9mm ain't all that bad???


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Greg8098
May 10, 2007, 03:44 AM
There was once a time when I looked upon any 9mm as being a poor choice, but for a while here lately, that is the only autoloading caliber that I am interested in. I kinda see the 9 as being sort of the " .357 of the semi-autos". Just think about it, you can plink with cheap as dirt regular ball, and carry +p, or +p+, and have the roughly the equivalent of any .40 or .45. I may just be developing into a cheapskate :o , but I think a good quality 9mm such as Glock, HK, Ruger, FNH, etc, should be sufficient for any "social" situation. On top of that +p, and +p+, shouldn't have a great wear and tear effect on decently built pistols.

I don't know if the gas prices and ammo prices are starting to get to me or what, but if anybody has different views on this I would like to here them. I'm now thinking of eliminating the .357 sigs, and the .45, because even though they are great, there is nothing really special about them IMO.

P.S- The 10mm goes nowhere, its here to stay !!!

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obxned
May 10, 2007, 03:48 AM
Much better bullet design is mostly responsible for making the 9mm a decent SD cartridge. It will do the job.

(...but I'll stick to the ,45 - I'm old and set in my ways)

General Disarray
May 10, 2007, 04:35 AM
The joke at my shootin range is "Why doesn't anyone pick up 9mm brass? Cuz they don't want you lookin up their skirt".

Unfortunately that attitude kept me steering clear of 9mm for years. I've been an avid .40s&w guy. So I pick up my buddy's Beretta a few weeks ago and tore the center out of a target in zero.zero seconds with a 15 rnd clip. I paused for a long while and was like "where the hell have you been all my life?". Weird how your perspectives can change so readily, especially on beliefs you've had for years.

So I got myself a SigPro 9mm this weekend and have tore through half a case already. I don't pick up the brass, cuz of the whole skirt thing, but damn I love having my pistol stay on target. What a concept, huh?

jsebens
May 10, 2007, 05:22 AM
Personally, I can't see myself buying anything but a 9mm unless a magazine limit gets passed again; if I can only have ten rounds, I might as well go with a .45, but I'd rather carry 9mm with a high-cap magazine.

Waywatcher
May 10, 2007, 05:33 AM
With 9mm +P+, who needs a .40?

Welcome to the dark side. :evil:

Omaha-BeenGlockin
May 10, 2007, 07:20 AM
Bad subject---BUT----if there's any question of the effectiveness of the 9mm----go ask 30+ or so families in Virginia just how effective the 9mm is.

Onmilo
May 10, 2007, 09:50 AM
Look at the 9mm Parabellum this way,,,,it is a short, rimless, .38 special +P+ and the pistols allow you to carry up to three times as much ammo in the same package.
When one looks at the 9mm with an open mind it isn't so bad after all.

SaxonPig
May 10, 2007, 10:05 AM
The 9mm isn't the ballistic equal of a fully loaded .357 but it's enough. My daily carry is a S&W 659 loaded with 115 JHPs that clock 1250 from my gun. That's sufficient.

Nothing you can hold in one hand will ever be a true man-stopper. In the one gunfight I witnessed a slightly built man weighing no more than 135 pounds took 4 hits in the torso from a .45 ACP and ran nearly 100 yards before collapsing from loss of blood.

So much the awesome power of the .45 ACP.

ozwyn
May 10, 2007, 10:20 AM
I consider the 9mm round just large enough to be effective to stop most human threats, but small enough to let you get away with a little less range time if you are budget/time constrained.

Lack of recoil helps reduce flinching. Shot placement goes a long way to making the round effective.

Yes, it is a compromise round, and yes, it is a proven round.

Not sure I would go much under 9mm, but 9mm works well if the person pulling the trigger does his/her job well.

I really like the .45 and I have shot and enjoyed to 10mm, but I don't always have the time to practice well with them.

alucard0822
May 10, 2007, 10:34 AM
I cannot count how many times I got flamed over my love for a certain 9mm beretta 92fs, it is about the easiest centerfire pistol I have to shoot well, never jams, holds 15 and is great fun to pop 15 in a couple seconds. The "limited effectiveness" of 9mm has been mostly attributed to fmj ball ammo. Modern gold dots, HST and Rangers are very effective not only for the recipient, but high capacity, low recoil and cheap ammo allowing more practice are big advantages over chamberings that often get more praise.

Whirlwind06
May 10, 2007, 10:35 AM
That is pretty much all I shoot right now.
Keep leaving 9mm brass on the range. I'll pick it up!
I guess I'm the small minority that reloads 9mm. I'm only saving $120 a year or so. But that almost covers my range fees for a year.

