Pizza deliverman shoots robbers


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LaVere
May 11, 2007, 09:03 AM
FLINT (WJRT) - (05/11/07)--A deadly shooting involving a pizza delivery man and a group of robbers isn't the first such incident for the pizza man.
The Genesee County prosecutor says the delivery man shot someone who tried to rob him in 2000. That person survived.

Governor Jennifer Granholm last year signed into law a new self-defense bill. "It used to be that if there was a way that you could escape from a situation...even if somebody came into your house and you could escape, you were supposed to try to do that. Now, the Supreme Court came down and said, if your life is in danger, imminent danger, you know, you could shoot and shoot to kill," said Genesee County Sheriff Robert Pickell.

The latest incident happened at 10 p.m. Wednesday night at the intersection of Hammerberg Road and Stoney Brook Court on Flint's southwest side.

Police say the driver tried to get out to make a delivery when one of the robbers hit him in the back of the head with a wrench.

The delivery man recovered enough to grab his gun and fired several shots, hitting one of the robbers.

He died near a street sign just feet from the front doors of some shocked neighbors.

Police are still investigating, but here's what we've learned. The pizza delivery man claims self defense and is in protective custody.

It's unclear if he'll face charges because it's simply too early in the investigation.

As for the group of robbers, police are searching for one of them. One was arrested one soon after the attack.

One woman says she doesn't blame the delivery man and wouldn't have been sorry if the other suspects had experienced the same fate.

"I'm sure he's been robbed before. And his life was just as important," said Fran Catalano.

"He was doing a civic duty delivering a pizza to somebody. And let me tell you something: That guy ought to get a medal and he should have shot the other two."

We did speak with the man who runs the Little Caesar's where the driver has worked for at least a year.

He did not speak on camera, but said off camera that his drivers only carry about $25 or $30 at a time, and safety is a top and growing concern for their drivers.

The suspects reportedly demanded money, but the delivery man pulled a handgun and killed one of the robbers, a 24-year-old man.

The case is still under investigation.


http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=local&id=5290986

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Dorryn
May 11, 2007, 09:07 AM
This has happened several times in the last few years here in Buffalo. So far, no pizza delivery guy who shot a would-be robber has been charged. I say good for them.

ScottsGT
May 11, 2007, 09:08 AM
Hot pizza and hot lead, all in one delivery. Gotta love that service, taking out a scumbag in the process. :evil:
Cannot wait to see the "Official response" from Little Caesar's.

BobMcG
May 11, 2007, 09:16 AM
Win, win.

1) Pizza deliveries will continue. :)
2) Robberies from this scumbag will not continue. :D

orionengnr
May 11, 2007, 09:19 AM
"Good Evening, Darwin's Pizza, may I take your order?"

I love a happy ending :)

helpless
May 11, 2007, 09:22 AM
I delivered pizza, I had some close calls. Didnt care for firearms back then.

pretty dangerous job.

October
May 11, 2007, 09:24 AM
Where do you learn that pizza delivery qualifies as a civic duty? :scrutiny:

Geno
May 11, 2007, 09:27 AM
The driver is in "protective custody"?! Doesn't sound to me like he needs "protecting". Sounds to me like they threw him in jail until they see if they can charge him too. What's up with that? :scrutiny:

inkhead
May 11, 2007, 09:48 AM
They did say that they were still searching for one of the suspects. From the way it was worded it made it sound as if the pizza delivery guy wanted protective custody until the other suspect was arrested. Interesting.

I still find sad that anybody had to die, obviously i would have reacted the same way. It's just sad that some individuals are so desperate for money that they would rob a pizza guy. Seriously how much money would theses thieves expect to get? $100 tops? The only people I know who would rob for such a small amount is people who have a drug addiction and need to score. Sad stuff.

romma
May 11, 2007, 09:53 AM
It's a shame.... Mr.Would-Be robber doesn't even get a chance to eat his last meal. Who orders pizza for a last meal anyhow? :evil:

High Planes Drifter
May 11, 2007, 10:06 AM
Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "What do you want on your Tombstone" doesnt it. ?

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 10:12 AM
Moronic one liners aside.....

