Thank you Chicago Democrates


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hotpig
May 11, 2007, 01:05 AM
I'm glad the Northern Illinois voters keep these folks in office. It makes me feel safe.:rolleyes:

This bill a few days ago this bill was about child sexual exploitation. They gutted it and changed it into this stuff.



Senate OK's ban on high-capacity gun magazines
By John O'Connor
Associated Press
Advertisement


SPRINGFIELD -- With suggestions that it could help limit tragedies like April's Virginia Tech massacre, the Senate on Wednesday approved a ban on high-capacity gun magazines.

Ammunition clips holding more than 10 rounds of ammunition would be illegal under legislation that passed 31-26 and was sent to the House.

Sen. Dan Kotowski, a Park Ridge Democrat, sold the bill as one that doesn't limit the manufacture or sale of guns in a state reluctant to toughen controls on weapons despite solid Democratic control of the Legislature.

But in a legislature that has struggled for several years to ban assault rifles, Kotowski refused to concede his bill was a smaller bite of the apple.

``In this day and age, you need to limit the lethality,'' Kotowski said after the vote. ``Acknowledge the reality that there's only so much we can do. There's 300 million guns in the country.''

Kotowski said the gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting April 16 squeezed off 170 bullets in nine minutes. His weapon was a handgun with 15-round clips.

Requiring smaller magazines would force such killers to change clips more often, saving lives, he said.

``Criminals are going to get guns,'' Kotowski said. ``Why not limit the damage that they can cause?''

The bill allows the continued sale of high-capacity magazines to police and the military, exempts shooting competitions, and allows current owners of the clips to keep them.

But critics said the legislation does nothing to stop violence and would drive gun manufacturers out of the state.

``The manufacturers are sick and tired of being pushed around by a bunch of Chicago liberals,'' said Sen. Mike Jacobs, D-East Moline.

Kotowski also is sponsoring a ban on .50-caliber assault rifles which is awaiting a Senate floor vote.

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Tommygunn
May 11, 2007, 01:13 AM
Requiring smaller magazines would force such killers to change clips more often, saving lives, he said.

Has this been proven? I think not; does the author of the statement have any idea how quickly mags can be changed out?
Not to mention the V tech murderer had two guns.....
Politicians are among the dumbest critters on the planet.

js
May 11, 2007, 01:17 AM
more liberal bs... I feel sorry for gun owners in not just Chicago, but all of Illinois... Of course, if Democrats around the country have their way, we'll all be screwed.

Kacerdias
May 11, 2007, 01:20 AM
``Criminals are going to get guns,'' Kotowski said. ``Why not limit the damage that they can cause?''

Yeah, because someone who's bent on mass murder is obviously going to comply by using 10-round mags. They wouldn't want to break the law, right? :banghead:


Seriously, how does someone with such brain-dead arguments get elected?

WoofersInc
May 11, 2007, 01:25 AM
How do these people keep getting elected?:banghead: Des any one really believe this garbage will help crime rates go down?

obxned
May 11, 2007, 01:26 AM
Stupid!

hotpig
May 11, 2007, 01:27 AM
Tommygunn

Do not try to cloud issues with facts. It really confuses the politicians.

esmith
May 11, 2007, 01:27 AM
This proves liberals illogical mind scheme. Cho seung carried a walther p22 and Glock 19, the walther had 10 and from what the quote says it sounds as if they think the glock had 15. However i dont trust them because they cant seem to get the facts right that he had 2 handguns. Even if he wanted to he could have bought a 10 round mag for the glock. But I suppose if liberals cant ban guns all together then they must find ways to get around it. This person makes me sick, in fact all liberals make me sick.

daveohno
May 11, 2007, 01:31 AM
Democrats are clueless. They keep outlawing what was legal to make it illegal. Vote? I haven't voted for anyone that won in an election here except GW in years. Ryan deep sixed the Republicans and it's gotten worse ever since. My US Rep is Gutierrez, what a piece of work he is. My US Senator's are Durbin and Obama! Have you ever seen a more useless and dangerous pair than that? Not to mention that nit wit Guv. Blago. I get a headache every election day. But I keep voting against the nit wits.