MrPeter
May 10, 2007, 10:48 AM
The only reason I don't carry 9mm isn't because I'm worried that it can't do the job. I carry 40 S&W sometimes and .45ACP most of the time because to me the recoil isn't really any different (after firing an xd9 and an xd45 side by side) the magazine capacity is still enough to get the job done, and I'm worried that if I load 9mm+P++P+P+P+P+P++ etc, to get a powerful enough load, then when I actually need my gun I'm sure it will be the skinniest BG I've ever seen, and overpenetration will surely cause some expensive (both morally and financially) collateral damage.

Hmm, that's kind of a long sentence. Oh well. Summary: I fear overpenetration. :uhoh:

03Shadowbob
May 10, 2007, 10:50 AM
I agree that 9mm is not bad at all. It has been proven to do the job over and over again. It is easy to shoot, easy to get back on target, very little recoil, high cap ability and cheap to shoot. It is the perfect gun for lots of people.
I recently sold my 9mm to a very good friend to get him into shooting and so I could consolidate to only .40s and .45s, except for the P3AT.

Vonderek
May 10, 2007, 10:51 AM
The "up-the-skirt" thing is a silly attitude...probably promulgated by guys who find it necessary to buy the biggest pickup truck on the market, and then find it necessary to hang a chrome ballsack off the trailer hitch. But I digress. Cheap 9mm target loads gets you twice as much trigger time as .45 for the same price and modern factory jhp design is plenty good for SD. I love shooting my .45 but hear a cash register ring every time I pull the trigger. 9mm is what I carry every day. BTW-No one picks up 9mm brass because new stuff is still cheap to buy. With ammo prices continuing through the roof that will change and there will be lots of "up-the-skirt" lookers!

alucard0822
May 10, 2007, 10:52 AM
I just got into reloading 9mm walmart white box is now up to $16 for 100, I can reload fmj for about $10 for 100, that $12-$18 per range trip really adds up, and I have a guaranteed supply if they get scarce, I also have a couple carbines in 9mm so it goes fast. 8mm mauser,9mm and 10mm are three of the most versatile cartridges ever developed and probably my 3 favorite.

bakert
May 10, 2007, 11:02 AM
Nothing wrong with the 9MM and you don't really need 15 or more rds for a pistol chambered for it to be effective although if it makes one feel better to have that many rds, more power to them. With todays loads it's a little cat with big claws. Even with the FMJ rds it's killed one helluva lot of people since it was introduced way back when.

romma
May 10, 2007, 11:39 AM
I wouldn't want to get shot with a 9MM... That being said, my primary carry is usually a .32, .380, and sometimes 9MM...

Zundfolge
May 10, 2007, 12:25 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Read that and then come back and tell us that 9mm is not an effective caliber.


If you ever find yourself in a situation where you need to use your handgun, even if you're packing a .500mag you're going to wish it was a long gun.

fishingjld
May 10, 2007, 12:38 PM
I agree, I carry a 9mm on a daily basis and maybe if everyone didn't need to be so manly then we could all get over the whole "bigger is better thing". I have had a .45 caliber and I shot it like hell. I think directly related to weak wrists but whatever the case my 9mm gave me opportunity to shoot well and have fun. anyone that wants to throw jokes down on someone then go ahead and put it on me. i will just be happy that we all enjoy the same sport and i will just be happy carrying something i can shoot without breaking my puny wrists. :evil:

CajunBass
May 10, 2007, 01:11 PM
I'm another 9mm fan. Between my wife and I we have four of them. (XD-9, G-19, Smith and Wesson 39-2, Hi-Point C-9) All of them shoot great, (even the Hi-Point) and the ammo is releativly inexpensive.

I bought a Colt Commander in 45 this spring, thinking I'd carry it, but to be honest it's a heavy beast so I mostly carry the 39-2 these days. I shoot the XD better, but the Smith is so light, and so flat, and just plain looks and feels so good I keep coming back to it. There is just something about a blue gun with wood grips.

I must admit though, that Glock 19 is mighty tempting. :o

General Disarray
May 10, 2007, 03:51 PM
Summary: I fear overpenetration.

Is that really an issue if you're using JHP's, or some other fragmenting round? I thought on ball ammo would rip on through and keep going.

What is the meanest fragmenter?

daysleeprx
May 10, 2007, 04:13 PM
I'm a 9mm fan as well, and I have no qualms about it being "effective" because I'm confident in my ability to shoot it well. In fact right now my nightstand gun is a 9mm (even if only because my .45s are both at the smith).

Waywatcher
May 10, 2007, 05:03 PM
Summary: I fear overpenetration.

Is that really an issue if you're using JHP's, or some other fragmenting round? I thought on ball ammo would rip on through and keep going.

What is the meanest fragmenter?

High velocity, lightweight hollow points are the least likely to over-penetrate, and the most likely to fragment.