I once delivered for Little Ceasar's. Policy was no weapons allowed (didn't stop me), not sure if it was that specific store's policy or actual corporate policy.
I had a few close calls, too, and one of the two times I've displayed a firearm to ward off an attack happened while delivering.

nra-life-member
May 11, 2007, 10:14 AM
It's great that CCW is Alive and Well!

romma
May 11, 2007, 10:28 AM
"What do you want on your Tombstone" doesnt it. ?
You know what,,, I get the joke, I am just glad that I wasn't drinking hot coffee at the time, cuz that would hurt coming out of my nose. :)

BobMcG
May 11, 2007, 10:36 AM
Moronic one liners aside.....

Care to clarify?

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamisJokey
Moronic one liners aside.....

Care to clarify?

Absolutely.
A citizen had to defend himself with deadly force. A BG lost his life. The pizza guy will likely be sued. Some BG paid for his (own) poor choices with his life. And the responses are giddy with excitement that some pizza guy got to shoot a bad guy.
Every mall ninja's wet dream.....
Isn't there a sticky in S&T about blood lust?

PS:
Was it a good shoot? Probably. Did the correct person come out on top of the situation? Absolutely.

How about showing a little more class and civility.

kellyj00
May 11, 2007, 10:59 AM
good work.
take the BG's off the streets!

NavyLCDR
May 11, 2007, 11:06 AM
So does this mean that Pizza drivers now accept tips in the form of dollar bills or .45 acp's?

SlamFire1
May 11, 2007, 11:07 AM
The Piazza man will probably loose his job. Now I do not know the policy of Caesar’s Piazza, but the general (probably universal) corporate policy is that employees are not to be armed.

This is because lawsuits effect corporate profits. Corporations only exist to create profits. If an employee wacks a robber, there might be a lawsuit against the corporation. If a robber murders an employee there is no lawsuit, and law enforcement becomes a Governmental function. Dead employees do not risk Corporate Profits, dead robbers do.

Corporations put their employees at risk in all sorts of situations instead of spending money to protect them from criminals. The typical “Stop and Rob” totally plasters up the front windows with advertising, (blocking the view from the street), and turns off the lights in the parking lot (to save money), even though it has been shown that this increases the frequency of robberies, and shooting of clerks.

welldoya
May 11, 2007, 11:16 AM
SlamFIre is correct. I guarantee you that there is a corporate policy against firearms. Corporations will put an employee out to dry in a minute to avoid a lawsuit. They have no conscience, no honor and no soul. It's all about a buck.

XLMiguel
May 11, 2007, 11:19 AM
I'm willing to bet that the thugs involved already have a pretty good criminal history. What's sad is that some people have such poor values that they're willing to rob and possibly kill over a few bucks. What's really sad is that the so called 'justice system' can't seem to deal effectively with such trash and that some poor guy who's just trying to make a living has to take out the trash himself, and that some will make excuses and blame society for the lazy scum rather than place the blame where it belongs- Good riddance to the paracites.

Notch
May 11, 2007, 11:40 AM
When is the last time you read about someone having their own firearm used against them? I cant even remember... How often do we see news about someone defending themselves with a firearm? Around once a week. So much for that myth!

romma
May 11, 2007, 11:43 AM
Every mall ninja's wet dream.....


I agree that someone losing their life is sad, and that the path of moral decay that the person chooses leads to their demiseis sad as well. I find that when a BG goes down and a Good Guy comes out on top, that celebrating with a quip or two is a tempting endeavor...

I'll admit it, I come to the Highroad to share, learn and be entertained. My taste for humor may be a little dark, but I myself am certainly no Mall Ninja...

30 cal slob
May 11, 2007, 11:49 AM
bullets bullets!














you'll only get this if you've watched a little ceasar's ad on tv.

Zundfolge
May 11, 2007, 11:59 AM
I'm not so sure he'll lose his job over this.

The Genesee County prosecutor says the delivery man shot someone who tried to rob him in 2000. That person survived.

They didn't fire him in 2000.


I got all excited when I found out that Little Caesars was a member of the NRA ... but then I found out which NRA (http://www.restaurant.org/).

I do believe that opinions of CCW packing delivery drivers is changing within the industry http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article.php?id=3250 .

SlamFire1
May 11, 2007, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE][/QUI'm not so sure he'll lose his job over this.


Quote:
The Genesee County prosecutor says the delivery man shot someone who tried to rob him in 2000. That person survived.

