Gun ban in England makes it a happy place...


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HUMONGO
May 10, 2007, 09:07 AM
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007210244,00.html

Teenager is shot for his Xbox

By MIKE SULLIVAN
May 08, 2007


COMMENT ON THIS STORY

A TEENAGER was shot three times when robbers burst into his home — to steal his Xbox.

They put a pistol in his mouth and threatened to shoot unless he handed over the £280 games console.

A struggle broke out as he went to fetch the Microsoft Xbox 360 and the victim, 18, was blasted point-blank.

One of the alleged robbers, 17, was stabbed. Both were last night “stable” in hospital.

It is thought to be the first time in Britain anybody has been shot for a games console.

A police spokesman said: “It’s fortunate the young man who was shot didn’t die.”

A source added: “You’re talking somebody being robbed and shot in their home for a games console. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect in America, not here. The violence used was extreme.”

Cops have appealed for anyone who saw two or three black men, one bleeding badly, after last Wednesday’s 3pm attack in Sydenham, South London.

They bailed one youth, aged 18, after the robbery.

The Xbox shooting follows a spate of robberies earlier this year after Sony released its PlayStation 3 console at games stores across Britain.

Crooks swooped on fans as soon as they left shops after the midnight launch.

_________________________________________________________________

Once again, if you outlaw guns, then only outlaws...something, something.

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El Tejon
May 10, 2007, 09:15 AM
A lot of swooping going on in the UK.:scrutiny:

Waywatcher
May 10, 2007, 09:17 AM
Apparently the crooks didn't get the memo that their guns are illegal.

romma
May 10, 2007, 09:24 AM
It’s the sort of thing you’d expect in America, not here. :confused: Only bad things like this happen in America!... That bad ole place with those bad ole gun-totin' meanies!!! Every time the logic these people use to support gun control is defied, the more I love my country for all it's good and even not so good qualities. At least here, there is still an ample amount of reality based people. For the most part.

Sistema1927
May 10, 2007, 09:29 AM
I call B.S. on this story.

Everyrone knows that guns are illegal in England, so it couldn't have happened.

(If you can't keep guns out of the hands of criminals on an island, how would you ever keep guns out of the hands of criminals on a continent?)

kellyj00
May 10, 2007, 09:38 AM
Amazing how vague the story is.
"A source" says that this kinda thing happens in America.
Also, if it were good journalism they would have stated more details on how the home invasion occured, through door/window etc.

SkiLune
May 10, 2007, 09:52 AM
Britain has a far higher incidence of violent crime than does the USA.

HUMONGO
May 10, 2007, 09:52 AM
It did say they burst in to the home. Maybe they breached the door with explosives. You know, since guns are illegal, they had to do something to intimidate their victim. :rolleyes:

I especially like how one of the attackers was stabbed, presumably, with an illegal knife.

Kali Endgame
May 10, 2007, 09:58 AM
They are trading guns for Xbox's in Mexico, but trading bullets for Xboxs in England. Which country is more messed up.:neener:

Dimensio
May 10, 2007, 11:58 AM
Britain has a far higher incidence of violent crime than does the USA.

That isn't accurate. The US has a higher violent crime rate than the UK, and it always has. The notable trend is that the US's violent crime rate has been steadily decreasing over the last 40 years, while the UK's crime rate has been increasing.

Basically, the difference in the violent crime rates in the US and the UK has been shrinking steadly, while at the same time gun laws in the US have become (arguably) more relaxed and gun laws in the UK have decidedly become much more restrictive. Don't tell a gun-grabber that the UK has a higher violent crime rate than the US; it's false and they'll call you out on it. Instead, point out the change in the crime rates over time (US = decreasing; UK = increasing). They'll sputter and stammer something about the UK trend being "skewed" since 2005 (nevermind that the trend has been going on since 1969), but have no real honest reply.

Also, any word on whether the crime victim will be charged in the stabbing of one of the thugs?

anidar
May 10, 2007, 12:07 PM
A TEENAGER was shot three times when robbers burst into his home
A struggle broke out as he went to fetch the Microsoft Xbox 360 and the victim, 18, was blasted point-blank.
One of the alleged robbers, 17, was stabbed. Both were last night “stable” in hospital.

Shot three times was it wrong caliber or bad shot placement? :eek:

The Law
May 10, 2007, 12:13 PM
That isn't accurate. The US has a higher violent crime rate than the UK, and it always has.