E.g.
9mm +P+ 115gr JHP
.45ACP 165gr +P JHP
.40S&W 135gr JHP
Etc.

According to certain standards, they under-penetrate. They have a great street record, however.

mavracer
May 10, 2007, 05:10 PM
properly fed 9mm are great,fairly easy to shoot well and powerful enough to get the job done.would not carry one in NJ where one must use non hollow points.really dosn't matter what pistol you have when it comes time to use it to defend your self you'll wish it was an 870 12 guage

Waywatcher
May 10, 2007, 05:12 PM
I would still carry it in NJ, but with EFMJ rounds.

cameron.personal
May 10, 2007, 05:46 PM
They is all the same...

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m198/2007cam/Ammo/HandgunGelComparisons.jpg

Found that pic somewhere, I carry either a 1911 in .45 or a Glock 19 in 9mm.

AK103K
May 10, 2007, 08:20 PM
A 9mm bullet out of a 357SIG, will give you the baseline 357Mag performance.

Plain old 9mm is much better in bursts. :)

bamabluesman
May 10, 2007, 09:14 PM
.45ACP- 230gr hydrashok vel.=850 energy=349 penetration=12" one shot stop=94%

9mm- 115gr JHP+P vel=1350 energy=466 penetration=14" one shot stop=91%

Not enough difference for me to run out and buy a .45 for protection. and I can plink all day for half the price.

The Canuck
May 10, 2007, 09:27 PM
*Ahem*

I dare any body to stand in front of a 9mm.

:neener:

I shoot .45 ACP because I like the M1911A1 platform and shoot best with it.

mlandman
May 10, 2007, 11:12 PM
Last range trip, I put 8 9mm in a 4 1/2" circle fast (2+ seconds) at 20'. The group was centered on the target's body center of mass.

That will get the job done!

atomd
May 11, 2007, 01:58 AM
45ACP- 230gr hydrashok vel.=850 energy=349 penetration=12" one shot stop=94%

9mm- 115gr JHP+P vel=1350 energy=466 penetration=14" one shot stop=91%

I have to call Bravo Sierra on that whole one shot stop %. I've seen those figures thrown around and they are quite silly. "Stopping power" is a myth when it comes to comparing the 3 most popular pistol SD calibers.

How exactly do they get those numbers? Do they clone a person, keep him 100% still in the exact same position, shoot him in the EXACT same spot from the same distance from the same gun at the same angle, and see if he "stops"? I could also throw in a few other factors but hey. I would be more understanding if it were a 30-06 to the torso versus a .22 to the torso. I'd put my money on the 30. 9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP are just too close that other factors weigh in far more than the caliber. Shot placement being king for starters.

Sorry to get OT for a sec there. I think 9mm is just fine. I carry a .45 but if I did carry a 9mm, I would not feel I was at any disadvantage. Both would have to have good performing JHP ammo in them of course. I like shooting 9mm but I like shooting .45ACP more.

General Disarray
May 11, 2007, 04:30 AM
Sorry, but I won't be able to follow this anymore if I don't ask my dumb noob question: what does +p and +p+ mean?

Checkman
May 11, 2007, 05:24 AM
Well it's late (2:00 A.M.) and I'm in the last hour of my swing shift so I'll answer you. Basically +P means the load is hotter than the industry "standard". +P+ means the load is even hotter than the +P. That's about as technical as I'm going to get.

For example the standard 115 grain 9mm load has the average barrel velocity of approximately 1150 feet per second.

The +P 115 grain load might have a barrel velocity of approximately 1250 feet per second.

The Federal +P+ 115 grain hollow point load has a barrel velocity of 1300 feet per second.

The + loads are faster and have greater pressure than the standard load. They also have a louder report, more recoil (i.e. somewhat slower recovery time to get the next round off) and I suppose more muzzle flash.

My department provides me with the Federal +P+ 115 grain hollow point round.

Those officers who carry the Glock 21 are supplied with the Federal HS +P 230 grain hollow point - also a hotter load than the standard 230 grain 45 hollow point.

If you shoot alot of the higher pressure/ higher velocity loads you can reduce the life of your handgun (internal parts, barrel rifling). But most people don't do that becasue they can't afford to expend thousands of the more expensive + loads.

Did this help?

Caimlas
May 11, 2007, 05:29 AM
Unfortunately that attitude kept me steering clear of 9mm for years. I've been an avid .40s&w guy. So I pick up my buddy's Beretta a few weeks ago and tore the center out of a target in zero.zero seconds with a 15 rnd clip. I paused for a long while and was like "where the hell have you been all my life?". Weird how your perspectives can change so readily, especially on beliefs you've had for years.