They didn't fire him in 2000.
OTE]

This shooting therefore further increases the Corporation's risk of losing a lawsuit. They now have an "known" Rambo, a Terminator, etc.

fast eddie
May 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
Police say the driver tried to get out to make a delivery when one of the robbers hit him in the back of the head with a wrench.
I don't think it's 'blood lust' to be gratified when predators get shot for committing assult with a deadly weapon. Hopefully the deterrent effect will reduce the odds of other innocent folks being attacked.

delta53
May 11, 2007, 12:23 PM
#1 shoot and get fired by Cesar’s
#2 get shot and get on Cesar’s dead delivers wall of fame

only 1 second to decide-------------------------------still waiting--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

General Geoff
May 11, 2007, 12:41 PM
This is because lawsuits effect corporate profits. Corporations only exist to create profits. If an employee wacks a robber, there might be a lawsuit against the corporation. If a robber murders an employee there is no lawsuit, and law enforcement becomes a Governmental function. Dead employees do not risk Corporate Profits, dead robbers do.

This needs to change. Perhaps the families of wounded/dead employees should start suing the corporations for wrongful death, because the corporation's policy prohibited said employee from carrying an effective means of self defense.

glockman19
May 11, 2007, 12:52 PM
Way back in the late 70's and early 80's I worked a local italian Restraunt and was a delivery driver. Never had or even heard of this type of robbery/assult. Of course I was a teenager. However, when working at McDonalds I was robbed at gunpoint. Pre drive thru.

Desperate people will do stupid things 99% of the time. Glad to be here today.

+1 the driver did the right thing. Today we would not have tactical body armour if it weren't for a pizza delivery incident.

Trebor
May 11, 2007, 01:44 PM
A friend of mine was killed delivery Pizzas in Detroit a couple years ago. He always carried and even had a vest, but he got caught at the end of his shift with his vest off. He wounded one of his attackers, but died at the scene himself.

R.I.P. Fred Mager

jamesish
May 11, 2007, 01:52 PM
I work for a LE agency and I'll say it:

It makes me happy as hell to see a scumbag DOA instead of in the revolving door of the judicial system.

I don't care if it was for his next meth hit (probably) or for his 5 year old daughter with cancer.... he threatened to take someone's life over something as pathetic as money.

I don't care what your sob story is, if you threaten to take someone's life I hope you end up dead-dead-dead.

Kudos to the pizza driver, he probably saved many people from being the scum's next victims.

Nekron
May 11, 2007, 02:12 PM
From Doc2005: The driver is in "protective custody"?! Doesn't sound to me like he needs "protecting". Sounds to me like they threw him in jail until they see if they can charge him too. What's up with that?


That's just what I was thinking when I read that article!

AR-15 Rep
May 11, 2007, 03:25 PM
Looks like another score for the good guys. I just hope that people realize there has to be a provable intent or some sort of life threatening action by the bg before you open fire. That is probabley what they are waiting on in this case to ensure the shoot was justified. I basically believe this guy will be free and clear by the way the article describes the incident. This sounds like either a crime of opportunity or ambush, I tend to think it was ambush with the number of people involved rushing the car. Then there is the common sense issue, If you are driving to deliver a pizza you don't pull up in the middle of a crowd armed with potentially deadly weapons. Over confidence gets more people hurt by putting themselves into a bad situation thinking they can do it.
Anyway glad to hear another BG is off the street.

roo_ster
May 11, 2007, 03:27 PM
When good folks triumph and bad folks get their just desserts is a perfectly appropriate time to celebrate.

The inverse is also appropriate:
When good folks lose and bad folks triumph is it perfectly appropriate to mourn.

It is not blood lust. It is merely celebrating the triumph of good over evil.

Speer
May 11, 2007, 03:36 PM
Kudos to the pizza driver, he probably saved many people from being the scum's next victims.

Here, here.

obxned
May 11, 2007, 03:40 PM
Hard working guy alive and well, thug wounded or dead: where's the downside to that???

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 03:44 PM
Read the post by AR-15 Rep. Well stated observation of the post. No crazy blood lust or crappy one liners.
Hard working guy alive and well, thug wounded or dead: where's the downside to that???
There are lots of downsides. Did good triumph over evil? Yes. Its just a shame that it had to happen at all, and the poorly thought-out comments of some are on thier way to make us all look like blood thirsty mall ninjas.

jamesish
May 11, 2007, 04:35 PM
Well you know what opinions are like but...

"It's a shame that it had to happen at all..."

I disagree. Knuckleheads are going to rob people regardless. I think it's a great thing that these knuckleheads picked a target that ended up fighting back. Now we have less knuckleheads for everybody else to worry about.

Bob M.
May 11, 2007, 04:46 PM
A bad guys taking a dirt nap, and the good guy is safe. Perfect ending to this story. Excellent.