bclark1
May 11, 2007, 01:41 AM
There needs to be a video showing the "time-consuming complexity" of reloading to make these people understand. Let's say for argument's sake you cut mag size by half. Buying 20 mags, instead of 10, is no problem if you have a credit card and don't care. Anyone out there can afford that if they're upset. I would be willing to bet anyone remotely proficient with a semi-auto can reload in 5 seconds. I would honestly say it's probably more like 2-3 if they've handled the weapon at all, but we'll err on the side of caution. Therefore, 20 reloads is 100 seconds. 10 reloads would have been 50 seconds. Although you doubled their reloading time, you have cost the shooter less than a minute during the event. Less than 1/9 of the shooting, in this case. That gives Superman or whoever can stop this an increased response time of 11% (giving the benefit of the doubt for a whole minute). Whether that is substantial is a good question, I would tend to say no. But even if you consider 11% substantial as a percentage, you have to understand that shooting sprees do not last that long, at least not long enough to make any fraction of the total time consequential. When you're talking about ten minutes as an eternity, whether it's 11 minutes, or 9 minutes, that time is not going to save any lives. We don't tend to recover these shooters alive. They go 'til they're low on ammo or motivation and then off themselves. That's how it is. I am pretty sure I could go to the range and put 170 rounds downrange and on a silhouette at 10 yards (not all of them terribly accurate, but on the paper) with a 6-shot revolver, perhaps even without speedloaders - you have, on average 3 1/2 seconds a shot. Cutting it to 2 seconds between shots - you are, after all, at close range - you still have nearly half of your time, well over 4 minutes, to be dumping the casings and refilling the cylinder. There is no way that limiting capacity can be seen as in any way decreasing the lethality of a spree-shooter. Short of confining the world to primitive muzzleloaders, there is no way that forcing reloads will have a substantial impact on the outcome of these sort of events. But it's not even about guns. I am pretty sure that someone could do the same with a homemade spear if they were determined. And we needn't even delve into the increased danger of explosives, which will never be regulatable so long as we have any agriculture, or industry, or even cars. What "these people" can't understand about that, I have no clue.

Guy B. Meredith
May 11, 2007, 01:45 AM
Not to mention that the no carry rule forced everyone to just politely wait around while he reloaded. Would not have done anything during more reloads.

js
May 11, 2007, 08:31 AM
I just heard on the morning news that some idiot got on a bus in Chicago yesterday and shot a few people, killing a 16 year old kid...? This can't be good...

fletcher
May 11, 2007, 08:40 AM
``Criminals are going to get guns,'' Kotowski said.

At least they got something right...

Titan6
May 11, 2007, 08:47 AM
That proposed .50 cal ban should help fight that crime wave of gangstas knocking over liquor stores with Barrets....

Mannix
May 11, 2007, 08:56 AM
That proposed .50 cal ban should help fight that crime wave of gangstas knocking over liquor stores with Barrets....
Anyone know if ANYONE has ever been killed with a 50 cal "assault rifle" in this country? I've yet to see one documented case. The anti-gun folks seem to be getting more clueless by the day...

Titan6
May 11, 2007, 09:00 AM
It happens. Been about 15 cases nationally in the last 15 years. Including a couple of LEOs. But it sure is rare.

Dorryn
May 11, 2007, 09:09 AM
The bill allows the continued sale of high-capacity magazines to police and the military, exempts shooting competitions, and allows current owners of the clips to keep them.

I dont own any clips! But what about my magazines?

balletto
May 11, 2007, 01:00 PM
The sad part of this is not the Democrats that voted for this, it's the DuPage county supposed-Republicans that did.

azredhawk44
May 11, 2007, 01:14 PM
The bill allows the continued sale of high-capacity magazines to police and the military, exempts shooting competitions, and allows current owners of the clips to keep them.


I'm not in Illinois, but I'm curious:

If I were living in Illinois and I went out and purchased a new Springfield Armory M1A or XD and wanted to participate in shooting competitions with this rifle or handgun, would I be able to purchase 20 round magazines for the rifle or 16 round magazines for the pistol? Do I show my FOID, NRA, IPSC and CMP membership to a gun store and they sell me 16 or 20 rounders rather than 10 round mags?

How else do you include the idea of "well, since you shoot in competitions then its okay for YOU to have 20rd magazines, but home-boy Jamal over there can't have 17 round magazines for his glock..." ?