After shooting .40S&W, I've found that shooting any 9mm or .45acp gun is a relatively "light load" and, at the least, quite easy to handle. .40S&W kicks harder than 9mm and faster than .45, so I imagine it's the result of just learning to handle a gun that jerks more, and harder.

At least, that's how I view the matter. :P

Personally, a number of factors have been mulling through my head lately over whether to get a CZ75B in 9mm or .40S&W (and as such, this can be used as a fairly objective comparison of caliber strengths regardless of platform):

Pro 9mm: cheaper ammo (and slightly cheaper gun, but hey..), higher capacity, lower recoil
Pro .40S&W: slightly better stopping power per round (arguable - shot placement is "more important" and with cheap ammo I can practice more), still only a couple (3) rounds less than the 9mm, recoil which can help me train to not even notice the recoil on a 9mm

I'm just an inch away from getting the 9mm and saying "screw it, these +p+ SD rounds are going to do the job. If not, I've practiced to make follow up shots quickly, and I'll do so." Two 9mm holes is better than one .40 cal hole. :P)

9mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP are just too close that other factors weigh in far more than the caliber.

Yep.

Caimlas
May 11, 2007, 05:34 AM
cameron.personal: They is all the same...

Not hardly! This may just be my subjective way of interpreting it, but the .40S&W pathways are substantially darker. This may not have been the intent, but it would appear to me to illustrate, based on the differences in the rounds, that that darkness represents the cartridge's ability to actually damage flesh (or at least the gelatin) severely. The wound channels might be the same, but the damage is the difference between the flesh just being nudged aside and someone passing a meat grinder through (to use a little hyperbole).

sm
May 11, 2007, 05:38 AM
Ya know history reveals a lot of folks died from being shot with a 9mm, including just 9mm FMJ.

Pretty simple actually how all this really works.
Gun has to feed and extract and this includes the magazines being part of the semi-auto firearm.
Bullets should go to POA/POI.
Shooter [clue here] Shooter should be practiced and skilled to use said firearm to hit what is aimed at.

Bullet hits what aimed at and folks die.
Bullets do not hit what aimed at, folks don't die.

Caimlas
May 11, 2007, 05:40 AM
According to certain standards, they under-penetrate. They have a great street record, however.

Wait, so are you saying the fragmenting, lighter bullets have a better repute than heavy bullets for stopping power? Or for killing power? Or what?

I like the lighter stuff because it recoils less, is more likely to expand due to the higher velocity, and due to that expanding and possible fragmentation, is more likely to do damage to a greater cubic area of flesh and thereby more likely to kick the attacker's body into shock due to pain, etc. stopping them. At least, that's my reasoning.

Plink
May 11, 2007, 06:52 AM
I like the lighter stuff because it recoils less, is more likely to expand due to the higher velocity, and due to that expanding and possible fragmentation, is more likely to do damage to a greater cubic area of flesh and thereby more likely to kick the attacker's body into shock due to pain, etc. stopping them. At least, that's my reasoning.

It does recoil less and it does go faster. Velocity in and of itself is pretty useless though. Lighter rounds penetrate less because of their lesser momentum. A lighter object decelerates faster when it meets resistance. As for fragmentation, if a bullet itself can fail to penetrate deep enough, imagine what small, light fragments of that bullet do. Fragmentation makes a light bullet even lighter. Fragmentation doesn't make up for lack of shot placement and in fact, can make perfect shot placement less than perfect if the now-lighter bullet fails to get deep enough into the boiler room.

Years back I did a lot of testing of handgun loads on gelatin, then took to the field and tried the same loads on live hogs (several hundred, in fact). Alot was learned. First off, I learned that gelatin is a great way to compare loads against each other, but it's a bad way to predict what they'll do in real flesh. For example, if load A penetrates 10% more than load B in gelatin, it'll generally penetrate about 10% more in flesh also. If it expands 10% more than load B in gelatin, it'll probably expand more in flesh (assuming it expands at all...flesh is more unpredictable). The fact that both loads did 10 or 12 inches in gelatin is pretty irrelavent though. Flesh penetration is often much less than gelatin penetration, but it depends on what it hits. Lungs don't offer much resistance, as they're mostly air, but skin is the equivelant of 2-4 inches of gelatin just by itself.

A few things to note about ballistic gelatin. It's tough and stretchy, but you can push a finger into it pretty easily. You can also get it to "rip" pretty easily. Try both of those the next time you're handling a roast. Cavities in gelatin and cavities in flesh are very different. Do a little hunting and that'll become evident in a hurry.

