permit for acquiring handguns for you to sale a handgun - just ask to see it. If he has one then your good....but he must have one.

Hkmp5sd
May 10, 2007, 05:13 AM
Not true. I bought my dada a rifle and sent it to him. Same with my buddy. You cannot make a SALE across state lines without a FFL.

Not true. You cannot TRANSFER a firearm across state lines without a FFL. The only exception is bequeathing a firearm. The firearm may be transferred directly to the new owner across state lines.

Hkmp5sd
May 10, 2007, 05:16 AM
I live in Iowa - we have NO magazine limit laws. You can have a 30 round magazine, no problems.


The problem is that if you attach a 30 round magazine to a Yugo SKS, you have violated 922(r), which prohibits the assembling of a firearm not legal for importion. The Yugo can be imported because it is a C&R firearm. If you attach the 30 round magazine, you have removed it from C&R classification. Without that classification, an SKS with a 30 round magazine is considered a "non-sporting firearm" and cannot be imported. You can use the "parts count" clause to get around this, if you desire.

aaronrkelly
May 10, 2007, 06:16 AM
Hkmp5sd.....true, I understand the 922r but appreciate the recap.

My point is the magazine isnt illegal......which is true.

30 round SKS magazines are perfectly legal in Iowa....as are any other high capacity magazines.

Thats my point.

922R is another matter all together and deals with many issues, including but not limited to after market magazines.

Deanimator
May 10, 2007, 08:19 AM
The ATF is busy with other things and I don't know if something like this would not fall under entrapment!

1. The BATFE (I REFUSE absolutely to call them "ATF".) has a very long history of finding time to do stupid and malicious things.

2. They should call it the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Entrapment. Given the choice between entrapping YOU and going after somebody who might SHOOT them, the BATFE has a tradition of going after the soft target. A very anti-gun free weekly newspaper here did a very illuminating article about their activities at gunshows.

Nobody ever stayed out of jail by underestimating the incompetence, dishonesty, sloth and malice of the BATFE.

EOD Guy
May 10, 2007, 12:12 PM
[quote]The receiver when crossing state lines MUST be a FFL. [/quote

Not true. I bought my dada a rifle and sent it to him. Same with my buddy. You cannot make a SALE across state lines without a FFL.

Then you violated Federal law at least twice. The law doesn't address sales across state lines, it addresses transfers. The BATF doesn't care about ownership, they care about possession.

tmajors
May 10, 2007, 12:48 PM
gaudio5:
correct me if im worng but isnt it illegal to change some sks rifles in anyway?

This comes up quite a bit. No it's not illegal to change sks rifles in anyway. Most sks's fall under C&R which means as a C&R they must be kept in their original configuration in order to import them.

Once you have them though you can change stuff, but if you change one thing then you have to change a bunch of things because it no longer qualifies as C&R and falls under 922(r).

To comply with 922(r) you have to change out enough parts so that there are 10 or less import parts. A typical SKS has 18 parts I believe, which means you have to change out 7 to 9 parts depending on the SKS model and manufacturer.

States like Cali might have other things you have to deal with, but most states the above is all you have to deal with on the SKS.

delta53
May 10, 2007, 03:11 PM
this thread makes me want to rethink some of my views but I will sign of instead:banghead:

MD_Willington
May 10, 2007, 06:05 PM
As imported the Yugo SKS is 922r compliant, adding a 30 round magazine to a yugo makes it non-compliant.

You need to change a few other parts to be compliant while using a 30 round magazine.

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