TrapperReady
May 11, 2007, 01:26 PM
Titan6 (regarding people in the US being killed with a .50 cal rifle) -


It happens. Been about 15 cases nationally in the last 15 years. Including a couple of LEOs.


Um... no.

According to a VPC press release from 2004 (http://www.vpc.org/snipercrime.htm), they list about 17 cases in which .50 caliber rifles have been "used" in crimes.

However, as usual, they are taking a very wide view of the term "used". Of the instances cited, they broke down as follows:

11 or 12 cases of .50 cal rifles being present during arrests. These primarily take the form of "Members of a group were arrested and LEO found a number of weapons, to include .50 caliber sniper-rifles. Ooohh, and to make it worse, they had ammo." :rolleyes:
1 case of brandishing.
2 cases where a .50 may have actually been fired, but didn't result in a fatality.
2 cases where a .50 was fired and there were fatalities. One of those was during the initial events of the Branch Davidian fiasco at Waco, TX.

Even in the two cases where .50 caliber rifles were fired and LEOs were killed, there is no confirmation (in the press release) that they were killed WITH a .50 caliber rifle, as other weapons were also present and used.

Deanimator
May 11, 2007, 01:30 PM
I just heard on the morning news that some idiot got on a bus in Chicago yesterday and shot a few people, killing a 16 year old kid...? This can't be good...
I simply don't believe it happened. Chicago has stringent gun controls, so it must be made up.

This can't be good...
How? Will it turn Daley and Blagojevich against gun ownership?

Will Chicago ban handguns... again?

dasmi
May 11, 2007, 01:33 PM
``Criminals are going to get guns,'' Kotowski said. ``Why not limit the damage that they can cause?''
Yes, yes they will. And if they can get the gun, what on earth makes you think they can't get a high-cap mag for it?

beaucoup ammo
May 11, 2007, 01:44 PM
Don't pile on the Democrats, or make them the fall guy, for something ALL politicians do regardless of affiliation..curry favor to win votes and dollars. Politicians, as a group, are the most corrupt people on the planet, IMO. Forget the Sopranos..just look inside the Beltway for truely organized crime. It's all about the bucks.

It's why I'm an Independent and no longer a Republican. The two (Dems and Republicans) have morphed into one large, unethical corportion.

I always thought Ned Beatty's character in "Network" said it well:"You..think in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multi-national dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, Reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!"

And that, IMO, transcends political affiliation. Money from Pro Guns, Anti Guns..just so long as they get the geet, politicians will punch emotional buttons or whatever else it takes to rake in the dough.

hotpig
May 11, 2007, 01:57 PM
The Politicians are only voting on what their constituents want. Sure their are a hand full of gun nuts in Northern Illinois but it is not enough to stop anything.

Unfortunately their are a bunch of nut jobs like me in Central and Southern Illinois that spend a lot of money trying to stop them. All that we are doing is delaying their ability to protect the good citizens of our state from gun violence.

It looks like enough money has been given or spent to stop the state wide AWB commonly know as the 50 caliber ban. Maybe the tactic has changed from a large sweeping ban to a bunch of little ones like the hi cap ban.

If you have a bunch of one liners you can get a few through at a time without causing a big fight. They require more work for the average gun nut to monitor. By dividing the state shooters you break their power.

The hi cap ban does not effect the shooters in the LE,Competition,and hunting "camps". With those gun nuts out of the way it makes it easier to pass the legislation.

Assault weapons is the same. Minus LE and the competition shooters from it and the hunters do not have a dog in this fight so there are just a few gun nuts left to oppose it.

All they have to do is keep working one side against each other until water guns in pastel colors are the only thing left in the Land of Lincoln.

Nekron
May 11, 2007, 02:07 PM
``Criminals are going to get guns,'' Kotowski said. ``Why not limit the damage that they can cause?''

Yes, yes they will. And if they can get the gun, what on earth makes you think they can't get a high-cap mag for it?

Exactly!! Thank you!

TrapperReady
May 11, 2007, 03:08 PM
Don't pile on the Democrats, or make them the fall guy


ba - I notice your profile lists San Antonio. Live in Illinois and Wisconsin for a while before you tell anyone not to pile on the Democrats. They are THE REASON we don't have any CCW in WI, and are THE REASON this kind of junk goes forward in Illinois.