Lastly, energy and velocity in general are pretty meaningless. Let's change mindset from "stops" for a moment and take a look at failures to stop. They have happened with every cartridge from mild to wild, even multiple hits with 12 gauge. It doesn't matter if the perp took several thousand foot pounds of this mythical "energy" or not. If he didn't go down, he didn't go down. What do ALL of these reports have in common? Simple. The projectiles either missed the vitals, or they didn't penetrate deep enough to get to the vitals. That kinda disproves "energy" as any form of incapacitating mechanism and puts the burden of effectiveness on one thing; reaching the vitals. Hence why penetration is the first and foremost goal of a load. A load that both penetrates and expands is better yet, as the more the vitals are damaged, the faster the perp goes down. All the "energy" in the world is pretty useless if the vitals aren't hit. That's all been proven.

As a last observation, we're too focused on "stops" when the real thing we should be looking at is "failures". Any cartridge can produce "stops" and look good on paper. Let me explain for a moment. I doubt many people would hunt a Kodiak bear with a .22 short. Yet a few decades back, the largest Kodiak on record at the time was taken with one (kinda shows how important shot placement is). If you don't believe that, feel free to look it up yourself. Anyway, by the flawed math that is "one shot stops", that would make the .22 short a very effective Kodiak bear hunting round, since the majority of single shots taken, resulted in a stop.

I had an acquaintance many years ago that had taken 6 125 gr. .357 magnum hollowpoints dead center to the chest at point blank range during a burglary attempt on his 18 wheeler while he was asleep in it. He was able to end the threat and get himself to medical attention. He took several thousand foot pounds of "energy" yet was still able to function. Why? Because nothing immediately vital was struck. He was severely injured and it took a lot of surgery to save his life but he was able to function long enough to get help.

If we take a look at failures, things become a little clearer. A "stop" can be caused by anything from fear of being shot again, to the pain from the initial shot, or maybe he just fainted. These aren't "forced" stops. The perp simply lost interest in continuing hostilities. Yet they're counted in the statistics.

You'll never see a perp having take a serious central nervous system hit, or having their heart blown out, continue hostilities, simply because they're unable to.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you can "fake" a stop. Hostilities can end for a number of reasons not related to the effectiveness of the round that hit the perp. You cannot, however, "fake" a failure when a round has taken out something immediately vital.

What's this got to do with the 9mm? Everything and nothing. If the bullet makes it to where it counts, it works. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. That's the same with any cartridge. I use 9mm and .45 ACP both and I don't see any major benefit of one over the other if you choose your ammo wisely. Myself, my friends, and my family ate a lot of pork over many years while I learned that lesson. A lesson that was staring me in the face all along, but I chose to put my faith in silly paper numbers instead of using my common sense.

alukban
May 11, 2007, 01:57 PM
...like from a G17L and you get near .357 magnum ballistics from a 115 gr projectile (or so I have read) without the recoil.

sm
May 11, 2007, 06:31 PM
Plink,

Excellent Post!

Thank you There is a LOT of great information to be gleaned from from your sharing.
I also can concur with you from my testing and real life observations/circumstances.

Steve

mavracer
May 11, 2007, 11:27 PM
9mm are accurate and controlable the wife and I have 5 between us a tauri 905,sig 226,BHP,walther p1 and ruger p89. all 5 are reliable. the p89 and 226 are boring garbage disposals(put 15 in mag one in pipe pull trigger 16 times put 16 holes in target repeat until you know where freezes) the p1 is a just wanted one it shoots fine but I've not shot it much.the BHP has a bar-sto bbl and a tight chamber will not go into battery with reloads once in a while and the 905 will have sticky extraction with +p.ultimatly I trust the 9mm to do its job just as well as any of my other guns. after all its the software not the hardware

wooderson
May 11, 2007, 11:45 PM
My father keeps pestering me to get something in .40 - but I keep saying no. In the event that the gun has to be used 'for real,' I see no realistic difference in effectiveness between SD rounds, and for range/practice/plinking/IDPA, why would I go with the more expensive round?

.45acp has some history (and .45 Colt moreso), so I enjoy shooting those for fun, but even in a carry gun I would feel no more or less comfortable with eight rounds of .45 vs. nine rounds of 9mm in a single-stack/cap-limited situation.

rantingredneck
May 12, 2007, 12:02 AM
I have a Ruger P89 and PC9 carbine to match. I've had the P89 for about 12 years or so, the PC9 for about two months. I've shot standard pressure and +P rounds out of both (a few hundred through the PC9, a few thousand through the P89) I would not hesitate to trust the 9mm to do it's job if I do mine.

I have owned a .40 and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. That's a bit of an overstatement, but my 7 yard groups looked like 25 yard buckshot patterns. Not something I would necessarily trust my life to. I don't know if it was more the round or more the platform (Sigma 40V), but I never got comfortable enough with it to trust it like I do the 9mm.

I also own a .45ACP and trust it implicitly as well. It is a Ruger P90 (I like the idea of sticking with one particular platform).