SSN Vet
May 11, 2007, 05:03 PM
This is because lawsuits effect corporate profits. Corporations only exist to create profits. If an employee wacks a robber, there might be a lawsuit against the corporation. If a robber murders an employee there is no lawsuit, and law enforcement becomes a Governmental function. Dead employees do not risk Corporate Profits, dead robbers do.

Corporations will put an employee out to dry in a minute to avoid a lawsuit. They have no conscience, no honor and no soul. It's all about a buck.

Amen to that!!!

and it's not even about a buck for the shareholder....it's about stock options and golden parachuttes for the CEO and CFO.

LaVere
May 11, 2007, 05:18 PM
Driver had previous shooting
Robbery alleged in 2000 delivery incident
FLINT
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION
Friday, May 11, 2007
By Kim Crawford
kcrawford@flintjournal.com • 810.766.6242

FLINT - A pizza deliveryman who shot and killed an alleged robber
Wednesday night also shot and wounded a man while delivering pizzas
seven years ago, according to police records.

The prior incident occurred in March 2000, when Brian Williams shot a
21-year-old man in the chest on E. Dartmouth Street.

At the time, Williams said the man was trying to rob him, and the man
that was shot declined to make a police complaint, the records say.


Flint police said Wednesday's incident remains under investigation.

"It's going to take some time to go through the evidence," Sgt. Lee Ann
Gaspar said.

Williams, who has delivered pizzas for years, was on a run when he
allegedly was robbed by men about 10 p.m. on Hammerberg Road near Stoney
Brook Court.

When one of them hit him with a wrench, Williams opened fire with his
pistol and killed Corneilus D. Gainer, 24, police said.

Williams carried the gun for his own protection and has a concealed
weapons permit.

Genesee County Prosecutor David Leyton said Williams has had previous
dangerous encounters.

"It was a very similar scenario," Leyton said about the driver. "He'd
been victimized previously."

Leyton stressed that his office will not rush to judgment on the
shooting and is working with Flint police to review the evidence.

"We want to be very careful with situations like this," he said.

Williams spent the night in the Genesee County Jail but was released
Thursday pending further investigation.

His attorney, Michael P. Manley, said Thursday he expected Williams to
be exonerated.

"He was a victim of an armed robbery ... a savage beating, I might add,
too," Manley said. "He may have been killed if he hadn't acted in
self-defense."

The other man who allegedly attacked Williams also was arrested.

The scenario Williams has faced twice is one that former pizza driver
Chris Vandecar understands all too well.

Vandecar, 32, has been on the other end of the gun.

Two years ago, Vandecar said, he was taking a pizza to a house in Flint
when he was confronted by an armed robber.

"It was a big old revolver; I think it was probably a .38," he recalled
Thursday

The suspect fired, striking him in the back and missing his spine by a
fraction of an inch. Vandecar, who now works for a Flushing auto
business, still carries the bullet in his body, he said.

That was his last day delivering pizza.

Flint police say those who deliver pizzas or drive cabs face the threat
of violence daily.

But what happened to Williams, a 49-year-old independent contractor
working for Little Caesar's, was an exception.

"On average, I would say we have a robbery of a delivery guy about every
month," said Sgt. Jeff Mabry. "Usually they get mugged; sometimes they
lose their vehicles or their pizzas. Sometimes they get hurt."

How many local pizza drivers in the area may be licensed to carry
firearms is unknown, said Genesee County Sheriff Robert J. Pickell, but
he said County Clerk Michael Carr has estimated there have been between
15,000 to 17,000 CCW permits issued and renewed by the local gun board
since the law governing such permits was liberalized five years ago.

But Pickell said it would not surprise him if more people who work in
jobs like pizza delivery or cab driving were seeking gun permits.

"I think you're going to see more of that," he said. "Flint's rated as
the third most violent in the country. Not everybody who works here went
to college and has a nice, safe job. There are people who have to make a
living delivering pizzas and driving cabs, and they have a right to
defend themselves."
Would Vandecar ever deliver pizzas again?

"No, no, no," he said.



http://www.mlive.com/news/flintjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-43/1178891403178240.xml&coll=5

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 05:24 PM
Well you know what opinions are like but...

"It's a shame that it had to happen at all..."

I disagree. Knuckleheads are going to rob people regardless. I think it's a great thing that these knuckleheads picked a target that ended up fighting back. Now we have less knuckleheads for everybody else to worry about.