Make all the generalities you want about politicians, but it is most assuredly the Democrats who are infringing on our 2nd Amendment Rights... esepcially in these two states.

When you have a Democrat SPONSOR OF A CCW BILL vote against it, because his "party" wants him to (as we've had happen in WI), don't even try to tell me that they shouldn't rightfully be a "fall guy".

romma
May 11, 2007, 03:10 PM
These people in office in Illinois are reincarnated Chinese Maoists. Why do the people there follow their lead?

Deanimator
May 11, 2007, 03:25 PM
These people in office in Illinois are reincarnated Chinese Maoists. Why do the people there follow their lead?

Because they LIKE it. It's all they've ever known, like North Koreans.

Tell a Chicagoan that the cops in your town DON'T just sit around watching drug deals happen (much less skim the proceeds) and they look at you like you've got two heads.

In case you've been in a coal mine for the last six months, do Google News searches on "Anthony Abbate", "Weems + shooting", and "police + videotape + beating". Chicago and much of Illinois is like some third world country.

Chicago, Putin's Russia without the nuclear weapons.

beaucoup ammo
May 11, 2007, 03:26 PM
True enough, Trapper. "Walk a mile in my shoes...etc." I know a little about RKBA politics in the Chicago area as I had friends (pro) who lived there before moving here.

What happened in the election to replace North Shore Republican John Porter? He represented that area near Chicago for over 20 years and was easily one of the most anti-gun Republicans in the country.

TrapperReady
May 11, 2007, 03:42 PM
ba - I'm up north (in WI), although I grew up in the Chicago area. Haven't lived in IL for the past 15 years, and I avoid it as much as possible, so I don't know specific candidates down there.

Sorry about the reply earlier, but I am so PO'ed about the Democrats in WI that I get spittle-flying mad when people say there really isn't much of a difference between the parties. That may be true to a degree in some places, but not around here.

Jeff White
May 11, 2007, 03:47 PM
It isn't a democrat/republican issue in Illinois, it's an urban v. rural issue. This measure was introduced by a Chicago democrat, but without the support of the collar county republicans it would have died. It will be Southern Illinois democrats who will defeat this in the house.

The state is more divided between Chicago and the rest of the state then at any time in my lifetime. The electric rate mess and the governor's gross receipts tax proposal are taking up all the time in the legislature. There is a good possibility Illinois is going to start defaulting on it's debt. The politicians of both parties want to have California style social programs, but Illinois' economy is in the dumpster and will stay there because of the California style social programs that already exist that we can't pay for. The next few years are going to be very interesting.

Jeff

forquidder
May 11, 2007, 04:35 PM
If I remember correctly, when the spin media was making a big deal about a persons ability to buy magazines from the internet, didn't they report that Cho had bought a bunch of 10 rounders for his Glock off the internet and those were the ones he used in his spree?
Anyone remember?
Which would make the entire premise of the high cap mag bill mute.

orionengnr
May 11, 2007, 04:55 PM
das dupple posten

orionengnr
May 11, 2007, 04:57 PM
Do not try to cloud issues with facts. It really confuses the politicians.

Ummm, no, it doesn't...mostly because they aren't listening.

My US Senator's are Durbin and Obama! Have you ever seen a more useless and dangerous pair than that?

Well, there's Kerry and Kennedy...
Boxer and Feinstein...
Schumer and Hillary? Wow, it's worse than I thought...:rolleyes:

BTW, three years ago I moved to Texas from Illinois. Illinois is a good place to be from. Far from. :)

torpid
May 11, 2007, 05:02 PM
Which would make the entire premise of the high cap mag bill mute.

I think you meant moot. ;)

Eleven Mike
May 11, 2007, 05:29 PM
Democrates is my favorite philosopher.

Blue .45
May 12, 2007, 01:30 AM
For those of you who can't understand how Ritchie Daily keeps getting elected mayor of Chicago, He owns the polling machines, He runs unopposed in almost every election. and apparently, dead people like him so much, they vote twice. In other words, if everyone in Chicago voted Republican, the Democrats would still win by a landslide. Now they have a member of their mafia in the Governor's mansion.

sctman800
May 12, 2007, 02:30 AM
tech4061, you got it allmost right, the governor is a member of their mafia, but he won't live in the Governors mansion because he won't leave Chicago. Jim.