I was at the range about a month or so ago and there was a young fellow (early 20's) next door to me. He stepped over and started a conversation. He was shooting a Ruger P345 poorly. We struck up a conversation and he offered to let me fire a few rounds from it. I took him up on the offer as I am very interested in purchasing one. I put two mags in the 10 ring with it at 7 yards. He then started asking for shooting advice. I let him fire my P90 and watched his technique. Gave him some grip and trigger control advice, which helped him some. But then I pulled out the P89 and let him shoot it. Night and day. After a few mags he was chewing the 10 ring up. He went back to shooting his P345 and was finally getting the results he was looking for.

Now part of his problem was poor technique that he'd never learned to get over. Another part, I believe, was that he was not experienced enough with handguns to jump right to the .45ACP. He had developed a bit of flinch and the P89 session cleared it up. Once he went back to his own gun it seemed to stay cleared up.

I guess the point of this long post is that the 9 is just fine........

jim314
May 12, 2007, 01:46 AM
Plink, excellent post.

9x19
May 12, 2007, 01:49 AM
A pretty good read...

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/9/9mm-advoc.htm

robctwo
May 12, 2007, 02:26 AM
When I got serious about shooting pistols a few years ago I was coming from years of hunting, mostly deer with a .243 Winchester Model 70. I had no illusions about the stopping power of a hand gun versus a rifle. I've shot a bunch of birds as well, and understand my 12 gauge is going to do a lot more damage than any hand gun. I learned to shoot with Dad's early edition Ruger .22 and a Winchester bolt .22.

I started with 9mm and .22. CZ75BD with the Kadet Kit. Great combo. I bought a variety of 9mm's and a few .40s. I avoided the .45 because those guys seemed a bit odd. This past year I became odd as well.:o

I still have the 9mm CZ P-01 within reach most of the time, and feel very well protected for a hand gun. I love the 45s for range work and games, and would want one of them if I had any long range pistol work to do.

When I was about six years old, about 50 years ago now, Dad shot the Ruger into a piece of plywood. I'm not sure how thick it was or how far away it was, but the bullet went almost all the way through and was sticking out of the back of the board. He held up the board and showed my sister and I the layers of plywood and noted that the bullet would have gone through all three of our heads if each layer was a side of our skull.

I remember that to this day. I also shoot .22s at 25 yards into 8" plates. Put one of those up over your face and ask how many times you'd like me to hit the plate. At our club we treat the .22s just like all the other real guns for a very good reason.

Caimlas
May 12, 2007, 04:38 AM
So, Plink, can you post the numbers on your hog and gel experiments? :-D

Thanks for that post, it was instructive. Gives a bit more credence to the Mozambique drill, I think.

hhb
May 12, 2007, 08:44 AM
I ask all the pistoleros that make fun of my 9mms if they'd volunteer to stand downrange and hold the target in front of them, and to date; No Takers.

Man With A Gun
May 12, 2007, 12:45 PM
I know Fed agents who wnet BACK to the 9mm once there were hot loads with +P ability.

I saw a pile of folks shot in Vietnam and some from .45's or 9mm and they ALL fell down. That was with mil BALL which is the absolute worst SD round on Earth.

All you can ask from a pistol is to give you time and room to get away from the threat. 9mm's will do that for you.

Lonestar49
May 12, 2007, 12:51 PM
Quote: I ask all the pistoleros that make fun of my 9mms if they'd volunteer to stand downrange and hold the target in front of them, and to date; No Takers.
--------------
...

LMAO ~ a thousand flys cannot be wrong ~


LS

Setzer77
May 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
I once scoffed at the 9mm, of course, this was in my younger days. I then picked up, and decided to buy an FNP9-M. It's the only gun I really even bother carrying anymore, I have much more control and accuracy with it than I do my SA .45.

I also recovered an FMJ 147 gr slug last time at the range (sort of a private thing), and I must say, I'll pass on getting hit with it. For those that load their own ammo, there is a 9mm loading listed that runs a 147gr JHP at 1200 fps. I'm having some loaded up as we speak.

With age, I've learned never to count on either my accuracy to the point of instant incapacitation, nor the ability to do the job with few rounds. I like 9mm for the fact that the capacity can be rather large, and the recoil low.

Plink
May 12, 2007, 06:55 PM
So, Plink, can you post the numbers on your hog and gel experiments?

Do you mean one shot stop percentages? :p

I ask all the pistoleros that make fun of my 9mms if they'd volunteer to stand downrange and hold the target in front of them, and to date; No Takers.

I bet you won't find anyone that'll stand in front of a .22 short either. Does that mean it's a good self defense round?