Oh, really? That's not what the data shows.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html

Creeping Incrementalism
May 10, 2007, 01:09 PM
There's also a U.N. victim study showing much higher violent crime in the U.K. and Australia compared to the U.S.

http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/icvs/pdf_files/key2000i/pdf/08-icvs-h2.pdf

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57860&d=1178813154

The only category of violent crime the U.S. exceeds Europe/Canada is murder, and I believe that is basically because of drug dealers offing each other--not something law-abiding citizens get caught up in often.

Shear_stress
May 10, 2007, 01:11 PM
Oh, really? That's not what the data shows.


The data mainly shows discrepancies in crime reporting between countries. The British data post-1998 includes a wider range of offences and also throws "alleged" offences into the mix. This explains some or all of the apparent "increase". Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

A more compelling study would be one that shows that gun crime isn't coupled with gun laws. This data does exist. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Point is still that strict gun laws don't make a country safer.

SkiLune
May 10, 2007, 01:21 PM
I've seen the studies with the raw data. Murder rates in the USA are higher per capita, while violent crime (rape, murder, assaults, etc.) are significantly higher in England and Australia.

I found the John Lott article that discusses this, and stand by my assertion that violent crime is more prevalent in Britain.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/IBDGunConFailure.html

budney
May 10, 2007, 01:23 PM
A source added: “You’re talking somebody being robbed and shot in their home for a games console. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect in America, not here. The violence used was extreme.”

:barf: Yup. Because Americans and Brits are two different species. I thought we were all humans, and that humans are a fallen race--but I'm some kind of nut who reads outdated garbage like the Bible.

--Len.

Zundfolge
May 10, 2007, 01:28 PM
The US has a higher violent crime rate than the UK...
I think you're confusing crime rates and absolute numbers.

There are more violent crimes in the US, but we also have 5 times the population of the UK*, so the number of violent crimes per 100,000 population is much greater in the UK even though the absolute number of crimes is lower.



*USA ~300,000,000
UK ~ 60,000,000

Fosbery
May 10, 2007, 01:32 PM
The UK does in fact have a higher rate of violent crime than the US by any measure.

If these figures are invalid then one can't very well say that the opposite is true when any proof provided, if there were any, would be invalid.

On the article itself:

I'm suprised nobody picked up on the fact that the victim fought back and STABBED his attacker, despite getting shot for his trouble. Good on him.

SkiLune
May 10, 2007, 01:39 PM
There are comparability issues with the statistics compiled by each nation, but even the Mirror agreed reluctantly that violent crime is higher in the UK than in the USA. Link below. Quote from the article (by the Reason Foundation, a libertarian leaning US Think Tank), from which one could argue that perhaps Britain's murder rate is actually higher than that of the US:

"The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as possible."

Full article: http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

AndyC
May 10, 2007, 01:44 PM
I feel safer in the US than I ever have in the UK.

budney
May 10, 2007, 01:45 PM
I feel safer in the US than I ever have in the UK.

Definitely.

Isildur
May 10, 2007, 01:48 PM
Oh, really? That's not what the data shows.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html
Do you or anyone else know what happend in 1998 or close to that date in Britain? I know that Britain has go extremely strict gun laws have they been tightened at that time?
The rise after this point is really dramatic so something must have happened.

1911ShooterTJ
May 10, 2007, 01:54 PM
I'm suprised nobody picked up on the fact that the victim fought back and STABBED his attacker, despite getting shot for his trouble. Good on him.

Yea, and expect him to be sued for doing so. My family is all from England (Yorkshire, in the northern UK) and I remember my Aunt noting an incident where someone broke into someone’s house with a knife, and received a brutal beating via golf club. :D The intruder proceeded to sue the homeowner and won! :uhoh:

The UK has been clamping down on gun laws, as well as other laws, by which citizens may defend themselves. Not to mention silly cases such as above which only further erode their ability to defend themselves. From what I gather in speaking to my family, the UK has been flooded by refugees from places such as Pakistan, and these immigrants tend to live together, creating ethnic neighborhoods that have generated crime and drug problems. These neighborhoods have also lead to increasing racism. This combination is extremely volatile, and I’m sure we can expect to see more of such crimes in the UK.

:banghead:

SkiLune
May 10, 2007, 01:58 PM
1911 Shooter said:

Yea, and expect him to be sued for doing so. My family is all from England (Yorkshire, in the northern UK) and I remember my Aunt noting an incident where someone broke into someone’s house with a knife, and received a brutal beating via golf club. The intruder proceeded to sue the homeowner and won!