Blue .45
May 12, 2007, 02:32 AM
tech4061, you got it allmost right, the governor is a member of their mafia, but he won't live in the Governors mansion because he won't leave Chicago. Jim.

Good point!

anotherinkling
May 12, 2007, 05:28 PM
Democrates is my favorite philosopher.
Hahaha...mine, too.

But seriously, I want to speak on behalf of all Chicagoans. Indiana, if you're listening, we'd like to offer an unconditional surrender. The City is yours. We want to be Americans like you folks!

Blue4
May 13, 2007, 02:48 AM
Somehow I can't seen to hide my trusty little .50cal assault rifle under my coat. What nonsense.

Blue4
May 13, 2007, 02:49 AM
Somehow I can't seem to hide my trusty little .50 cal assault rifle under my coat. What nonsense.

MDW GUNS
May 13, 2007, 03:41 AM
Not to mention the V tech murderer had two guns.....

And he bought 10 round magazines on E-Bay!!
They will never learn that if someone plans to kill people, he/she will find a way. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people and used a bomb made out of common household material!

Lupinus
May 13, 2007, 08:32 AM
How do these people keep getting elected?
The Romans had bread and circuses, we have welfair and food stamps

hotpig
May 13, 2007, 09:56 AM
Ding, Ding, Ding, We have a winner. The Democrates trade "staying at home checks" for votes.

stellarpod
May 13, 2007, 12:29 PM
Although it may be unfair or inaccurate to broad-brush all Dems as anti-gun and ALL Republicans as pro-2nd Amendment, it doesn't take much scrutiny to see the truth.

There are niche areas where the reverse is true, but when you look at a distillation of the basic tenants of each party - based upon historical voting records - it is clear that the Democratic Party FAR exceeds the Republicans where infringing on your gun rights are concerned.

It seems to me that, although we do have some allies on the left side of the aisle - especially after the last mid-term elections - they unfortunately do seem to be the anomaly - not the norm.

Ironically, I believe we'd all do well to employ that trite diatribe of the environmentalist: "Think globally, act locally".

In other words, we need to be aware of the Democratic Parties overall intentions as indicated by their overall voting record. We need to combat those tendencies globally. But, likewise we should not crucify those few Democrat politicians that are swimming against the current in their own party, trying to change things and supporting your right to bear arms.

My state of Oklahoma is overwhelmingly Democrat-registered, but likewise overwhelmingly votes in support of 2nd Amendment rights time after time. When I see posts like these regarding Illinois, California and others, it restores my faith in the Sooner State. :)

I do however wish you folks in Illinois all the best in this latest battle.

stellarpod

davhina
May 13, 2007, 12:52 PM
Wow,Changing clips more often saves lives?:what:

nico
May 13, 2007, 01:21 PM
Someone needs to show them this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hgdq1FBYTUE

btw, since the bill allows current owners to keep their mags, and mags haven't been made with anything marking the date of production in about 3 years, can they really enforce this if it becomes law? Or, is it going to be one of those "you have to prove your legal" type deals?

beaucoup ammo
May 13, 2007, 02:05 PM
Very well stated.

lee n. field
May 13, 2007, 02:42 PM
It hasn't passed yet.

All you P.R.o. Illinois residents, have you called your representative yet? It'll take you, what, two minutes and the cost of the call.

hotpig
May 13, 2007, 04:18 PM
I call all of them even the "pleasant" ones in the north.:rolleyes:

Autolycus
May 13, 2007, 10:20 PM
Its not like we are not trying or not calling. It is simply that they do not care.

Jeff White
May 13, 2007, 11:13 PM
Its not like we are not trying or not calling. It is simply that they do not care.

Who is your representative and what did he/she say when you called? If you are unfortunate enough to be represented by certain Chicagoland reps, you might be right.

I have taken to reminding legislators from up North that Illinois has no campaign finance laws and I will certainly work to see that he/she is defeated no matter who their opponent is.

Jeff

.cheese.
May 14, 2007, 12:57 AM
Holy moly. That logic makes sense. "Let's limit the damage by limiting magazine access"

Because it makes TOTAL sense for criminals to get illegal guns, but use legally obtained magazines. Absolutely.

I think it's time that I pop this link in my post:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vdi8kvrQBqE

*sigh*

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