DennisE
May 12, 2007, 07:03 PM
I used to shoot .45s and .40s but now in semiautos I limit myself to 9mm shot in quality handguns like the EMP and the P7M8. I'm sold on the fact that with decent ammo they'll do the job just as well in a nasty situation and they're cheaper to shoot and easier to shoot very well. I also enjoy the reverse snob appeal of belonging the the small club that shot the .45 and .40 for years and then walked away. Dennis

elrod
May 12, 2007, 11:40 PM
Looks like we keep coming back to the three basics (cost, weapon recoil, and effectiveness). To me,these factors combine into confidence to deal with a SHTF situtation. I have 2 BHPs, a 24/7 in 40 s&w, and a M60 .357. I have the most confidence in the first one I can lay my hands on when I really need a weapon (hopefully never). In everyday use the cost and recoil give the 9s the edge.

WeedWhacker
May 13, 2007, 03:23 AM
You'll never see a perp having take a serious central nervous system hit, or having their heart blown out, continue hostilities, simply because they're unable to.

Even if someone suffers total circulatory system failure, they still have somewhere in the ballpark of ten seconds worth of consciousness and physical capability left in them.
While I cannot cite the source, there was a story about a grandmother and a grandson, the former being held hostage at knifepoint while the latter was told to go fetch "the guns", involving the grandson shooting the male criminal directly in the heart with a .45, yet the criminal managed to exit the house and run either 100 or 200 yards down the street before collapsing and expiring.

The only way to immediately and physically stop a human from functioning is a critical central nervous system hit.

Prince Yamato
May 13, 2007, 03:25 AM
I personally can't stand the caliber pissing war. 9mm kills effectively and shoots comfortably.

Man With A Gun
May 13, 2007, 10:10 AM
Jeff Cooper and Gunsite ruined me early on regarding the 9mm.

Life and experiences teach that the 9mm has killed and wounded millions, most recently those poor kids at VT.

The new bullets make the 9mm even more deadly than ever.

PLINK: I love you signature since, once and unintentionally, I was hunting dove , answered the call of nature and peed on the electric fence.....I had to laugh when I read your post since I have been there, done that and did not get the T-shirt. :evil:

Tom Servo
May 13, 2007, 11:02 AM
The joke at my shootin range is "Why doesn't anyone pick up 9mm brass? Cuz they don't want you lookin up their skirt".
Hey, I only wore that to the range ONCE, okay? :rolleyes:

Most of the arguments against the 9mm are based on 20-year-old data, and on the fact that 9mm ball ammo is a mediocre stopper. There have been tremendous advances in design since 1986 (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm), and modern loads are far more powerful and effective.

At the moment, I trust my life to Black Hills 124gr Gold Dots, which will penetrate a 2x4 as much as a 180gr .40 and leave the same sized hole.

After all, the .45 is just for people with a need to..."prove" something <runs and hides> :)

wooderson
May 13, 2007, 12:18 PM
The only way to immediately and physically stop a human from functioning is a critical central nervous system hit.

“This is what’s going to happen. This is what’s going to happen. I will put a round precisely through your medulla oblongata, which is located at the base of your brain, straight through a point mid-distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose and you will be dead from the neck down. Your finger won’t even twitch. Do you believe that?”

Lonestar49
May 13, 2007, 12:30 PM
...

Jack Bauer, is that you.. ?

I saw that program too, can't recall which LEO vs BG program it was, but yep, the BG holding the hostage at gunpoint, with his gun to the girls head made his last statement to the effect.. "even if you shoot me first, I'll put one thru her head.." And the FBI girl, told him about such a shot to the head or neck, can't remember, but told him that such a shot would sever some key nerve and his finger would not twitch.. And while she was telling the BG this, she took the perfect shot, and sure enough, the BG went down, gun in hand and no last-nerve-finger-flinch-pull of the trigger, and the LEO girl/cutie, saved the girl.

Awesome point-shot, it was, as she had both eyes open when she was talking to the BG and took the shot..

And IIRC, she had a SIG Carry, either 40cal, or 45cal, hmmm, my bet is, it was a 45cal, as IIRC, she was FBI.


LS

Youngster
May 13, 2007, 01:06 PM
I've never understood the attitude that the "big bore" crowd shows toward the 9mm, it's not the 105 year old service autoloader world standard for nothing. My only gripe with the 9mm is that I wouldn't feel all that comfortable carrying one stoked with less than the best available JHPs.

AK103K
May 13, 2007, 03:30 PM
This is what’s going to happen. This is what’s going to happen. I will put a round precisely through your medulla oblongata, which is located at the base of your brain, straight through a point mid-distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose and you will be dead from the neck down. Your finger won’t even twitch. Do you believe that?”
Its called the "QUELL" system. If your interested, look up "Paris Theodore", he promoted it back in the 70's/80's.