I believe it.

If you click on the link to the Reason Foundation article on violent crime in Britain, you will see several examples of people who defended themselves from violent criminals being sued by the crooks. In one case, the State actually provided funding to the criminal to pursue the case.

MD_Willington
May 10, 2007, 02:13 PM
In the US, the same guys busting in the door would probably be saying hello to some 230 gr "you're not wanted here"...

Fosbery
May 10, 2007, 02:37 PM
Do you or anyone else know what happend in 1998 or close to that date in Britain? I know that Britain has go extremely strict gun laws have they been tightened at that time?
The rise after this point is really dramatic so something must have happened.

The handgun ban came into force.

The Canuck
May 10, 2007, 03:38 PM
There's also a U.N. victim study showing much higher violent crime in the U.K. and Australia compared to the U.S.

http://www.unicri.it/wwd/analysis/ic...08-icvs-h2.pdf



The only category of violent crime the U.S. exceeds Europe/Canada is murder, and I believe that is basically because of drug dealers offing each other--not something law-abiding citizens get caught up in often.
Attached Thumbnails


WOOHOO!! Canada's in third place! This is great! We got the Bronze in sheeple herding! YEAH!:banghead:

We have got to get the right to carry firearms for the protection of life and limb.

The Canuck
May 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
In the US, the same guys busting in the door would probably be saying hello to some 230 gr "you're not wanted here"...


If it were me I would prefer to open with some 12ga. #00 "close the door on your way out".

TexasRifleman
May 10, 2007, 03:44 PM
XBoxes clearly cause violence. BAN THEM FOR THE CHILDREN

VanEasten
May 10, 2007, 03:52 PM
XBoxes clearly cause violence. BAN THEM FOR THE CHILDREN

Indeed. I cannot see why anyone would oppose reasonable XBox control measures.

HUMONGO
May 10, 2007, 04:11 PM
Indeed. I cannot see why anyone would oppose reasonable XBox control measures.

Well, you did use the buzz word "reasonable". Only an "XBox nut" would be against "common sense" XBox controls.

Beachmaster
May 10, 2007, 05:59 PM
I just posted an "XBOX FREE ZONE" sign outside my house. I feel safer now!

HUMONGO
May 10, 2007, 06:27 PM
I'm gonna apply for my CCX!

Axman
May 12, 2007, 12:14 AM
I just posted an "XBOX FREE ZONE" sign outside my house. I feel safer now!

Now they'll know not to break in for your X-Box! They definitely don't want your plasma screen TV or your mega gun collection. Crooks don't really want to steal guns, do they? :D

AlaskaErik
May 12, 2007, 04:25 PM
A source added: “You’re talking somebody being robbed and shot in their home for a games console. It’s the sort of thing you’d expect in America, not here. The violence used was extreme.”

Actually, England has a much higher hot burglary rate than we do. No surprise there. Criminals in England don't have to worry about armed homeowners.

sterling180
May 13, 2007, 12:24 PM
:neener: XBoxes clearly cause violence. BAN THEM FOR THE CHILDREN
As said before,there are too many liberal people in the UK,that hate guns.If you want to imagine a typical hardline anti's attitudes towards guns,then I suggest that you watch the movie 'Logans Run',and compare the talking super-computer to the anti's attitude:you will see that the more you tell them that gun control doesn't work,the more they will ignore you and would systematically tell you over and over again,that it would work-until they are red in the face,with tears streaming down their face,or would simply explode,like that computer did.:D :)

Sydenham, South London

No wonder,that part of south London is a rough area,where there are many thuggish types.It is a slummy area and I have passed by it enough times.It's possible that this was a 'Trident incident' or a black on black incident.Ages ago,the only other troublemakers were skinheads and members of the Richardson gang.Those scumbags would have got a good hiding in double measures by both of those two groups,if they were still around.The Richardsons were the Kray brothers,rivals,who were from south London.

sterling180
May 13, 2007, 12:45 PM
The UK has been clamping down on gun laws, as well as other laws, by which citizens may defend themselves. Not to mention silly cases such as above which only further erode their ability to defend themselves. From what I gather in speaking to my family, the UK has been flooded by refugees from places such as Pakistan, and these immigrants tend to live together, creating ethnic neighborhoods that have generated crime and drug problems. These neighborhoods have also lead to increasing racism. This combination is extremely volatile, and I’m sure we can expect to see more of such crimes in the UK.