You're taking my statement out of context.
The shame is that our fat, bloated government cannot do anything to prevent crime at the level its at. Its a shame that we refuse to educate our poor, so they turn to crime and drugs. Its a shame that young thugs think that they can boldy rob someone trying to earn an honest living, and even worse that they just walk up and assaulted him. It's a shame that he had to take a life, an action that should never be taken lightly. It's a shame that people on this forum make crappy jokes everytime someone has to defend themselves with deadly force against an assailant.

Leanwolf
May 11, 2007, 05:50 PM
JAMISJOCKEY - "Its a shame that we refuse to educate our poor, so they turn to crime and drugs."

You mean that poor children never have a chance to be educated??

Are poor children forbidden to go to public school??

I thought we had a gigantic public school system throughout this country upon which hundreds of billions of our taxpayers $$$, were spent. (??) A system completely controlled by the teachers and administrators of the N.E.A.

Perhaps Big Brother & Big Nanny should pass a law that states specifically "No poor child shall be forbidden to go to public school."

That should solve the problem and all the poor children will go to school, become educated, and be law abiding, productive citizens for the rest of their lives.

L.W.

jamesish
May 11, 2007, 05:55 PM
Well on that argument if we would've never started this inane and unwinnable "war against drugs" then 80% of our prison population wouldn't exist.

And there are plenty of government programs to "prevent" crime at that level. However taking part in those programs requires effort, and that is the catch. Most of the knuckleheads don't like exerting effort, especially if they can do it the easy way, *and* get the high of victimizing somebody at the same time.

It is a shame that "young thugs think they can boldy rob anybody", I will agree with that. I think those "young thugs" should have the fear of God put in them by a populace that accepts it's civic responsibility and arms themselves to defend what they have earned and their freedom and safety.

I know what you are trying to say. The only responsibility society has to punks like that is to let them know that if they do anything like that they are dead.

These knuckleheads can tell their sob stories to God, because nobody in society should give a damn what happened to them to make them do something atrocious. They had their choice.

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 05:58 PM
Don't be a dolt. The fact is that our public school system is a failure. Teachers that can't be fired. Poor neighborhoods recieve lower funding. School administrators aren't penalized for low scores. If "we" are going to do it (I mean publicly educate), it should be done right. Our public school system is a failure.

JamisJockey
May 11, 2007, 06:00 PM
Jamseish:
I fully agree that they made a choice, no matter what thier circumstances, they made a poor choice and this time they paid the piper.

Think of the amount of funding pissed away thanks to the "war on drugs". We could have the best public school system in the world.

jamesish
May 11, 2007, 06:03 PM
Trust me... when I think about the "war on drugs" it makes me sick to my stomach...

I work in LE... I don't have a statistic but the vast majority of crime is drug related. Stolen cars / robberies / stolen property / shootings.

Bearcat
May 11, 2007, 06:10 PM
I love a story with a happy ending!

--Doc

Leanwolf
May 11, 2007, 07:41 PM
JAMISHJOCKEY - "Don't be a dolt."

"Dolt" Webster's defines "dolt" as a "heavy, stupid person." Hmmm.

Apparently you were referring to me, JJ, as I questioned your idiotic statement, a typical bleeding heart liberal condemnation of "us."

JAMISJOCKEY - "Its a shame that we refuse to educate our poor, so they turn to crime and drugs."

Pure bull feces!

How many more billions upon billions of taxpayer $$$ do you want to throw into the public education system in order to "educate our poor?"

You are obviously unaware that there is personal responsibility required by not only parents, but also children, in order to make sure they go to school and become educated.

Plus, given that many teachers are not qualified to teach, are not only hampering their students' learning, and they can almost never be fired, thanks to the most powerful union in the U.S.

Plus, students can not be disciplined for anything, other than to be suspended for a few days (big deal!), so they respect no one who is supposed to be in an authority position.

If many "poor" parents don't care, and students don't care and many teachers are apathetic, and supervisors are there mainly to secure their pensions, how is the situation to be solved??

So what's your solution there, Einstein? (Other than to chastise "us.")

L.W.

sadhvacman
May 11, 2007, 07:45 PM
What the heck is a mall ninja? I've seen this used several times today. help me out.

CountGlockula
May 11, 2007, 08:02 PM
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3355/dont20worry20sir20im20from20the20internetui7.jpg

I'm going to order from Little Ceasar's and want that guy to deliver my pizza safely.