Plink
May 13, 2007, 03:56 PM
Jeff Cooper and Gunsite ruined me early on regarding the 9mm.


A lot of the issues with the 9mm early on weren't related to the caliber itself, but the loads that were chosen. For example the infamous Miami shootout. Of all the weak, anemic, underpenetrating loads to use. And they wondered why it didn't work when they needed it the most? The same thing would have happened if they had used the lightest bullets in most any other caliber too. It's common sense that a bullet may have to get through an arm before hitting the torso, and needs enough penetration for both.

The problem with the earlier bullet technology was expansion though. It took high velocities and light bullets to get much expansion in the smaller calibers. It's odd that the old Speer "flying ashtray" .45 would expand at low velocities, but a 9mm needed to be travelling at the speed of light. And forget about the 147 grain loads expanding at all. Bullet design has come a long way since. Today we can get good penetration and expansion both. Even the 147's can be made to expand reliably, especially if the load doesn't need to be subsonic.

The sad part is there's STILL a big movement towards the lightest bullets and shallow penetration. As if somehow paper numbers matter more than anything else. Look at all the chatter about frangibles and folks so worried about overpenetration that if a load does 10 inches in gelatin, it scares them! I can't for the life of me figure out why people are only focused on kinetic energy now, when penetration is the single make-or-break factor in any caliber. All the energy in the world does nothing if it doesn't make it into the boiler room.

Plink
May 13, 2007, 03:59 PM
PLINK: I love you signature since, once and unintentionally, I was hunting dove , answered the call of nature and peed on the electric fence.....I had to laugh when I read your post since I have been there, done that and did not get the T-shirt.

I made that unfortunate mistake once too, many years ago. Of all the things I've forgotten over the years, I remember that like it was yesterday!

Ala Dan
May 13, 2007, 04:06 PM
Hello Friends and Neighbors-

Before about a month ago, I owned only one 9m/m self-loader; and that
was my beloved West German SIG-SAUER P228. Then, last month things
changed as I picked up a brand new Kahr CW-9 that weighs only 18.5
ozs. Well, this week I purchased a 1981 Smith & Wesson model 39-2
that would grade out right at 95%. So now I own three 9m/m caliber
handguns~! I guess next on the list needs to be a nice Walther P88,
uh~? :uhoh: :scrutiny: ;)

Checkman
May 13, 2007, 04:27 PM
Well I'm torn between getting a slightly used SW 99 or a new Glock 34. These will be fun guns. So much for cleaning out my gun safe last year of all "non-essential" handguns. *Sigh* It's like dieting. No matter how much weight you lose you eventually gain it all back and then some.:(

Oh well lets get more guns.:D

bulltaco
May 13, 2007, 06:28 PM
If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

SniperStraz
May 13, 2007, 06:38 PM
I myself am not really sure about the issue at hand, but in response to this: If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?
The US Armed Forces use standard pressure military issue ball which we all know is not the most efficient round out there. Most CCers won't be packing military issue ball ammo. Instead I think it would be better if we compare to anything that we compare to what LEOs carry. They rely on their sidearms much more often and tend to use high grade ammo. Now we should ask why it is that most LEOs don't carry .45. Hmm? I don't have the numbers at hand but I'd venture to say that most LEOs are currently carrying 9mm.

wooderson
May 13, 2007, 07:52 PM
If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?
They aren't.

Plink
May 13, 2007, 07:58 PM
If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

FMJ. 'nuff said.

CZF
May 13, 2007, 10:06 PM
Having owned 9mms,.40 cals, 10mms, and .45 ACP pistols (mostly CZ types) over the years.

Nowdays..I carry a small but heavy 9mm RAMI everyday. Wish it was a 10mm, but the gun shoots just right with the 124 gr. Speer +P Gold Dot.

The NYPD and other agencies are quite happy with the Gold Dot load.
Can't argue with success!

http://www.hunt101.com/img/401264.JPG

TimboKhan
May 14, 2007, 05:26 AM
I think the economic arguement is a valid one. There is nobody that loves .45 more than me, but it really is getting to the point where I can't afford to shoot them. Following the logic that practice makes perfect, the 9mm looks more attractive every day.

I actually own a couple of 9mm pistols now simply because they are cheaper to shoot. I will say that I will never argue for them as caliber of choice, but the simple fact is that they are cheaper, pleasant (and fun!) to shoot, and they will get the job done on a bad guy. I would rather have a .45 any day of the week, but the 9mm is a fine "little brother".

As far as the "other" calibers go, I ignore them. Thats not to say I think they are bad rounds so much as it to say that I just don't see the point. If my 9mm or .45 can't get the job done, I will move to revolvers and the larger choice of caliber that they present. Specifically, the .357 which I feel is probably the second best combat caliber ever made, but that's a whole different argument....

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