My friend you have it spot on.Most trouble,involving gangs,comes from council estate chavs and west Indian and occasionally African immigrants and those of West Indian and African descent.Hip-hop and Gangsta Rap have been integrated into the mainstram over here,so a lot of male kids think that they are TuPak Shar and Dr Dre/Eminem and the girls think that they are Beyonce,etc,etc.

Other thugs,such as football hooligans and skinheads,use coshes,fists and bricks,rather than guns.

Jim K
May 13, 2007, 12:53 PM
Every time something like that happens in England (and doesn't get covered up by the cops), the police and press pretend that it is the first time. "This never happens in England" or "we expect this in the U.S. but not here."

That is pure John Bull****. It happens all the time; beatings and killings are common, even shootings in the glorious gun free society. The pretense of a crime free society of happy villagers watched over by a friendly bobby on a bike is pure propaganda. Crime is rampant in the cities and the criminals are (I believe) more vicious and nasty than even the worst American crooks. Guns are not as common, but iron bars, lead pipes, heavy chains, spike boots, knives, hatchets, and baseball bats (yep, thousands are sold every year in a country that doesn't play baseball) are common criminal weapons.

Jim

Afy
May 13, 2007, 04:45 PM
Read a book called Freakonomics... by a fairly respected duo.

Its a fun read... and does expose some interesting bits. Including the fact that crime has more to do with abortion than guns. Using the pseudo science that the anti-gun nuts use... :neener:

BTW I witnessed some violence post security in LHR... and five minutes before anyone showed up...

The UK currently is in a state of fear... and what the Govt doesnt want you to know would really freak you out.
For those of you who live there... figure out why there are so many gas explosions in the country lately.

Big Az Al
May 13, 2007, 05:43 PM
From some of the history I have read, just because it is history,

The first Gun Bans in the commonwealth,

Where Anti-comunist DEFENSE-OF-THE-REALM-ACTS. designed to preserve the THRONE!

they where alledgedly passed to limit the amount damage that the comunist adgitators of the 20's and 30's could do in the realm!

Somewhere in the 60's those laws, at least for our media became anti crime laws!

Isn't it great to have such well imformed medias

Al

Fosbery
May 13, 2007, 06:13 PM
It's true. The first piece of gun control* in the UK was the 1920 Firearms Act. It required that for every firearm (except shotguns) purchased, the purchaser must obtain a hand-written note from the Post Office and have his details taken. This did not restrict ownership at all, but was used to keep tabs on who had guns. The idea was that if any union memers started stockpiling large quantities of rifles, it would be known that a communist revolution was imminient.

*Actually there was an act prior to this which restricted the carrying (not posession) of small (not ordinary size) pistols (not any other types of firearm) to those who were not "drunken or insane". The bill only passed by a few votes, demonstrating the jealousy with which Englishmen guarded their right to arms in years past.

beaucoup ammo
May 13, 2007, 06:39 PM
"Amazing how vague the story is.
"A source" says that this kinda thing happens in America.
Also, if it were good journalism they would have stated more details on how the home invasion occured, through door/window etc."

Hold that thought and consider how a story that originates in your town would be perceived if the "journalist" writing it was in India.


City reporting outsourced to India
AP[ FRIDAY, MAY 11, 2007 02:00:35 PM]



"PASADENA, Calif.: The job posting was a head-scratcher: "We seek a newspaper journalist based in India to report on the city government and political scene of Pasadena, California, USA."

A reporter half a world away covering local street-light contracts and sewer repairs? A reporter who has never gotten closer to Pasadena than the telecast of the Rose Bowl parade?

Outsourcing first claimed manufacturing jobs, then hit services such as technical support, airline reservations and tax preparation. Now comes the next frontier: local journalism.

James Macpherson, editor and publisher of the two-year-old Web site pasadenanow.com, acknowledged it sounds strange to have journalists in India cover news in this wealthy city just outside Los Angeles.

But he said it can be done from afar now that weekly Pasadena City Council meetings can be watched over the Internet. And he said the idea makes business sense because of India's lower labor costs.

"I think it could be a significant way to increase the quality of journalism on the local level without the expense that is a major problem for local publications," said the 51-year-old Pasadena native. "Whether you're at a desk in Pasadena or a desk in Mumbai, you're still just a phone call or e-mail away from the interview."

The first articles, some of which will carry bylines, are slated to appear Friday."

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