Sindawe
May 11, 2007, 08:04 PM
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0363547/19_2304_D097_00032.jpg

See the guy with the hat that says Security? He's a Mall Ninja

Mall Ninja Stories (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1670423/posts)

cassandrasdaddy
May 11, 2007, 08:12 PM
its just about throwing enough cash? then how can we explain dc which spends more per kid than fairfax or montgomery county tanking so spectacularly? or how some kids do so well in publiuc schools and some affluent kids crash and burn in private schools? to easy to rely on those tired erxcuses. might be time for accountability and responsibility.ii realize how non pc those words are but oh well

sadhvacman
May 11, 2007, 08:12 PM
can't see the pic. so a mall ninja is a security guard? Thats funny stuff.

thexrayboy
May 11, 2007, 11:31 PM
This needs to change. Perhaps the families of wounded/dead employees should start suing the corporations for wrongful death, because the corporation's policy prohibited said employee from carrying an effective means of self defense.


Great idea....chances of a lawsuit of this nature being filed, minimal. Chances of prevailing against a corp. in this type of lawsuit? One tick this side of when hell freezes over.

Corporations hide behind a wall of immunity based in the concept that they cannot be held liable for the criminal acts of a third party. Lots of high priced lawyers and fancy lobbyists work overtime to insure that this concept remains sacrosanct. Even if you could find an attorney willing to take a case where the family of a dead employee sues the employer for preventing him from possessing effective means of self defense the case would die a quick death. It's a shame and certainly not justice but thats how our legal system works. It's the finest legal system money can buy and big business has made sure they are the ones who own it.

Loucks
May 11, 2007, 11:57 PM
Mmmm. Mall ninjas. :rolleyes:

It's a fairly recent coinage, if I understand correctly. You can find more information here (http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/).

Also, on topic: I'm pleased that the driver escaped unharmed. Here's hoping that they catch the other perp ASAP.

Davo
May 12, 2007, 12:16 AM
One of the worst jobs I ever had was delivering pizza, sucked almost as much as security. But it got me through medic school.
Papa Johns was the only shop in town that would deliever to the ghetto. That put me in a few dangerous spots with no protection, and no tips either.

Harry Paget Flashman
May 12, 2007, 12:48 AM
A similar incident happened in Pensacola about 7-8 years ago. A 15 year old kid called a pizza parlor and ordered a pizza to be delivered. The guy taking the order recognized the voice and neighborhood to be delivered to and realized it might be the same guy who robbed their driver the week before. The owner calls the PD and the PD sends in an officer to deliver the pizza. When the pizza guy/LEO drives up to deliver the pizza the 15 year old shoves a sawed off shotgun in the officers face and the cop shoots him dead. Happy ending?

No. The "community" sings the praises of a poor boy who "was getting his life back together and finding Jesus", who was "only a child of 15", "...the shotgun was his grandads, wasn't loaded and didn't work anyway", and "the police gonna kill somebody over a lousy pizza and loose change?".

Fortunately the cop didn't get indicted despite the calls for it. No happy ending, but fair IMO.

AR-15 Rep
May 12, 2007, 01:15 AM
Ok, Time for me to Rant and Rave a bit about previous comments.
First, a child or children are at school approx 7 hrs a day, and if I remember correctly there are 24 hrs in a day. This leaves 17 hours for sleep, play, chores, school work, eating, and Parental Time. Notice the Capital Letters on PARENTAL TIME. The main issue is the parents teaching right from wrong. This is not an issue of coming from a school system, the school system teaches the same 2+2=4 to all, no matter where you are from. The bottom line is Parents. You can teach your child right from wrong, you can help them get better grades, you have the obligation to teach them, to pass on the knowledge you have attained. This is called parental evolution and if you don't teach them the things you have learned, and the difference from right and wrong, they may end up holding a pizza guy up for 30 bucks and wind up dead.
So lets not start in on the education system because your childs education starts at home. If they fail, then you failed to make them a better part of the world.

RCouch
May 12, 2007, 01:40 AM
About drugs and crime. Was on a Harris County (Houston) Grand Jury in 1975 and of the 375 cases we handled in 3 months, 283 were drug or alcohol related. We didn't have any answers then and I don't see any solutions that are doable being offered now and it's got to be a lot worse. People who care have got to step out vebally and at the ballot box, AND CONTINUE TO PACK THOSE FIREARMS.

The Unknown User
May 12, 2007, 05:29 AM
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38726

Old, but a very similar incident.

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